Why the guild raids don't invite randoms?

Ghost-Shot

Alomar wrote: »

I can tell you from experience, if you really want to join "one of these guild raid groups" find one you respect and like to play with. Then follow them around like white on rice, use a good build that works with their strategies, simple observation over time can do this, and synergize well with their group and keep up during fights. If you do this right and consistently over time you'll become noticed, many of these guilds aren't actively recruiting. Yet, when they see talent right in front of their face over and over they often pick it up, we did in Havoc several times and have in Haxus now as well.

This is the most common way we pick people up as well, we wont typically invite a pug from zone chat but if you show us that you can stay on crown when you dont even have a crown and your build seems to work, you are starting off in a good place.

Recremen

It's a hugely complicated issue, but it boils down to the following: if it's a competitive guild, they are going to be very insular except when trying out new guildies, so you are extremely unlikely to get an invite. If it's a pug guild, half of them have autinvite addon (PC only, of course) and it's just a matter of finding out the phrase. Only time I've seen pug groups/pug guilds turn down randoms is when they're full or the pug is a known troublemaker. Both groups exist on different servers at different times and there's absolutely no guarantee either way, but both are completely valid ways to play with their own drawbacks and bonuses.

Jules

Guild raids are generally composed of players who are comfortable playing with one another. They know one another and are certain of each other's skill levels and knowledge. Their builds and skills generally work in synergy with one another. Guild raids are generally closed off to others to preserve this certainty.

However, I'd be willing to bet if you are open to running support skills, if you have good survivability and a friendly personality, most guilds would consider taking you on. Just need to know how to present yourself and which leaders to talk to.

JDar

Keiryan wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

I can tell you from experience, if you really want to join "one of these guild raid groups" find one you respect and like to play with. Then follow them around like white on rice, use a good build that works with their strategies, simple observation over time can do this, and synergize well with their group and keep up during fights. If you do this right and consistently over time you'll become noticed, many of these guilds aren't actively recruiting. Yet, when they see talent right in front of their face over and over they often pick it up, we did in Havoc several times and have in Haxus now as well.

best advice in the post, this is how I've found one of my favourite players in the game, the (formerly Ghey) Baron.

I pick up randoms now and again in off time just because you never know when one might turn out to be a star, but it is rare.

Other best advice I can say is to start your own group and learn how to lead yourself.. make your own core group of players. This game is severely lacking in variety and leadership and it would be nice to see more people out there. This is why I tend to go and lead other groups or train my own members for leadership roles. I think for a healthy PvP community we need to start dispersing from larger raids and create more small to medium sized guilds and more leaders need to be trained. Running in small to medium sized groups also increases the caliber of each member since they no longer rely on the other 23-48 people in their vicinity.

I run from G Baron man, I know what he will do to me if he catches me

He is a beast

thelordoffelines

Better question - why dont all the people spamming "LFG" in zone chat start their own group?

JDar

Jules wrote: »

Guild raids are generally composed of players who are comfortable playing with one another. They know one another and are certain of each other's skill levels and knowledge. Their builds and skills generally work in synergy with one another. Guild raids are generally closed off to others to preserve this certainty.

However, I'd be willing to bet if you are open to running support skills, if you have good survivability and a friendly personality, most guilds would consider taking you on. Just need to know how to present yourself and which leaders to talk to.

A lot of people in this thread are saying things like "well I don't want to change my bar for someone else, why should I?" But as you can see here in Jules' post the most important thing is you bring people in to the guild who have the right mentality: be open to running skills. Be willing to improve your [group] game. You do it because you want your teammates to live, not because those are The Rules and that's what you have to do to be in this stupid guild.

It's hard to find people like that in real life, let alone the game. Then when your guild is full of that kind of player, you don't want to bring randoms in the mix because that kind of guild is a privilege, not a right.

Earendal

Rook_Master wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great...

Havoc nearly ruined this game through their exploiting, and teaching everyone on EP how to exploit.

This game is much better off with them gone.

Where's my "lol" button?

Jules

Rook_Master wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great...

Havoc nearly ruined this game through their exploiting, and teaching everyone on EP how to exploit.

This game is much better off with them gone.

Havoc was/is a fantastic guild full of highly competitive players. These accusations of exploitation are merely the result of people getting roflstomped and salty. You should kindly check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Ghost-Shot

Rook_Master wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great...

Havoc nearly ruined this game through their exploiting, and teaching everyone on EP how to exploit.

This game is much better off with them gone.

Lol they are still here, just minus a few members and with a different name. And Havoc didn't need exploits to be great, they were just good players that synergized well together.

Jura23

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Better question - why dont all the people spamming "LFG" in zone chat start their own group?

If everybody started their group, Cyro would be full of 1-man groups.

Jura23

JDar wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Guild raids are generally composed of players who are comfortable playing with one another. They know one another and are certain of each other's skill levels and knowledge. Their builds and skills generally work in synergy with one another. Guild raids are generally closed off to others to preserve this certainty.

However, I'd be willing to bet if you are open to running support skills, if you have good survivability and a friendly personality, most guilds would consider taking you on. Just need to know how to present yourself and which leaders to talk to.

A lot of people in this thread are saying things like "well I don't want to change my bar for someone else, why should I?" But as you can see here in Jules' post the most important thing is you bring people in to the guild who have the right mentality: be open to running skills. Be willing to improve your [group] game. You do it because you want your teammates to live, not because those are The Rules and that's what you have to do to be in this stupid guild.

It's hard to find people like that in real life, let alone the game. Then when your guild is full of that kind of player, you don't want to bring randoms in the mix because that kind of guild is a privilege, not a right.

Yeah, we've already seen some interesting posts in this thread describing what the guild raids want from ppl who they would be willing to bring to their group. But I'd like if somebody could also sum up the same way things that they offer to the new member. Possible reasons why it is better to be in such group because it's not clear to all of us here.

sirston

Back when I ran groups I would have two groups; One group with Pride members who I knew who had builds that were not trash that were In teamspeak that I could relay I. Then a Pug group ran by one Pride member usually a jr raid leader or captain and I would send the pugs in first for cannon folder, So I knew what I was up against or send them off to a suicide mission to cap a keep That I knew the enemy would heavily reinforce and attack a different keep when they were distracted.
Those were the only use Pugs had in my groups. Then recruits for our main battlements were picked by who was left standing after the rest of the group was dead.

Jura23

sirston wrote: »

Back when I ran groups I would have two groups; One group with Pride members who I knew who had builds that were not trash that were In teamspeak that I could relay I. Then a Pug group ran by one Pride member usually a jr raid leader or captain and I would send the pugs in first for cannon folder, So I knew what I was up against or send them off to a suicide mission to cap a keep That I knew the enemy would heavily reinforce and attack a different keep when they were distracted.
Those were the only use Pugs had in my groups. Then recruits for our main battlements were picked by who was left standing after the rest of the group was dead.

That's seems perfectly ok if all members of the second group were aware of that tactic. If not, then it would be despicable.

Earendal

Jura23 wrote: »

Yeah, we've already seen some interesting posts in this thread describing what the guild raids want from ppl who they would be willing to bring to their group. But I'd like if somebody could also sum up the same way things that they offer to the new member. Possible reasons why it is better to be in such group because it's not clear to all of us here.

Are you tired of getting the floor mopped with your face? Do you enjoy taking keeps instead of getting wiped at the breach? Does the thought of 90% of your group members watching the other 10% siege drive you insane? Do you want to hit a keep behind enemy lines and successfully run a scroll back through enemy territory?

With a group of smart people, who you know and regularly play with, these things are possible. There is a reason that 99% of emperors/empresses are from organized guilds, and it isn't because they're all incredibly skilled 1vX solo players. For a majority of the objectives in Cyrodiil, a great deal of teamwork is required. This is compounded by the fact that you're going up against other guilds, of similar skill and organization, trying to do these same things.

Some of my best moments in-game have come from facing off against other guilds with the same goals. It adds a whole other level to the game when you know that you're going against the best of what the other factions have to offer.

This is why I choose to be in such a group.

k2blader

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Better question - why dont all the people spamming "LFG" in zone chat start their own group?

It takes a special person to lead a pug in PvP. Of all the groups I've ever been in, only a handful of folks have led very well, i.e. had clearly defined, strategic objectives and helped the group be effective and earn AP rather than get farmed.

I think the vast majority of people don't want the responsibility of trying to effectively lead a group of random people who often don't follow directions, join but then leave the group quickly if they see it's "too small" or whatever, and/or get vocally recalcitrant over various things. Much easier to say "lfg" and hope someone else is up for the responsibility (been guilty of that myself, leading pugs is not something I'm made for).

k2blader

sirston wrote: »

Back when I ran groups I would have two groups; One group with Pride members who I knew who had builds that were not trash that were In teamspeak that I could relay I. Then a Pug group ran by one Pride member usually a jr raid leader or captain and I would send the pugs in first for cannon folder, So I knew what I was up against or send them off to a suicide mission to cap a keep That I knew the enemy would heavily reinforce and attack a different keep when they were distracted.
Those were the only use Pugs had in my groups. Then recruits for our main battlements were picked by who was left standing after the rest of the group was dead.

See, this kind of thing is bad. Figures it's an EP saying it, lol.

Jura23

k2blader wrote: »

thelordoffelines wrote: »

Better question - why dont all the people spamming "LFG" in zone chat start their own group?

It takes a special person to lead a pug in PvP. Of all the groups I've ever been in, only a handful of folks have led very well, i.e. had clearly defined, strategic objectives and helped the group be effective and earn AP rather than get farmed.

I think the vast majority of people don't want the responsibility of trying to effectively lead a group of random people who often don't follow directions, join but then leave the group quickly if they see it's "too small" or whatever, and/or get vocally recalcitrant over various things. Much easier to say "lfg" and hope someone else is up for the responsibility (been guilty of that myself, leading pugs is not something I'm made for).

What I think incredibly hurts PUG groups is no ingame voice chat. Or is there one on PC? Im not aware. I played PvP in LOTRO and it was so easy to run PUG groups over there. All you had to do is toggle voice chat on and you could listen the leader right away! Sounds great to me. But here you have to download TS and connect to somebodys channel. Thats more work than most ppl are willing to do. Shame.

But Im still pretty sure I will be running random groups evnetually, I just need to get a bit more experience before doing that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

We never invite PUGs in our PvP evenings, because we're a PvE guild and whenever we go to Cyrodiil it's to have fun together. We're not experienced in PvP, we do things we way we see fit (and most experienced PvP players would facepalm at what we do), we don't care much about dying, and we're happy if we can capture a resource or a keep every now and then, but we're also happy if we don't. We don't want a PUG or anyone ranting in the chat box because we're doing rather bad.

Furthermore, we're on teamspeak and in french. The likelihood of any PUG member to have teamspeak AND to speak french is rather low. That forces me to translate everything in the chat box, which ruins MY fun.

So sorry randoms, but not with us. Just do it the other way around : first join a guild suited to your needs and level, then group with them.

Cody

Rook_Master wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great...

Havoc nearly ruined this game through their exploiting, and teaching everyone on EP how to exploit.

This game is much better off with them gone.

I remember those times. I would not say "exploiting" more like going the way of the FOTM; which back then was LA staff builds. Literally every elite player I saw back then was either rolling LA staff or perma block LA DK builds. lol. good times.

tbh I never really had a problem with them. It was another guild that I had issue with. I won't name it, but I will say that it starts with an A:) I will also say they turned my first PvP campaign into an AD dominated gate camping mess; with said guild trying to justify their actions with a plethora of excuses. That was long ago though.

Cody

sirston wrote: »

Back when I ran groups I would have two groups; One group with Pride members who I knew who had builds that were not trash that were In teamspeak that I could relay I. Then a Pug group ran by one Pride member usually a jr raid leader or captain and I would send the pugs in first for cannon folder, So I knew what I was up against or send them off to a suicide mission to cap a keep That I knew the enemy would heavily reinforce and attack a different keep when they were distracted.
Those were the only use Pugs had in my groups. Then recruits for our main battlements were picked by who was left standing after the rest of the group was dead.

Well, I will be sure to never join your group then.

Jules

Earendal wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Yeah, we've already seen some interesting posts in this thread describing what the guild raids want from ppl who they would be willing to bring to their group. But I'd like if somebody could also sum up the same way things that they offer to the new member. Possible reasons why it is better to be in such group because it's not clear to all of us here.

Are you tired of getting the floor mopped with your face? Do you enjoy taking keeps instead of getting wiped at the breach? Does the thought of 90% of your group members watching the other 10% siege drive you insane? Do you want to hit a keep behind enemy lines and successfully run a scroll back through enemy territory?

With a group of smart people, who you know and regularly play with, these things are possible. There is a reason that 99% of emperors/empresses are from organized guilds, and it isn't because they're all incredibly skilled 1vX solo players. For a majority of the objectives in Cyrodiil, a great deal of teamwork is required. This is compounded by the fact that you're going up against other guilds, of similar skill and organization, trying to do these same things.

Some of my best moments in-game have come from facing off against other guilds with the same goals. It adds a whole other level to the game when you know that you're going against the best of what the other factions have to offer.

This is why I choose to be in such a group.

Read this on my phone before I knew it was you and thought, "wow that person described that really perfectly"
Should've known haha

OtarTheMad

In my experience you have to kind of earn your spot, if a guild is in your home campaign a lot but you can't get into the group you kind of need to prove yourself to them.

I am not saying follow them around and ruin ult-bombs and stuff they have planned but try to earn your spot, call stuff out in zone (keeps under attack but transit still up), rezzing the dead also wins friends fast, if they say something in yell chat or says chat then listen and do it. Don't be afraid to solo in PvP, it's hard sometimes but you can earn respect fast.

Erudition

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

People protect their ap/h first and foremost; and next random players don't know how to play with a specific group or don't listen. I can see you are on EU so maybe the culture is different there. One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great on NA servers was outstanding leadership, you had a group of people that trust a leader, don't 2nd guess them and never lose faith in their decisions and start acting out on their own. Randoms don't have that loyalty and respect and they reduce the effectiveness of the group, even if they are talented individual players.

Nailed it.

Erudition

Alomar wrote: »

I can tell you from experience, if you really want to join "one of these guild raid groups" find one you respect and like to play with. Then follow them around like white on rice, use a good build that works with their strategies, simple observation over time can do this, and synergize well with their group and keep up during fights. If you do this right and consistently over time you'll become noticed, many of these guilds aren't actively recruiting. Yet, when they see talent right in front of their face over and over they often pick it up, we did in Havoc several times and have in Haxus now as well.

This too plus bring siege, oils and be consistently useful a f to the group you want to join (after a while you stop being a random and start being a player everyone respects).

sirston

k2blader wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

Back when I ran groups I would have two groups; One group with Pride members who I knew who had builds that were not trash that were In teamspeak that I could relay I. Then a Pug group ran by one Pride member usually a jr raid leader or captain and I would send the pugs in first for cannon folder, So I knew what I was up against or send them off to a suicide mission to cap a keep That I knew the enemy would heavily reinforce and attack a different keep when they were distracted.
Those were the only use Pugs had in my groups. Then recruits for our main battlements were picked by who was left standing after the rest of the group was dead.

See, this kind of thing is bad. Figures it's an EP saying it, lol.

How is this bad? it gives the "LFG" people in zone chat a purpose, that's all they wanted. A reason to push forward also we would teach them all the PVP tactics.

Also EP had many pugs at the time that knew joining a guild second group meant certain death; But! they could possibly added to the guilds roaster. so a Win-Win. But you should Not worry about any of this anymore since most good PVP groups left right when IC dropped or shortly after on the EP side.

Lord-Stien

I think i can speak for most PVP Guilds out there......


Leading a Pug group, and or a guild group with mostly pugs....... is like herding cats..

And when you do lead pugs...... the pugs will leave because and I quote( dude bro why r u such a *#^$%)*#&^%$)@*#$&%)*@#&$^%)*@$#&^%)*@$#&^%)*@$#&^%)@*#&^$)

No one wants to lead a bunch of potato minded herp de derps, that lets be fair.....
Bring nothing to the table.
Have no gear
No Food
No siege
No Brains
No common freaking sense
Did I mention gray matter?
Or the most Common running or riding un-stealthed to your group and giving away your location......

Sublime

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

People protect their ap/h first and foremost; and next random players don't know how to play with a specific group or don't listen. I can see you are on EU so maybe the culture is different there. One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great on NA servers was outstanding leadership, you had a group of people that trust a leader, don't 2nd guess them and never lose faith in their decisions and start acting out on their own. Randoms don't have that loyalty and respect and they reduce the effectiveness of the group, even if they are talented individual players.

I don't know much about the guilds on NA or how stuff works there. But, personally, I prefer players who question decisions, bring in their opinions, know their class/build and don't have to be thought about every change that happens to the game.

Sureshawt

Couple of reasons I know of off top of my head:

More likely to be a spy
More likely to be a leech
More to likely to not listen/contribute

CN_Daniel

Havok didn't cheat. They just understood the game better than their competition and used any advantage they could to win.

Some would call these exploits (healing through walls, proxy det'ing people on first floor while on outer ring 2nd floor, always meteor'ing where you know fall damage will occur, etc etc) but there wasn't some outside force they used to create this advantage, it was always available to everyone. Fighting them for months on end was enjoyable for me and I learned a lot, there was always a lot of respect shown between leaders and it contributed to the positive environment. Most of all I appreciated their humility.

The Daniel vs Daniel banter was priceless. Even more so their hatred of J. The hate tells Hanks would send to Taaboo were PRICELESS. Tabs would literally tab target hunt Hanks all day long with snipes. And oh how Hanks LOVED snipes hehe.


ahhh i miss them :-(

JDar

NPK Daniel wrote: »

Some would call these exploits (healing through walls, proxy det'ing people on first floor while on outer ring 2nd floor, always meteor'ing where you know fall damage will occur, etc etc)

That's exactly what they are