New tank sets are horrible

Personofsecrets

@Gilliamtherogue

Is this enough proof yet?

Timeetyo

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

commit

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

footman is trash...

go with endurance for regen

and stack on some 5 peice Armor Master, and keep Unstoppable up at all times... BOOM full damage mitigation with PLENTY of room to whip out a FULL DPS bar....

It works like a charm for me on my Dragonknight

Why would you go for regen?

Really?!

Cause they took regen away when a shield is up!

Which means you can now no longer just HOLD your shield up...

Which leads to heavy attacks and putting your shield down... in that short amount of time with your shield down, and a heavy attack going out you will recieve almost double the stam you would from just heavy attacking, if you had a high stam regen...

Footman is trash... and is no longer the staple for a successful tank no matter the build or class...

Get your character 50% damage mitigation (33,000 physical and spell resistance @ VR16) with a sword and shield on a bar, one taunt, one heal, and defensive posture, and your winning...

My issue with this - and also part of why this discussion is so difficult - is this ONLY works in fights where true max mitigation / sustain isn't a problem. If you have the freedom to weild a two hander and heavy attack then the argument we are having isn't about max mitigation tanking - its about balancing bringing in additional utility/damage and still remain "tanky" enough to fulfill your primary role.

The problem is - that isn't always the case. There are times where the fight (and group makeup) dictates that you want to be 100% as tanky as possible. When you are pushing new and challenging content (for your group), you want to err on the side of caution with a tank that is solid enough to live through the sillyness that happens and can eat extra damage for longer with no support.



My personal perspective is this: I want a tank build that can just live...forever. I want to be the last to die....all the time. Once I know a fight and know what is needed I have alternate setups that may be less survivable but bring in more damage / utility and I swap out per the fight to make it as easy as possible (down to a full dps leather set / 2h for the lol old vet dungeons).

Because of this - when discussing builds - I always look towards absolute max mitigation as beyond that it really doesn't matter as it isn't full tanking - its balancing multiple roles.

But.....since we are all looking at this from different perspectives this argument will continue to rage on.

willymchilybily

shouldnt topic read "new sets are horrible for tanks", not "new tank sets are horrible" i know there are some sets more suited to roles and classes than other and don't wish to be too pedantic but some of the sets also have application for other classes and setups.

also i see people complain a lot about devs not catering or knowing how to cater for tanks. Maybe post a set you think would be good for a tank that is not OP or abusable for other roles/classes is probably more constructive than complaining if the Devs really are struggling to produce sets of the quality you want

Timeetyo

willymchilybily wrote: »

also i see people complain a lot about devs not catering or knowing how to cater for tanks. Maybe post a set you think would be good for a tank that is not OP or abusable for other roles/classes is probably more constructive than complaining if the Devs really are struggling to produce sets of the quality you want

If I were to design a set just using 2/3/4/5 pieces that are out there currently, you could do something like this:

2/3/4 (in whatever order): stam, health, healing recieved
5: 5 piece from powerfull assault (+SP/WP buff for group when using assault ability (vigor))

Not a perfect max mitigation set but it would give things that would benefit all tanks (no wasted slots like health regen, etc) and also a clickable (and therefore controllable) buff to the party. This would make it a nice set for content like Vet WGT/ICP.


I think what the problem ultimately comes down to is that we are now 2 updates in a row of looking at the heavy armor sets and left thinking "wtf were they on? do they play tanks?" after even just a quick glance at the new sets. On the other hand, DPS and healers are each getting some sweet sets that you instantly want to acquire. I just crave a new set that I'm drooling over even if it isn't the be all and end all of tanking sets - just useful for a specific situation. I just haven't found it yet...

Personofsecrets

magic regen, magic regen, magic regen, magic regen.

hrothbern

.
very interesting discussion so far
@Personofsecrets, thanks for mentioning the addon Combat Cloud, I was looking for such a addon long time, and getting drain info by watching carefully set up fights was a hassle indeed !
@Nifty2g, thanks for the very interesting remark you made: "The less damage you take from attacks mitigates how much stamina is taken away from your resource pool". That is the first thing I will check thorougly with Combat Cloud.

In general I think it helps with "tank" discussion to state in the post what kind of class you are: DK, NB, Templar and of course Sorcerer. Most of the time it can be deduced after reading multiple comments, but still...
Similar for the role, the situation: Pledge, Trial, PVP yes or no in a group or solo duo... this all has a big effect on what is optimal.

BTW
I play a NB Siphoning tank. Double nerfed in the IC patch, Siphoning Attacks does give no longer a % return on the stats. That immediately decreased the Magicka gain tremendously: 1.5% per hit of 30k Mag is 450 Mag per hit. Now it is only 190 Mag per hit. With not enough CP I had to switch my Armor sets to Mag regeneration.

hrothbern

BuggeX wrote: »

increes the maximun mitigation to 75% (~45k)
HA is usefull aigan and this new sets doesnt sux.

very much indeed !

Bashev

A little bit of topic but do you know that the cost of blocking in light armor with jewelery glyphs for block reduce and 25% from CP is the same amount as the cost when you block in heavy with sword and board without the glyphs and CP. Both amounts are exactly 50% from 2160 ==? 1080.

paulsimonps

Timeetyo wrote: »

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

commit

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

footman is trash...

go with endurance for regen

and stack on some 5 peice Armor Master, and keep Unstoppable up at all times... BOOM full damage mitigation with PLENTY of room to whip out a FULL DPS bar....

It works like a charm for me on my Dragonknight

Why would you go for regen?

Really?!

Cause they took regen away when a shield is up!

Which means you can now no longer just HOLD your shield up...

Which leads to heavy attacks and putting your shield down... in that short amount of time with your shield down, and a heavy attack going out you will recieve almost double the stam you would from just heavy attacking, if you had a high stam regen...

Footman is trash... and is no longer the staple for a successful tank no matter the build or class...

Get your character 50% damage mitigation (33,000 physical and spell resistance @ VR16) with a sword and shield on a bar, one taunt, one heal, and defensive posture, and your winning...

My issue with this - and also part of why this discussion is so difficult - is this ONLY works in fights where true max mitigation / sustain isn't a problem. If you have the freedom to weild a two hander and heavy attack then the argument we are having isn't about max mitigation tanking - its about balancing bringing in additional utility/damage and still remain "tanky" enough to fulfill your primary role.

The problem is - that isn't always the case. There are times where the fight (and group makeup) dictates that you want to be 100% as tanky as possible. When you are pushing new and challenging content (for your group), you want to err on the side of caution with a tank that is solid enough to live through the sillyness that happens and can eat extra damage for longer with no support.



My personal perspective is this: I want a tank build that can just live...forever. I want to be the last to die....all the time. Once I know a fight and know what is needed I have alternate setups that may be less survivable but bring in more damage / utility and I swap out per the fight to make it as easy as possible (down to a full dps leather set / 2h for the lol old vet dungeons).

Because of this - when discussing builds - I always look towards absolute max mitigation as beyond that it really doesn't matter as it isn't full tanking - its balancing multiple roles.

But.....since we are all looking at this from different perspectives this argument will continue to rage on.

I think you heavily overestimate the usefulness of high mitigation, because of the diminishing returns on it it is like working with a soft cap on a stat like we had in earlier times. You could keep putting things towards it but to maximize build efficiency your points or gear would be better spent else wear. I have 81.5% mitigation on my build and I have done all content with almost no issue on survivability or actually when it came to just taking damage from enemies I had no issues, any problems I had was simply me having to learn the mechanics of boss fights better.

Steel_Brightblade

I looked at that build and found it very interesting though was concerned about the amount of negative feedback you received considering I'm on console it's difficult to test so almost have to go by what others say combined with trial and error to find something that fits me. Right now my dk tank is in a bit of limbo as he muddles through but isn't working as well as hoped, still only rank 7 but getting there, have managed most veteran pledges without too much issue

wafcatb14_ESO

Really doesn`t matter I cancelled my sub the day they announced F2P, saved my 1500 crowns we got for Beta testing their game from Launch until F2P.

Only thing I have bought in their Cash store was 1K crowns for the IC DLC. but I1ll not buy anything else, they have shown themselves to still be incompetent, They should re-hire the people they laid off the ones that actually set up their game for them,

Personofsecrets

Bashev wrote: »

A little bit of topic but do you know that the cost of blocking in light armor with jewelery glyphs for block reduce and 25% from CP is the same amount as the cost when you block in heavy with sword and board without the glyphs and CP. Both amounts are exactly 50% from 2160 ==? 1080.

That is pretty cool. I wasn't able to test 100 cp into block cost the last time I tested. Thank you for sharing.

Personofsecrets

@paulsimonps or anyone else, do you know about the armor master set that everyone has been discussing?

That is, do you know what happens when a player with 5 piece armor master, which includes their sword or board, switches bars? Assume that said player has an armor ability on bot bars.

I'm assuming that they lose all of the health that the had which is associated with the armor master health buff. This is something that should really be discussed, if it is the case, so that players can better decide if they want to use that set.

@ZOS_RichLambert , If my hunch is right, then Armor Master may just be another set to throw on the dung heap of tanking sets. If you want us to do more as tanks, then make it so that switching weapons doesn't have such faulty repercussions such as damaging a players health due to resetting passive effects or causing tanks to take lethal attacks due to the unblocked frames that switching weapons costs. Come on, give it a thought, talk it over, make tanking great again.

paulsimonps

Haven't tested it that way. But my bet is that it does remove the hp, back before IC when I ran the blessing of potentates sword and board I saw on my character screen that I lost the stam recovery when I switched ofc only for a second but when it comes to your hp like we have seen with enchants and set bonuses(stamina as well) I would bet since it for a second counts it as not being there it will remove hp.

paulsimonps

Steel_Brightblade wrote: »

I looked at that build and found it very interesting though was concerned about the amount of negative feedback you received considering I'm on console it's difficult to test so almost have to go by what others say combined with trial and error to find something that fits me. Right now my dk tank is in a bit of limbo as he muddles through but isn't working as well as hoped, still only rank 7 but getting there, have managed most veteran pledges without too much issue

I wouldn't say it has a lot of negative feedback, there were some discussions and actually one that gave me and idea on how to improve it but overall I would say it has positive feedback. Though sorry for being completely off topic.

And you will always find difficulty in earlier levels since you don't really have access to the same set ups and resource polls as a v16 with full gear. When you get up there to v16 there are plenty of good options to choose from so just keep at it

Saturn

z_aromb16_ESO wrote: »

Why are you giving us sets with resistance buffs when there's such a low hard cap? Basically, the armor master is brutal. Horrible. Worthless. Every tank I have spoken to this far is using old sets. The one I saw for Orsinium also has a resistance bonus, which is totally useless!!
Basically, you have chased off a good portion of your players, Zenimax, by making the role of tank nothing but stressful. We are still using old sets and if what I've seen from Orsinium, we will be for a while. Give us something to work better with because most tanks that are left are quitting and fast.

Actually, tanking is very easy now since they have removed the whole Overtaunt mechanic, so now you can spam taunts to your heart's desire and the 0 stam regen when blocking isn't even as big a deal like everyone thought it would be..
The only problem with the new sets is just the lack of innovation for PvE tanks, they are all centered around resistance for some odd reason. I am sure PvP tanks will rejoice over some of the new tank sets as they seem more fitting for PvP environments.
They just need to come up with something that can rival the Footman + [insert favourite crafted set here] combo and the thing is, even if they never scale up Footman gear, it will still be a lot better for PvE tanks since 12% increased block mitigation is incredibly good. I also think part of the reason a lot of people don't swap out Footman is because we can't craft jewellery yet and since most dropped tank sets don't come with rings or necklace.

MrTtheDK

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just look at how botched they made the Black Rose set after people bragged about being able to still always block while using that set.

I have news for you Eric Wrobel, we are still "just holding block" as you put it. @ZOS_RichLambert , you chose the wrong 50% to side with and you fail to address issues that would actually make tanking better. Instead you had to focus on the fake issue of stamina regeneration while blocking which nobody cared about except for some PVP DPS players who would rather have the developers weaken tanks than actually have to adapt to fighting tanks themselves. Thanks for nothing.

You can't just stop a crucial part of surviving as a tank (holding block) with a nerf, but you can make the role worse and draw my tireless ire.

You realize that tanking in 1.6 with stam regen while blocking made it possible to be doing 12k-15k aoe while tanking in pve right using deep breath, talons, burning breath? It Also created monster block knights in pvp that were very very OP. The only issue that I have seen from having the zero stam regen while tanking is the combo of a sorc tank with no templar in the group other than that I have been able to block cast in all content including AA HM. Ive noticed a trend that you feel that this has created some type of detrimental obstacle for tanks but its really not that big of an issue. Simply put you just have to know how to play your class and have good communication with your group if you are going to tank in this patch which is pretty refreshing since tanking was easy mode in 1.6.

Personofsecrets

MrTtheDK wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just look at how botched they made the Black Rose set after people bragged about being able to still always block while using that set.

I have news for you Eric Wrobel, we are still "just holding block" as you put it. @ZOS_RichLambert , you chose the wrong 50% to side with and you fail to address issues that would actually make tanking better. Instead you had to focus on the fake issue of stamina regeneration while blocking which nobody cared about except for some PVP DPS players who would rather have the developers weaken tanks than actually have to adapt to fighting tanks themselves. Thanks for nothing.

You can't just stop a crucial part of surviving as a tank (holding block) with a nerf, but you can make the role worse and draw my tireless ire.

You realize that tanking in 1.6 with stam regen while blocking made it possible to be doing 12k-15k aoe while tanking in pve right using deep breath, talons, burning breath? It Also created monster block knights in pvp that were very very OP.

And? I don't see the problem.

Personofsecrets

MrTtheDK wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just look at how botched they made the Black Rose set after people bragged about being able to still always block while using that set.

I have news for you Eric Wrobel, we are still "just holding block" as you put it. @ZOS_RichLambert , you chose the wrong 50% to side with and you fail to address issues that would actually make tanking better. Instead you had to focus on the fake issue of stamina regeneration while blocking which nobody cared about except for some PVP DPS players who would rather have the developers weaken tanks than actually have to adapt to fighting tanks themselves. Thanks for nothing.

You can't just stop a crucial part of surviving as a tank (holding block) with a nerf, but you can make the role worse and draw my tireless ire.

Ive noticed a trend that you feel that this has created some type of detrimental obstacle for tanks but its really not that big of an issue. Simply put you just have to know how to play your class and have good communication with your group if you are going to tank in this patch which is pretty refreshing since tanking was easy mode in 1.6.

I am one of the people still permanently blocking and, yes, the build required to do so is overcoming the detrimental obstacle of not having stamina regeneration. I didn't used to have to spam earthen heart abilities. Players didn't used to have to have 30k stamina. That is the new tanking meta and it sucks. Just because people can adapt and have done so doesn't mean that tanking is in a good place.

Personofsecrets

MrTtheDK wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just look at how botched they made the Black Rose set after people bragged about being able to still always block while using that set.

I have news for you Eric Wrobel, we are still "just holding block" as you put it. @ZOS_RichLambert , you chose the wrong 50% to side with and you fail to address issues that would actually make tanking better. Instead you had to focus on the fake issue of stamina regeneration while blocking which nobody cared about except for some PVP DPS players who would rather have the developers weaken tanks than actually have to adapt to fighting tanks themselves. Thanks for nothing.

You can't just stop a crucial part of surviving as a tank (holding block) with a nerf, but you can make the role worse and draw my tireless ire.

You realize that tanking in 1.6 with stam regen while blocking made it possible to be doing 12k-15k aoe while tanking in pve right using deep breath, talons, burning breath? It Also created monster block knights in pvp that were very very OP. The only issue that I have seen from having the zero stam regen while tanking is the combo of a sorc tank with no templar in the group other than that I have been able to block cast in all content including AA HM. Ive noticed a trend that you feel that this has created some type of detrimental obstacle for tanks but its really not that big of an issue. Simply put you just have to know how to play your class and have good communication with your group if you are going to tank in this patch which is pretty refreshing since tanking was easy mode in 1.6.

Also how about you add some context. I can pull 120k dps while tanking on the right pull and that isn't a good indication of where tanking is at. Please stop with the scare tactics of discussing tanks that are doing too much damage.

Personofsecrets

-

M_TeK_9

I've figured out a build where I can perma block with only 20 in stamina and the rest in health. I rarely need to use shields or cinder storm to replenish stamina. A couple shards are nice but it's not like I require them.

Im also a vampire dark elf.

This build got me passed planar boss and to molag kana until the serve just shut down on us.

BTW thanks for the irregular maintenance you pricks. We would have beaten it.