Nightblades - How do you feel about Siphoning Strikes since its update?

Alucardo

Not having to toggle it is pretty nice, also the fact we don't have to hit like a wet noodle any more is great. But I just don't feel like this ability is worth it. Having to constantly back off while shooting a billion light attacks just to get enough stamina back I could have done in one heavy attack seems kind of stupid. Once again, I've removed it. Wondering if you guys have had more success or if this spell went the way of the dodo for your builds too?

ThatNeonZebraAgain

As I tank, SA is still a core part of my build. However, I really, really dislike the change because it adds another short-timed buff I have to keep track of that gets in the way of other things I have to do for my group. Having the buff turn off in the middle of a hectic fight (trying to kite, taunt, roll dodge to avoid aoe, rez, etc) when it didn't used to is simply an annoyance and not a real challenge to gameplay. I'd much rather have the toggle and damage penalty back, even if they keep the flat values instead of % stat return.

The change also seems somewhat arbitrary, which doesn't feel good as a player. The nerfs to SA (removal of toggle and changing from % to flat value) were a direct effect of the change to halting stam regen while blocking, however ZOS left DK's Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives alone so that they still replenish % of stats instead of flat values (see Scribes DK build for a demonstration on DK's virtually unlimited stamina replenishing). On top of that, this is the second time a key element of the class has been negatively affected by broader game changes. The first time was back with Update 1.6 when they took away Potion Effectiveness passive and replaced with it a really really crappy alternative (this change doubly affected Argonian NBs who could stack Potion Effectiveness passives). I think SA would have been OP if it had stayed the same, but, like everyone was saying in the PTS forum, all they needed to do was tweak the values, not remove the toggle.

Alucardo

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

As I tank, SA is still a core part of my build. However, I really, really dislike the change because it adds another short-timed buff I have to keep track of that gets in the way of other things I have to do for my group. Having the buff turn off in the middle of a hectic fight (trying to kite, taunt, roll dodge to avoid aoe, rez, etc) when it didn't used to is simply an annoyance and not a real challenge to gameplay. I'd much rather have the toggle and damage penalty back, even if they keep the flat values instead of % stat return.

The change also seems somewhat arbitrary, which doesn't feel good as a player. The nerfs to SA (removal of toggle and changing from % to flat value) were a direct effect of the change to halting stam regen while blocking, however ZOS left DK's Battle Roar and Helping Hands passives alone so that they still replenish % of stats instead of flat values. On top of that, this is the second time a key element of the class has been negatively affected by broader game changes. The first time was back with Update 1.6 when they took away Potion Effectiveness passive and replaced with it a really really crappy alternative (this change doubly affected Argonian NBs who could stack Potion Effectiveness passives). I think SA would have been OP if it had stayed the same, but, like everyone was saying in the PTS forum, all they needed to do was tweak the values, not remove the toggle.

Yeah, I can see how being a tank it would directly affect you. As a DPS, this change is just as useless as the original to me, so I wouldn't care if it got reverted. As it stands I can't see many people using this ability at all which is why I posed the question. At least the toggle state, tanks could use it effectively. Now it seems it's crappy from all perspectives. I tried it in PVP and it's just not worth it. Give me battle roar any day.

Blackjak-33

Not to mention the cost to cast it every 15 sec makes the magicka return from the skill useless now.

Alucardo

Blackjak-33 wrote: »

Not to mention the cost to cast it every 15 sec makes the magicka return from the skill useless now.

That's true. I don't even get enough magicka back to cover what it cost to cast Siphoning strikes. Generally I'll start light attacking then some butt head will be up in my face, so I can't even normal attack at that point. It just seems like a really useless ability to gap-fill the Siphoning skill tree.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Alucardo wrote: »

Blackjak-33 wrote: »

Not to mention the cost to cast it every 15 sec makes the magicka return from the skill useless now.

That's true. I don't even get enough magicka back to cover what it cost to cast Siphoning strikes. Generally I'll start light attacking then some butt head will be up in my face, so I can't even normal attack at that point. It just seems like a really useless ability to gap-fill the Siphoning skill tree.

This is one of the reasons why I switched my NB tank to a magicka build. The cost of the ability is almost negligible thanks to cost reduction and magicka recovery. I can afford to keep my stamina recovery somewhat low since SA still works pretty well even if it is a hassle, and if I have a Templar healer then I really never run out of stamina.

Yakidafi

I like the change and I get a lot of resources back from this skill.

1 LA = cost of skill, how you can not recover?

Guess it work different depending on playstyle. I used it both on magicka and stamina builds.

pjwb16_ESO

The old SA wa sbetter imo, it scaled from percentages of your ressources instead that crappy numbers we got now -.-

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Yakidafi wrote: »

I like the change and I get a lot of resources back from this skill.

1 LA = cost of skill, how you can not recover?

Guess it work different depending on playstyle. I used it both on magicka and stamina builds.

If you're holding block against 15+ mobs you can't afford to drop block to do a basic attack.

Alucardo

Yakidafi wrote: »

I like the change and I get a lot of resources back from this skill.

1 LA = cost of skill, how you can not recover?

Guess it work different depending on playstyle. I used it both on magicka and stamina builds.

How? There's no way I'm getting back 2k resources from a single light attack.

Blackjak-33

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Blackjak-33 wrote: »

Not to mention the cost to cast it every 15 sec makes the magicka return from the skill useless now.

That's true. I don't even get enough magicka back to cover what it cost to cast Siphoning strikes. Generally I'll start light attacking then some butt head will be up in my face, so I can't even normal attack at that point. It just seems like a really useless ability to gap-fill the Siphoning skill tree.

This is one of the reasons why I switched my NB tank to a magicka build. The cost of the ability is almost negligible thanks to cost reduction and magicka recovery. I can afford to keep my stamina recovery somewhat low since SA still works pretty well even if it is a hassle, and if I have a Templar healer then I really never run out of stamina.

I'm definitely a magicka NB tank, but the cost of the skill still sucks. I use magicka/stam Regen drink along with 4 pieces of the Seducer set and with that I can definitely run Siphoning Attacks.

Yakidafi

Alucardo wrote: »

Yakidafi wrote: »

I like the change and I get a lot of resources back from this skill.

1 LA = cost of skill, how you can not recover?

Guess it work different depending on playstyle. I used it both on magicka and stamina builds.

How? There's no way I'm getting back 2k resources from a single light attack.

It's about 1k with v14 gold magick cost reduction, 2.4k for stamina no reduction. but yeah 900 back in one LA.

Reeko

I say leave it as a buff but bring back the %

GreenSoup2HoT

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

Elijah_Crow

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

I thought this didn't work with caltrops any longer?

GreenSoup2HoT

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

I thought this didn't work with caltrops any longer?

Caltrops dosent proc the ravager set or imperial passive red diamond that require melee attack's. However caltrops still proc's the 10% chance for 2k every tick with caltrops. Which happen's a lot, not sure if intended but i can sap tank with it and perma block... So i dont mind.

Even on my dw/bow build, i through caltrops, pop siphoning, lay down some arrow barrage and continue to spam flying blade. I hardly run out of resource's.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

I thought this didn't work with caltrops any longer?

Caltrops dosent proc the ravager set or imperial passive red diamond that require melee attack's. However caltrops still proc's the 10% chance for 2k every tick with caltrops. Which happen's a lot, not sure if intended but i can sap tank with it and perma block... So i dont mind.

Even on my dw/bow build, i through caltrops, pop siphoning, lay down some arrow barrage and continue to spam flying blade. I hardly run out of resource's.

This is correct. It is likely a bug that they haven't fixed yet since they changed "melee" procs, but for now Caltrops still procs SA and it is glorious (as it always has been).

13igTyme

There is still an option for the toggle. Now we have more options, which is better.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

13igTyme wrote: »

There is still an option for the toggle. Now we have more options, which is better.

But that option is really bad for both healing or resource management.

Alucardo

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

Not quite rank 6 yet, so can't get Caltrops unfortunately. I thought it just worked with basic attacks? Seems kind of weird you're getting resources back from a DoT. I can't imagine it'll be something they fix seems it's very low priority and SA is useless without it, so sounds like a good solution.

Shunravi

Alucardo wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

Not quite rank 6 yet, so can't get Caltrops unfortunately. I thought it just worked with basic attacks? Seems kind of weird you're getting resources back from a DoT. I can't imagine it'll be something they fix seems it's very low priority and SA is useless without it, so sounds like a good solution.

You are thinking siphoning/leaching strikes. Siphoning attacks has a chance to proc off any ability damage. I have it procking off path too.

J2JMC

I don't have the new morph yet but from just the base skill I love it. As a stam nightblade, I don't run out of stamina doing single target dps. My bar actually doesn't go below 80 percent if I keep the buff up constantly. It's beautiful. 2 cost reduction rings plus v16 endurance for the stam recovery make the ability really useful.

ninjaguyman

Its decent on my nb tank, but its duration is a little too short i think. I wanted it to be on my back bar, but i had swap it to my main bar because i have to refresh it so much

Resipsa131

It's hard to tell when its run its course, they need to change the effect to neon green. As a Magicka NB with red effects being sucked in with funnel health and sap essence its hard to tell are my weapons red or is that the effect from veil of blades, fh, se, etc.

Also does anyone know if the 5 set bonus from Redistributor works on fh or se?

ThatNeonZebraAgain

ninjaguyman wrote: »

Its decent on my nb tank, but its duration is a little too short i think. I wanted it to be on my back bar, but i had swap it to my main bar because i have to refresh it so much

Same.

Resipsa131

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

I thought this didn't work with caltrops any longer?

Caltrops dosent proc the ravager set or imperial passive red diamond that require melee attack's. However caltrops still proc's the 10% chance for 2k every tick with caltrops. Which happen's a lot, not sure if intended but i can sap tank with it and perma block... So i dont mind.

Even on my dw/bow build, i through caltrops, pop siphoning, lay down some arrow barrage and continue to spam flying blade. I hardly run out of resource's.

This is correct. It is likely a bug that they haven't fixed yet since they changed "melee" procs, but for now Caltrops still procs SA and it is glorious (as it always has been).

doesnt twisting path proc?

code65536

Resipsa131 wrote: »

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Siphoning attacks is great with caltrops. The resources you get from this alone is worth it. If you dont use these two together, no point using it

I thought this didn't work with caltrops any longer?

Caltrops dosent proc the ravager set or imperial passive red diamond that require melee attack's. However caltrops still proc's the 10% chance for 2k every tick with caltrops. Which happen's a lot, not sure if intended but i can sap tank with it and perma block... So i dont mind.

Even on my dw/bow build, i through caltrops, pop siphoning, lay down some arrow barrage and continue to spam flying blade. I hardly run out of resource's.

This is correct. It is likely a bug that they haven't fixed yet since they changed "melee" procs, but for now Caltrops still procs SA and it is glorious (as it always has been).

doesnt twisting path proc?

Any damage will have a chance to proc it. Since it procs on damage, any AoE is good, since if you're hitting 5 enemies, you have 5x the proc chance than if you were just hitting a single target. Any AoE, whether it be caltrops (it's the best, due to the huge radius and long duration), path (any morph), veil of blades, or sap essence.

GreenSoup2HoT

@code65536 ive tested. Ults only proc the 10% on initial cast. Dot damage does nothing

ThatNeonZebraAgain

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@code65536 ive tested. Ults only proc the 10% on initial cast. Dot damage does nothing

This is correct, and why Caltrops is so great. AoEs like Twisting Path and Sap Essence have a chance to proc SA for each enemy it hits on its first initial hit. Sap Essence is great for proccing SA when fighting lots of enemies as it heals, hits 360 degrees around you, and does good damage. Twisting Path can proc SA off its initial cast (again, if you hit more enemies you'll have more chances to proc SA), but the subsequent static DoT ticks will not proc SA. Caltrops treats each "tick" as its own separate attack, not to mention it lasts a really long time and has a huge radius. Structured Entropy or Swallow Soul make for great single-target attacks to weave with light attacks (they are cheap, have good range, and have decent heals and slotted buffs) to help proc SA/restore resources during long boss fights where you can't lay down good AoE, have to kite, etc.

GreenSoup2HoT

@ThatNeonZebraAgain Just to confirm, Caltrop's can proc siphoning attack's (10% chance) every 1 second someone is on the caltrop's. It proc's a lot if you throw it on a group.

I would say, the only reason to use siphoning attack's is if you plan on Zerging and laying down some heavy AOE. I can spam my bow AOE's when there are enough people on my caltrop's.

xaraan

As a tank, I hate it. The useful one is the one that is not the toggle, so that was a horrible move - they should have just not bothered.

As a DPS, it's ok, but it should last longer. There is a weird disconnect between buffs and duration between classes and various skill trees IMO.