Witches' Festival Crown Store Items: An Issue With Timing

Gidorick

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Most of the masses would never understand why the Tamrielic holiday is not at the same time as Halloween.

To be fair, I don't understand that either. Saturalia is on the 25th of Evening Star, the New Life Festival is on 1st Morning Star. There's no denying that those Tamrielic holidays were created to line up with real-world ones, so why does the Witches' Festival not line up with Halloween?

hmm... You have a point. It is interesting that the original writer of the Witches' festival didn't just make it Frostfall the 31st...

Maybe it was originally a typo, but they just kept it. 13, 31, whoopsies. "Well, the number 13 has usually been thought of as a sinister number.". Or it was just a miscommunication because of this and they shrugged it off.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was the writer thought they were being clever by inversing 31 to 13.

Whatever the reason... the date of the holiday if Frostfall the 13th and my original comment stands.

AhPook_Is_Here

I was really hoping there would be a PIP BOY costume. Such sadness, the crowns I could have dropped for that!

Gidorick

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I was really hoping there would be a PIP BOY costume. Such sadness, the crowns I could have dropped for that!

What about Dwemer Power Armor? Fueled by Soulgems?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiLMiDiip7g

Or maybe we find Vault 519 in Tamriel....

Lookstowindwards

Gidorick wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

Makes me wonder with which "festival" they'll come up with in... uhm... 2 months or so to sell their new red-nosed reindeer mount...

The New Life festival. They do not even have to change the date. In the 2nd Era, it was popular to dress up in red outfits with red fur caps and ride around in sleighs pulled by deer while delivering gifts. They used trees decorated by lights and other finery to tell people where to put the gifts. By the 3rd Era, this tradition had changed quite a bit.

Y'all have fun with that. I will not be participating.

Yep! The specific holiday you're thinking of is Saturalia. The New Life festival comes a few days early in Wayrest with Saturalia, traditionally held on the 25th of Evening Star. Originally a holiday for a long forgotten god of debauchery, it has become a time of gift giving, parties, and parading. Visitors are encouraged to participate.

So yea... Expect gifts... expect very VERY "Christmasy" items.

I so much need a "Oh the horror"-Button now (and the LoL back, and a Facepalm - but for this ... Oh the horror!)

Gidorick

Lookstowindwards wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

Makes me wonder with which "festival" they'll come up with in... uhm... 2 months or so to sell their new red-nosed reindeer mount...

The New Life festival. They do not even have to change the date. In the 2nd Era, it was popular to dress up in red outfits with red fur caps and ride around in sleighs pulled by deer while delivering gifts. They used trees decorated by lights and other finery to tell people where to put the gifts. By the 3rd Era, this tradition had changed quite a bit.

Y'all have fun with that. I will not be participating.

Yep! The specific holiday you're thinking of is Saturalia. The New Life festival comes a few days early in Wayrest with Saturalia, traditionally held on the 25th of Evening Star. Originally a holiday for a long forgotten god of debauchery, it has become a time of gift giving, parties, and parading. Visitors are encouraged to participate.

So yea... Expect gifts... expect very VERY "Christmasy" items.

I so much need a "Oh the horror"-Button now (and the LoL back, and a Facepalm - but for this ... Oh the horror!)

You could just use something like...

Elsonso

Gidorick wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

Makes me wonder with which "festival" they'll come up with in... uhm... 2 months or so to sell their new red-nosed reindeer mount...

The New Life festival. They do not even have to change the date. In the 2nd Era, it was popular to dress up in red outfits with red fur caps and ride around in sleighs pulled by deer while delivering gifts. They used trees decorated by lights and other finery to tell people where to put the gifts. By the 3rd Era, this tradition had changed quite a bit.

Y'all have fun with that. I will not be participating.

Yep! The specific holiday you're thinking of is Saturalia. The New Life festival comes a few days early in Wayrest with Saturalia, traditionally held on the 25th of Evening Star. Originally a holiday for a long forgotten god of debauchery, it has become a time of gift giving, parties, and parading. Visitors are encouraged to participate.

So yea... Expect gifts... expect very VERY "Christmasy" items.

Yeah, my eye dropped a table line when I was looking at that. I should have known by the name.

AhPook_Is_Here

Gidorick wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I was really hoping there would be a PIP BOY costume. Such sadness, the crowns I could have dropped for that!

What about Dwemer Power Armor? Fueled by Soulgems?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiLMiDiip7g

Or maybe we find Vault 519 in Tamriel....

Nice! I'd take that with a brotherhood of steel banner! Maybe a football nuke rack like LIBERTY PRIME had?

Mettaricana

Stop whining longer sell time more sales

Gidorick

That's what I'm asking for @Mettaricana... longer sale time.

Gidorick

Ok... so. Checking the Crown Store today reveals that ZOS' answer to this suggestion was...

There is still the possibility that we will get the item before, or on, the 13th... fingers crossed.

Elsonso

The only change to the Store that will happen between now an Oct 13 would be if Disney came up, tossed piles of money on the table, and wanted every Dwarven Centurion in the game to look and sound like C3PO by that date.

In other words, ain't gonna happen.

Gidorick

lordrichter wrote: »

In other words, ain't gonna happen.

Yea, I know @lordrichter... but I like to hope.

Volkodav

I'd die happy if they gave us the Wicked Witch from Wizard of Oz as a costume.For Halloween.

Jitterbug

Makkir wrote: »

I really want to call you a nerd Gid, but I love your posts way too much.

^

Gidorick

Well... today is the day of the Witches Festival and the polymorphs that are being advertised as being for this day are not available.

Such is the way it goes I guess.

UltimaJoe777

From a business standpoint they had to get it in for Halloween and in that regard the timing was well done.

From a lore standpoint they simplify it in the descriptions so it does not necessarily tie to the Witches' Festival but I can definitely understand your perspective here. My solution:

The Witches' Festival was a huge success! The summonings, however, got a little out of control... Many people have become infected with a plague that has been sweeping across Tamriel for over a week now and the effects are finally starting to kick in. These people are either turning into Lurchers with Pumpkin Heads or Scarecrows mixed with Spriggan Essence... We do not know if we can cure this but we must try! If we do not, all of Tamriel may be doomed and the Witches' Festival forfeit.

Feel free to critique lol

Ghrimn

@Gidorick
Correction: It's like they're trying to sell Easter eggs for Christmas on the 3rd of January in northern Africa.

Elsonso

Gidorick wrote: »

This was posted today. October 22nd... 8 days after the witches festival. This is like releasing Christmas items on January 3rd.

At what point should we just start thinking that they think we're idiots?

8 days after the Witches' Festival, as it was celebrated in Tamriel around 3E390.

I was very serious in that other thread about the movement of the holiday to make room for the birthday of an Emperor yet to be born. It is common to take over or move holidays to make room for more important events, and the birthday of the Emperor certainly qualifies. There are a lot of days between 2E582 and 3E389, the exact number of which is uncertain.

The calendar in Elder Scrolls is a dodgy thing, at best. In Arena and Daggerfall, it was twelve 30 day months. Morrowind was modeled more on the Gregorian calendar, with some differences and errors. It was not until Oblivion and Skyrim that it started to follow the Gregorian calendar. Of course, ESO has no official calendar or method of tracking the passage of time within the game.

While it would have been cool to pay homage to Arena and put Witches' Festival on October 13, the truth of the matter is that it was mentioned directly in Arena, and was neither mentioned nor celebrated in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. I do not know whether it was mentioned in Daggerfall. Whatever this holiday is, by the end of the 3rd Era, it is forgotten.

Should ZOS decide to roll out a Loremaster article sometime in the next week or so that puts Witches' Festival on a particular numeric day near the end of Frostfall, that date is canon for 2E582. UESP would be updated before the sun set. I am sure that Lawrence Schick is sitting around wasting away his days reading Cosmo, so it would give him something to do.

Gidorick

Ghrimn wrote: »

@Gidorick
Correction: It's like they're trying to sell Easter eggs for Christmas on the 3rd of January to someone who never heard about Easter or Christmas.

Lol! Correction accepted @ghrimm

I would have welcomed something along those lines @UltimaJoe777. I've previously saps:

Gidorick wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

So much for in-game events. More crown store nonsense(I know, I know, development needs funding). /yawn

One would HOPE that a bunch of monsters spawn on Frostfall the 13th all across Tamriel for us to fight. That would be fitting the lore.

The fact is, these creatures were not in ESO on the 13th, not that I saw.

Gidorick

lordrichter wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

This was posted today. October 22nd... 8 days after the witches festival. This is like releasing Christmas items on January 3rd.

At what point should we just start thinking that they think we're idiots?

8 days after the Witches' Festival, as it was celebrated in Tamriel around 3E390.

I was very serious in that other thread about the movement of the holiday to make room for the birthday of an Emperor yet to be born. It is common to take over or move holidays to make room for more important events, and the birthday of the Emperor certainly qualifies. There are a lot of days between 2E582 and 3E389, the exact number of which is uncertain.

The calendar in Elder Scrolls is a dodgy thing, at best. In Arena and Daggerfall, it was twelve 30 day months. Morrowind was modeled more on the Gregorian calendar, with some differences and errors. It was not until Oblivion and Skyrim that it started to follow the Gregorian calendar. Of course, ESO has no official calendar or method of tracking the passage of time within the game.

While it would have been cool to pay homage to Arena and put Witches' Festival on October 13, the truth of the matter is that it was mentioned directly in Arena, and was neither mentioned nor celebrated in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. I do not know whether it was mentioned in Daggerfall. Whatever this holiday is, by the end of the 3rd Era, it is forgotten.

Should ZOS decide to roll out a Loremaster article sometime in the next week or so that puts Witches' Festival on a particular numeric day near the end of Frostfall, that date is canon for 2E582. UESP would be updated before the sun set. I am sure that Lawrence Schick is sitting around wasting away his days reading Cosmo, so it would give him something to do.

I would welcome this @lordrichter... but right now your explanation is just fan fiction.

dodgehopper_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I have an ingame clock that calculates time since the game was released, apprantley its not the 13th of frostfall infact its far from it.

That's pretty cool. I actually have a pretty robust concept that would make it so that each day in ESO is one day in tamriel, so there would be like 4 ESO years per 1 earth year.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/171830/day-length-adjustment-holiday-implementation-concept

This would mean that the Witches Festival would happen multiple times per year, not just once.

There are multiple ways to make this sort of thing "OK" with us lore-immersionists.

Actually I love that idea Gidorick. One thing I love about playing Skyrim and its predecessors is the way it tracks the seasons. I love the way the seasons mean something, and even the way time passes as you're busily building your home or crafting (Hearthfire: Yeah I know pretty lame as DLC goes, but it was great for the crafting/storage side of the game, and something we can only dream of in ESO. It also gave me the ability to create a network of travel areas throughout the world).
I think part of that subtle enjoyment of the seasons in Skyrim, was the ambient music. I really wish some of the gentle music took more importance in the MMO, and some of the more intense music could take a back seat. I'm really not a fan of that 'exciting music' score they slam you with when you first enter Cyrodiil, for instance. That score might be acceptable for another game, but it really doesn't fit the series. I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but while I'm on my soapbox I'd like to add that I really wish the Title Score that was present in the last few games would show up on the Title screen AT LEAST in ESO, and perhaps elsewhere in the game.

All this said, I probably wouldn't buy these holiday items. I'm not big into Halloween or Halloween related junk. I may enjoy the Walking Dead, but generally speaking I hate zombies, slashers, and most everything that tends to show up on television during Halloween (I do like good thrillers though, but they are more down to earth). I liked Arvak in the Dragonborn DLC of Skyrim though, so go figure. Arvak is more special though, since you actually earn him, and it felt special in part because when I earned Arvak it was an actual surprise to me. This is something about Cash Shops in mmo's that generally isn't very fun. When I feel like I earn something IN GAME it has so much more meaning to me than some bling I picked off the crown store. I realize its great for the bottom line, but the truth is as a consumer I rarely make purchases of this kind. The only two Crown store Items I have purchased so far is the Elemental Ice Horse, and the Tesselated Guar (even then I have over 10k Crowns). I had no real use for either of those, I just thought the elemental horse would look cool (and sometimes make me laugh) with a mage and the guar would look awesome with my dunmer and argonian characters. The thing about this is I've gotten enough 'wierd mounts' now that I don't foresee myself getting anything new unless they release a camel, elephant or wamasu.

The costume store is another issue entirely. I really wish they would have copied DCUO for character appearance. The costumes look great, don't get me wrong, but I don't understand what the point was for them to create color stations or crafting if we have so little control on how our characters look. The costumes have one benefit though, and that's to hide what your actual armor loadout is in Cyrodiil. I guess in that respect it gives players options to hide their vampirism (excluding addons) or to hide their armor type. I just wish that the armors we earned and gained physical copies of would fall in this list, because at least they feel like they were earned (Like the Peasants garb in Stros M'kai).

Elsonso

Gidorick wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

This was posted today. October 22nd... 8 days after the witches festival. This is like releasing Christmas items on January 3rd.

At what point should we just start thinking that they think we're idiots?

8 days after the Witches' Festival, as it was celebrated in Tamriel around 3E390.

I was very serious in that other thread about the movement of the holiday to make room for the birthday of an Emperor yet to be born. It is common to take over or move holidays to make room for more important events, and the birthday of the Emperor certainly qualifies. There are a lot of days between 2E582 and 3E389, the exact number of which is uncertain.

The calendar in Elder Scrolls is a dodgy thing, at best. In Arena and Daggerfall, it was twelve 30 day months. Morrowind was modeled more on the Gregorian calendar, with some differences and errors. It was not until Oblivion and Skyrim that it started to follow the Gregorian calendar. Of course, ESO has no official calendar or method of tracking the passage of time within the game.

While it would have been cool to pay homage to Arena and put Witches' Festival on October 13, the truth of the matter is that it was mentioned directly in Arena, and was neither mentioned nor celebrated in Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. I do not know whether it was mentioned in Daggerfall. Whatever this holiday is, by the end of the 3rd Era, it is forgotten.

Should ZOS decide to roll out a Loremaster article sometime in the next week or so that puts Witches' Festival on a particular numeric day near the end of Frostfall, that date is canon for 2E582. UESP would be updated before the sun set. I am sure that Lawrence Schick is sitting around wasting away his days reading Cosmo, so it would give him something to do.

I would welcome this @lordrichter... but right now your explanation is just fan fiction.

Yes, my little Emperor story is fan fiction and you can accept it or not. I am certain that an amateur historian on Vvardefell will write this around 4E427 when he compiles a list of forgotten holidays. Given my omnicient knowledge of what will happen on Vvardenfell shortly after that, I can say that we may not see it. Hmmm. Now that I have revealed that this document exists, it is only a matter of time before Hermaeus Mora's piddling with documents written in the future drops it into a bookshelf somewhere.

Fan fiction aside, I can assure you from an Elder Scrolls lore perspective that, if Witches' Festival is observed in 2E582, it did not happen on the 13th day of Frostfall. I was there. It did not happen. The only question that remains is, if it is observed in 2E582, what day does it happen on?

Gidorick

@Lyrander, it's more that the less we care about these things, the more ZOS will push the game into lore-unfriendliness. I've been with ESO since beta and been a fierce supporter of this game but it seems like month after month ZOS takes tiny little steps AWAY from "The Elder Scrolls".

And no, I won't just "pretend" that ZOS' lazy implementation of the lore is ok.

Lastly, you don't have to attack me personally for protesting the way ZOS is handling the Witches Festival.

Elsonso

Gidorick wrote: »

@Lyrander, it's more that the less we care about these things, the more ZOS will push the game into lore-unfriendliness. I've been with ESO since beta and been a fierce supporter of this game but it seems like month after month ZOS takes tiny little steps AWAY from "The Elder Scrolls".

And no, I won't just "pretend" that ZOS' lazy implantation of the lore is ok.

Lastly, you don't have to attack me personally for protesting the way ZOS is handling the Witches Festival.

I was with you in the sense that ZOS could have used October 13, but you are taking this a tad too seriously, even for me.

If I might direct your attention to the US Decoration Day, for a moment. This was a traditional observance that happened on on May 30 of every year for 100 years following the Civil War. You can look it up if you want all the details. Since 1971, people in the US have observed the official federal holiday called Memorial Day on the last Monday of May. Same thing, different name and different date.

For 102 years, people in the US observed the holiday on May 30 and called it Decoration Day. For 44 years the people in the US have observed the holiday on the last Monday in May and have called it Memorial Day. Which one is more lore appropriate? (The answer is: they are both equally lore appropriate)

Two lessons here.

1. Holidays and days of observance do change dates, and even names, over time.
2. Minor changes in lore between two periods in time do not invalidate the lore

ZOS not observing Witches' Festival on Oct 13 was a missed opportunity related to Arena, but it does not break lore, ignore lore, or even bend the lore. The costumes and mounts offered for this limited time only are within the spirit of the holiday, as described in Daggerfall... if people of this Era dress up for holidays in this manner. (and who is to say they do not?) (While I do not like the Jack-o-lantern costume, my dislike is based entirely upon the fact that there is a whole world of possible costumes for Witches' Festival that they could have selected from that would have been more Elder Scrolls than one based on The Legend of Sleepy Hollow.)

The lore for Witches' Festival in this Era is being established right now. It would be nice if they formalized it, but technically, any player who is a wordsmith that sits down and describes the Witches' Festival this year from the perspective of their character and posts it here on the forum has added to the Elder Scrolls lore and it is an account of what happened. You call it fan fiction, but it is still an account from someone who lived at the time and participated in the events. Perhaps 1000 years from now, one of those accounts will be found in some obscure location during the events of TES VI.

TL;DR: ZOS has not broken lore with the date change. The costumes and horses are within the spirit of the description from TES II: Daggerfall, even if they could have done better in topic selection. If you are concerned about the Lore being established correctly, hold a Witches' Festival party and write an account of what happened and post it here.

GuyNamedSean

I'm giving them a pass because they at least tried.

Gidorick

@lordrichter, mostly it's just little things that keep adding up. An Ice horse... a fire horse... a new currency... a Halloween costume or two paraded as a Witches Festival item.

I have clamored for one thing since the Crown Store began, for the items to be intelligently and creatively included in Tamriel. ZOS could have released a bit of lore. The thoughts that you have laid out makes an amazing amount of sense. I would completely welcome such a change to the witches festival. I'm just not willing to accept made up fan-fiction as justification for these items. ZOS should put in the effort themselves.

And, I'll admit, I'm presenting myself as being more upset about this than I actually am because I believe the underlying issue is a major problem that really should be addressed internally at ZOS.

I actually don't have a problem with there being fire mounts, ice horses, pumpkin heads or scarecrows in ESO. I have a problem with them being included in such a half-hearted ham-fisted way. A little creativity and a little finesse isn't too much to ask. If they don't want to give us new lore or in-game contextual explanations for things, that's fine, but then they really should then follow the established lore.

And the witches festival wasn't a time of "fun"... from what we know. It is a fearful time when "Most wise men choose not to wander this night." It is the summoning day for Mephala. It's not a time of "dressing up" it's a time to be cautious, or it's a time for the brave to take up their arms and strike down the conjuring's of the Demonologists, conjurors, lamias, warlocks, and thaumaturgists that have come together to spread fear and mayhem.

While I agree with the spirit of your suggestion, that lore is a personal, growing, and ever evolving thing, I disagree that it is a solution to ZOS' continued lackadaisical approach to making the Crown Store items they design feel like they belong in Tamriel. There's a difference between MY story and my character's view on lore and the canonical lore that is handed to us by Bethesda and ZOS.

What we have right now in the crown store are items that relate more closely to the real world holiday of Halloween than they relate to the Witches Festival, no matter how much I like them (and I REALLY do! I was floored by the detail on the Pumpkin polymorph and the zombie horse). This apparent misappropriation of the lore is aggravated by the release window.

It's like we get the Polymorphs from a data mine and some of us are upset by this and then we go "Ok ZOS... we can accept these as Witches Festival items." and ZOS releases them for Halloween, missing the actual date of the festival. My honest reaction is closer to "Aw, come on guys." facepalm than it is a rage-fit that you see in this thread.

Now, after saying all that. I will also admit that I have become a bit defensive about this specific issues because I have keep getting the "get over it" response from the community and no response from ZOS. I do believe these issues should be voiced and opinions, even unpopular ones, must be heard. Especially when it concerns the integrity of the game. Because if I stop caring about the fact that there is no fire horse represented in the game and I stop caring about the fact that they are masquerading halloween items in ESO as witches festival items , I loose the primary reason I'm playing ESO... and I'll just go play something else.

I'm sure right now many of you are thinking "Yea Gid. You should."

Isbilen

1 day IRL does not = 1 day in-game time. Unless anyone knows which day it was in Tamriel when the servers opened and how many day/night cycles have passed in the game since then, who's to say yesterday wasn't the 13th?

Ghrimn

@Isbilen
The release day for TESO was April 4, 2014. So I think we can all agree that the starting day for the game is Rain's Hand 4, 2E 582. ZOS has mentioned that 24h in real life = 4 days in-game. From April 4, 2014 to October 22, 2015, 567 passed. That means that 2268 have passed in ESO. Which means that yesterday was Mid Year 19, 2E 588.

Elsonso

Gidorick wrote: »

Now, after saying all that. I will also admit that I have become a bit defensive about this specific issues because I have keep getting the "get over it" response from the community and no response from ZOS. I do believe these issues should be voiced and opinions, even unpopular ones, must be heard. Especially when it concerns the integrity of the game. Because if I stop caring about the fact that there is no fire horse represented in the game and I stop caring about the fact that they are masquerading halloween items in ESO as witches festival items , I loose the primary reason I'm playing ESO... and I'll just go play something else.

I'm sure right now many of you are thinking "Yea Gid. You should."

Nah, I don't think that it is time to leave, yet.

It is obvious that ZeniBeth is actually more interested in Halloween than they are Witches' Festival, but that does not mean the whole thing it a total loss as far as Elder Scrolls is concerned. There is lore there, and part of what I said was just that it does not matter what ZOS does, so long as ZOS does not bury the lore under Troll poop. With what there is today, there is room for lore and for ZOS to do the happy dance for the Great Pumpkin.

The upcoming assault by ZeniBeth marketing for Christmas will be epic compared to this little issue with Halloween. There are a ton of lore friendly things that they could do in December that are not Christmas, but would be fun to do. It makes me sad to know that they won't be doing any of those things. Whatever special observances that happen in Tamriel during Evening Star will be morphed into something "Christmas-y" so that they can capitalize on it for revenue. Like with Halloween, costumes, mounts, and other Crown Store merchandise, will contain the necessary iconic references so that everyone sees "Christmas" but the words they put below those pictures will be some Tamrielic holiday that no one will care about... because CHRISTMAS!

It remains to be seen whether Elder Scrolls and CHRISTMAS! can coexist in the game.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

I am sure that Lawrence Schick is sitting around wasting away his days reading Cosmo, so it would give him something to do.

Oooooh, can he read it aloud on camera? He has an amazing voice and that is the only way that drivel would be acceptable.