Why the guild raids don't invite randoms?

Minno

Jura23 wrote: »

MountainHound wrote: »

I mean as said lots before, if you are willing to join a guild and play with them constantly for a couple of days/weeks and are able to switch your build around to cater for the group instead of yourself that is awesome. 9/10 a random person from zone joining will not change the way they play and adapt.

Also you need to consider healing and other buffs, it sounds selfish but if you have a decent group of v16s with top gear, 4 healers and 12 dps, if you start to incorporate more dps into the fray say v1 who are "weaker", you will be "leeching" the heals away from the stronger v16 players damaging that groups ability to play against the other top teams. Believe it or not, this is a group's worst nightmare when randoms are among your ranks leeching heals away from the group...

I can see your point, but that's problem of game design that doesn't allow you to target heals. They certainly didn't choose to steal your heals. Everybody is punished by this mechanic.

Not to mention, you don't have to be in group to receive said heals. So the elitist agenda is all that's left; vr16 preference over all
Rather insulting to those that like to pvp only and are punished by the "you must lvl in pve or get wrecked" mentality.

Saltypretzels

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Jura23

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

newtinmpls

Jura23 wrote: »

When I'm in Cyro, I often see guild raids running around and on the same time ppl begging for invite in zone chat. And those are often also good players that are high in the ranking, but they usually won't get an invite. What's the problem? And if you are a guild raider, do you invite random ppl to your group too?

Depends on the guild. That's how I got introduced to two of mine. I was hanging in Cyrodiil, the guild members basically put out in zone chat that they were doing an activity and that anyone who wanted an invite should say so and could join. Some of the leaders were better or worse at including/instructing newbies, but it was fun to be able to "test drive" a group.

ks888

When leading, it was always my policy to invite randoms during downtime, when I didn't have the demand for group positions in guild. It's also imperative that you get Teamspeak and make it known that you have it when you are seeking an invite in zone. As a lead, I need to know I can everyone in voice comms because it makes my job a hell of alot easier knowing everyone can hear calls. Even if you don't have a mic, all I need to know is you can hear me when I'm giving directions. Usually, if a guild leader does have room, does invite you, and we have space in our guild, if we liked your performance while you were in the group, we'll probably invite you to the guild. Even if we don't have space in the guild, we'll usually remember you and pick you up in the future. We don't do this to be jerks or elitist, we do it because we need to have confidence that every member of our group is there to contribute something to the team.

ks888

*** Excuse above typos ***

Rylana

The Do's and Don't of making it into a "guild exclusive raid"

Do
- Expect to be flexible with your build and skills. What benefits the group is always more important than what benefits you.
- Expect to buy and use siege. No exceptions. Ever.
- Expect to follow instructions. ideas usually welcome in the groups I run with, but final say always lies with the raid leader.
- Be open to constructive criticism. Most of these players are by nature very elitist, and will share experiences and strats. Even if you think you are awesome you may very well have a lot more to learn than you realize.
- Have voice comms available. Those that refuse to get into TS are usually the last people anyone would ever pick up, for the obvious reasons.
- Have a machine that can run the game effectively. We all know zenimax's client code is crap and people crash, but if youre crashing every five minutes because its your machines fault, youre not really contributing anything to the group.
- Have the ability or means to support yourself. Gear, soul gems, food/drink/potions/siege. You will be expected to have decent gear. Not necessarily top of the best in slot line (wish you did) but at least well on the way.
- Be able to self survive while traveling. Have awareness of gankers and how to deal with/escape them. If you have to afk for some reason and the group moves off to another objective, it is absolutely essential you can get there without us having to go back for you.

Do Not
- Act like youre a special snowflake that has the right to refuse to run something youre asked to run. You asked to be part of the group, now be part of the group. Not having access to something is acceptable, but a rank 24+ player refusing to put a purge or rapids on is going to be frowned on, heavily.
- Get sidetracked by personal vendettas/yolo/duals/epeen. Despite many of us being elitists, nothing pisses us off more than having to rez someone that decided they wanted to 1v1 Sypher cause they heard he wuz kewl on youtube.
- Sit in stealth next to a siege line where your whole group is sieiging.... and then not siege yourself. I personally will kick you. I dont need you guarding me, I need you sieging that fricken wall down.
- Argue with the crown. Usually most raid leads will take ideas, provided its not right in the middle of action-calling, heat of the moment. Additionally do not get angry when your idea is not used - EVEN IF IT WAS THE RIGHT IDEA - us raid leads know when we screw up, believe me we do. Its kinda embarassing and lets down the whole group.
- Bring your personal drama into teamspeak. I dont want to hear your wife screaming at you, or about how bad your day was, or how much you hate the game lately, or what you did last summer. Time and place for those things, never appropriate for a raid.
- Talk so much other people cant hear your raid lead(s). This is sometimes a necessary evil for an important call out (big stack behind us look back) or something else, but a long winded diatribe on the mechanics of horse jumping while the group is wiping because they cant hear calls is not going to get you invited back to the group, ever.


In short - you want into these groups? You gotta become part of the group, another cog in a well-oiled machine. If you are a problem for the operation of that machine, you can expect the result to not be in your favor. Its like I tell everyone I run with, sometimes these 12-16 man groups (or even smaller) just arent for some people. They are too inflexible, full of themselves, unwilling to cooperate.... or just unable to keep up. It doesnt make them bad players, it makes them players I dont want dragging my group down. Just the reality of it.

That being said, someone who genuinely wants to learn, contribute, and excel... they will find their way in.

reften

I pay more attention to someone who says "Looking for a serious PvP guild" vs. someone who says "LFG". If you're in Cyrodiil a lot, constantly just typing "LFG" you're doing it wrong. Get to know people, you'll find lots of good people in this game.

Zheg

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

eliisra

Most people from zone aren't using group specs, cant follow crown, place correct siege when needed and wont come TS. That's usually why no invite to guild raids.

If that's not your playstyle, if not willing to make those sacrifices like slotting specific skills and follow the leader, be happy the raid wont invite. Wouldn't enjoy it anyway. Some 20-year old kiddo acting army man and raging in TS, is not for everyone lol.

Than there's smaller guild/friend groups and they really like to keep it that way, not inviting more players than needed. They dont care who you are, just want their own circle jerk.

Most active campaigns have a pug raid/zerg going anyway, where you can do whatever you like, while still enjoying safety in numbers. Usually enough to type some word in zone for auto invite.

Rylana

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

I read it as "i am the second coming of peyton manning, but I dont want to use your playbook, ill just throw the ball and expect you to figure out where its going"

-boggle-

Jura23

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

I never said I want to join them. I said I see ppl asking to join them. But I have to disagree with you nonetheless. When you have a group that as you say plays as a team, I still don't see how will that hurt them if they add few ppl who are running their own builds. They can still do their thing as a team, or not?

Rylana

Jura23 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

do their thing as a team

This is the exact reason we dont want them. No I in Team

Armitas

LF large group, have mic but no speakerz

ToRelax

Jura23 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

I never said I want to join them. I said I see ppl asking to join them. But I have to disagree with you nonetheless. When you have a group that as you say plays as a team, I still don't see how will that hurt them if they add few ppl who are running their own builds. They can still do their thing as a team, or not?

In case of a full raid it obviously hurts the group because someone else can't join.
In case of a smaller group they don't want a larger group most likely.

Ishammael

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

And this is why you're not in a guild group.

Pchela

I had to put away my duo/solo build for guild group builds, because I want to help my team. What can I do that benefit, accentuates and compliments my guildies builds? - that's how you work together. Fit together like puzzle pieces, work like an oiled maschine, don't be the bump that causes people to fall apart. I think about my boys and how to help them, not run around doing my own thing because it benefit me.

newtinmpls

I don't know about the whole build-changing thing. I've seen conversations about "can anyone put more heals/rapid maneuvers or such-and-so on their bar" or "hey, remember rez EVERYONE asap" but it almost sounds like you are talking about re-speccing, which I wouldn't bother to do for one group/raid.

Jura23

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

Just out of curiosity, what are these skill bars? How do they look like? I'm wondering how much that differes from "normal" bars.

Pchela

newtinmpls wrote: »

I don't know about the whole build-changing thing. I've seen conversations about "can anyone put more heals/rapid maneuvers or such-and-so on their bar" or "hey, remember rez EVERYONE asap" but it almost sounds like you are talking about re-speccing, which I wouldn't bother to do for one group/raid.

I didn't really respec, I just have many many skill points and CP, and too many armor sets depending on setting for me to use. I think I respec'd attributes once to find a happy medium for solo and group play. I am pretty alright with the solo build still, but I'd have to say he's still more suited for the group build... which is fine by me since that's where I spend most of my time anyways.

Rylana

newtinmpls wrote: »

I don't know about the whole build-changing thing. I've seen conversations about "can anyone put more heals/rapid maneuvers or such-and-so on their bar" or "hey, remember rez EVERYONE asap" but it almost sounds like you are talking about re-speccing, which I wouldn't bother to do for one group/raid.

Most people dont have to re-spec. Take surprise attack off the bar and throw on tornado.... take cloak off and put on fear. Its all interchangeable.

Do you really need flawless dawnbreaker? You should probably be running veil/bolstering.

Things like that are way more important than anything else when it comes to personal setups. Its the ones that will vehemently refuse. "My damage suffers" Yeah it does, so does the damage reduction for my goddamned team when you dont slot veil.

=D

C4rt3r_H4ll

It is usually because the server is down for maintenance

Rook_Master

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

One of the things that really made guilds like Havoc great...

Havoc nearly ruined this game through their exploiting, and teaching everyone on EP how to exploit.

This game is much better off with them gone.

newtinmpls

Also - I don't have a lot of high level characters - so I am not familiar with veil.

The character I've played the most recently (Dunmer DK) has gone up so fast (mostly playing around in IC that he is lagging way behind in skill points) - so for that character - I have very few 'swap' options.

Minno

Rylana wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

I don't know about the whole build-changing thing. I've seen conversations about "can anyone put more heals/rapid maneuvers or such-and-so on their bar" or "hey, remember rez EVERYONE asap" but it almost sounds like you are talking about re-speccing, which I wouldn't bother to do for one group/raid.

Most people dont have to re-spec. Take surprise attack off the bar and throw on tornado.... take cloak off and put on fear. Its all interchangeable.

Do you really need flawless dawnbreaker? You should probably be running veil/bolstering.

Things like that are way more important than anything else when it comes to personal setups. Its the ones that will vehemently refuse. "My damage suffers" Yeah it does, so does the damage reduction for my goddamned team when you dont slot veil.

=D

This.

It's not rocket science lol. Which ever skill benefits solo play more, swap for a group skill.
Also for role (ie if you have a few defense and healing skills but are asked to be DPS, take off heals for extra support or dps.)

CN_Daniel

It's a huge time commitment to prepare people. And it requires a lot of dedication to get good. My biggest fear is wasting time on someone I'll never see after this month.

I want to see you around for a while first.

ks888

Most guild leads are not ***, just and FYI. Most of us will not ask you to change your entire build. However, we may ask you to run certain abilities (i.e. stam builds run rapids/trops, fighting vamps? run danwbreaker - stuff like that). When you're in a group, you're playing as part of a team. I know of gankers and people with 1v X builds that know there's certain skills they may need to swap when they get in group. Also, it's not the quantity of players in your group that make you successful, it's the quality. So your 'extra blade" argument, doesn't really stand. I know groups of 8 that can wipe a zerg because they're damn good players. As a lead, show me what you have and your willingness to work for the team, and you might get an invite. Simple as that.

Rylana

Jura23 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

Just out of curiosity, what are these skill bars? How do they look like? I'm wondering how much that differes from "normal" bars.

Here is an example for all four classes (note these may not be universal, are subject to build style and group composition, and a variety of other factors)

DK (Stam Build) - Vigor, Igneous Shield, Rapid Maneuvers, Steel Tornado, Flying Blade/wreckblow == Take Flight/Standard
Temp (Mag Build) - BoL, Purge, Channel Focus, Repentance, Magelight == Nova (either morph)/Heal Ulti
NB (Stam Build) - Fear, PowerExtract, Vigor, Tornado, Flying Blade/wreckblow == Veil/Barrier
Sorc (Mag Build) - Streak, Thundering, Mines, Det, Liquid Lightning == negate/barrier

Offbars are always buffs/restostaff heals or optional personal slots. Adapted for situationals.


And expound from there. This was not my idea of the "perfect" four man, this is an example of how a group layout should look. Each skill benefits the group in some way (except for the healer, that channeled focus helps them stay alive and keeps the magicka flowing for heals) through AoE damage or group support or damage mitigation.

Jura23

Rylana wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

Being in a group like this is overrated. They make you run certain skills or you get cussed out. There is a ton of standing around and doing nothing. Get on their teamspeak and be exposed to all kinds of strange discussions.

That being said, when they are fighting they will usually win.

Good point. Personally I hate to change my build according to someone else's needs. I prefer to find ppl who will benefit from my build as it is, made by myself.

I mean, that kind of says it right there. Sounds like you prefer to run your build because it works for solo/small group play, which is fine, but you should realize it will be a big reason why you won't be invited or reinvited to guild groups. Im surprised you would want to join a guild group if you don't want to participate in the group pvp that requires largely group oriented skillbars.

Just out of curiosity, what are these skill bars? How do they look like? I'm wondering how much that differes from "normal" bars.

Here is an example for all four classes (note these may not be universal, are subject to build style and group composition, and a variety of other factors)

DK (Stam Build) - Vigor, Igneous Shield, Rapid Maneuvers, Steel Tornado, Flying Blade == Take Flight/Standard
Temp (Mag Build) - BoL, Purge, Channel Focus, Repentance, Magelight == Nova (either morph)/Heal Ulti
NB (Stam Build) - Fear, PowerExtract, Vigor, Tornado, Flying Blade == Veil/Barrier
Sorc (Mag Build) - Streak, Thundering, Mines, Det, Liquid Lightning == negate/barrier

Offbars are always buffs/restostaff heals or optional personal slots. Adapted for situationals.


And expound from there. This was not my idea of the "perfect" four man, this is an example of how a group layout should look. Each skill benefits the group in some way (except for the healer, that channeled focus helps them stay alive and keeps the magicka flowing for heals) through AoE damage or group support or damage mitigation.

Thanks. But don't you think that given we all have 2 bars for our abilities most of players will most likely have like 80% of these abilities slotted even before they consider joining a group? I don't see how that is so big deal that needs to be pointed out then.

Talcyndl

About the "team" play requirement....

Some groups strictly require every person to be running set skills and to stack on crown. Those groups will roll over most opposition.

BUT, they will sometimes struggle when they a faced with more challenging situations. They lack the ability (both skill-wise and leadership) to adjust. This was especially the case when siege was more damaging. I've run in high end groups that didn't want a player to break from the crown to attack a siege weapon. The bomb group, AoE mentality was so ingrained that any party member not within the constant healing circles was derided. The result was cases where the group was killed by a couple of fire ballistas and meatbag cats.

Other groups that are less doctrinaire may not be as potent in putting out AoE damage and wiping large (but disorganized) enemy groups. But, when the leader understands the situation, those groups can survive and win in tough situations. Plus, they are a lot more fun to run with.

Granted, the recent changes have made the AoE spamming bomb groups basically invulnerable to siege and most other counter-attack strategies. So, it makes even more sense now to limit groups to those "team" players - ie, templar healers, prox detonators and steel tornado spammers.