Save ESO from the Champion System

AhPook_Is_Here

I think the champion system really discourages new players and keeps old ones from returning because they feel they are too far behind in the power curve.

First, you could just leave the whole rested (forgot the zos nomenclature for this) experience buffer uncapped.

Second, every major patch award CPs to all accounts equal to 2/3 the highest earner in the game. You could purge the rested buffer at these awards too if it made it too easy for people to save rested and rocket ahead of CP leaders.

That would likely go a long way to lowering the barrier to returning players and make casual players feel like they weren't falling too far behind the power curve. If this was a PVE game I could understand rewarding the most dedicated players exceptionally. Since it is mostly a PVP game you can't give time zombies such an edge over normal human players or the "skill-factor" in the game goes way down to where good players without a lot of free time realize they can't keep up and quit.

UltimaJoe777

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the champion system really discourages new players and keeps old ones from returning because they feel they are too far behind in the power curve.

First, you could just leave the whole rested (forgot the zos nomenclature for this) experience buffer uncapped.

Second, every major patch award CPs to all accounts equal to 2/3 the highest earner in the game. You could purge the rested buffer at these awards too if it made it too easy for people to save rested and rocket ahead of CP leaders.

That would likely go a long way to lowering the barrier to returning players and make casual players feel like they weren't falling too far behind the power curve. If this was a PVE game I could understand rewarding the most dedicated players exceptionally. Since it is mostly a PVP game you can't give time zombies such an edge over normal human players or the "skill-factor" in the game goes way down to where good players without a lot of free time realize they can't keep up and quit.

CPs are a form of leveling when leveling is no longer possible. To award freebies like that is just giving out free levels and completely defeats the purpose of having them. Also what good do CPs do for newcomers when they can't even access the menu in the first place because they haven't unlocked it yet?

No the CS isn't the big cause of deserting population here. For some it may be a contributing factor but frankly it doesn't bother me at all how far behind I am from others. Nothing a little work can't fix anyway.

AhPook_Is_Here

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the champion system really discourages new players and keeps old ones from returning because they feel they are too far behind in the power curve.

First, you could just leave the whole rested (forgot the zos nomenclature for this) experience buffer uncapped.

Second, every major patch award CPs to all accounts equal to 2/3 the highest earner in the game. You could purge the rested buffer at these awards too if it made it too easy for people to save rested and rocket ahead of CP leaders.

That would likely go a long way to lowering the barrier to returning players and make casual players feel like they weren't falling too far behind the power curve. If this was a PVE game I could understand rewarding the most dedicated players exceptionally. Since it is mostly a PVP game you can't give time zombies such an edge over normal human players or the "skill-factor" in the game goes way down to where good players without a lot of free time realize they can't keep up and quit.

CPs are a form of leveling when leveling is no longer possible. To award freebies like that is just giving out free levels and completely defeats the purpose of having them. Also what good do CPs do for newcomers when they can't even access the menu in the first place because they haven't unlocked it yet?

No the CS isn't the big cause of deserting population here. For some it may be a contributing factor but frankly it doesn't bother me at all how far behind I am from others. Nothing a little work can't fix anyway.

I disagree with your premise that they are a personal leveling device. They are there to scale player power-curves against content that nobody is playing any longer. You perceive them as a personal time investment achievement because they were branded that way to you, but they could just as easily be branded a community goal to enhance player power-curves against NPCs.

With my proposal, an individual can still shine ahead of the curve with a huge time investment in this game, but they will also assist their fellow players in strengthening their relative power to NPCs. You aren't giving away something for nothing, new players will have access to the CPs at VR1 and be able to enjoy competition in the IC and cyrodiil as well as not totally embarrass themselves in group PVE content doing numbers 50% below long term players. You are giving away CPs so that new players that hit VR1 don't suddenly realize they have to grind for a year just to not get insta-gibbed in PVP. I think seasonal allocations will go a long way to retain and recapture more casual players.

UltimaJoe777

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the champion system really discourages new players and keeps old ones from returning because they feel they are too far behind in the power curve.

First, you could just leave the whole rested (forgot the zos nomenclature for this) experience buffer uncapped.

Second, every major patch award CPs to all accounts equal to 2/3 the highest earner in the game. You could purge the rested buffer at these awards too if it made it too easy for people to save rested and rocket ahead of CP leaders.

That would likely go a long way to lowering the barrier to returning players and make casual players feel like they weren't falling too far behind the power curve. If this was a PVE game I could understand rewarding the most dedicated players exceptionally. Since it is mostly a PVP game you can't give time zombies such an edge over normal human players or the "skill-factor" in the game goes way down to where good players without a lot of free time realize they can't keep up and quit.

CPs are a form of leveling when leveling is no longer possible. To award freebies like that is just giving out free levels and completely defeats the purpose of having them. Also what good do CPs do for newcomers when they can't even access the menu in the first place because they haven't unlocked it yet?

No the CS isn't the big cause of deserting population here. For some it may be a contributing factor but frankly it doesn't bother me at all how far behind I am from others. Nothing a little work can't fix anyway.

I disagree with your premise that they are a personal leveling device. They are there to scale player power-curves against content that nobody is playing any longer. You perceive them as a personal time investment achievement because they were branded that way to you, but they could just as easily be branded a community goal to enhance player power-curves against NPCs.

With my proposal, an individual can still shine ahead of the curve with a huge time investment in this game, but they will also assist their fellow players in strengthening their relative power to NPCs. You aren't giving away something for nothing, new players will have access to the CPs at VR1 and be able to enjoy competition in the IC and cyrodiil as well as not totally embarrass themselves in group PVE content doing numbers 50% below long term players. You are giving away CPs so that new players that hit VR1 don't suddenly realize they have to grind for a year just to not get insta-gibbed in PVP. I think seasonal allocations will go a long way to retain and recapture more casual players.

Your disagreement is purely opinionated though. Believe it or not the CS is essentially a form of leveling since you gain CPs by gaining experience. It has been stated by Zenimax that they are looking into a way to slow down CP gain though so players can catch up so you don't have to worry about that much.

MishMash

utbackpacker911b14_ESO wrote: »

The only thing that is broken about CP is the players that cry about it. People that have a ton of CP have worked their butts off for them and they deserve them! Bottom line! If you want more CP go get them,they are there for the taking. Linear to me would be stuck at level 50,no vet ranks,no CP,nothing to do,a straight line of nothingness.It doesn't matter what they implement into the game people will find something wrong with it and cry about it.

You expressed my exact opinion... Cheers!

AhPook_Is_Here

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

I think the champion system really discourages new players and keeps old ones from returning because they feel they are too far behind in the power curve.

First, you could just leave the whole rested (forgot the zos nomenclature for this) experience buffer uncapped.

Second, every major patch award CPs to all accounts equal to 2/3 the highest earner in the game. You could purge the rested buffer at these awards too if it made it too easy for people to save rested and rocket ahead of CP leaders.

That would likely go a long way to lowering the barrier to returning players and make casual players feel like they weren't falling too far behind the power curve. If this was a PVE game I could understand rewarding the most dedicated players exceptionally. Since it is mostly a PVP game you can't give time zombies such an edge over normal human players or the "skill-factor" in the game goes way down to where good players without a lot of free time realize they can't keep up and quit.

CPs are a form of leveling when leveling is no longer possible. To award freebies like that is just giving out free levels and completely defeats the purpose of having them. Also what good do CPs do for newcomers when they can't even access the menu in the first place because they haven't unlocked it yet?

No the CS isn't the big cause of deserting population here. For some it may be a contributing factor but frankly it doesn't bother me at all how far behind I am from others. Nothing a little work can't fix anyway.

I disagree with your premise that they are a personal leveling device. They are there to scale player power-curves against content that nobody is playing any longer. You perceive them as a personal time investment achievement because they were branded that way to you, but they could just as easily be branded a community goal to enhance player power-curves against NPCs.

With my proposal, an individual can still shine ahead of the curve with a huge time investment in this game, but they will also assist their fellow players in strengthening their relative power to NPCs. You aren't giving away something for nothing, new players will have access to the CPs at VR1 and be able to enjoy competition in the IC and cyrodiil as well as not totally embarrass themselves in group PVE content doing numbers 50% below long term players. You are giving away CPs so that new players that hit VR1 don't suddenly realize they have to grind for a year just to not get insta-gibbed in PVP. I think seasonal allocations will go a long way to retain and recapture more casual players.

Your disagreement is purely opinionated though. Believe it or not the CS is essentially a form of leveling since you gain CPs by gaining experience. It has been stated by Zenimax that they are looking into a way to slow down CP gain though so players can catch up so you don't have to worry about that much.

Do you feel I worry a lot about this? Well thank you for your genuine concern, it's that kind of warmth that makes these forums worth reading. As a console player you are in one of two categories here, first a person protecting their CP advantage after doing a character transfer, second, a new player who compares his relative strength to his equally handicapped fellows.

I don't play now, and I am still sitting at around 350 CPs. Will I come back one day? It will depend a lot on the way the CP system is structured at that time. So at least as anecdotal information goes, CP structure is a make or break for at least one account.

It is also irrelevant how ZoS marketed the system initially, game companies make changes, and they re-purpose things to retain subscriptions and sales. Admitting that changes need to be made in the system opens the door to any kind of change at this point and I think mine is optimal for returning players.

Hiero_Glyph

CP were intended to provide a horizontal progression system that promotes further character development and replaces veteran ranks. They were not intended as a vertical progression system that results in power creep and the eventual flattening of character development. Think about it... once enough players have 1k+ CP they will all have the same basic CP traits maxed; that's not something that promotes character diversity at all. The only variance will be if you max Mighty or Thaumaturge depending on your build, etc.

In truth, the CP system has failed at what it was designed to accomplish. If CP was capped then players would have difficult choices to make about which traits to unlock and how many points to invest in each. Simply dumping 100 into Mighty/Thaumaturge may not be viable if you only have 360 total.

If we consider CP longterm then we have the unfortunate circumstance of realizing that players will eventually reach 3,600 CP and no choice/progression will remain. At that point new players will be so far behind that the system designed to retain players will actively discourage new players from playing ESO. Having to grind from 1-50, and then to vr16 is bad enough, especially when ZOS keep nerfing non-quest grind spots. Then to add in 3,600 CP is somethnig that noone wants to do unless they get the benefit first. Additionally, no amount of balance changes can account for such a large CP discrepancy and players will demand non-CP Cyrodiil campaigns (this has already started). So where does the future take us? Back to where we were before CP were added (and ZOS still won't have removed vet ranks yet).

Sausage

IC would be so good place for catch-up system, let them suffer, they could even make sewers look more sadistic, old vet players could go gank them just for fun. Who is with me!?!

Rosveen

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Grinders will always have lots more of everything than anyone else does.

Getting rid of the CP system won't change that. The grinders will simply find something else to replace it with.

Personally, I like the CP system. It adds another layer of depth and diversity to the game, and that's not a bad thing in my eyes.

Unless this issue is purely PvP whining... which I still don't see the issue. Look at my sig. I don't grind CP's, and have a really low number of them so far. I still get PvP kills easily when PvE questing in IC, and that's against people whose characters run the whole range of Vet Ranks.

Its not just pvp whining its changes a lot in pve as well... cant u see...

A PvEer whining about CPs causing a purely PvE disadvantage makes absolutely no sense because PvE does not scale to CPs. If someone in the PvE area happens to have a lot of CPs compared to you that is honestly a credit to the cause. Seriously do people even know what they're QQing over anymore?

CP play just as important role in competitive PvE: leaderboards. Having very high number of CP also trivializes content which wasn't balanced for it. Don't think this is only a PvP problem.

Malmai

Rosveen wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Grinders will always have lots more of everything than anyone else does.

Getting rid of the CP system won't change that. The grinders will simply find something else to replace it with.

Personally, I like the CP system. It adds another layer of depth and diversity to the game, and that's not a bad thing in my eyes.

Unless this issue is purely PvP whining... which I still don't see the issue. Look at my sig. I don't grind CP's, and have a really low number of them so far. I still get PvP kills easily when PvE questing in IC, and that's against people whose characters run the whole range of Vet Ranks.

Its not just pvp whining its changes a lot in pve as well... cant u see...

A PvEer whining about CPs causing a purely PvE disadvantage makes absolutely no sense because PvE does not scale to CPs. If someone in the PvE area happens to have a lot of CPs compared to you that is honestly a credit to the cause. Seriously do people even know what they're QQing over anymore?

CP play just as important role in competitive PvE: leaderboards. Having very high number of CP also trivializes content which wasn't balanced for it. Don't think this is only a PvP problem.

Good morning...

QuebraRegra

BEZDNA wrote: »

Champion system is aweosme! Better save ESO from forum whiners.

Allow me to translate:

"I have no skill, don't want to learn to play, and want to win because I'm a CP grinder".

I think we get the message.

DarkMatter909

utbackpacker911b14_ESO wrote: »

The only thing that is broken about CP is the players that cry about it. People that have a ton of CP have worked their butts off for them and they deserve them! Bottom line! If you want more CP go get them,they are there for the taking. Linear to me would be stuck at level 50,no vet ranks,no CP,nothing to do,a straight line of nothingness.It doesn't matter what they implement into the game people will find something wrong with it and cry about it.

Its a cycle,even the more hardcore players get bored and take breaks from the game,mediocre players come up from behind and take the top.And that cycle keeps going around and around.If a new player comes to an MMO with the idea of being in the top ranks with little to no effort then they really didn't have any intentions on sticking around in the first place.

This is not a console game where you log on pick a weapon and go kill people,its an MMO.And I wish you console gamers would stop screwing up my MMO's!

I agreed with you until you started bashing console players. Just because i have an xbox doesn't mean i want cp or vr ranks removed. I think its fine the way it is, leave it alone.
Its not console people who are screwing the game its people like the op on any system who feel they should be equal for little to no effort. Mmo's reward time played and effort in the game; whether grinding in a circle or doing vet dungeons. I am sick of the entitled snowflake attitude of i don't have the time or i just started so i should get everything everyone else has. Whats the fun in that?
If i die in pvp i figure out what i could have done better or something to that affect, not go on the forum and complain i should be as strong after a few weeks of play as someone who played since launch. I don't have hundreds of cps but im not afraid of anyone who does. Everything has a weakness or can be beaten, figure it out or move on. There will always be someone more powerful than you in this type of game, the sooner people accept that and have fun again the better this game and community will be. Even if there was a lvl cap and no cp, then what next we all have to wear the same gear so the snowflakes don't get there feelings hurt they look different?
Mmo's dont work that way and neither does life. Get used to it or go play a single player rpg so you can be the greatest character in the game since thats probably their real problem in the end. If the complaining snowflakes are not the best then no one else should be right?

DrunkenGryffinInn

If you spent less time complaining on the forums and more time playing, you might have more CP. But that's none of my business.

RizaHawkeye

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

No.

leroit

Yea, champion system just makes it impossible for new players to catch up. Do something about it.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Champion system was added with good heart from ZOS and they mean well with it. They system isn't broken it's that ZOS didn't factor in players litteraly spending weeks on farming it they thought that players were gonna earn them at a slow rate like normal players do.

So they didn't mean for players to break it they just didn't factor in the no lifes. Cause all these high level Champion players are PvPers no? Sounds like ZOS just really needs to cut back CEXP earned from killing players then.

NGP

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

I would rather ZeniMax just open one or two CP free campaign. And leave them to continue play with their cp in those original campaign.

Darkeus

BEZDNA wrote: »

Champion system is aweosme! Better save ESO from forum whiners.

+1kkkkkkkkkkk

Sithisvoid

It's already planned. Can we stop making these threads now?

Wifeaggro13

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

The problem is in the implementation of the champion system. any system releasing with no cap and diminshing returns on points spent is horrid. this system is garbage. had they gone the route of EQ 2 AA system and had general branching into class trees then into specs in the class that unlocked actives. the system would have been far more interesting and far less exploitable with point grinding. It was a very lazy approach to advancement , and a clear attempt at longevity with little development time and zero effort.

Etaniel

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Seasons are stupid, you only want them because you are far behind in CP, but if seasons started now, people joining the game in a year would be as screwed as you are now, thus fixing nothing. But since you'd have max CP, you wouldn't care right? Might as well go ahead and give max CP to everyone right now, making the system completely useless.

Actually It's already useless , because it doesn't promote character diversity at all. Would have been much smarter to make a cap on CP, say 1000, that you could spend on the 3600 tree. But giving access to all points is ***.

Rook_Master

Champion Points are absolutely ruining PvP balance, and it has only gotten worse since March. No one is saying that time investment shouldn't be rewarded, but having a system that puts grinders and exploiters out so far ahead on a linear scale is absurd. It's the whole reason that the concept of a 'max level' exists in MMOs.

A lot of people have a fundamental misunderstanding of the power differential between different levels of CP, and continue to argue things like, "skill trumps CP every time!!". People that understand the game well enough to exploit and grind their way to 1000+ CP are not unskilled. If you spend 8+ hours a day on this game there is no freaking way you could be bad at it. I don't know where this myth of the unskilled nolifer comes from, but it's completely absurd.

The CP system is essentially linear progression until you get near the 2000+ range, and that point, for the average player, will be years into the future. The fact that some have already reached that point just shows how badly thought out the system was.

For gods sake, there were people that exploited a zero-day 1.6 exploit to stack XP bonuses from flipping keeps in Cyrodiil, getting over 300CP in the first weekend, and ZOS didn't revert them!

Remember folks, exploit early, exploit often.

nimander99

Save the Champion System from miss information!

zornyan

Malmai wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

We know that grinders have lots more CP than others. For new players this is a nightmare, because they can never catch up anymore.
I suggest implementing seasonal CP. You can't get more than x times CP per season. Also, the people who are behind should get a xp bonus to catch up.
Wouldn't the game be more wonderful if everyone had the same amount of CP?

Like i said Grinders have 1K CP+ and they are on totally new level of gaming, now tell me how can a a guy who i know with same class, same race, same gear, same build, deal 5k dmg more than me but ofc hes got 891 CP points...

Because that person would have spent literially months of hard grinding to improve his character. Something you haven't done, therefore he deserves to have a reward for his hard work.

Hiero_Glyph

nimander99 wrote: »

Save the Champion System from miss information!

This thread actually has a lot of informed opinions on both sides. As of right now the CP system is really starting to hurt ESO's PvP overall. In a few more months it will become a major hindrance to the game, especially when new content is released and players with 600+ CP are saying to make it harder while those with <200 are claiming it is too hard. As noted, the CP system is far too linear and what starts out as character development ends with buffs in every category regardless of build.

Sadly implementing seasons with CP caps and perma-enlightenment until a seasonal minimum is reached will not solve this issue as it just promotes power creep. The only misinformation in this thread is thinking ZOS understands how serious a problem CP are for ESO overall.

zornyan

leroit wrote: »

Yea, champion system just makes it impossible for new players to catch up. Do something about it.

Er no it doesn't, I'm a console player, fairly 'casual' due to my job and hobbies. I've managed to hit nearly 100 with just a bit of work here and there, infact a good friend of mine that is more a 'hardcore' gamer has hit 250 without too much stress.

Just to reference that, at 250 he is nearly at the diminishing returns point, 0-300cp gap is the same as 300-1600cp due to diminishing returns.

Due to the fact less than what? 5 people have even gotten near 1500 I can't see that being a big problem...

neueregel

BEZDNA wrote: »

Champion system is aweosme! Better save ESO from forum whiners.

^^^

Hiero_Glyph

zornyan wrote: »

leroit wrote: »

Yea, champion system just makes it impossible for new players to catch up. Do something about it.

Er no it doesn't, I'm a console player, fairly 'casual' due to my job and hobbies. I've managed to hit nearly 100 with just a bit of work here and there, infact a good friend of mine that is more a 'hardcore' gamer has hit 250 without too much stress.

Just to reference that, at 250 he is nearly at the diminishing returns point, 0-300cp gap is the same as 300-1600cp due to diminishing returns.

Due to the fact less than what? 5 people have even gotten near 1500 I can't see that being a big problem...

Those diminishing returns are far too linear to actually reduce the benefit to the point of being negligible. I agree that getting to 300 CP is a major milestone but players with 1k+ CP are still at a distinct advantage over those with less since there are so many categories to invest in. What's funny is that CP seem harmless at first, but once you understand how they actually work you realize that having >10% bonus in all areas is rather significant, especially when combined with passive bonuses (and how they stack with set bonuses).

Rook_Master

zornyan wrote: »

leroit wrote: »

Yea, champion system just makes it impossible for new players to catch up. Do something about it.

Er no it doesn't, I'm a console player, fairly 'casual' due to my job and hobbies. I've managed to hit nearly 100 with just a bit of work here and there, infact a good friend of mine that is more a 'hardcore' gamer has hit 250 without too much stress.

Just to reference that, at 250 he is nearly at the diminishing returns point, 0-300cp gap is the same as 300-1600cp due to diminishing returns.

Due to the fact less than what? 5 people have even gotten near 1500 I can't see that being a big problem...

Dude 300 CP is nowhere near approaching diminishing returns.

Try more like 1500-2000.