Official Feedback Thread for Champion System Updates

Daveheart

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Random question...
Wouldn't it be simple to apply enlighten buff at higher rates to last longer as a catch up mechanism and change nothing else.

I'm not sure why ppl with more champion points would need more exp.
the exp required should never change for each champion pt
What should happen are enlightenment buffs that give up to 300% increased exp and lower the exp buff every 100 or 50 levels


Tome that's a catch up and with a max cp cap this is all that was needed.

What exists further complicates the system, penalizes the wrong group and prolongs the problem created by cp variances.

Also don't mess with what cp points offer.

I'd actually proposed that before, but my recent post was just a manipulation of their chosen system. It did seem like it would make sense to just alter the enlightenment buff like vampirism stage 1, 2, 3, or 4 where both the efficiency and duration of enlightenment increases the further you were from the cap. It could have been done with 5 stages and then enlightenment just goes away at the cap.

Elsonso

silky_soft wrote: »

No, just no. This is wrong and it needs to be changed. This is a fall behind mechanic, not a catchup. You are stealth buffing players who have 1000s already. A cap should of been launched at CP release, imagine if you didn't put a VR cap in.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler This needs to be scaled off the top 2% CP earners. You can no longer use the cap to scale off, you missed that boat. At no point should any CP we earn cost more than what it cost them to earn.

The CP system has to be tuned against the mistakes of the past that have lead us here. This requires a cap because they let the system run wild and ungoverned for so many months. This requires a sliding XP cost because that is what caused the system to run wild. I think it also needs a blanket nerf to the benefits afforded by CPs, and we will see if they do that in 2016.

Decisions they have made are coming back to haunt them.

1. Each individual CP has too much impact. Even with diminishing returns, the gap becomes huge. To make CPs have more value, they cut that road down to 3600 CP, but in doing that they made a nice achievable goal. If they are not going change the system to reduce the gap, they will have to cap it. The cap is required to address those who have been grinding CPs while they decided what to do to fix it.
2. Each CP costs the same. You really should get less benefit from each additional CP and it should cost more to get it. Grindy, yes, but if they are going to run a large gap system, they need a way for people to gather in a certain range. The sliding scale allows the developers to eyeball where they want the bulk of the population to be at. The sliding scale allows those who are lower than that to get there while inhibiting those above that level. It should have been in the system on Day 1.
3. The overall cost of CPs is too low, making grinding not only possible but the wide gap makes it attractive. The numbers are big, the time investment is long, but it is already clear that some people are willing to put in that time.

Regarding the overall cost of CP being so low, this is why I am here today.

I am a low CP player; a brand new Champion Rank 39 guy on Live. This means that, as I travel in Wrothgar, each time I sneeze, I get a new Champion Point. This is fall allergy season. In about an HOUR of play, I managed to get to Champion Rank 42, and I really have not done anything other than go to the city of Orsinium to meet some lady after helping out a caravan.

Each Champion Point is about 75k XP and my feeling is that this is too low. I would like to see this about 100k, to be honest. I like getting CPs but I don't feel like I am doing enough to earn what I am getting. It feels a little like getting a CP just for logging into the game.

Lazyness

lordrichter wrote: »

The cap is required to address those who have been grinding CPs while they decided what to do to fix it.

and why should that be an issue?

if you play this game every day, then why should people get punished for grinding?
it's not like there were many things to do..

once you've seen the same trials for over a year, have run DSA uncountable times and so on..
why blame them for grinding?

xMovingTarget

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Worst method they ever could implement. So the new system will reward ppl that grinded like monkeys prior and will shaft ppl that normally played without grinding. PLS FIX THIS ZOS.

I have close to 350 points on Live right now. And I honestly dont feel like putting more effort in something that others got easier prior.

So either recalculate all players to the new system. Or scale it differently. Example, the last point to reach the cap costs 400k xp. Everything before that costs less by a factor of whatever you desire. This would make the game alot more fair.

The system as is on PTS now is even worse than live. I rather have no catch up than this. Coz this is going to be a fall back mechanic for me and alot of others.

A mechanic like that would honestly only motivate me to leave "The Elder Scrolls Online".

Lazyness

xMovingTarget wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Worst method they ever could implement. So the new system will reward ppl that grinded like monkeys prior and will shaft ppl that normally played without grinding. PLS FIX THIS ZOS.

I have close to 350 points on Live right now. And I honestly dont feel like putting more effort in something that others got easier prior.

So either recalculate all players to the new system. Or scale it differently. Example, the last point to reach the cap costs 400k xp. Everything before that costs less by a factor of whatever you desire. This would make the game alot more fair.

The system as is on PTS now is even worse than live. I rather have no catch up than this. Coz this is going to be a fall back mechanic for me and alot of others.

A mechanic like that would honestly only motivate me to leave "The Elder Scrolls Online".

I Agree there should be a catch up system. I just disagree with the fact they "punish" people with a higher amount of CP.

AlnilamE

I feel that essentially, the portion of the system that makes higher CP cost more than 400k will penalize anyone in the mid-300s and above for doing non-repeatable content.

Rather than going questing when we feel like it, like we can do now, we will have to consider whether it's not better to wait until they raise the cap and adjust the sliding scale.

And the fact that above the cap champion points take more XP than a vet rank (or three in some cases). The point of CP was to replace VRs because VRs took too long.

Right now, the Champion System is nice. You go about your business and every once in a while you're like "oh, I got a Champion Point". That's really nice.

But if it's going to take months to go from one Champion point to the next, might as well ditch the entire system and just raise VR to 200 or something. It will be less grindy.

I'm all in favour of a catch-up system, and I think it leveling out in the 330s like it does now is the right spot. But penalizing people who have higher CP by basically increasing the CP cost 6x will force them to avoid any non-repeatable content and just focus on grinding and dailies (if they want to play at all).

Up to this point, I really felt like I could do what I wanted in the game and progress. I could quest, do writs, do pledges, PvP a bit or just run around with friends killing things if they needed help with WBs or dolmens. All of this would give me the occasional CP.

Now I will have to consider if I want to do quests or if I should just avoid them at all until the slider moves up. Because quests are going to be worth less and less the further up you move the CP scale and they are non-repeatable, so once you do them, you are never recouping that XP penalty you just took.

Which defeats the whole point of having new content to play to begin with.

So keep the cap and the catch-up system, but please ditch the part of it where it costs more than 400k XP to earn higher CP.

MrGrimey

I feel like no cp earned under the cap should cost more than 400k Xp. I get that you guys want people to work for it at a point, but it is a Catch-up mechanic after all

pcripper39ub17_ESO

I'm all for a catchup mechanic. Also not to worried about a seasonal cap. That being said, I believe they need an upper cap on how many xp it takes to get another champ point. My feeling is, it should never take more than a vr levels worth of xp to get another champ point.

850k is still a ton of xp to get a champ point, but better than some of the numbers I've been seeing for those over the 501 cap. So, I propose a top cap of 850k xp per champ point for those over the cap. Might not be the best solution, but a lot better than it is currently on the pts.

xMovingTarget

Lazyness wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Worst method they ever could implement. So the new system will reward ppl that grinded like monkeys prior and will shaft ppl that normally played without grinding. PLS FIX THIS ZOS.

I have close to 350 points on Live right now. And I honestly dont feel like putting more effort in something that others got easier prior.

So either recalculate all players to the new system. Or scale it differently. Example, the last point to reach the cap costs 400k xp. Everything before that costs less by a factor of whatever you desire. This would make the game alot more fair.

The system as is on PTS now is even worse than live. I rather have no catch up than this. Coz this is going to be a fall back mechanic for me and alot of others.

A mechanic like that would honestly only motivate me to leave "The Elder Scrolls Online".

I Agree there should be a catch up system. I just disagree with the fact they "punish" people with a higher amount of CP.

That´s what I was saying

NewBlacksmurf

Daveheart wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Random question...
Wouldn't it be simple to apply enlighten buff at higher rates to last longer as a catch up mechanism and change nothing else.

I'm not sure why ppl with more champion points would need more exp.
the exp required should never change for each champion pt
What should happen are enlightenment buffs that give up to 300% increased exp and lower the exp buff every 100 or 50 levels


Tome that's a catch up and with a max cp cap this is all that was needed.

What exists further complicates the system, penalizes the wrong group and prolongs the problem created by cp variances.

Also don't mess with what cp points offer.

I'd actually proposed that before, but my recent post was just a manipulation of their chosen system. It did seem like it would make sense to just alter the enlightenment buff like vampirism stage 1, 2, 3, or 4 where both the efficiency and duration of enlightenment increases the further you were from the cap. It could have been done with 5 stages and then enlightenment just goes away at the cap.

so maybe this...
-Keep the Cap at 501 (until the next wave)
-Keep the exp required for each where it is now (not PTS but live as of 10/7/15)
-apply a permanent enlightenment bonus for anyone less than 400 CPs
-use enlightenment at largely increased rates so if someone is below 100, maybe they get a 300% boost, if over 100 but below 200 they get a 250% - 200% boost, if above 200 but below 300 give a 200% - 150% boost and from 300 - 400 give a 150% - 100% boost, and 400 - 499 maybe a 100% to 50% boost but once you hit 500, there should be no enlightenment boost just a normal bonus and the same exp rates.

I have no idea why they are making this harder than it needs to be

ennuid

Sorry for the re-post, I put this in general discussion initially, but I realize now this is the right place.

I wondered what would happen if they took all the champ experience people have earned so far (not champ levels) and applied it to the new experience curve that has been datamined. Here's what I got:



Anybody under level 536 at launch would gain points (most people would pick up 100+), and someone with 2200 points would be reduced to 823. This is a small enough difference that they could let everyone use all of the champion points they've earned against the new experience curve. Instead of a hard "no progression past this point" cap, 501 would act like a soft cap: a 3x experience penalty for people playing more than 5 hours a day. Call it unenlightenment.

It would be much easier to get to 501 in the new system, and there's not nearly as much difference between 501 and 823, so starting players would have an achievable goal. Nobody would lose anything that they've earned (it's still the same total champ experience), and everyone would continue to have a reason to play and get more champ points.

What do you think?

trippingchrissy

FWIW - I'm now at 225 CP (filthy casual!) and yesterday in 6 hours of play (by which I mean, running around Wrothgar completely unfocused), I gained 6 CP to get me here. UI tells me I need 277,130 XP to get to 226.

Elsonso

Lazyness wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

The cap is required to address those who have been grinding CPs while they decided what to do to fix it.

and why should that be an issue?

if you play this game every day, then why should people get punished for grinding?
it's not like there were many things to do..

once you've seen the same trials for over a year, have run DSA uncountable times and so on..
why blame them for grinding?

It is an issue because they created a system, launched it, and let it run wild for 6 months. During that time, they decided the system was allowing people to earn CP too fast, which caused a larger than expected power gap. The cap puts a limit on the size of the gap.

The cap is necessary as part of how they need to address how far out of spec the system is compared to where it is supposed to be. My impression from the way they have said things is that the system is very much out of where they wanted it to be.

I want to emphasize that I view the cap as being necessary solely due to original design flaws in the Champion System coupled with an extremely large amount of time before they took action to address those flaws. In a brand new system, there should be no need for caps.

MrGrimey wrote: »

I feel like no cp earned under the cap should cost more than 400k Xp. I get that you guys want people to work for it at a point, but it is a Catch-up mechanic after all

Just a comment that 500 CP does not represent where they want the system to be. It represents the point at which they do not want the system to be. Where they want the CP to be is lower than 500.

Dominoid

Enodoc wrote: »

I'm putting this here for myself to use later, and I'm hoping it does what I think it will do, but if anyone feels like investigating before I get around to it, feel free.

/script d(GetChampionXPInRank(GetPlayerChampionPointsEarned()))

/script for i=1,600 do d(i .. GetChampionXPInRank(i)) end

This did exactly what you thought it would. Here are the results!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit?usp=sharing

AlnilamE

lordrichter wrote: »

Just a comment that 500 CP does not represent where they want the system to be. It represents the point at which they do not want the system to be. Where they want the CP to be is lower than 500.

Yeah, which is why it's reasonable that the catch-up system ends at around 300. But that doesn't mean they need to penalize players after they hit the 300 mark, particularly since they are going to later adjust the catch-up system to a higher degree, thus penalizing everybody who kept playing through increased XP penalties per champion point.

I mean, if they are going to make it so that those of us that are around 300 CP are better off just leaving the game for 3 months or however long it takes them to release new DLC and raise the cap/adjust the scale rather than stay and be penalized, how is that good for the game?

And what is the power differential between 300 and 500 CP that makes having people be at the cap be so unattractive?

ItsRejectz

So I'm never catching up with the players who already have over 1000 cp with this system, that's for sure

Enodoc

Dominoid wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

I'm putting this here for myself to use later, and I'm hoping it does what I think it will do, but if anyone feels like investigating before I get around to it, feel free.

/script d(GetChampionXPInRank(GetPlayerChampionPointsEarned()))

/script for i=1,600 do d(i .. GetChampionXPInRank(i)) end

This did exactly what you thought it would. Here are the results!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14l_K_29Hyj4cjuCAcbCdeGBtLAMRjdbNz78zS6kTjZc/edit?usp=sharing

Brilliant, thanks! My PTS still hasn't downloaded, so that's one less thing to do once it has!

Enodoc

@ZOS_GinaBruno Not sure if it's been stated anywhere yet, but how is Enlightenment factored into the new mechanics?

monkeymystic

• ZOS could easily implement a better, faster catch-up mechanic, and at the same time rise the cap higher to make it better for everyone.
  This wouldn't screw over so many dedicated players and lose so many subscriptions, who now gets punished for actually playing their game!
  A win-win situation compared to the mess they are implementing.
  
  
  I personally cancelled my sub, while waiting to see if they are raising the cap higher, and increasing the catch-up exp more, to make it better for all parts and avoid screwing over all the longterm players who actually play, test and keep their game alive with subscription.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

CtrlAltDlt

Stupid question but, you dont keep the cps gained in pts when you go back to live right?

I've never played pts so thats why i ask.

AlnilamE

juan0316 wrote: »

Stupid question but, you dont keep the cps gained in pts when you go back to live right?

I've never played pts so thats why i ask.

No. Nothing you do on PTS will transfer back to live.

So go wild!!!

CtrlAltDlt

AlnilamE wrote: »

juan0316 wrote: »

Stupid question but, you dont keep the cps gained in pts when you go back to live right?

I've never played pts so thats why i ask.

No. Nothing you do on PTS will transfer back to live.

So go wild!!!

Cheers

ADarklore

Nobody is being "punished" with a CP cap; did you not enjoy the game while playing? I grow tired of hearing players who want a challenge, yet, never want to see other players equal to themselves and therefore creating a more challenging environment. Besides this, the people who have over 500 CP are in a very very small minority, and if they leave because they feel they are being 'punished', the game WILL survive. However, the game will NOT survive if new players continue to leave in droves because they don't see a light at the end of the tunnel in which they can reasonably be expected to reach the top level. Further, ALL MMOs that I know of have a CAP, a cap that is increased with each DLC- usually it's a level cap. With that cap in place, lower level players can have time between DLCs to catch up to those at the cap- but as it stands now- there is no realistic way a new player could ever expect to catch up in any reasonable amount of time. Obviously those with the most CP are PC players who've been playing since beta, and again, a small minority of the overall ESO player base.

To them I say this... WHY are you so afraid of having the playing field leveled? Did you not enjoy the game all this time? What is the problem with knowing that, when each CP cap raise, you'll already be there while others, once again, have to play catch up to you? Isn't that enough of an ego stroke for you?!?

Grunim

AlnilamE wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Just a comment that 500 CP does not represent where they want the system to be. It represents the point at which they do not want the system to be. Where they want the CP to be is lower than 500.

Yeah, which is why it's reasonable that the catch-up system ends at around 300. But that doesn't mean they need to penalize players after they hit the 300 mark, particularly since they are going to later adjust the catch-up system to a higher degree, thus penalizing everybody who kept playing through increased XP penalties per champion point.

I mean, if they are going to make it so that those of us that are around 300 CP are better off just leaving the game for 3 months or however long it takes them to release new DLC and raise the cap/adjust the scale rather than stay and be penalized, how is that good for the game?

And what is the power differential between 300 and 500 CP that makes having people be at the cap be so unattractive?

Excellent post! I am in the low 300s now in champion points and yesterday I went to PTS without reading anything but the patch notes and looked at how many CPs I needed for next CP level, asked one guildie who was in the high 300s how many CPs he needed for next CP level and it was obvious to me the current set-up is a penalty for a player like me.

How could I possibly be happy about this. Can't they find a way to not penalize people in my CP range?

sladen_eos

At the moment this change really hurts your long term players who have for example 100+... having got to that amount by earning 400,000 exp per champion point. Now with the new lower exp rates needed, pre orsinium players have unfairly had to spend many more hours getting to say 300 cp's compared to a new player starting out in the next patch, who will get to this champion point level with far fewer hours spent playing.

I know you guys want to put in this catch up mechanic to help out newer players which I fully support. But to not punish your long term gamers can you please convert our current champion point levels into the new experience formula?

AlnilamE

ADarklore wrote: »

Nobody is being "punished" with a CP cap; did you not enjoy the game while playing? I grow tired of hearing players who want a challenge, yet, never want to see other players equal to themselves and therefore creating a more challenging environment. Besides this, the people who have over 500 CP are in a very very small minority, and if they leave because they feel they are being 'punished', the game WILL survive. However, the game will NOT survive if new players continue to leave in droves because they don't see a light at the end of the tunnel in which they can reasonably be expected to reach the top level. Further, ALL MMOs that I know of have a CAP, a cap that is increased with each DLC- usually it's a level cap. With that cap in place, lower level players can have time between DLCs to catch up to those at the cap- but as it stands now- there is no realistic way a new player could ever expect to catch up in any reasonable amount of time. Obviously those with the most CP are PC players who've been playing since beta, and again, a small minority of the overall ESO player base.

To them I say this... WHY are you so afraid of having the playing field leveled? Did you not enjoy the game all this time? What is the problem with knowing that, when each CP cap raise, you'll already be there while others, once again, have to play catch up to you? Isn't that enough of an ego stroke for you?!?

I have not seen anyone complaining about the actual cap. Have you?

I think the issue people have is the fairly steep increase in XP needed to earn a CP after 338 (and then after 501).

I'm fine with the cap. I'm fine with the catch-up mechanic (and I seem to be just ahead of the catch-up curve, so I won't be benefiting from it), but I am not fine with being essentially discouraged from doing quests until they slide the scale and I get a better return on my XP.

If they leave the cap and the catch-up mechanic, but leave CP after the 338 mark at 400k per CP, you won't hear another peep from me on this topic.

ItsRejectz

Sorry I am on my phone and haven't been able to read everything in this topic, but can somebody please explain something to me.
Going by that document, the amount of xp needed per cp increased with each rank. So how is this a catch up mechanic? Especially when players already have over 1000 already

Lucky28

ADarklore wrote: »

To them I say this... WHY are you so afraid of having the playing field leveled? Did you not enjoy the game all this time? What is the problem with knowing that, when each CP cap raise, you'll already be there while others, once again, have to play catch up to you? Isn't that enough of an ego stroke for you?!?

What are they going to do in the meantime?. there is little point in them sticking around playing content that does very little to improve their character. Nah, for people at the cap or near it, the game will be extremely boring. at this point it was too late to put a cap in.

A legitimate and efficient catch up mechanic would have been great. but this isn't it and the cap was unnecessary.

Why ZOS didn't just alter the enlightenment system to benefit low CP players more rather than screw with their player base, i'll never know.

ahstin2001nub18_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

I'm very surprised to see that the amount of XP required to get CPs over 450-ish is more than you need to gain a Vet Rank. Remember that the problem with VRs was how long it took to gain one of them? We don't want to see that repeated with CPs, otherwise we'll just end up with the same problem again. As someone else said, we're looking for a catch-up mechanic, not a fall-behind mechanic. This means that it should be making it easier for players to get to, say, 400 CP, by reducing the amount of XP required, not increasing the amount of XP needed once you get over 300 CP and thus making it harder for players who have not done so yet to get more than 300 CP. That's backwards logic.

As @Daveheart put it:

Daveheart wrote: »

[...] each CP should never cost more than the current 400k XP per point.

And since I like the suggested values too, here they are again:

Percentage of cap (cp range for the current cap) -> cost per CP

• 0-10% (0-50 CP) -> 50k CPXP
• 10-20% (50-100 CP) -> 75k CPXP
• 20-30% (100-150 CP) -> 100k CPXP
• 30-40% (150-200 CP) -> 150k CPXP
• 40-50% (200-250 CP) -> 200k CPXP
• 50-60% (250-300 CP) -> 250k CPXP
• 60-70% (300-350 CP) -> 300k CPXP
• 70-80% (350-400 CP) -> 350k CPXP
• 80%+ (400+ CP) -> 400k CPXP

i think they should just follow through with their 1 point a day philosophy the system was based on. it should be an easy fix (in theory) just make 20 hours offline result in 1 champion point per 4 hour session via enlightenment. maybe im wrong, but 1-4 hours seems to be the area we casuals linger around right?

even under the new system with growing experience 400+, most weren't able to keep up with 400k period.... 410k, 420k, 430k, regardless post 400k isn't going to be more achievable later, it will hold people at around the 350 CP mark longer, and the cap still fairly time consuming to reach even at 501

Cathexis

My favourite cp quote of all time:

Success in PvP should not hinge on how many zombies you grind.

I full on support the CP cap for one simple reason: giving excessive buffs to experienced players allowing them the absolute capacity to dominate other players acts as a deterrent to new players engaging in PvP.