Save ESO from the Champion System

BugCollector

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Paradox

That would make people even and rely far too much on individual skill and class balance. Something ZoS hates very much.

BugCollector

Paradox wrote: »

That would make people even and rely far too much on individual skill and class balance. Something ZoS hates very much.

Yea, skill should be THE factor that decides who wins and looses, not the amount of CP one has.

BEZDNA

Champion system is aweosme! Better save ESO from forum whiners.

KhajitFurTrader

BugCollector wrote: »

Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

In a word: no.

MMOs are very long-lived games which need to provide steady supplies of motivation to their players, otherwise there would be next to no point in playing them (social aspects notwithstanding).

MMOs also need incentives and reward mechanisms, in which the time invested playing them is directly proportional to a sense of progression and/or power level. If all players were equal no matter how long they play individually, then again there would be next to no point in playing them.

Some MMOs try to solve this solely with a gear grind, i.e. after reaching the level cap, progression in power is only to be had through gear, with everything this entails (e.g. regular invalidation of progress whenever the level cap is raised). ESO has multiple lanes of approaching this, and the Champion System as a horizontal leveling system is one of several. It's there (beside other systems) to provide long-term goals and thus, motivation, without invalidation of progress.

All that being said, some sort of upcoming caps and/or catch-up mechanisms have been hinted at for the future, to mitigate both extremes in growth rates.

Derra

I never understood when they copied the champion system from the D3 paragon system WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU COPY A NICE CHARACTER PROGRESSION SYSTEM BUT INSTEAD OF A LOGARITHMIC XP CURVE CHOOSE A LINEAR ONE.

It still baffles me that someone came up with that idea and nobody in this multi million dollar company pointed out that they failed to copy the mechanism that would help late players stay semi competetive.

imredneckson

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

I have 240 CPs on my first account and zero on my second, I made the same style of toon same race and class building it the same way and the toon on my first account is much stronger compared to my second. I don't like CPs and I think it screws over new players. I do think removing them would make this game better for new player and make players learn to fight again without using CPs as a crutch.

ZOS new players means more money they are more likely to stay if they believe they have a chance at catching up with the top players but with CPs it makes it almost impossible. If you don't want to get rid of them then at least put a limit on how many CPs one can gain with in a certain amount of time once they reach a certain amount.

RSram

So what you want is for casual players to get the same rewards for playing less than the dedicated players who spend more time playing?

That's like a grading system where the entire class is given the same grade based on the average grade of the class. So what's the point of working hard and earning an A when you know you have to share it with the losers who didn't work as hard you?

Malmai

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Like i said Grinders have 1K CP+ and they are on totally new level of gaming, now tell me how can a a guy who i know with same class, same race, same gear, same build, deal 5k dmg more than me but ofc hes got 891 CP points...

Sausage

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?[/quote]

Of course no, but its not fair if someone who start this game today he never cant reach the top, or new players needs to grind years like oldies did, I think 2-3 month of good grinding should be good test if you got it or not. Zen should encourage new players to stay not scare them away.

jeevin

Probably the biggest loss of income for this game is, not from new players, but from those of us who took a break and because of the Champion System, there is a barrier to coming back. Players who feel that the Champion System is "progression" and "progression" is game play are kidding themselves. 1/4 2/8 4/16 8 /32 it's all the *** same.
History has shown real game play set by rules in a sandbox environment has far more longevity and meaningful interaction between players than mindless "progression" ever will.

BlackEar

ZOS already said they thought about seasonal Champion Points.

Why didn't you use the vast number of threads already on the subject?
Search before posting - it is common forum etiquette!

BuggeX

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

Malmai

BuggeX wrote: »

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

Not instant but well in some cases... With 1 K CP points u have so much more resources and way more damage, more health, more stamina, more magicka...

Rosveen

BuggeX wrote: »

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

This has never been about 1 CP. It's about people joining the game when everyone else has 500 CP on average. Don't tell me they won't feel the difference.

lathbury

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

In a word: no.

MMOs are very long-lived games which need to provide steady supplies of motivation to their players, otherwise there would be next to no point in playing them (social aspects notwithstanding).

MMOs also need incentives and reward mechanisms, in which the time invested playing them is directly proportional to a sense of progression and/or power level. If all players were equal no matter how long they play individually, then again there would be next to no point in playing them.

Some MMOs try to solve this solely with a gear grind, i.e. after reaching the level cap, progression in power is only to be had through gear, with everything this entails (e.g. regular invalidation of progress whenever the level cap is raised). ESO has multiple lanes of approaching this, and the Champion System as a horizontal leveling system is one of several. It's there (beside other systems) to provide long-term goals and thus, motivation, without invalidation of progress.

All that being said, some sort of upcoming caps and/or catch-up mechanisms have been hinted at for the future, to mitigate both extremes in growth rates.

I agree with your first point that mmo's need a reward/incentive but after that you make a massive leap saying the op wants all players equal regardless of time played etc. you are also stating that the cp system is a horizontal progression system when if fact it is approx 2 years worth of vertical progression with no caps atm.

Your point about invalidation of gear etc is already moot as the latest update did just that so now we have 2 grinds.
Also finally you state that ZOS has hinted at a catch up mechanism and caps this is a falsehood as a community ambassador I'm sure your aware that ZOS have more then hinted at this they have said they are definately implementing one but are not ready to release the details or timeframe yet. The fact that they are taking devolper time and resources to do this is a tacit admission that the OP is right and the CP system in its current guise is bad for the game.

Funkopotamus

BuggeX wrote: »

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

Not really.
The real problem is the fact that there are no "1CP" players out there.

What these people are trying to say is that as a new player you shouldn't be playing against a level 18 with 180CP............



CP on lower leveled alts might have looked great on a persons desk, but in practice it is nothing but a troll for new players.

CP should only be shared if the ALT is at least vet1

I mean lets be honest here... Do you REALLY need that CP pre VET for anything except to troll other players with?

hrothbern

IMO the CP system is a very good addition for the game and the game diversity.
I think that play strenght is (yes it is !!!) by far the most important factor for overall strength.

As long as you do NOT go to the cutting edge of min/max you can make your own unique mix of"
--- amount of synergy between your practical play style and the technical factors you choose for your build (the 4 below)
--- race
--- class
--- gear
--- choise of CP attributed


To max out diversity at "good enough" total strenght, these 4 factors need to be of approx equal weight.

Class, Gear and CP are more or less of the same weight. Racials could be stronger. Class would nicely do with an additional skill line. see also: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219577/expanding-class-skill-lines#5
How well you build fits to your play style is of course completely up to you.

Tweaking CP, especially regarding balancing the playerbase. Yes! And for sure we will see something there from ZOS. Catch up / seasonal caps / CP classes for PVP.
But I do hope based on ZOS statistics and not and the rare exceptions that have a very high CP that get sooooo much attention from some people on this forum.

And Spelcrafting would be great to have as well. Good for the new challenge. Good as a 5th factor to increase diversity.

BuggeX

Rosveen wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

This has never been about 1 CP. It's about people joining the game when everyone else has 500 CP on average. Don't tell me they won't feel the difference.

Dont tell me new ppls would stand a Chance even if they join instant with 3600, they simply would lack the experience ppls has with 500+ Cps.

That is the "Magick" about Cps

Funkopotamus wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

Not really.
The real problem is the fact that there are no "1CP" players out there.

What these people are trying to say is that as a new player you shouldn't be playing against a level 18 with 180CP............



CP on lower leveled alts might have looked great on a persons desk, but in practice it is nothing but a troll for new players.

CP should only be shared if the ALT is at least vet1

I mean lets be honest here... Do you REALLY need that CP pre VET for anything except to troll other players with?

well non Vet Camp is a other Problem, but even if Cps are disable there, the same Players would farm the new Player there, cause of the Gear and Exp they have in Game

lathbury

RSram wrote: »

So what you want is for casual players to get the same rewards for playing less than the dedicated players who spend more time playing?

That's like a grading system where the entire class is given the same grade based on the average grade of the class. So what's the point of working hard and earning an A when you know you have to share it with the losers who didn't work as hard you?

Where to begin with this if you need a numerical advantage over someone then guess what you arent the best in the class you are getting a boost. My next point is should we even be rewarding grinding in this fashion? It does not involve skilled play what so ever just an in ordinate amount of time. At least with a gear progression system there is a challenge to be completed to get the next best in slot gear so in this way it rewards skilled play and can be achieved by anyone skilled enough so does not gate newcomers behind 2 years of grind.

Malmai

BuggeX wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

BuggeX wrote: »

Ist funny how some ppls still think 1 CP = instant win vs others with 0....

This has never been about 1 CP. It's about people joining the game when everyone else has 500 CP on average. Don't tell me they won't feel the difference.

Dont tell me new ppls would stand a Chance even if they join instant with 3600, they simply would lack the experience ppls has with 500+ Cps.

That is the "Magick" about Cps

Doesnt matter CPs are too strong and for sake of all new people coming to the game its gnna be a big gap they wont close. They gnna lose motivation and leave the game...

Brrrofski

I don't see the problem with them.

It's something to work towards when you hit max level.

I like the system.

People who have time to play more, get more. I don't see the problem with that. It's how a lot of stuff work in general, beyond the gaming world.

I only have 121, before people claim I like them because I have a lot. Only started when game was launched on xbox

JD2013

No. I don't agree, and I do not have a huge amount of champion points.

If I were to do three hours in the IC sewers for example (as I have done a few times) with a group, I've been getting 3 Champion Points. That's not exactly hard work. Sure, I don't have 8 - 12 hours a day to grind them out, so I am not going to have a high CP rank. Others do, so they do. Giving everyone the same reward is not how the real world works.

The Champion System was introduced as a way to start replacing the VR system (and I think that is coming, as the devs have stated that Orsinuim is NOT going to raise the level cap to VR18) as so many players were hating on the VR levels.

They have stated that they are working on a seasonal CP cap. Barring this, what would you have them do? Scrap the CP system and have them work on ANOTHER system that people will hate?

lathbury

Brrrofski wrote: »

I don't see the problem with them.

It's something to work towards when you hit max level.

I like the system.

People who have time to play more, get more. I don't see the problem with that. It's how a lot of stuff work in general, beyond the gaming world.

I only have 121, before people claim I like them because I have a lot. Only started when game was launched on xbox

other than you liking the system I have to disagree with pretty much everything you said there

Genomic

ZOS won't remove CPs. The system caters to the obsessive-compulsives, the addicts, the no-lifers. Those that mistake virtual points for mindless grinding as 'rewards' for 'hard work'. In other words, exactly the type of people who will buy every shiny that appears in the cash shop. Thar she blows.

UltimaJoe777

BugCollector wrote: »

Save ESO from the champion system

Mo' like save the forums from people making hundreds of threads about the champion system after Zenimax has stated the request to limit cp gain is in the works. Soon as they figure out how to get it into the game they will.

Funkopotamus

I wonder how many people are going to feel like grinding all of these CP's after they give us CP free Campaigns...

All of those points will have been wasted for those that only grind CP to troll in PvP.Heck I bet some of these people are going to /wrist when Non CP Campaigns are introduced.


But all of those hours upon hours spent will still be great for PVE

lathbury

Funkopotamus wrote: »

I wonder how many people are going to feel like grinding all of these CP's after they give us CP free Campaigns...

All of those points will have been wasted for those that only grind CP to troll in PvP.Heck I bet some of these people are going to /wrist when Non CP Campaigns are introduced.


But all of those hours upon hours spent will still be great for PVE

untill there are 0 cp leaderboards

DaveTheMinion

How do you know the guy/girl who just beat you down has more CP than you? I don't remember seeing that on the you just got whooped screen?

I also think that just because I played more than you and earned my CP points rank and gear why should I be penalised just because of it???

Take away the CP points, what's next on the complaint list when you die?

AAN2

Did they do away with the Enlightenment system or something?

Because if not, then those that play 12 hours a day are actually gaining CP at nearly the same time as those who only play for an hour or two a day.

If you don't play at all, then sorry to say but you deserve to get your butt beat by those that do.

KhajitFurTrader

lathbury wrote: »

I agree with your first point that mmo's need a reward/incentive but after that you make a massive leap saying the op wants all players equal regardless of time played etc.

To quote the OP: "Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?" It's saying exactly this, yes.

lathbury wrote: »

you are also stating that the cp system is a horizontal progression system when if fact it is approx 2 years worth of vertical progression with no caps atm.

Compared to which vertical progression? Levels? Not changed since initial release. Veteran Ranks? Raised by 6 in approximately one year. Are 3600 CP worth 6 VR? Hardly. And the whole point of a horizontal system ist that it's being grinded out slowly, ideally with diminishing returns, because it is, as I said above, intended as a long-term motivational goal. Which MMOs need.

lathbury wrote: »

Your point about invalidation of gear etc is already moot as the latest update did just that so now we have 2 grinds.

Then please read the paragraph again. The point was that some MMOs only have the (vertical) gear grind, which gets invalidated every time level caps rise, and nothing else. A horizontal system is ideally not influenced by this, its progress level is preserved even when changes to other power level system happen.

lathbury wrote: »

Also finally you state that ZOS has hinted at a catch up mechanism and caps this is a falsehood as a community ambassador I'm sure your aware that ZOS have more then hinted at this they have said they are definately implementing one but are not ready to release the details or timeframe yet.

The part I've emphasized comprises the meaning of "hinting". Everything else is a confirmed release date set in stone.

lathbury wrote: »

The fact that they are taking devolper time and resources to do this is a tacit admission that the OP is right and the CP system in its current guise is bad for the game.

So you're trying to say that every developer who iterates on systems, in order to optimize them, to make them more viable or acceptable, or plainly more working as intended, is admitting they've got it completely and utterly wrong the first time around? Well...

If you care to remember, the Champion System was introduced at the expressed wishes of the players, who wouldn't or couldn't accept the VR system as a long-term motivational goal (sometimes even for the right reasons). So yes, the introduction of the CS can be taken as an admission that the VR system was not capable of doing what it was intended to do. So we got the CS instead, which is, all in all, a better approach. It's not perfect yet, so of course there will be tweaks. But the answer to the original question, whether the game would be better off without it (same as if everyone had exactly the same amount of CP), is still no.