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Julianos and Twice-Born Star

Asayre
Asayre
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Julianos appears to be quite an interesting set in Orsinium but it seems to be outshined by Twice-Born Star. I created a spreadsheet to help calculate some stats and the expected average damage with Crystal Fragments. I've assumed 501 Champion Points. Crystal Fragments is just an example spell but it should apply to most other spells. I'll including a picture of my spreadsheet results as well as a link to a viewable edition of my spreadsheet.

Julianos
kaqrth.png

Twice-Born Star
33axyyr.png


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K_5Yk5lDdBABZ5VA3z7ptO1_SYrxRV15D4_cHvoYZFY/edit?usp=sharing
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Akinos
    Akinos
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    Good info, nice to know my 3 sets of twice born star will still be badass in Orsinium :)
    Edited by Akinos on October 14, 2015 5:16AM
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  • d8rmir
    d8rmir
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    Thank you Asayre, so my naive intuition was correct!
    Still, my idea was slightly different, namely I would trade the Torug piece of armor for the monster head. Would this make things worse?
  • Maphusail
    Maphusail
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    Could you please make a comparison between TBS and Seducer sets? What set would give more resources if basic conditions are as follows:
    TBS set: all gear traits are Divine, mundus stones are Mage and Atronach.
    Seducer set: 3 big gear pieces are infused, all the others are divines and mundus is Mage.
    The question is: would overall magicka and magic regen stats with TBS set overweight magicka and magic regen stats of the Seducer set considering that the Seducer has additional set bonuses like increase of magicka and magicka regen and 8% of magicka cost reduction.

    Would appreciate greatly your analysis!
    Edited by Maphusail on October 14, 2015 8:44AM
  • Birdovic
    Birdovic
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    Oh interesting, thanks for comparing those 2 Sets!
    So you'd chose Twiceborn over Julianos? :smile:
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  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    I think, twice born star is underrestimated. It's not a bad set, but it's 2-4 traits are just too trashy and too versatile to make it good for specialized builds.

    Crystal Shard is no dps spell. You can't really spam it, so overall damage is more beneficial here.
    For spammable spells such as Force shock, crit chance becomes more valueable over time.
    I also compared twice born star to other sets several times and it will not outshine other sets. Simply because this bad bad health and stamina trait destroys this set. Most people want to focus on one thing, twice born star does not allow this.
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  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Your Julianos setup has 1 armour enchantment with health (the head piece) as opposed to magicka - was this just to ensure a certain amount of health? I doubt this will affect the calculations by much but it is 868 less magicka than the TBS setup.

    Hmm will the difference between these sets diminish as you obtain more Elfborn steps? The higher crit with Julianos would certainly favour the higher crit damage, so this could balance out the difference between having the extra Shadow Mundus with TBS. So more CP into Elfborn = Julianos potentially?
    Edited by EgoRush on October 14, 2015 11:21AM
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  • Flaminir
    Flaminir
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    Interesting.... I'd wondered about how this would compare after they buffed a couple of the key mundus stones last patch!.

    EU/EP
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @d8rmir you can swap out the torug piece for a second molag kena for the 2p set bonus and it will be fine

    @Maphusail That is an interesting question. I'll have to think about it a bit longer and I'll get back to you.

    @Dracane I don't understand your comment that spammable skills benefit more from crit chance. Could you elaborate? I know Crystal Frag is not a spammable dps spell. You could use any skill coefficient to get the same result. I just had the skill coefficient for Crystal Frag handy. And I think @Kuratius summarises it very well in that the synergy of Thief and Shadow is very strong at the moment.

    @EgoRush The reason I put an extra health enchant on the Julianos set is because I don't have the amount of CP I calculated for and I felt I needed that extra bit of health. As a side bonus, it makes the health from both sets comparable. To fully answer your question on the health enchant and Elfborn steps I'll be simply quoting the calculated average damage for crystal frags. Just think of it as an arbitrary metric where bigger is better. If you replaced the health enchant with a magicka enchant then Julianos and Twice-Born Star are pretty much identical. 16028 for Julianos and 16091 for TBS. But your health with Julianos drops down to 16809.

    And you're right with increasing number of Elfborn steps the difference diminishes and Julianos will surpass TBS in some situations. With no health enchant and 9 Elfborn steps, Julianos is at 16664 while TBS is at 16637. With 1 health enchant and 9 Elfborn steps, Julianos is at 16377 and TBS is at 16637. It does seem that the relationship is a bit trickier than I initially imagined.

    Edited by Asayre on October 14, 2015 3:24PM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    @Asayre Sorry for not explaining it better :)
    Crit becomes more recognizeable over time. The more hits you do, the more likely it is to land a critical hit and the more your crit chance becomes impactfull.

    So abilities that you can fire frequently benefit more from higher crit chance than slow bursty abilities.
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @Maphusail actually there were a number of variables that you did not specify so I had to guess them but you can see the results at

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgLGMEprxysP1OWoK7BK7T2IBca1ycOs7OUljqkaFFc/edit#gid=307439741

    Change values as needed. I aimed to have at least 18k health. I am not sure why you want to use the Mage Mundus. The Thief is most likely better for you.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    Dracane wrote: »
    @Asayre Sorry for not explaining it better :)
    Crit becomes more recognizeable over time. The more hits you do, the more likely it is to land a critical hit and the more your crit chance becomes impactfull.

    So abilities that you can fire frequently benefit more from higher crit chance than slow bursty abilities.

    Spammable skills do not benefit more from crit, all they do is get more consistent results. If you cast Crystal Shards 4 times in a fight and all 4 crit, it will make Crystal Shards look like a beast. If you cast Crystal Shards 4 times in a fight and 0 crit, it will make Crystal Shards look weak. You can deviate from your typical crit rate, for good or bad, a lot more in a small sample size than a large sample size.

    But if you spam Force Shock 50 times, which is 150 hits, the large sample size makes it highly unlikely you will deviate much from your true crit percentage. Your odds of having all 4 Crystal Shards crit is probably about 1 in 10. The odds of having all 150 Force Shocks crit is 1 in some crazy number with about 45 zeroes after it.
  • le.khang94ub17_ESO
    Another thing to consider is by using this set you can freely swap your mundus to change your role. Atro/Thief + Ritual would make a beast healer. For tanking you can use this set by swapping out your willpower for footman and use Atro + whatever your tank is lacking in.
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  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Thank-you for clarifying, @Asayre, I'm just trying to be as forward thinking as possible considering how costly it is to craft V16 sets. I want to craft the set with the best longevity. I'm content to risk 16.8K health if it means my setup will benefit from more CP in the future - though with the cap being extended they will likely bring in new sets too sigh. The curse of an MMO.

    Also, my main is a magicka Templar, so we tend to dump a lot of points into Elfborn for our 12% spell critical passive, then everything else into Thaumaturge. So I'm thinking Julianos>TBS for magicka Templar DD.
    Server: EU Pact
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    The cost of V16 sets has driven me to do this theorycrafting because it takes so much effort to get mats >.> By the way, I read your post on TamrielFoundry and wanted to clarify here. I meant 9 Elfborn jumps which means 58 points into Elfborn. Also I knew you were a templar but I forgot to include the Piercing Spear passive in the calculations. So with 58 points in Elfborn and 100 in Thaumathurge and 18 somewhere else Julianos will be better than TBS.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Maphusail
    Maphusail
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    Asayre wrote: »
    @Maphusail actually there were a number of variables that you did not specify so I had to guess them but you can see the results at

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgLGMEprxysP1OWoK7BK7T2IBca1ycOs7OUljqkaFFc/edit#gid=307439741

    Change values as needed. I aimed to have at least 18k health. I am not sure why you want to use the Mage Mundus. The Thief is most likely better for you.

    @Asayre , thank you for your reply! I'm planning to use one of these sets for my templar healer that's why I thought about Mage/Atronach stones combo. But maybe you're right that Thief would fit better than Mage. Gonna check this out.

    While opening the link you've provided I was told by google docs that one need a permission to open it. Can you pls grant me it?
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    Could you try this link? You should be able to view it and then you can copy it to make your own copy I believe

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgLGMEprxysP1OWoK7BK7T2IBca1ycOs7OUljqkaFFc/edit?usp=sharing
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Aha 9 jumps, that is a larger difference than I suspected. Hmm with 501 CP I can still get 100 into Thaum and the 58 required in Elfborn with 9 or so points remaining. So depending on CP distribution Julianos will work out better for Templar still. I'll give them both a test on the PTS if I get chance I suppose.
    Server: EU Pact
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    Character: Oriantha (Templar Healer), Zelda's Inferno (Dragonknight Tank), The Lumen Sage (Stamina Sorcerer DD), The Umbra Witch (Magicka Nightblade DD), Flirts-With-Boys (Stamina Nightblade DD), Oriantha Ellesidil (Magicka Sorcerer DD/healer), Wariantha (Magicka Warden in the making)

    Current vMA score (Templar): Pending return to game
    World Record for all trials pre-Thieves Guild
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj clear
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    Returning to the game for Morrowind
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    I'm getting request for access to

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgLGMEprxysP1OWoK7BK7T2IBca1ycOs7OUljqkaFFc/edit?usp=sharing

    Is this because people are unable to view it?

    I am not keen to allow editing access.

    @EgoRush perhaps this is a silly question but where do you do your testing? I do my real in-game testing at Bloodspawn with a heal-tank but was wondering if there was a better place.
    Edited by Asayre on October 15, 2015 7:13PM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Asayre wrote: »
    I'm getting request for access to

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FgLGMEprxysP1OWoK7BK7T2IBca1ycOs7OUljqkaFFc/edit?usp=sharing

    Is this because people are unable to view it?

    I am not keen to allow editing access.

    @EgoRush perhaps this is a silly question but where do you do your testing? I do my real in-game testing at Bloodspawn with a heal-tank but was wondering if there was a better place.

    I try a variety of places. Bloodspawn, but the fight is pretty short so I feel that often skews parses. So Sanctum Ophidia's Mantikora too. There's also a scorpion boss in the south of Craglorn that supposedly has high spell resistance. If I'm not concerned with spell resistance/penetration, then I go bully Gargoyles around Craglorn as I don't need a tank/healer. Gargoyles are good if I want to compare 2 setups and purely see which setup gives the strongest Puncturing Sweep damage or something.
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  • Paulington
    Paulington
    Community Ambassador
    So @Asayre, why does your Juliano's set only have one piece Kena? Magicka DPS run two pieces and keep Overkill up 100% of the time for an extra 500-odd spell damage on top which gives far more than Torug's does. It may be worth testing with the extra spell damage from Overkill and see what happens.

    On top of that, the Maelstrom Staff gives 189 spell damage alone, so try 5x Juliano's, 2x Kena (with Overkill up) and 1x Maelstrom Destro. I'd wager it'd be far beyond TTBS.
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Paulington wrote: »
    So @Asayre, why does your Juliano's set only have one piece Kena? Magicka DPS run two pieces and keep Overkill up 100% of the time for an extra 500-odd spell damage on top which gives far more than Torug's does. It may be worth testing with the extra spell damage from Overkill and see what happens.

    On top of that, the Maelstrom Staff gives 189 spell damage alone, so try 5x Juliano's, 2x Kena (with Overkill up) and 1x Maelstrom Destro. I'd wager it'd be far beyond TTBS.

    Well you could still have TBS with the Kena 2-piece and Maelstrom destro, I'd want to see both compared on equal terms. Though I've settled on Julianos for my Templar :)
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  • Lilarna
    Lilarna
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    Thank you, it's exactly what I was looking for <3
    Edited by Lilarna on October 16, 2015 3:49PM
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  • Altyrann
    Altyrann
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    Thanks. I have been making something similar and the work you have done to pull out base stats and impact of CP is very helpful.

    Just to check, on your calculation have you included the 5% spell damage minor sorcery buff from the Templar passive Illuminate? I was expecting the total SD multiplier to be 1.31 rather than 1.26 (20% major sorcery, 5% minor sorcery, 6% from expert mage).

    I also cannot spot the minor prophecy (5% spell critical chance) buff in the calculations (from Sorceror exploitation passive).
    Edited by Altyrann on October 18, 2015 5:16PM
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @Altyrann I was initially calculating for a Sorcerer. I should have said that somewhere but I forgot. The Expert Mage passive is a Sorcerer only passive. In this new calculations I have separated calculations for Templars and Sorcerers. I have included the Minor Sorcery buff from illuminate for the Templar calculations. On re-reading your comment, I realised that I misunderstood you initially. I should have added an extra 5% since a templar group member will give the Illuminate passive. I didn't include it in the screenshots below but if I added it in the calculation, the ability metric for Julianos is 123741 and for TBS 123963

    @le.khang94ub17_ESO while I'm no magicka nightblade expert. TBS is probably still better even when taking into account the Pressure Point and Hemorrhage passive. Of course all calculations assume legendary v16 gear so you better get upgrading...

    Thank you for the comments @Paulington and @EgoRush and the helpful discussion with @hedna123b14_ESO

    I rechecked my calculations and performed it again with the setup suggested by @Paulington and my final conclusion is that TBS is still better. It seems that increasing spell damage favours Twice-born as seen in the calculations for sorcerers. With regards to templars, I previously thought that the Piercing Spear passive would favour Julianos since it would be increasing the effect of Elfborn. But in saying that I forgot that Piercing Spear also increases the effect of the Shadow mundus. Thus the difference between TBS and Julianos is larger for a templar (and in favour of TBS). This also means that skills that boost critical damage modifier such as Rearming Trap and Aggresive warhorn will favour TBS more.

    As an aside, my calculations suggest that Nirnhoned is better for targets with a spell resistance greater than 10000. Since most bosses appear to have at least 16000 resistance (unless they are weak to a specific element) Nirnhoned should always be used even when Major Breach is used as this would lower the Spell Resistance to ~11000. All calculations below assume a CP distribution of 100 in Elemental Expert (for Sorc) or Thaumathurge (for Templars), 58 in Elfborn and 9 in Spell Erosion. This is always the optimum CP distribution for Templars even if the mob has a Spell Resistance of 32000 (it changes at an unrealistic Spell Resistance)

    Here are the calculations for a sorcerer in support of my argument. The ability metric is based on a weighted sum of magicka and spell damage multiplied by the product of the critical damage chance and critical damage modifier. A higher ability metric score is preferred.

    Julianos - Ability metric - 121327
    2qatus9.png

    TBS - Ability metric - 121657
    148gehl.png

    And one for templars

    Julianos - Ability metric - 119941
    9se23b.png

    TBS - Ability metric 121162
    294kvaa.png

    And a link to a viewable spreadsheet
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vCAUoC-Fr_obOadUyFnGkt9V539PeKydKlaTtYe2szU/edit?usp=sharing

    Edit note: I made a mistake of including the Torug set bonus. My latest and most likely last update is on the next forum page.
    Edited by Asayre on October 19, 2015 2:58AM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • quickblade418
    quickblade418
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    Whats your magicka recovery with these setup OP ? Im curious did you let the default magicka recovery on your jewels of willpower? Because on my setup right now with Kagrenac 5 pièces , 1 molag kena and 2 torug pact, spell damage glyphs on my jewels on top of the spell damage mundus stone, I can reach a ton more spell damage than both of your setups with TBS and julianos... I'm tlking about 3800 ish spell damage.... wouldnt that be a better setup ? My Crystal frags hit damn hard just telling you

    Just to give you an idea, my Crystal frag is always 15k on my tooltip , and thats without a crit ... so I think my setup is better, but thanks for comparing TBS and Julianos tho
    Edited by quickblade418 on October 18, 2015 8:09PM
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  • Dracane
    Dracane
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    Dracane wrote: »
    @Asayre Sorry for not explaining it better :)
    Crit becomes more recognizeable over time. The more hits you do, the more likely it is to land a critical hit and the more your crit chance becomes impactfull.

    So abilities that you can fire frequently benefit more from higher crit chance than slow bursty abilities.

    Spammable skills do not benefit more from crit, all they do is get more consistent results. If you cast Crystal Shards 4 times in a fight and all 4 crit, it will make Crystal Shards look like a beast. If you cast Crystal Shards 4 times in a fight and 0 crit, it will make Crystal Shards look weak. You can deviate from your typical crit rate, for good or bad, a lot more in a small sample size than a large sample size.

    But if you spam Force Shock 50 times, which is 150 hits, the large sample size makes it highly unlikely you will deviate much from your true crit percentage. Your odds of having all 4 Crystal Shards crit is probably about 1 in 10. The odds of having all 150 Force Shocks crit is 1 in some crazy number with about 45 zeroes after it.

    Thanks for agreeing, that's all I was saying.
    Spammable abilities produce more consistent results>More results= More benefit from crit chance
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  • Paulington
    Paulington
    Community Ambassador
    Asayre wrote: »
    @Altyrann I was initially calculating for a Sorcerer. I should have said that somewhere but I forgot. The Expert Mage passive is a Sorcerer only passive. In this new calculations I have separated calculations for Templars and Sorcerers. I have included the Minor Sorcery buff from illuminate for the Templar calculations. On re-reading your comment, I realised that I misunderstood you initially. I should have added an extra 5% since a templar group member will give the Illuminate passive. I didn't include it in the screenshots below but if I added it in the calculation, the ability metric for Julianos is 123741 and for TBS 123963

    @le.khang94ub17_ESO while I'm no magicka nightblade expert. TBS is probably still better even when taking into account the Pressure Point and Hemorrhage passive. Of course all calculations assume legendary v16 gear so you better get upgrading...

    Thank you for the comments @Paulington and @EgoRush and the helpful discussion with @hedna123b14_ESO

    I rechecked my calculations and performed it again with the setup suggested by @Paulington and my final conclusion is that TBS is still better. It seems that increasing spell damage favours Twice-born as seen in the calculations for sorcerers. With regards to templars, I previously thought that the Piercing Spear passive would favour Julianos since it would be increasing the effect of Elfborn. But in saying that I forgot that Piercing Spear also increases the effect of the Shadow mundus. Thus the difference between TBS and Julianos is larger for a templar (and in favour of TBS). This also means that skills that boost critical damage modifier such as Rearming Trap and Aggresive warhorn will favour TBS more.

    As an aside, my calculations suggest that Nirnhoned is better for targets with a spell resistance greater than 10000. Since most bosses appear to have at least 16000 resistance (unless they are weak to a specific element) Nirnhoned should always be used even when Major Breach is used as this would lower the Spell Resistance to ~11000. All calculations below assume a CP distribution of 100 in Elemental Expert (for Sorc) or Thaumathurge (for Templars), 58 in Elfborn and 9 in Spell Erosion. This is always the optimum CP distribution for Templars even if the mob has a Spell Resistance of 32000 (it changes at an unrealistic Spell Resistance)

    Here are the calculations for a sorcerer in support of my argument. The ability metric is based on a weighted sum of magicka and spell damage multiplied by the product of the critical damage chance and critical damage modifier. A higher ability metric score is preferred.

    Julianos - Ability metric - 121327
    2qatus9.png

    TBS - Ability metric - 121657
    148gehl.png

    And one for templars

    Julianos - Ability metric - 119941
    9se23b.png

    TBS - Ability metric 121162
    294kvaa.png

    And a link to a viewable spreadsheet
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vCAUoC-Fr_obOadUyFnGkt9V539PeKydKlaTtYe2szU/edit?usp=sharing

    Hey @Asayre.

    Thanks for all the data, made for really interesting reading. I have modified your spreadsheet and come to the opposite conclusion however.

    From your spreadsheet on Juliano's Sorc, your "bonus" spell damage seemed low and just doing a bit of maths of my own I come up with a much higher number including the Kena proc.

    Willpower: 751
    Kena: 645 (Base 129 + 516 proc).
    Julianos: 299
    Maelstrom: 189
    Total: 1,884.

    I copied your spreadsheet and put this new number in and I get a performance metric of 129,351 which is around 6.5% higher than your TTBS performance metric. This is on the staff bar too. Currently the Dual-Wield bar with Torug's gives an extra 334 spell damage which would increase the metric even more.

    To me this suggests that Juliano's is the better set here, but I am open to correction. We will find out in a few hours! :). The spreadsheet I modified can be found here.
  • Asayre
    Asayre
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Paulington could you turn on sharing 'View only' for the spreadsheet?
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Paulington
    Paulington
    Community Ambassador
    Asayre wrote: »
    @Paulington could you turn on sharing 'View only' for the spreadsheet?

    Here you go @Asayre.
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