New tank sets are horrible

Personofsecrets

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Thank you Person! Now one more question if you could plox. Where is the Yarn ?

I think you can find some in old school runescape



still save your hist/foot by the way. it is useful for some things.

Personofsecrets

Rioht wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Just look at how botched they made the Black Rose set after people bragged about being able to still always block while using that set.

I have news for you Eric Wrobel, we are still "just holding block" as you put it. @ZOS_RichLambert , you chose the wrong 50% to side with and you fail to address issues that would actually make tanking better. Instead you had to focus on the fake issue of stamina regeneration while blocking which nobody cared about except for some PVP DPS players who would rather have the developers weaken tanks than actually have to adapt to fighting tanks themselves. Thanks for nothing.

You can't just stop a crucial part of surviving as a tank (holding block) with a nerf, but you can make the role worse and draw my tireless ire.

A better alternative would have been to make those changes in PVP ONLY. Wasn't relevant to pve

Well, I question it's need in PVP as well. I mean, now balance is so thrown off in PVP. This is in the sense that players gain back their resources when trying to kill someone, but players don't gain their resources when blocking those attacks. IMO this makes certain skills borderline unfair, but only because of the stamina regeneration nerf and it's dyssynergy with the cost of breaking free.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler , people already considered managing their stamina as the foundation stone of PVP play. why did you have to screw with that and make blocking horrendous?

MudcrabsRus

Because they just don't care

SeptimusDova

YARN !!!! This one saw it first Telel get back !!!!

Joy_Division

Personofsecrets wrote: »

The less damage you take from attacks mitigates how much stamina is taken away from your resource pool

@Nifty2g . I had never heard that before and it sounds sort of like when people used to talk about being able to catch Mew by carefully navigating themselves to a truck parked by the S.S. Anne. I probably have never heard of that notion before because, well, it isn't true. Unmitigated block cost is 2160 and resistances or damage mitigation% from other sources have no affect on that number, only block cost reduction.

Footman is for damage mitigation only and it isn't even that good due to diminished returns when stacking damage reduction.


Demonstration of damage mitigation not affecting block cost.

This is 100% correct and in the era of no stam return while blocking, should be a huge consideration in your decision to block or not block.

Nifty2g

@Personofsecrets try the set up I posted out, you will notice a difference in stam not dropping

i3ig_Gun

LOLOLOL

Thats funny stuff...

dodgehopper_ESO

Bhakura wrote: »

Why is this such a problem? PVE tanks already immortal with ahealer behind them? Why make them immortal..er, is that even a word? lol

This is what CC and debuffs are supposed to be for.

dodgehopper_ESO

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I think almost all of you are forgetting how block reduction and block mitigation works. Let me give a tip, stack up on block cost reduction, enchant your rings with it and use champion system block reduction, slot absorb magic on your bar (or both). The less damage you take from attacks mitigates how much stamina is taken away from your resource pool. Utilizing Footman, Absorb Magic and stacking up Block Cost Reduction is where you will start to see how to have infinite stam, especially with your Robot.
For those videos I used Footman and Histbark 5/5, I like the dodge chance cause I use even less Stamina and I don't personally like having to cast Evasion and losing a slot on my bar for it to run Armor Master.

There's your tips on how to "perma" block.

The block cost reduction enchantment are actually really bad and the champion point specifications for block cost reduction aren't much better. Long story short, after using 5 piece heavy armor and sword + board, players have a block cost of 1080 stamina/block. Last I checked, anything added after the 50% mark, except for defensive stance and it's morphs, adds in a soft cap styled diminished return way.

For example, if you have 100 champion points into block cost mitigation, the expected block cost mitigation gained would be 25% from those champion points, but the actual block cost gained ends up being only 12.5%. This makes these champion point specifications extremely inefficient as players not only have to invest more champion points to get a single point of block cost, but also get less actual mitigation, per point, after adding to that specification.

Each jewelry enchantment only will save a player 86.4 stamina per block so, in my opinion, there is a compelling reason to go with magic regeneration as an enchantment. Let's say that a player has 3 block cost enchantments, that rounds down to 259 stamina saved per block due to the enchantments. Anyone with a stamina pool of 5180 or great will get that much stamina back from a single Helping Hands activation. Let's further pretend that you are me and have 16,000 stamina though. With that stamina pool, Helping Hands will give back 800 stamina per activation. Let's also say that you have Earthen Heart ability that costs only 3000 magic. With 1500 magic regeneration, which isn't hard to achieve nor even needed, a player can cast that Earthen Heart ability every 4 seconds. That means that a player can get an extra 259 stamina, over a 4 second period, in which they block 2 attacks, if they instead pump their magic regeneration stat, a stat that doesn't subject them to terrible diminished returns, instead of their block cost mitigation stat, a stat that comes with a soft cape styled diminished return.

The less damage you take from attacks mitigates how much stamina is taken away from your resource pool

@Nifty2g . I had never heard that before and it sounds sort of like when people used to talk about being able to catch Mew by carefully navigating themselves to a truck parked by the S.S. Anne. I probably have never heard of that notion before because, well, it isn't true. Unmitigated block cost is 2160 and resistances or damage mitigation% from other sources have no affect on that number, only block cost reduction.

Footman is for damage mitigation only and it isn't even that good due to diminished returns when stacking damage reduction.


Demonstration of damage mitigation not affecting block cost.

That is a great explanation, and don't get me wrong I love DK's, but I'm still concerned about the means of other classes to get their stamina back. The whole idea of losing stamina regeneration while blocking really favors DK, even though DK is having its own problems right now. They really weren't thinking about how this would effect the four classes. Templars can regenerate stamina only as long as there is a pile of corpses around them, which is hardly a strategy for all situations. Nightblades have built in regeneration and can toggle/click a siphoning strike. Sorcerers can get away with an exchange of magicka for health+stamina in the form of a dark exchange morph. It is clear DK does have the best management for stamina in this environment (with block casting), and always has. The problem is that now that difference is a lot more meaningful.

Personofsecrets

Nifty2g wrote: »

@Personofsecrets try the set up I posted out, you will notice a difference in stam not dropping

I've used footman & histbark with block cost mitigation enchantments for along time, but only use it for the fight that require it. Sure, if you are going to be duoing, then it is a-okay for whatever you are doing.

Nifty2g

also @Personofsecrets what addon are you using to show how much stamina was drained, i want to compare, feels as if I'm losing far less stamina than you are, don't get me wrong though I'm not a tank and got advice from the best tanks in game on what to run and it was fairly simple for me, I had also heard about stamina draining / mitigation from a friend in game always thought it was true a lot of people started to talk about it (high end players)

Mantic0r3

sry didnt read everything but I agree totally

also some new sets have some nice ideas but are horribly balanced, ie imperium has a nice idea but the range is way too small... or leeching just procs to little to be of any use ( not even mentioning the small radius which makes it situational at best)

Personofsecrets

Nifty2g wrote: »

also @Personofsecrets what addon are you using to show how much stamina was drained, i want to compare, feels as if I'm losing far less stamina than you are

It is combat cloud. Once you have that add on, then in addon setting, turn on incoming resource drain. That should show you the cost of blocking automatically for you.

Your block cost is probably around 400. For my example I used 1 less block cost mitigation enchant than you probably have and defensive stance wasn't slotted.

Personofsecrets

Oh, I also only have around 60 points into the champion tree specification.

Personofsecrets

Mantic0r3 wrote: »

sry didnt read everything but I agree totally

also some new sets have some nice ideas but are horribly balanced, ie imperium has a nice idea but the range is way too small... or leeching just procs to little to be of any use ( not even mentioning the small radius which makes it situational at best)

That's too bad about those sets. I even wanted to try leeching.

@ZOS_RichLambert , can you please not add any more sets that have those mechanical limitations. Frankly, it annoying. Next time you think about set activations, think Draugr Heritage or Warlock. Thank you.

Nifty2g

@Personofsecrets

The less damage you take from attacks mitigates how much stamina is taken away from your resource pool.



See I went to the Rift found the same trolls, and used Histbark, Footman, and Absorb, with block reduction.
I drain considerably less stamina than you do. The attack was his swinging move, most of my gear is still VR14 and a piece of footman is VR13. So yes block mitigation reduces your stamina resource drain

Now going in without block mitigation absorb on my bar



Without 5pc Footman and without Absorb

paulsimonps

.

Bashev

Nifty2g wrote: »

@Personofsecrets

The less damage you take from attacks mitigates how much stamina is taken away from your resource pool.



See I went to the Rift found the same trolls, and used Histbark, Footman, and Absorb, with block reduction.
I drain considerably less stamina than you do. The attack was his swinging move, most of my gear is still VR14 and a piece of footman is VR13. So yes block mitigation reduces your stamina resource drain

Now going in without block mitigation absorb on my bar



Without 5pc Footman and without Absorb

You dont test it right. The minimum cost that can be reached is 428.
2160 basic
reduced with 25% cp is 1620
reduced with 3 glyphs 600 is 1020
reduced with 30% 1h/s 20% heavy armor and 8% skill is 58% reduction from 1020 --> 428.4 cost per block.

paulsimonps

Nifty2g wrote: »

@Personofsecrets



See I went to the Rift found the same trolls, and used Histbark, Footman, and Absorb, with block reduction.
I drain considerably less stamina than you do. The attack was his swinging move, most of my gear is still VR14 and a piece of footman is VR13. So yes block mitigation reduces your stamina resource drain

Now going in without block mitigation absorb on my bar



Without 5pc Footman and without Absorb

Yea no those numbers don't add up. First off, of course your numbers are lower without absorb magic one of its effects are reducing block cost. And did you have the same enchants on your jewelry on that last one without footman cause I can not recreate those numbers, mine is a fixed number. Even using hardened armor, ring of preservation deep slash and footman at the same times does nothing to change the cost of blocking

Nifty2g

paulsimonps wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

@Personofsecrets



See I went to the Rift found the same trolls, and used Histbark, Footman, and Absorb, with block reduction.
I drain considerably less stamina than you do. The attack was his swinging move, most of my gear is still VR14 and a piece of footman is VR13. So yes block mitigation reduces your stamina resource drain

Now going in without block mitigation absorb on my bar



Without 5pc Footman and without Absorb

Yea no those numbers don't add up. First off, of course your numbers are lower without absorb magic one of its effects are reducing block cost. And did you have the same enchants on your jewelry on that last one without footman cause I can not recreate those numbers, mine is a fixed number. Even using hardened armor, ring of preservation deep slash and footman at the same times does nothing to change the cost of blocking

Alright, I have just shown stacking up on block mitigation and block cost reduction to further my point, if you want to disagree go for it, I have just shown you the way to take the least amount of stamina from attacks (maybe, not sure I don't main a tank). These tips are from the best tanks in game with #1 spots on leaderboards who theorycraft, sadly they don't post on forums. But I honestly can't be bothered to argue about this.

The first and second screenshot is all you need to know the difference between having absorb on your bar for mitigation.

Personofsecrets

@Nifty2g , you should see that from my test as well that not only was my physical resistance different in both tests, but also that my damage mitigation (from losing 5 piece footman) was lower that way as well.

I'll post exactly what I did in my test and maybe you can try this out.

Part 1

1. Wore 5 piece footman. The neck has a physical resist enchant
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and stamina cost

Part 2

1. Wore 4 piece Footman. The neck was removed.
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and the stamina cost.

As Paul writes, absorb magic is most likely the reason for seeing the result you have seen as that skill does have two different passive effects. Your third image is more interesting, but it seems like a block cost mitigation enchantment was lost. 1 enchant gives about a 80-90 change in stamina lost and that is about the change in stamina that you saw moving from image 2 to image 3.

Nifty2g

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Nifty2g , you should see that from my test as well that I not only was my physical resistance different in both tests, but also that my damage mitigation (from losing 5 piece footman) was lower that way as well.

I'll post exactly what I did in my test and maybe you can try this out.

Part 1

1. Wore 5 piece footman. The neck has a physical resist enchant
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and stamina cost

Part 2

1. Wore 4 piece Footman. The neck was removed.
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and the stamina cost.

As Paul writes, absorb magic is most likely the reason for seeing the result you have seen as that skill does have two different passive effects. Your third image is more interesting, but it seems like a block cost mitigation enchantment was lost. 1 enchant gives about a 80-90 change in stamina lost and that is about the change in stamina that you saw moving from image 2 to image 3.

I'll say it again for the fourth(?) time?
If you want to infinitely block and be a self sustain, stack up on block mitigation and block damage mitigation. This is the set up I have gotten from one of the best tanks. It's one of the oldest set ups in the game too.
There's also a trick with Igneous and Absorb which is another reason I use it - Just read the tooltips of them both

dodgehopper_ESO

Nifty2g wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Nifty2g , you should see that from my test as well that I not only was my physical resistance different in both tests, but also that my damage mitigation (from losing 5 piece footman) was lower that way as well.

I'll post exactly what I did in my test and maybe you can try this out.

Part 1

1. Wore 5 piece footman. The neck has a physical resist enchant
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and stamina cost

Part 2

1. Wore 4 piece Footman. The neck was removed.
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and the stamina cost.

As Paul writes, absorb magic is most likely the reason for seeing the result you have seen as that skill does have two different passive effects. Your third image is more interesting, but it seems like a block cost mitigation enchantment was lost. 1 enchant gives about a 80-90 change in stamina lost and that is about the change in stamina that you saw moving from image 2 to image 3.

I'll say it again for the fourth(?) time?
If you want to infinitely block and be a self sustain, stack up on block mitigation and block damage mitigation. This is the set up I have gotten from one of the best tanks. It's one of the oldest set ups in the game too.
There's also a trick with Igneous and Absorb which is another reason I use it - Just read the tooltips of them both

Again this only works for one class. I try to keep reminding people that DK should not be the only Tank class. Oddball class uniqueness is not an explanation for dealing with such a fundamental change in tanking.

Gilliamtherogue

This is the type of stuff that makes me laugh about the age old question you heard in math class as a kid. "When will I ever use this in real life?"
Shame people who neglected furthering their knowledge are usually the ones who think they're always right. If we're having a hard time using things like multiplication and addition/subtraction on these easy numbers, it's no wonder people are so misinformed about this game.

Here's a tip, instead of using the same mob that's hitting you, go try moving to something that'll hit for a much larger sum of damage, and see if your block cost remains the same. Keep in mind that a lot of equations you're using are assuming that perfect math is being applied, which is not always the case. #Zenimath. But really, I hope you go back and reexamine your testings @Personofsecrets. I know I've made a lot of mistakes when I theory craft because I miss a small passive or carry the wrong number, but that's why I never post until I'm sure. You may want to do the same, and I am not trying to insult you with that. Always double check your math! Rule #1 you're taught in any math course

Personofsecrets

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

This is the type of stuff that makes me laugh about the age old question you heard in math class as a kid. "When will I ever use this in real life?"
Shame people who neglected furthering their knowledge are usually the ones who think they're always right. If we're having a hard time using things like multiplication and addition/subtraction on these easy numbers, it's no wonder people are so misinformed about this game.

Here's a tip, instead of using the same mob that's hitting you, go try moving to something that'll hit for a much larger sum of damage, and see if your block cost remains the same. Keep in mind that a lot of equations you're using are assuming that perfect math is being applied, which is not always the case. #Zenimath. But really, I hope you go back and reexamine your testings @Personofsecrets. I know I've made a lot of mistakes when I theory craft because I miss a small passive or carry the wrong number, but that's why I never post until I'm sure. You may want to do the same, and I am not trying to insult you with that. Always double check your math! Rule #1 you're taught in any math course

Again, block cost is independent of damage mitigation. The stats have nothing to do with each other. It doesn't matter if the best tank in the game says that they do and, like wise, it doesn't matter if we apply every single school lesson to our testing.

Personofsecrets

Nifty2g wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Nifty2g , you should see that from my test as well that I not only was my physical resistance different in both tests, but also that my damage mitigation (from losing 5 piece footman) was lower that way as well.

I'll post exactly what I did in my test and maybe you can try this out.

Part 1

1. Wore 5 piece footman. The neck has a physical resist enchant
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and stamina cost

Part 2

1. Wore 4 piece Footman. The neck was removed.
2. Blocked a physical attack noting the damage taken and the stamina cost.

As Paul writes, absorb magic is most likely the reason for seeing the result you have seen as that skill does have two different passive effects. Your third image is more interesting, but it seems like a block cost mitigation enchantment was lost. 1 enchant gives about a 80-90 change in stamina lost and that is about the change in stamina that you saw moving from image 2 to image 3.

I'll say it again for the fourth(?) time?
If you want to infinitely block and be a self sustain, stack up on block mitigation and block damage mitigation. This is the set up I have gotten from one of the best tanks. It's one of the oldest set ups in the game too.
There's also a trick with Igneous and Absorb which is another reason I use it - Just read the tooltips of them both

The point of my initial post towards you about block cost mitigation was to show that stacking block cost mitigation, in particular by using block cost mitigation enchantments, is not the only way to sustain stamina and is inefficient in the use of jewelry enchantments.

If you can use Histbark Footman to success, then nice job. That is a good starter point. What is more interesting though, and also more relevant to this thread, is when we find set combinations and ways of playing that let us keep our stamina balanced while also performing other tasks. That is why it is important to discuss itemization, as the OP has, and also understand the damaging effects of the stamina regeneration nerf.

i3ig_Gun

footman is trash...

go with endurance for regen

and stack on some 5 peice Armor Master, and keep Unstoppable up at all times... BOOM full damage mitigation with PLENTY of room to whip out a FULL DPS bar....

It works like a charm for me on my Dragonknight

Nifty2g

commit

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

footman is trash...

go with endurance for regen

and stack on some 5 peice Armor Master, and keep Unstoppable up at all times... BOOM full damage mitigation with PLENTY of room to whip out a FULL DPS bar....

It works like a charm for me on my Dragonknight

Why would you go for regen?

i3ig_Gun

Nifty2g wrote: »

commit

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

footman is trash...

go with endurance for regen

and stack on some 5 peice Armor Master, and keep Unstoppable up at all times... BOOM full damage mitigation with PLENTY of room to whip out a FULL DPS bar....

It works like a charm for me on my Dragonknight

Why would you go for regen?

Really?!

Cause they took regen away when a shield is up!

Which means you can now no longer just HOLD your shield up...

Which leads to heavy attacks and putting your shield down... in that short amount of time with your shield down, and a heavy attack going out you will recieve almost double the stam you would from just heavy attacking, if you had a high stam regen...

Footman is trash... and is no longer the staple for a successful tank no matter the build or class...

Get your character 50% damage mitigation (33,000 physical and spell resistance @ VR16) with a sword and shield on a bar, one taunt, one heal, and defensive posture, and your winning...

Personofsecrets

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

commit

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

footman is trash...

go with endurance for regen

and stack on some 5 peice Armor Master, and keep Unstoppable up at all times... BOOM full damage mitigation with PLENTY of room to whip out a FULL DPS bar....

It works like a charm for me on my Dragonknight

Why would you go for regen?

Really?!

Cause they took regen away when a shield is up!

Which means you can now no longer just HOLD your shield up...

Which leads to heavy attacks and putting your shield down... in that short amount of time with your shield down, and a heavy attack going out you will recieve almost double the stam you would from just heavy attacking, if you had a high stam regen...

Footman is trash... and is no longer the staple for a successful tank no matter the build or class...

Get your character 50% damage mitigation (33,000 physical and spell resistance @ VR16) with a sword and shield on a bar, one taunt, one heal, and defensive posture, and your winning...

I never let go of block as a tank. I'm just saying that adding to the stamina regeneration stat is probably not the best idea, but feel free to make it work.