Could Argonians be the "third magicka race"?

Jitterbug

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Ohttps://reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2qvqud/do_saxhleel_argoniansshed/blivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Got me thinking so I googled it. Here's something interesting on the subject from reddit:

I see people here relating argonians to reptiles and amphibians, but I think they would really be mammals. Argonians have scaly skin, but here is a mammal that has scales, the pangolin. There are also mammals that lay eggs, like echidnas and platypuses. If you want to get really scientific, most animals', including humans', embryos have gill slits, we just grow out of them before being born. Argonians could just keep these and have gills formed. But most importantly, argonian females have breasts that are just like all of the human races, and mammals are defined by having mammary glands in female breasts.

edit: link to original post

Corellon Thromorin

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Oblivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Mammals also dont have magic and any supernatural abilities... And Nirn =/= Earth.
And ok, if they're so physically strong and resistant, then why theyre known for their guerrilla warfare and not for brute force, like orcs?

Because their culture isn't centered around brute force and a YOLO ideology. And before you use any of the past games as source for not giving defense bonuses, Gameplay != Lore. If Lore = Gameplay different genders would have different bonuses, but that would be "sexist".

Corellon Thromorin

Jitterbug wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Ohttps://reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2qvqud/do_saxhleel_argoniansshed/blivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Got me thinking so I googled it. Here's something interesting on the subject from reddit:

I see people here relating argonians to reptiles and amphibians, but I think they would really be mammals. Argonians have scaly skin, but here is a mammal that has scales, the pangolin. There are also mammals that lay eggs, like echidnas and platypuses. If you want to get really scientific, most animals', including humans', embryos have gill slits, we just grow out of them before being born. Argonians could just keep these and have gills formed. But most importantly, argonian females have breasts that are just like all of the human races, and mammals are defined by having mammary glands in female breasts.

edit: link to original post

Argonians aren't mammals because they have breasts. Argonians have breasts because they do, females don't breastfeed their hatchlings, they lick hist sap.
Argonians are actually not-lizard-not-fish-not-bird reptilian creatures with an incredible resistance to poison and faster wound healing, implying that they have a faster metabolism, in the same way that it is implied that Altmer (and maybe other elves) have a slower metabolism allowing them to live more and eat less (it's impolite to each too much in Altmer culture).
If damage mitigation bonus doesn't reflect your wounds healing faster, another option could be an extra bonus to healing that is increased by 1% for every consecutive hit you take, for a maximum of 10%. The effect would last 5 seconds (5 seconds without being hit would make the bonus go away).

LadyNalcarya

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Oblivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Mammals also dont have magic and any supernatural abilities... And Nirn =/= Earth.
And ok, if they're so physically strong and resistant, then why theyre known for their guerrilla warfare and not for brute force, like orcs?

Because their culture isn't centered around brute force and a YOLO ideology. And before you use any of the past games as source for not giving defense bonuses, Gameplay != Lore. If Lore = Gameplay different genders would have different bonuses, but that would be "sexist".

Well, since its not typical for their culture, an average argonian wouldnt be even trained to be a YOLO tanky brute type. According to your logic, racials = knowledge, not just talent, so a normal argonian wont have any tanky passives.
And if you're such a big lore fan, why your statements are based on assumptions that creatures of Nirn are the same as their real life prototypes?
Btw, in Morrowind stats were gender-specific. And they're still based on lore... And what about their in-game description I posted? Also not accurate lore-wise?

Corellon Thromorin

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Well, since its not typical for their culture, an average argonian wouldnt be even trained to be a YOLO tanky brute type.

They are biologically resistant. Their skin isn't even "skin" - they have scales, and they regenerate from wounds faster.

According to your logic, racials = knowledge, not just talent, so a normal argonian wont have any tanky passives.

There's a difference between being attuned to magicka, having a higher than average stamina or breathing underwater and having a (maybe cultural) predisposition to understand certain concepts.

And if you're such a big lore fan, why your statements are based on assumptions that creatures of Nirn are the same as their real life prototypes?

Never said that

Btw, in Morrowind stats were gender-specific. And they're still based on lore... And what about their in-game description I posted? Also not accurate lore-wise?

Racials bonuses in games are definitely a dumbed-down representation of how race works in TES.

LadyNalcarya

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Never said that

But... You just did:

They are biologically resistant. Their skin isn't even "skin" - they have scales, and they regenerate from wounds faster.

There's other "resistant" races in tes lore. Dunmers, for example, are not literally fireproof ofc, but they're better suited for Morrowind's volcanic climate than the other races.
Also, ofc, real life lizards have insane survivability. But real life big cats are much stronger than humans and tes khajiits arent. Even in books, it is never mentioned that a khajiit would be 5 times stronger than a man/mer.

There's a difference between being attuned to magicka, having a higher than average stamina or breathing underwater and having a (maybe cultural) predisposition to understand certain concepts.

But why you're assuming that an average argonian is stronger and more tanky than an orc?
Ofc, an argonian might be a yolo type brawler... And an orc can be a dwemer scientist. But racials are based on average people. Stereotypes, so to speak. And a typical argonian is not a tanky type so it wont make any sense to give them tanky passives. Survivalist/alchemist/hunter/shaman/assassin are more common archetypes amongst them.

Racials bonuses in games are definitely a dumbed-down representation of how race works in TES.

I actualy agree with this, character creation from Daggerfall would be much better than these racials. But it would be much harder to balance in mmo.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Oblivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Mammals also dont have magic and any supernatural abilities... And Nirn =/= Earth.
And ok, if they're so physically strong and resistant, then why theyre known for their guerrilla warfare and not for brute force, like orcs?

If Lore = Gameplay different genders would have different bonuses, but that would be "sexist".

Not it wouldn't, and please let that topic rest because Sithis knows we really, really don't need the typical gamer discussion of gender in this thread.

Jitterbug

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Oblivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Mammals also dont have magic and any supernatural abilities... And Nirn =/= Earth.
And ok, if they're so physically strong and resistant, then why theyre known for their guerrilla warfare and not for brute force, like orcs?

If Lore = Gameplay different genders would have different bonuses, but that would be "sexist".

Not it wouldn't, and please let that topic rest because Sithis knows we really, really don't need the typical gamer discussion of gender in this thread.

Nor mammals.
I think the discussion in itself is rather interesting and not totally off topic actually, but it would probably be beneficial to steer back to more concrete examples of passives and the discussion of them.

timothynrwb17_ESO

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Hylda69 wrote: »

However, I think the potion return on the Amphibious passive is actually not completely terrible now, and would rather have this unique utility than magicka regen. While Magicka regen benefits Magicka builds, any build and class benefits from getting more out of potions, which are usually used in emergency situations; and it is especially important for tanks who need more ways to instantly replenish stamina. Could the value of stats returned be higher, or add a decrease to the potion cooldown to make the passive potentially more useful? Absolutely. But, because it works with all classes/builds and helps in emergency situations, I think this unique bonus is worth keeping around, especially if we can get it tweaked further to make it on par with the value of other racial passives.

So, my ideal would be:

Amphibious
Return 15% of all stats on potion use [or current 8% stat return but ith 15 second reduction to potion cooldown]
Increase swim speed 50%

Argonian Resistance
+6% health and +6% Magicka
Poison/Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend
9% healing recieved and 6% healing done [or +15% healing received by itself]


EDIT: For those Argonian NBs, see my comment in Wrobel's thread about changing Catalyst passive to offer more class utility and also stack or directly complement Argonian potion passive once more.

This would be my ideal too - Argonians should be "both" magicka/stam - depends on what the drink - they have affinity for liquid. It should be scaled to approximate the benefit other races get passively.

Edit: I was one of those who rolled NB Argonian on release and the synergy between them was the motivation - a synergy I feel matches lore as well. It was powerful when used right but not overpowered. They should return to that model.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_PaulSage look at the profile of all the people that say Argonians are fine willing to bet all the money that non of them play Argonians.

Argonian racials could be better, but the Dunmer are at least one hundred and ten times more inclined to have magicka affinity than Argonians.

Elves are better with magic then Humans. Argonians are born from magic with the soul of Nirn itself we are far better mages then even High Elves.

MisterBigglesworth

How about:

• Stealthed while swimming (to kinda simulate underwater swimming)
• 90% slaughterfish damage reduction in Cyrodiil
• Slaughterfish damage doesn't take you out of stealth

Would make for some more interesting bridge fights.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

How about:

• Stealthed while swimming (to kinda simulate underwater swimming)
• 90% slaughterfish damage reduction in Cyrodiil
• Slaughterfish damage doesn't take you out of stealth

Would make for some more interesting bridge fights.

Stealthed while swimming would actually be really awesome.

Lava_Croft

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

How about:

• Stealthed while swimming (to kinda simulate underwater swimming)
• 90% slaughterfish damage reduction in Cyrodiil
• Slaughterfish damage doesn't take you out of stealth

Would make for some more interesting bridge fights.

Stealthed while swimming would actually be really awesome.

I could be mistaken but I think at some point during development Argonians indeed went into 'stealth' when entering a body of water.

Jitterbug

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

How about:

• Stealthed while swimming (to kinda simulate underwater swimming)
• 90% slaughterfish damage reduction in Cyrodiil
• Slaughterfish damage doesn't take you out of stealth

Would make for some more interesting bridge fights.

Stealthed while swimming would actually be really awesome.

I could be mistaken but I think at some point during development Argonians indeed went into 'stealth' when entering a body of water.

And while it would certainly add further to the flavor of Argonians I'm hard pressed to find any actual combat utility in the swimming passive. Even if it let us go places in Cyrodiil otherwise off limits to the general population, what I want are some passives that make a difference when we are fighting. The whole fight. Like max stat or combat stat regen, or even a crit modifier or something.

Junkogen

Jitterbug wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

How about:

• Stealthed while swimming (to kinda simulate underwater swimming)
• 90% slaughterfish damage reduction in Cyrodiil
• Slaughterfish damage doesn't take you out of stealth

Would make for some more interesting bridge fights.

Stealthed while swimming would actually be really awesome.

I could be mistaken but I think at some point during development Argonians indeed went into 'stealth' when entering a body of water.

And while it would certainly add further to the flavor of Argonians I'm hard pressed to find any actual combat utility in the swimming passive. Even if it let us go places in Cyrodiil otherwise off limits to the general population, what I want are some passives that make a difference when we are fighting. The whole fight. Like max stat or combat stat regen, or even a crit modifier or something.

Yeah, I don't understand what role Argonians are supposed to play and I'm not so sure ZOS does either. They have somewhat tanky passives, but Nords are clearly the better choice for tanks in the Ebonheart Pact. Any other role you'd take a Dunmer. Two of their passives are better than all three of an Argonian's. Between the 9% boost to magicka, 6% boost to stamina, and the fire resist, you don't really need the 7% increase to fire damage to make them a great and versatile choice. I just don't understand how ZOS made these decisions. The Argonian passives don't make sense for any build, really. I guess if you want to max out healing received, but what fun is that for a player? @Wrobel and company nerfed stamina regen while blocking because "it's not fun". Well, maxing out healing received isn't fun either. It's boring. Besides, having more magicka increases healing by virtue of stronger spells and being able to cast more of them. I just don't get it. The Argonian passives seem like a failed attempt to make them unique. While, yes, they are unique. They are uniquely bad. Think about it from a player's perspective. How fun is it to prolong quests and fights by maxing out healing received? That's just dumb.

Jitterbug

To avoid the discussion getting side tracked I have decided to post the original (actual) passives. I'm doing this from memory, but I believe it's something like this.

1) Amphibean Nonsense
10/20/30% chance when you drink a potion spawn to spawn a basket of kittens that get scared and run all over the place. Cannot occur more than every 45 seconds.

2) Amphibious
Automatically transform into an uncanny likeness of David Hasselhoff for 2/4/6 seconds whenever you are in or near a body of water. Does not work outside The Harborage.

3) Quick to Mend
Whenever you are are healed you get a 1/2/3% chance to get booted to the character selection screen to ponder your mistake and reroll a real race.

PBpsy

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_PaulSage look at the profile of all the people that say Argonians are fine willing to bet all the money that non of them play Argonians.

Argonian racials could be better, but the Dunmer are at least one hundred and ten times more inclined to have magicka affinity than Argonians.

Elves are better with magic then Humans. Argonians are born from magic with the soul of Nirn itself we are far better mages then even High Elves.

But since Argonians are rotten fish smelling savages they do not have the discipline for anything more than trivial spells. Magick Is more than race.

Jar_Ek

One of the big issues with the Argonian passives is that they are so situational compared to most other racials. Potion drinking relies on you drinking a potion, resistances rely on you being attacked by the appropriate damage types (which is also completely out of your control). The only passive that can be built around is healing received and tbh that is not really something that is easy to build around for 3 of the classes.

Now if thieves guild or dark brotherhood bring poisons then maybe that resistance racial will get better...

But generally not having situational potion based passive would be a start.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

One of the big issues with the Argonian passives is that they are so situational compared to most other racials. Potion drinking relies on you drinking a potion, resistances rely on you being attacked by the appropriate damage types (which is also completely out of your control). The only passive that can be built around is healing received and tbh that is not really something that is easy to build around for 3 of the classes.

Now if thieves guild or dark brotherhood bring poisons then maybe that resistance racial will get better...

But generally not having situational potion based passive would be a start.

The "Vision" ZoS have said they have for Argonians is a regeneration race that's found no where in the lore or live in game but that's their excuse.

joleda4ub17_ESO

BullNetch wrote: »

- 10% magicka + swim speed
- 3% stamina, magicka, and health regen
- hist sap - magicka regeneration on light and heavy attack.
- healing staff proficiency

Buff red diamond and adrenaline rush.

Red diamond - health with any light and heavy attack
Adrenaline rush - stamina with any light and heavy attack
Hist sap - magicka with any light and heavy attack


Khajit get a flat crit bonus to anything.


So it goes like this.

Magicka race:
Breton for the Covenant
High Elf for the Dominion
Argonian for the Pact

Stamina/generalist race:
Redguard for the Covenant
Bosmer for the Dominion
Dunmer for the Pact

Jack of all trades/health/tanky race:
Orc for the Covenant
Khajit for the Dominion
Nord for the Pact
Imperial for everyone

^^^^^^
A systematic method to balance races is best.

dodgehopper_ESO

Jar_Ek wrote: »

One of the big issues with the Argonian passives is that they are so situational compared to most other racials. Potion drinking relies on you drinking a potion, resistances rely on you being attacked by the appropriate damage types (which is also completely out of your control). The only passive that can be built around is healing received and tbh that is not really something that is easy to build around for 3 of the classes.

Now if thieves guild or dark brotherhood bring poisons then maybe that resistance racial will get better...

But generally not having situational potion based passive would be a start.

I just want to point out that while the resistant passives are nice, they are not hugely beneficial. I find the real problem with poison/disease is the debuff they apply, not the damage, and the damage mitigation from the racial isn't particularly compelling.

dodgehopper_ESO

joleda4ub17_ESO wrote: »

BullNetch wrote: »

- 10% magicka + swim speed
- 3% stamina, magicka, and health regen
- hist sap - magicka regeneration on light and heavy attack.
- healing staff proficiency

Buff red diamond and adrenaline rush.

Red diamond - health with any light and heavy attack
Adrenaline rush - stamina with any light and heavy attack
Hist sap - magicka with any light and heavy attack


Khajit get a flat crit bonus to anything.


So it goes like this.

Magicka race:
Breton for the Covenant
High Elf for the Dominion
Argonian for the Pact

Stamina/generalist race:
Redguard for the Covenant
Bosmer for the Dominion
Dunmer for the Pact

Jack of all trades/health/tanky race:
Orc for the Covenant
Khajit for the Dominion
Nord for the Pact
Imperial for everyone

^^^^^^
A systematic method to balance races is best.

The problem with this is that Dunmer are known to be strong mages and the most likely of the bunch to be 'the mage' race. I'm not sure the races need to be balanced with that in mind, but I would like to see Argonians get their own version of Stealthy, a Real Regeneration boost that exceeds other races (Orc and Nord I'm looking at you), and I'm fine with healing received on top of that, but I feel it should be stronger than it is.

joleda4ub17_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

One of the big issues with the Argonian passives is that they are so situational compared to most other racials. Potion drinking relies on you drinking a potion, resistances rely on you being attacked by the appropriate damage types (which is also completely out of your control). The only passive that can be built around is healing received and tbh that is not really something that is easy to build around for 3 of the classes.

Now if thieves guild or dark brotherhood bring poisons then maybe that resistance racial will get better...

But generally not having situational potion based passive would be a start.

I just want to point out that while the resistant passives are nice, they are not hugely beneficial. I find the real problem with poison/disease is the debuff they apply, not the damage, and the damage mitigation from the racial isn't particularly compelling.

The racial resistance doesn't lower or negate the debuff? The racial resistance only lowers the initial damage?

Spacemonkey

Tryxus wrote: »

Aren't they supposed to be a Stamina race in line with the Khajiit and Bosmer?

Argonians are experts in guerilla warfare, so they should have a Sneak bonus with their Swim Speem and a stamina bonus along with their poison resistance

I agree with this also.

If you look at the Elder's Scrolls Franchise - Bretons and Altmer have always been heavy magicka users indeed. Followed closely by the Dunmer, depending on the house, Telvannis are some of the heaviest magicka using cultures - I mean they almost *conjure their cities* to begin with....

The heavy 'stamina' races would normally be Orsimer, Redguard and Argonian.

The others are mixes of stamina and magicka. (Nord, Bosmer, Imperial)

And Khajiit are just weird and it entirely depends on their moon phase. They can be the noobiest as well as the master race.

Xvorg

Jitterbug wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Corellon Thromorin wrote: »

Argonians don't need magicka, stop with this nonsense.

Its not a nonsense. Have you played previous TES games?
In Morrowind and Oblivion, argonians had bonuses to Alchemy, Illusion and Mysticism.
In Skyrim, they had small bonuses to Alteration and Restoration.

Having bonuses in such skills is much more about knowledge than magickal affinity, do you even lore? It is nonsense.

Do you even lore?
"At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility."
From their Morrowind description.

Make Argonians more tanky, not more magickal.

What part of argonian lore makes you think that argonians should be tanky?

The part where they have scales, aren't "mammals" (mammals are squishy) and regenerate from wounds faster.

Mammals also dont have magic and any supernatural abilities... And Nirn =/= Earth.
And ok, if they're so physically strong and resistant, then why theyre known for their guerrilla warfare and not for brute force, like orcs?

If Lore = Gameplay different genders would have different bonuses, but that would be "sexist".

Not it wouldn't, and please let that topic rest because Sithis knows we really, really don't need the typical gamer discussion of gender in this thread.

Nor mammals.
I think the discussion in itself is rather interesting and not totally off topic actually, but it would probably be beneficial to steer back to more concrete examples of passives and the discussion of them.

Well, Nords are not "milk drinkers" so they are not mammals

xD

nordsavage

While traditionally Argonians have some minor magicka abilities like restoration, alteration and illusion they are primarily a physical and stealth race. Making them a magicka race for the Pact or because you do not like your passives due to just wanting to be one of the beast races is no reason to break lore. Dunmer are the third magicka race despite what you think as they have magicka capacity and flame talents.

Xvorg

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

One of the big issues with the Argonian passives is that they are so situational compared to most other racials. Potion drinking relies on you drinking a potion, resistances rely on you being attacked by the appropriate damage types (which is also completely out of your control). The only passive that can be built around is healing received and tbh that is not really something that is easy to build around for 3 of the classes.

Now if thieves guild or dark brotherhood bring poisons then maybe that resistance racial will get better...

But generally not having situational potion based passive would be a start.

I just want to point out that while the resistant passives are nice, they are not hugely beneficial. I find the real problem with poison/disease is the debuff they apply, not the damage, and the damage mitigation from the racial isn't particularly compelling.

The fire resitance form dunmer is useful in cyro against any flame staff user, besides any DK with fire stacked. Also it is useful against siege weapons
The cold resistance from nords is useful in cyro ahainst any frost staff user, besides any cold siege weapon
The poison and disease resistance from argonians is useful against any bow user that slots: poison arrow (and their morphs) and/or acid spray and/or lethal arrow (total 3 skills), besides the meat bag catapult (just one siege weapon)

Thhe case is that you can build a nice archer without using any poison skill, while magicka DKs are forced to slot fire and any ice staff user has at least 5 skill to use.

Now, if Zos intention is to make Saxlheel tanky, add physical resistance to poison and disease, and get rid of the 50% healing reduction in Cyrodil. A 5% better healing is just an insult

Robbmrp

How are they not considered a high magicka race currently? Is it because of the one passive Swim Speed that's pretty useless?

All of the other passives help to make a killer Templar healer or magicka DPS as you can stack damage and not worry about regen currently. With the healing passives, an Argonian Templar doesn't have to use The Ritual Mundus and can put more of their build into spell damage.

Cody

argonians used guerrilla warfare to fight off enemies and invaders, they need a sneak passive if you want it to fit with their lore, even if they are going to be magicka based

dodgehopper_ESO

Spacemonkey wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Aren't they supposed to be a Stamina race in line with the Khajiit and Bosmer?

Argonians are experts in guerilla warfare, so they should have a Sneak bonus with their Swim Speem and a stamina bonus along with their poison resistance

I agree with this also.

If you look at the Elder's Scrolls Franchise - Bretons and Altmer have always been heavy magicka users indeed. Followed closely by the Dunmer, depending on the house, Telvannis are some of the heaviest magicka using cultures - I mean they almost *conjure their cities* to begin with....

The heavy 'stamina' races would normally be Orsimer, Redguard and Argonian.

The others are mixes of stamina and magicka. (Nord, Bosmer, Imperial)

And Khajiit are just weird and it entirely depends on their moon phase. They can be the noobiest as well as the master race.

Exactly. It should be noted that quite a few Dunmer have been the Psijics, which are de facto the most powerful mages on Nirn. The Telvanni are significantly powerful quite obviously, to the point they teach things the Mages Guild isn't privy to. The Tribunal is also another very magically oriented faction, and even houses like House Hlaalu have access to powerful mages, generally in the form of the Morag Tong. House Redoran is really the only house that represents a more 'physical' stamina type tradition among the Dunmer, and it should be noted that they are among the most adamant supporters of the Tribunal.

I think your general assessment of theme is in line with what I think about the races as well.