Save ESO from the Champion System

UltimaJoe777

On a logical basis I still don't get what people have against CP. I currently have 17 CPs and couldn't care less how far behind others I am. Just means I have more to work for to be on even ground stat-wise. Beyond that only reasons that make sense are as follows:

1. They only care about PvP and cba to grind. Their problem though, not the game's.
2. Rubberbanders abound! Maybe the suggestion I posted in Ask Us Anything can be looked into though and if it is rubberbanding goes out the window.
3. Same ol' "I got beat up in Cryodiil waaaah!" story where frustration overwrites logic.

I'll say this though: Wait until Zenimax figures out how they plan to get rid of Vet Ranks and then talk about the CS being good or bad because frankly this same story gets old fast.

lathbury

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

To quote the OP: "Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?" It's saying exactly this, yes.

Again you make a logical leap by saying that the op stating equal cp .... to all players equal regardless of time played. as even with a gear progression or capped vertical system people will be further along depending on dedication just not ridiculously so.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Compared to which vertical progression? Levels? Not changed since initial release. Veteran Ranks? Raised by 6 in approximately one year. Are 3600 CP worth 6 VR? Hardly. And the whole point of a horizontal system ist that it's being grinded out slowly, ideally with diminishing returns, because it is, as I said above, intended as a long-term motivational goal. Which MMOs need.

compared to any progression system any system where you gain stats and damage/ reduction modifiers can not be classed as horizontal. For a second though lets look at the other vertical progression sytem in game VR as you brought it up. As a long term motivational thing not great but it did not imbalance the game and create huge devides in the player base as the cp system has. It also didnt give the added headache of trying to balance new game content around a player base spread so widely.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Then please read the paragraph again. The point was that some MMOs only have the (vertical) gear grind, which gets invalidated every time level caps rise, and nothing else. A horizontal system is ideally not influenced by this, it's progress level is preserved even when changes to other power level system happen.

you say a horizontal progression system is ideally not influenced by gear progression as well. not only is the current advancement system not horizontal. It is also affected by gear being made obsolete every update eg what jewlery is being used and farmed at the moment.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

So you're trying to say that every developer who iterates on systems, in order to optimize them, to make them more viable or acceptable, or plainly more working as intended, is admitting they've got it completely and utterly wrong the first time around? Well...

they arent iterating or optimizing that would imply they are changing the numbers a bit on some passives. by capping it the are admitting that it fails as a horizontal system as its vertical and are now limiting the verticality if it a bit like .... you guessed it VR ranks. Also the dev in charge of the CP system left so its not exactly an iteration or tweak its more like damage control.

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

If you care to remember, the Champion System was introduced at the expressed wishes of the players, who wouldn't or couldn't accept the VR system as a long-term motivational goal (sometimes even for the right reasons). So yes, the introduction of the CS can be taken as an admission that the VR system was not capable of doing what it was intended to do. So we got the CS instead, which is, all in all, a better approach. It's not perfect yet, so of course there will be tweaks. But the answer to the original question, whether the game would be better off without it (same as if everyone had exactly the same amount of CP), is still no.

I do remember the cs sytem being introduced as a cure for the vr ''problem'' (never saw it myself). so they listened to players complaining about the grind and not feeling rewarded and introduced a bigger grind alienating returning players, casual players and potential new players in the proccess.

Finally saying they are implementing caps and a catchup mechanism is not a hint.
hint
hɪnt/Submit
noun
1.
a slight or indirect indication or suggestion.
"he has given no hint of his views"
synonyms: clue, inkling, suggestion, indication, indicator, sign, signal, pointer, intimation, insinuation, innuendo, mention, allusion, whisper, a word to the wise
"he had given no hint that he was going to leave"
2.
a small piece of practical information or advice.
"handy hints on saving energy in your home"
synonyms: tip, suggestion, piece of advice, word of advice, pointer, clue, cue, guideline, recommendation; More
verb
1.
suggest or indicate something indirectly or covertly.
"the Minister hinted at a possible change of heart"
synonyms: imply, insinuate, intimate, suggest, indicate, signal, whisper, give a clue, give an inkling, let it be known, allude to the fact, make a reference to the fact, refer to the fact, give someone to understand, give someone to believe; More
There is nothing covert by having Eric wrobel say they are implementing one on ESO live

evoga

Are there going to be CP free campaigns?

That would be awesome as I can just play the game for fun which the CP grinders seem to miss instead treating the game as a job.

UltimaJoe777

evoga wrote: »

Are there going to be CP free campaigns?

That would be awesome as I can just play the game for fun which the CP grinders seem to miss instead treating the game as a job.

I myself haven't heard of Zenimax planning this but feel free to ask them that in Ask Us Anything and see if they respond.

KhajitFurTrader

lathbury wrote: »

you make a logical leap by saying that the op stating equal cp .... to all players equal regardless of time played. as even with a gear progression or capped vertical system people will be further along depending on dedication just not ridiculously so.

Please read carefully: the OP asked whether the game would be better of with everyone having the same amount of CP. Neither he, nor I for that matter, imply that this would make everyone equal in all regards of power levels the game has to offer. But it would make the CP system rather pointless.

lathbury wrote: »

compared to any progression system any system where you gain stats and damage/ reduction modifiers can not be classed as horizontal. For a second though lets look at the other vertical progression sytem in game VR as you brought it up. As a long term motivational thing not great but it did not imbalance the game and create huge devides in the player base as the cp system has. It also didnt give the added headache of trying to balance new game content around a player base spread so widely..

It's so funny you should say this, because these were the exact arguments that were brought into the field against the VR system in the first place, and which eventually led to the development of the Champion System.

lathbury wrote: »

finally saying they are implementing caps and a catchup mechanism is not a hint.

If you know more than the rest of us, then please share it. What is planned exactly (e.g. cap values, diminishing returns, time frames etc.), and when will it be released?

lathbury

Also @KhajitFurTrader I think myself and a few others don't see amassing a huge number of CP an ideal ''long term motivational goal'' for any MMO never-mind one with the Elder scrolls IP I want the motivation to be exploring new areas clearing difficult content. we also have leaderboards and PVP we dont need a 2 year grind there are plenty of f2p Korean MMO's for that.

Funkopotamus

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

you make a logical leap by saying that the op stating equal cp .... to all players equal regardless of time played. as even with a gear progression or capped vertical system people will be further along depending on dedication just not ridiculously so.

Please read carefully: the OP asked whether the game would be better of with everyone having the same amount of CP. Neither he, nor I for that matter, imply that this would make everyone equal in all regards of power levels the game has to offer. But it would make the CP system rather pointless.

lathbury wrote: »

compared to any progression system any system where you gain stats and damage/ reduction modifiers can not be classed as horizontal. For a second though lets look at the other vertical progression sytem in game VR as you brought it up. As a long term motivational thing not great but it did not imbalance the game and create huge devides in the player base as the cp system has. It also didnt give the added headache of trying to balance new game content around a player base spread so widely..

It's so funny you should say this, because these were the exact arguments that were brought into the field against the VR system in the first place, and which eventually led to the development of the Champion System.

lathbury wrote: »

finally saying they are implementing caps and a catchup mechanism is not a hint.

If you know more than the rest of us, then please share it. What is planned exactly (e.g. cap values, diminishing returns, time frames etc.), and when will it be released?

I will try to grab a link for you KhajitFur, but the poster is correct there was indeed mention from @ZOS people saying catch up mechanics were on the table and are being looked at.

CtrlAltDlt

gear, experience, and skill should be the deciding factor. Not the OP cp system

BuggeX

Funkopotamus wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

you make a logical leap by saying that the op stating equal cp .... to all players equal regardless of time played. as even with a gear progression or capped vertical system people will be further along depending on dedication just not ridiculously so.

Please read carefully: the OP asked whether the game would be better of with everyone having the same amount of CP. Neither he, nor I for that matter, imply that this would make everyone equal in all regards of power levels the game has to offer. But it would make the CP system rather pointless.

lathbury wrote: »

compared to any progression system any system where you gain stats and damage/ reduction modifiers can not be classed as horizontal. For a second though lets look at the other vertical progression sytem in game VR as you brought it up. As a long term motivational thing not great but it did not imbalance the game and create huge devides in the player base as the cp system has. It also didnt give the added headache of trying to balance new game content around a player base spread so widely..

It's so funny you should say this, because these were the exact arguments that were brought into the field against the VR system in the first place, and which eventually led to the development of the Champion System.

lathbury wrote: »

finally saying they are implementing caps and a catchup mechanism is not a hint.

If you know more than the rest of us, then please share it. What is planned exactly (e.g. cap values, diminishing returns, time frames etc.), and when will it be released?

I will try to grab a link for you KhajitFur, but the poster is correct there was indeed mention from @ZOS people saying catch up mechanics were on the table and are being looked at.

i remeber they said so in EsoLive.
They told us they are locking for a way to do it, but never said they ARE doing it.

UltimaJoe777

juan0316 wrote: »

gear, experience, and skill should be the deciding factor. Not the OP cp system

It isn't. People just blow it out of proportion because they blame it instead of those 3 things you just named with the former being the lesser thing. This is why people always go around saying "learn 2 play". Despite it's meme nature it is oft times true...

I do admit that if all 4 come in great quantity then that player is going to have an uber advantage but it's the experience and skill that matter the most, not in-game stats.

KhajitFurTrader

Funkopotamus wrote: »

I will try to grab a link for you KhajitFur, but the poster is correct there was indeed mention from @ZOS people saying catch up mechanics were on the table and are being looked at.

Well, that's what I thought I was saying when I wrote "All that being said, some sort of upcoming caps and/or catch-up mechanisms have been hinted at for the future, to mitigate both extremes in growth rates."

I guess this was formulated a bit too vague, as I was referring to my (vague) memory of something I read. But thank you if you can point us to an unambiguous source.

lathbury

[

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

you make a logical leap by saying that the op stating equal cp .... to all players equal regardless of time played. as even with a gear progression or capped vertical system people will be further along depending on dedication just not ridiculously so.

Please read carefully: the OP asked whether the game would be better of with everyone having the same amount of CP. Neither he, nor I for that matter, imply that this would make everyone equal in all regards of power levels the game has to offer. But it would make the CP system rather pointless.
here is where you took the op post about cp's and implied he wants all players equal

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

If all players were equal no matter how long they play individually, then again there would be next to no point in playing them.

lathbury wrote: »

compared to any progression system any system where you gain stats and damage/ reduction modifiers can not be classed as horizontal. For a second though lets look at the other vertical progression sytem in game VR as you brought it up. As a long term motivational thing not great but it did not imbalance the game and create huge devides in the player base as the cp system has. It also didnt give the added headache of trying to balance new game content around a player base spread so widely..

It's so funny you should say this, because these were the exact arguments that were brought into the field against the VR system in the first place, and which eventually led to the development of the Champion System.
Exactly my point you bash the VR system and are defending a more grindy capless vertical progression system. I think you missed my point. My point is that the cp sytem has done all this and more.

lathbury wrote: »

finally saying they are implementing caps and a catchup mechanism is not a hint.

If you know more than the rest of us, then please share it. What is planned exactly (e.g. cap values, diminishing returns, time frames etc.), and when will it be released?

Where did I claim to know more than anyone else what I do know is that eric wroble definitively stated they are implementing a catch up system. That is not a hint a hint would be ''we have something we are working on with the cp system'' IE something vague please read the definition of a hint I posted. It states vague or covert with synonyms like clue etc.

last eso live bout 24 mins in when she states its actively being worked on Eric wrobel gave better info during the Q and A

lathbury

right back to the grind but to do cp or gear in the new dungeons

grumlins

There's no problem with the champion system the leveling process while playing for champion points doesn't really cause a huge gap it doesn't make it seem like a grind like the standard leveling process.

What I would suggest they save this game from is the veteran system. If you want to make a difference I'd suggest you be against the ACTUAL grind.

Vangy

Dont think ZOS should remove CP or put in a seasonal CP system. Would waste all the effort grinders put into farming. Instead make IC and cyro have a non-CP campaign. So all the new players will go there and all the 1000 CP "pros" can beat on each other and it wont affect new players. I mean there is a non-vet campaign already. How hard could it be to implement a non-CP campaign

lathbury

grumlins wrote: »

There's no problem with the champion system the leveling process while playing for champion points doesn't really cause a huge gap it doesn't make it seem like a grind like the standard leveling process.

What I would suggest they save this game from is the veteran system. If you want to make a difference I'd suggest you be against the ACTUAL grind.

how so it takes a month tops to hit max vr the same cant be said for cp. also the difference between vr12 and vr 14 is something like 2% damage received and taken compared to 25% with CP's

Malmai

juan0316 wrote: »

gear, experience, and skill should be the deciding factor. Not the OP cp system

True

me_ming

BuggeX wrote: »

Dont tell me new ppls would stand a Chance even if they join instant with 3600, they simply would lack the experience ppls has with 500+ Cps.

That is the "Magick" about Cps

Yes, I would say this has happened many times. Your experience in combat would really not matter if you do the math. People with a lot more CP will have more sustain, more resources, more damage, etc that no matter how skillful you are, there is a very plausible chance that new players with 3600 CP will outplay the more veteran players with say only 300 CP.

UltimaJoe777

grumlins wrote: »

There's no problem with the champion system the leveling process while playing for champion points doesn't really cause a huge gap it doesn't make it seem like a grind like the standard leveling process.

What I would suggest they save this game from is the veteran system. If you want to make a difference I'd suggest you be against the ACTUAL grind.

They have already stated the Vet Rank system will be removed. All they have to do is figure out how to do so without creating too big a backlash. Until then it remains as originally planned.

Nivzruo_ESO

RSram wrote: »

So what you want is for casual players to get the same rewards for playing less than the dedicated players who spend more time playing?

That's like a grading system where the entire class is given the same grade based on the average grade of the class. So what's the point of working hard and earning an A when you know you have to share it with the losers who didn't work as hard you?

Nailed it. Be casual and get casual rewards.

crowfl56

Well I would ask ZOS to look at the accounts with 1k cp just might be interest just how they received those points.

Just remember so Grind's were EXPOITS, not all, but some where, and those players gained cp's at an unreal rate.

The first week had players with over 300 cp, those so called grinder's (exploiter) should have their points removed.

ZOS knows there was a problem and its all in those nasty grinder players.

Those player's are amazing on just how quickly they find a grind spot, and just how strongly they try to defend their grind as being just what the game intended, ROFLMAO>

Folks its not the CP system its your players.

KhajitFurTrader

lathbury wrote: »

how so it takes a month tops to hit max vr the same cant be said for cp.

Yes, and this is working as intended.

lathbury wrote: »

also the difference between vr12 and vr 14 is something like 2% damage received and taken compared to 25% with CP's

So, by your own calculation, getting from VR12 to VR14 should take no longer than (30d/16VR = 1.87 d/VR) 3.75 days. About four days of playing for 2% damage reduction. At that rate, you'd be at 25% DR in only 12.5 days, if it were possible.

But 25% DR via CS assumes maxed out CP. I seriously doubt this is possible to achieve in the same amount of time, which is exactly the point of the Champion System.

lathbury

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

So what you want is for casual players to get the same rewards for playing less than the dedicated players who spend more time playing?

That's like a grading system where the entire class is given the same grade based on the average grade of the class. So what's the point of working hard and earning an A when you know you have to share it with the losers who didn't work as hard you?

Nailed it. Be casual and get casual rewards.

more like grind mobs as opposed to doing things like vwtg and vicp then eventual with a few thousand cp you will not only do them but also stand a chance in pvp. all hail the massive skill of the guys running in circles in caves. I am really looking forward to the cap i hope its 350 or so.

utbackpacker911b14_ESO

The only thing that is broken about CP is the players that cry about it. People that have a ton of CP have worked their butts off for them and they deserve them! Bottom line! If you want more CP go get them,they are there for the taking. Linear to me would be stuck at level 50,no vet ranks,no CP,nothing to do,a straight line of nothingness.It doesn't matter what they implement into the game people will find something wrong with it and cry about it.

Its a cycle,even the more hardcore players get bored and take breaks from the game,mediocre players come up from behind and take the top.And that cycle keeps going around and around.If a new player comes to an MMO with the idea of being in the top ranks with little to no effort then they really didn't have any intentions on sticking around in the first place.

This is not a console game where you log on pick a weapon and go kill people,its an MMO.And I wish you console gamers would stop screwing up my MMO's!

I_killed_Vivec

When it was first announced, a lot of people were very enthusiastic about the "horizontal" progression that it would provide, compared to the hated (by some) vertical progression of VR...

How things have changed!

Uriel_Nocturne

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Grinders will always have lots more of everything than anyone else does.

Getting rid of the CP system won't change that. The grinders will simply find something else to replace it with.

Personally, I like the CP system. It adds another layer of depth and diversity to the game, and that's not a bad thing in my eyes.

Unless this issue is purely PvP whining... which I still don't see the issue. Look at my sig. I don't grind CP's, and have a really low number of them so far. I still get PvP kills easily when PvE questing in IC, and that's against people whose characters run the whole range of Vet Ranks.

lathbury

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

how so it takes a month tops to hit max vr the same cant be said for cp.

Yes, and this is working as intended.

lathbury wrote: »

also the difference between vr12 and vr 14 is something like 2% damage received and taken compared to 25% with CP's

So, by your own calculation, getting from VR12 to VR14 should take no longer than (30d/16VR = 1.87 d/VR) 3.75 days. About four days of playing for 2% damage reduction. At that rate, you'd be at 25% DR in only 12.5 days, if it were possible.

But 25% DR via CS assumes maxed out CP. I seriously doubt this is possible to achieve in the same amount of time, which is exactly the point of the Champion System.

but its not possible because of the cap thats my point you get to the cap after that its about gear and skill not about how long you can farm a loop of mobs for.

Malmai

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Grinders will always have lots more of everything than anyone else does.

Getting rid of the CP system won't change that. The grinders will simply find something else to replace it with.

Personally, I like the CP system. It adds another layer of depth and diversity to the game, and that's not a bad thing in my eyes.

Unless this issue is purely PvP whining... which I still don't see the issue. Look at my sig. I don't grind CP's, and have a really low number of them so far. I still get PvP kills easily when PvE questing in IC, and that's against people whose characters run the whole range of Vet Ranks.

Its not just pvp whining its changes a lot in pve as well... cant u see...

Brrrofski

You don't even have to grind cps. If did quests/pvp/dungeons for 2 hours a day you could easilly get two.

I don't see the problem with them.

Is it just people who play the game once in a blue moon and expect to be competitive that have them?

If you play a few hours a day, I fail to see the issue

UltimaJoe777

Malmai wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Grinders will always have lots more of everything than anyone else does.

Getting rid of the CP system won't change that. The grinders will simply find something else to replace it with.

Personally, I like the CP system. It adds another layer of depth and diversity to the game, and that's not a bad thing in my eyes.

Unless this issue is purely PvP whining... which I still don't see the issue. Look at my sig. I don't grind CP's, and have a really low number of them so far. I still get PvP kills easily when PvE questing in IC, and that's against people whose characters run the whole range of Vet Ranks.

Its not just pvp whining its changes a lot in pve as well... cant u see...

A PvEer whining about CPs causing a purely PvE disadvantage makes absolutely no sense because PvE does not scale to CPs. If someone in the PvE area happens to have a lot of CPs compared to you that is honestly a credit to the cause. Seriously do people even know what they're QQing over anymore?