Problem With Random Loot Drops and Bind-on-Pickup

Reorx_Holybeard

With the all the extra time yesterday nd today I was able to write down some of my thoughts on random loot drops combined with the Bind-On-Pickup mechanic in ESO. I’ve kept the statistics details light to try and not distract from the main issue but if you think there are errors in my analysis let me know.

The Short Story...
A rare random loot drop mechanic combined with Bind-on-Pickup in a large population results in a few people needing 100s (or 1000s) of more runs to obtain one item.

The Problem
Random loot drops have been a common staple in RPGs for a long time. You kill a monster and it has some chance to drop certain items. Mundane items are common while while more powerful things are more rare. In an MMO setting this random loot drop is generally a good thing when combined with a no-bind or Bind-On-Equip mechanic. You might only have a 0.001% chance to loot a “Breastplate of Excellence” on a monster kill but there are thousand of other players in the world who might have found one and can sell it to you. This makes for a healthy and useful world economy.

When random loot drop is combined with a Bind-On-Pickup mechanic, however, it makes a significant change to how easily some people are able to acquire gear. As a specific example let’s look at Monster Helm drops from Veteran Dungeons. According to a few statistics I’ve seen Monster helms have a 5-10% chance to drop per run. The random drop nature means that a few people will get one their first time, half the people with have one after 10-20 runs, most people will have one after 20-50 runs, but some won’t see any for 100 runs or more.

If we assume a population of 100,000 people doing veteran dungeon runs (an arbitrary number) then we can expect to find a few people with no Monster Helm after 100 runs with a 10% drop rate, and 200 runs with a 5% drop rate. I’m not sure what justification can be made to explain why most people can get a helm in 20 runs while a few need 100 runs or more.

Of course, it gets even worse when you consider that many of the traits the helms drop with are considered “undesirable” and you probably want a specific armor type as well. If we want to get a helm with a specific armor type with a infused or divines trait that reduces the per-run drop chance to 0.4-0.8%. If we look at a population of 100,000 we can expect some people needing an amazing 1000-2500 runs to get their “desired” helmet. Good luck with that whoever you are.

Is It a Problem?
So is this really a problem, or at least a big enough one to worry about? You could say that things like Monster Helms are meant to be rare and a challenge for people to get. The counter to that is you can make things rare/challenging without resorting to a rare random drop and Bind-on-Pickup mechanic. Also, having items drop that the people cannot or would never use (Well-Fitted trait for example) is not at all "rewarding".

You could say that powerful items like Monster Helms or Master Weapons are only meant as a reward for the capable few able to spend the time farming a specific dungeon or trial. However, you can easily use a mechanic like trophies in the Imperial City DLC to achieve a similar end and not have a random disparity in the time taken to get them. Or, more importantly, have the player’s skill and time invested be more important than the roll of a dice.

Or you could also point out that it doesn’t change the fact that everyone still has a 5-10% chance per run for a Monster Helmet and most people will get one after 20-50 runs. Only a few people will need 50-100 runs and even fewer need 100-200 runs. Of course, this doesn’t help the few poor souls who do need 100s of runs to get a helm to finally drop. I can’t think of any good explanation or justification of why most people need only a few dozen hours of time invested but some will need 100s or 1000s of hours to get one piece of gear.

Looking at What Works Better
The Telvar system introduced with the Imperial City DLC is a nice example of a simple mechanic that removes most of the issue of random disparity between players and rewards players for both their skill and time invested.

Consider two players. The first player is a “casual” player with not much time available to play and not much skill or good equipment. They can slowly acquire Telvar stones with groups and quests. The second player is an “end-game” player and can acquire Telvar stones much quicker through solo, group, and PVP play. Both players are able to acquire stones and purchase desired gear, gear that they actually want and will use, albeit at different rates, but rates dictated by the player’s skill and time invested and not a random roll of the dice.

The only issue I have with the Telvar stones mechanic is that it didn’t go far enough. It could have included all other IC sets (at a higher price) and the stones could be tradeable to open up the market for them

Another good mechanic are the Imperial City trophies. The rate at which you acquire trophies is mostly related to your skill and time invested and both the trophies and the rewarded items are Bind-on-Equip which is good for the economy. It could be improved, however, by removing a lot of the useless reward items or permitting trait changes.

Possible Fixes
Assuming we want to improve the drop system from the rare random drop with Bind-on-Pickup there are a few potential options:

• Bind-On-Equip -- Simply making the items bind on equip instead of on pickup would solve most issues. Rare items would then be available on the market and you have the choice of grinding dungeons to loot them or grinding gold to buy them. A healthy economy makes for a healthy game.
• Currency System -- We already have several currency systems (Alliance Points, Telvar Stones, IC trophies, crafting, gold) which seem to work pretty well for exactly this purpose. You can even get the best of both worlds by having some items as a random drop and purchasable.
• Increased Drop Rate -- Increasing the drop rate of Bind-On-Pickup items could help solve much of the disparity between the times it takes some people to find an item. For example, with a 50% drop rate we would expect everyone in a 100,000 population to get at least one item after 20 runs.
• Trait Change-- Letting people modify the traits of existing items would help ease the pain of finding a random item drop with a desirable trait. Such a mechanic could include a gold sink and/or a rare item (unbound of course).

You could well combine several of the above solutions for different desired effects. For example, you could make the Monster Helms Bind-On-Equip which would open the market up for them but keep Master Weapons Bind-On-Pickup and increase their drop rate.

Conclusion
The more I think about it the less I like the mechanic of rare random drops that are Bind-On-Pickup. The effect it tries to achieve (rare, powerful equipment that requires skill to get) can be better accomplished through other mechanics that have the player’s skill and time invested be more important than the roll of a dice.
Thoughts and discussion on this are welcome….I should mention that this has nothing at all to do with me not yet looting a Monster Helm I can actually use.

code65536

Another solution:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223693/zos-could-you-please-introduce-instance-bop-trading

I've lost count of the times where I would get something that another member of my dungeon group wanted, and they'd get something that I wanted. We both did the exact same content together--why can't we trade among ourselves in a limited fashion?

Reorx_Holybeard

code65536 wrote: »

Another solution:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223693/zos-could-you-please-introduce-instance-bop-trading

I've lost count of the times where I would get something that another member of my dungeon group wanted, and they'd get something that I wanted. We both did the exact same content together--why can't we trade among ourselves in a limited fashion?

That's an interesting idea and I've seen something like it in other MMOs though I can't remember where offhand (EverQuest maybe). While I'd prefer a complete move to Bind-on-Equip for most things I wouldn't mind a partial solution like this either.

Malmai

code65536 wrote: »

Another solution:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/223693/zos-could-you-please-introduce-instance-bop-trading

I've lost count of the times where I would get something that another member of my dungeon group wanted, and they'd get something that I wanted. We both did the exact same content together--why can't we trade among ourselves in a limited fashion?

They just need to look after Diablo ROS all answers are there regarding loot and exp...

Sausage

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Looking at What Works Better
The Telvar system introduced with the Imperial City DLC is a nice example of a simple mechanic that removes most of the issue of random disparity between players and rewards players for both their skill and time invested.

Consider two players. The first player is a “casual” player with not much time available to play and not much skill or good equipment. They can slowly acquire Telvar stones with groups and quests. The second player is an “end-game” player and can acquire Telvar stones much quicker through solo, group, and PVP play. Both players are able to acquire stones and purchase desired gear, gear that they actually want and will use, albeit at different rates, but rates dictated by the player’s skill and time invested and not a random roll of the dice.

The only issue I have with the Telvar stones mechanic is that it didn’t go far enough. It could have included all other IC sets (at a higher price) and the stones could be tradeable to open up the market for them

Another good mechanic are the Imperial City trophies. The rate at which you acquire trophies is mostly related to your skill and time invested and both the trophies and the rewarded items are Bind-on-Equip which is good for the economy. It could be improved, however, by removing a lot of the useless reward items or permitting trait changes.
.

Was it really success, players have complained about grind now. Just you know in Orsinium, new mats only cost 50 stones, now 100 stones, so if players know they need to get 1000 stones so they can get new set, out of nothing it becomes grind. RNG hides the "grinding" feel.

sebban

I agree 100% with this. The current system for rare BOP drops with random traits is a really bad implementation.

I have a friend that must have run veteran City of Ash at least 200 times and he still does not have Valkyns helm. Attempting to collect a full set of gear (ignoring traits) in WGT and ICP is a exercise in frustration. Just like the old sets from the first 6 VR Dungeons (Worm Cult etc). We were a group of 4 that ran those 4-8 times every day, and none of us managed to complete a set for several months. And when we got a complete set, it was the wrong set, like Worm Cult for our tank.

I've ran WGT or ICP almost daily (sometimes multiple times per day) since IC was released and I still don't have a full set of gear to show for it. And when I (finally) get a full set of what I want, I still have to keep farming and farming to get the correct traits.

ZOS, you really, really, really need to reconsider how drops and BOP works in this game!

How many runs do you think it should take a player to get the set they want? 20? 50? 100? 1000?

As it is now, farming for dropped BOP gear is futile.

Reorx_Holybeard

code65536 wrote: »

Was it really success, players have complained about grind now. Just you know in Orsinium, new mats only cost 50 stones, now 100 stones, so if players know they need to get 1000 stones so they can get new set, out of nothing it becomes grind. RNG hides the "grinding" feel.

That was actually another point I was going to make but my post was getting a bit long.

The rare random loot drop is binary: either you get one or you don't...or worse you get a drop with a bad trait that you can't use. You never know when you're going to get one or how much longer it will take.

With a currency/trophy system you get regular feedback on how close you are to a reward (I'm half-way there, I'm almost there, just another hour, etc...) which makes it feel faster. Even though, technically, the trophy system is still a random drop and may take the same amount of time (on average) to achieve a reward.

MuddledMuppet

Firstly, I completely agree with everything said here, I've had a fair few runs where I got the Maw of infernal helm/shoulders, a few guildies also wanted them (hey I know it's not the best set out there, but we'd love to have a full group of 20 or so in PvP all having them proc just for the lols:))

Several times I got repeat drops and mates got nothing, to the point they just got fed up re-doing the same content over and over, ditto other mates who never managed to get the engine guardian.

Anyhoo, anticipating there will be others here who feel the frustration, I'd like to throw out something I recently came across, and despite playing a fair while I had no idea about this.

Finesse.

I've been told (and read) that the more times a player successfully interrupts attacks, blocks at the right time, dodges the red, uses synergies etc the higher a hidden stat goes to reflect their in-game skill, and the higher this stat, the higher the chances they get the better loot.

Now this could just be coincidence, but doing the last fight in particular in a vet caverns run Ipretty much took every opportunity to do this, and as a tank I'm always charging the adds and interrupting when possible etc, and I did get a lovely shiney guardian helmet as a drop.

I'm throwing this out there in the hope that any experts could clarify this mechanic as verifiable, to hopefully ease some of the frustration others may be having in their dungeon runs etc.

sebban

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Was it really success, players have complained about grind now. Just you know in Orsinium, new mats only cost 50 stones, now 100 stones, so if players know they need to get 1000 stones so they can get new set, out of nothing it becomes grind. RNG hides the "grinding" feel.

That was actually another point I was going to make but my post was getting a bit long.

The rare random loot drop is binary: either you get one or you don't...or worse you get a drop with a bad trait that you can't use. You never know when you're going to get one or how much longer it will take.

With a currency/trophy system you get regular feedback on how close you are to a reward (I'm half-way there, I'm almost there, just another hour, etc...) which makes it feel faster. Even though, technically, the trophy system is still a random drop and may take the same amount of time (on average) to achieve a reward.

Agreed, a "throphy" or "currency" system might not be the best or most appealing solution, but at least you know that you eventually WILL get the item you want.

With the current system, since there are so many items in the loot table, too many undesirable traits and the drop chance is so low, it possible to run the same dungeon hundreds of times and never get the item you want.

Sausage

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Was it really success, players have complained about grind now. Just you know in Orsinium, new mats only cost 50 stones, now 100 stones, so if players know they need to get 1000 stones so they can get new set, out of nothing it becomes grind. RNG hides the "grinding" feel.

That was actually another point I was going to make but my post was getting a bit long.

The rare random loot drop is binary: either you get one or you don't...or worse you get a drop with a bad trait that you can't use. You never know when you're going to get one or how much longer it will take.

With a currency/trophy system you get regular feedback on how close you are to a reward (I'm half-way there, I'm almost there, just another hour, etc...) which makes it feel faster. Even though, technically, the trophy system is still a random drop and may take the same amount of time (on average) to achieve a reward.

I think RGN is good, in the end its, whiners are gonna whine, and players are gonna play. Or maybe this RNG system what we have now, needs something once you have hit that frustration wall.

Reorx_Holybeard

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Finesse.

I've been told (and read) that the more times a player successfully interrupts attacks, blocks at the right time, dodges the red, uses synergies etc the higher a hidden stat goes to reflect their in-game skill, and the higher this stat, the higher the chances they get the better loot.

Now this could just be coincidence, but doing the last fight in particular in a vet caverns run Ipretty much took every opportunity to do this, and as a tank I'm always charging the adds and interrupting when possible etc, and I did get a lovely shiney guardian helmet as a drop.

I'm throwing this out there in the hope that any experts could clarify this mechanic as verifiable, to hopefully ease some of the frustration others may be having in their dungeon runs etc.

Grats on your helm! An interesting concept but I'm sort of hoping this is not the case. As a healer I rarely need to dodge AEs, I'm almost never close enough to block/bash and in dungeons like Darkshade, particularily the Guardian fight, I'm don't get many synergy opportunities (I do make a lot, however, with shards and ultimates).

Maybe I should try standing in more AEs to dodge them on purpose and see if I get lucky...;)

sebban

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Finesse.

I've been told (and read) that the more times a player successfully interrupts attacks, blocks at the right time, dodges the red, uses synergies etc the higher a hidden stat goes to reflect their in-game skill, and the higher this stat, the higher the chances they get the better loot.

Now this could just be coincidence, but doing the last fight in particular in a vet caverns run Ipretty much took every opportunity to do this, and as a tank I'm always charging the adds and interrupting when possible etc, and I did get a lovely shiney guardian helmet as a drop.

I'm throwing this out there in the hope that any experts could clarify this mechanic as verifiable, to hopefully ease some of the frustration others may be having in their dungeon runs etc.

I'm fairly sure some sort of "finesse"-system was a concept they were considering while making the game, but it was scrapped before release.

Conquers

i very strongly agree with an item dropping that can change traits, that would be a big seller and well desired. should be a very rare drop though, from maybe all v16 dungeon mobs

currency exchange sounds good too, we sort of get that right now with daedric shackle drops and the other one. we could expand on that to bosses dropping marks that can be used to buy more undaunted gear

the BOE idea from rare drops, personally i do not care for

MuddledMuppet

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

Grats on your helm! An interesting concept but I'm sort of hoping this is not the case. As a healer I rarely need to dodge AEs, I'm almost never close enough to block/bash and in dungeons like Darkshade, particularily the Guardian fight, I'm don't get many synergy opportunities (I do make a lot, however, with shards and ultimates).

Maybe I should try standing in more AEs to dodge them on purpose and see if I get lucky...;)

Ty That set has massively improved my build both for PvP and tanking!

If such a system was in place, it could certainly disproportionately favour the 'front line' over healers etc, yet, at the same time, I do seem to have been disproportionately lucky compared to mates when doing vet dungeons, maybe me constantly being in the front line is connected.

Of course we must be wary of the post hoc ergo proctor hoc fallacy, and @sebban above could very well be right.

Best luck in future tho

FizzOnly

A game is supposed to be fun,right?Well since IC release i get more and more frustated because of this BoP System.I did over 300 WGT runs so far and as a healer i really dont care about the tank sets,i just want Spellpower cure but sadly i got one part of it.Well Fitted ofc.Cant count the times one group member got a part i wanted and i was close to punching my Screen.I know ZoS wants to keep them BoP in any way to "force" people to either buy the DLCs or get ESO +,but trading setpieces from these DLC Dungeons or a way to change the traits would be really nice.

Reorx_Holybeard

FizzOnly wrote: »

A game is supposed to be fun,right?Well since IC release i get more and more frustated because of this BoP System.I did over 300 WGT runs so far and as a healer i really dont care about the tank sets,i just want Spellpower cure but sadly i got one part of it.Well Fitted ofc.Cant count the times one group member got a part i wanted and i was close to punching my Screen.I know ZoS wants to keep them BoP in any way to "force" people to either buy the DLCs or get ESO +,but trading setpieces from these DLC Dungeons or a way to change the traits would be really nice.

Yes, being "rewarded" with items you can't use and only vendor or deconstruct is very frustrating.

MrBeatDown

They should implement something more on the lines of what Diablo 3 has, So that you can trade the item you found with the players in the group you just did the content with. I dont have a healer, But i got all 7 pieces of Spell power cure... I also do not have a desire to use this set to make a healer. What i would like to have though, i never get. I think i got at least 5 pieces of most of the sets in V WGT and still have yet to get the "Pieces" that i would prefer. Would have been nice to trade these undesirable pieces for the ones my Core group members i run with find that they dont want or need. I already have 2 Heavy Divines, 1 Light Divines, and 1 Medium Divines Molag Keena helms. I wish that i had 5 pieces of the sets that i wanted so i could never go into that grind dungeon again. We still have to V ICP a bunch of times on top of this. Im just saving the Collars untill i can open the Vault/chest 10 times in a row to see what happens...... Hopefully i can call that quits afterwords also as i already have my Light Divines Lord Warden helm....

FizzOnly

MrBeatDown wrote: »

They should implement something more on the lines of what Diablo 3 has, So that you can trade the item you found with the players in the group you just did the content with. .....

This,this so much

sebban

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Any chance we can get any feedback from ZOS on this?

Are you happy with the current system where players might have to do the same dungeons hundreds of times to get the gear they want? Maybe it needs a few tweaks?

Are you considering some other system other than rare drop BOP?

I assume the reason the items are BOP is to make sure people who have not bought the DLC will not be able to get the items? Maybe you can come up with some other solution?

FizzOnly

its not only the fact that we have to grind those dungeons over and over again,its the fact that i only have several people im doing wgt with.Our group doesnt want first timers because it just takes to much time to introduce them and it slows our grind.

Dont get me wrong I like to do the other vet Dungeons with first timers ,let them know everything about those Dungeons,help them Improve with their builds and skills but not WGT until I have those sets i want.Cant count the times we kicked DDs or Tanks just because they had not enough DPS(even it was ok but just not the kind of max dps thats possible) or didnt know some mechanics(Flame Atro).BoP kinda made me the Person i didnt want to become."Oh no achiv? no inv!""Whats your DPS?Oh thats to low,cya!""What u never passed Flame Atro?well goodbye!" even its harsh,its necessary when you want to get those items because it just takes too much runs.
Sad but true

Reorx_Holybeard

sebban wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Any chance we can get any feedback from ZOS on this?

Are you happy with the current system where players might have to do the same dungeons hundreds of times to get the gear they want? Maybe it needs a few tweaks?

Are you considering some other system other than rare drop BOP?

I assume the reason the items are BOP is to make sure people who have not bought the DLC will not be able to get the items? Maybe you can come up with some other solution?

Seeing that Orsinium is out in a few days with all the set and Maelstorm items being BoP I'd guess not unfortunately. I foresee a potential issue getting Maelstorm items with the seemingly large number of items that can drop from the last chest (+70). Perhaps they didn't want to have another currency system added to the game just after IC and its currency system, one that I thought did a much better job than rare drop BoP.

Chances are they may not have ever realized the potential issue with BoP rare drops as its not completely obvious. I was even surprised a little bit after doing the math at how long it could take some people to get a drop at 5-10%, and it gets much worse the lower the drop rate. The whole rare drop/BoP has been rather a staple for MMORPGs for a while now but the one should be aware of its subtleties.

Let's see how this tagging thing works: @Sheogorath