[Build] Update 2.1 - Stamina DK Tank/DPS for PvP & PvE!

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Will immovable trigger shield breaker as it has the invisible shield?

Immovable is not a damage shield, so no, it doesn't.

Trayyacakes

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

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Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Can someone explain to me mathematically why the Black Rose 5pc is considered so good?

On my heavy armor templar with 5pc heavy I'm getting 243 magicka/stamina returned every 4 seconds with the constitution passive.

So with the black rose set equipped I should get, 243*1.5=364, which is an increase of about 120 magicka/stamina return every 4 seconds assuming ideal conditions i.e. taking damage.

Dividing by 2, that's 60 more magicka/stamina per regen cycle (which is supposed to be 2 seconds).

For comparison, a v14 legendary glyph adds 165 recovery and tri-stat food adds 300-400 per stat.

Now lets talk weapon damage. V14 Black Rose 5pc gives you 150 weapon damage. and two 930 stamina bonuses which is effectively another 180 weapon damage (assuming the 10% rule on resource/damage ratio still applies).

Hunding's rage 5pc gives you 299 weapon damage at v14 with one stam bonus and a gold jewelry enchant gives you 133.

Wouldn't it be better from a min/max perspective to do something like Hundings/Dreugh King 5pc heavy?

Theres something to be said about obtaining high weapon damage via a high stamina pool. Not only do you get the high weapon damage, but you also have a larger stamina pool to work with. You also get a nice HP increase with the two piece. Then the constitution increase is nice but not impressive.

Overall, I prefer black rose over hundings/dreugh king.

Having 50k stamina in werewolf form is incredible.

The higher stam pool also helps a ton with DK sustain via earthen heart passives: Battle Roar and Helping Hands. The extra health also helps make igneous shield a little bit better. I use Black Rose on my DK for those reasons, but I believe any other class Hundings is better IMO.

asteldian

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

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Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Can someone explain to me mathematically why the Black Rose 5pc is considered so good?

On my heavy armor templar with 5pc heavy I'm getting 243 magicka/stamina returned every 4 seconds with the constitution passive.

So with the black rose set equipped I should get, 243*1.5=364, which is an increase of about 120 magicka/stamina return every 4 seconds assuming ideal conditions i.e. taking damage.

Dividing by 2, that's 60 more magicka/stamina per regen cycle (which is supposed to be 2 seconds).

For comparison, a v14 legendary glyph adds 165 recovery and tri-stat food adds 300-400 per stat.

Now lets talk weapon damage. V14 Black Rose 5pc gives you 150 weapon damage. and two 930 stamina bonuses which is effectively another 180 weapon damage (assuming the 10% rule on resource/damage ratio still applies).

Hunding's rage 5pc gives you 299 weapon damage at v14 with one stam bonus and a gold jewelry enchant gives you 133.

Wouldn't it be better from a min/max perspective to do something like Hundings/Dreugh King 5pc heavy?

Theres something to be said about obtaining high weapon damage via a high stamina pool. Not only do you get the high weapon damage, but you also have a larger stamina pool to work with. You also get a nice HP increase with the two piece. Then the constitution increase is nice but not impressive.

Overall, I prefer black rose over hundings/dreugh king.

Having 50k stamina in werewolf form is incredible.

If anything, I would say a good alternative to Black Rose is Twice Born Star - you get health, stamina and run The Tower and the Warrior. So all you really miss out on is the constitution bonus. It makes an easily attainable alternative and of course if you need to adjust the build for a more defensive situation (pve tanking) you could change Warrior stone to health or armor or whatever you need. Course you then need to consider if going all Divines is a better choice than having some infused.

trimsic_ESO

Indeed Twice Born Star is an interesting alternative, even with an infused trait. And it can be crafted, which means that you can choose the traits you want. To be tested.

Lefty_Lucy

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

If anything, I would say a good alternative to Black Rose is Twice Born Star - you get health, stamina and run The Tower and the Warrior. So all you really miss out on is the constitution bonus. It makes an easily attainable alternative and of course if you need to adjust the build for a more defensive situation (pve tanking) you could change Warrior stone to health or armor or whatever you need. Course you then need to consider if going all Divines is a better choice than having some infused.

Ah very intuitive! I like this! I'll have to test it!

Edit: Somehow I failed at quoting. Fixed!

shugg

Dam makes me wish i was a dk tank, any chance u could convert this to a NB tank lefty

leepalmer95

This seems interesting, how hard are the black rose sets and such to get though?

Also you planning to make a pvp vid for this?

danno8

leepalmer95 wrote: »

This seems interesting, how hard are the black rose sets and such to get though?

Also you planning to make a pvp vid for this?

V15 only requires 5000 TV. Very easy to get just grinding IC sewers (safest option) for a few hours at most. Then if you are bored you can look to slowly replace with V16 (10x as many TV as V15).

leepalmer95

danno8 wrote: »

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leepalmer95 wrote: »

This seems interesting, how hard are the black rose sets and such to get though?

Also you planning to make a pvp vid for this?

V15 only requires 5000 TV. Very easy to get just grinding IC sewers (safest option) for a few hours at most. Then if you are bored you can look to slowly replace with V16 (10x as many TV as V15).

I'm guessing the difference between v15 + 16 isn't much?

Xsorus

Black rose is cheap, green versions come from worthy bags with random traits, I got 5 piece infused on mine.

danno8

leepalmer95 wrote: »

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danno8 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

This seems interesting, how hard are the black rose sets and such to get though?

Also you planning to make a pvp vid for this?

V15 only requires 5000 TV. Very easy to get just grinding IC sewers (safest option) for a few hours at most. Then if you are bored you can look to slowly replace with V16 (10x as many TV as V15).

I'm guessing the difference between v15 + 16 isn't much?

Definitely not 10x as good, lol.

I'd be surprised if it was more than 1-2% increase in total stats.

Legedric

Th overall stats increase from VR15 to VR16 isn't that much but the prismatic glyphs (VR16) do make a difference.

twistedmonk

Why Heavy Armor over Medium Armor?

leepalmer95

Legedric wrote: »

Th overall stats increase from VR15 to VR16 isn't that much but the prismatic glyphs (VR16) do make a difference.

So prismatic is only v16? so in order to use them you need to bother to gather the v16? well that sucks.

twistedmonk

yeah the grinding continues now for crafting components as well as champion points

ferrel02

how would run this build with 2hand/bow?

Legedric

ferrel02 wrote: »

how would run this build with 2hand/bow?

You simply wouldn't as this would be a completely different approach having a bow instead of S&B.

iseko

Same question as always for heavy armor builds: where does the sustain come from? Black rose helps but not that much... Igneous with 40k+ stam will help but you got maybe 4 casts before magicka runs out. Your skills are expensive in HA and ure regen is pretty low. In a group other people can help you sustain but in a solo fight you would be bleeding stamina?

Legedric

Well, I don't know what Lucy does but medium attack weaving with animation cancelling gets you quite some sustain with this build, especially if you learn to use Battle Roar (aka your ultimate) wisely.
The only time I get low on Stamina with this build is when I have to spam Executioner 3+ times to get my target (tanky) finished.

Vernius

Why stamina cost reduction instead of stamina recovery on jewelry glyphs? Also can I replace the master sword for an agility sword for the additional weapon damage? If so, what trait should I run on the sword?

Legedric

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

DaveMoeDee

I really need to get my main Imp DK Tank back to tanking and leveled up. Kinda sad to still only be at VR12.

The biggest barrier has been playing in dropped gear. Time for me to do some crafting since I have plenty of characters to do the crafting. Maybe I'll give this build or close to it a try. Get me over that hump.

Vernius

Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

Even with the new recovery glyphs update?

iseko

Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

I would think with heavy cp investment that 2 regen glyphs would coubter the diminished returns of cost reduction glyphs. They buffed regen enough for it to be worth it i think

frenchyuk86

Vernius wrote: »

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Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

Even with the new recovery glyphs update?

Regen while blocking doesn't count so the stat is pretty much useless

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

Vernius wrote: »

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Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

Even with the new recovery glyphs update?

Yes. One legendary cost reduction is ~200 or so, while a regen glyph is... would have to check it, but around 170? That means you regen 170 every two seconds (not counting increase regen buffs here) while you're saving around 400 when spamming skills (one each second). This is of course not exact math, but you get the idea; you need to regen more in a given time frame than you would save with a cost reduction glyph.

willymchilybily

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

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Vernius wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

Even with the new recovery glyphs update?

Yes. One legendary cost reduction is ~200 or so, while a regen glyph is... would have to check it, but around 170? That means you regen 170 every two seconds (not counting increase regen buffs here) while you're saving around 400 when spamming skills (one each second). This is of course not exact math, but you get the idea; you need to regen more in a given time frame than you would save with a cost reduction glyph.

damn this is why consoles need damage numbers i read the regen value (eg 170 in your example) was per second but it ticked every 2 seconds (340 per tick). probably still not worth it with no regen on blocking, unless you were a bosmar (master race) then maybe it would work out.

Lefty_Lucy

twistedmonk wrote: »

Why Heavy Armor over Medium Armor?

The build is primarily designed to be tanky. Heavy Armor helps me survive much longer, without relying on dodge rolling and blocking.

ferrel02 wrote: »

how would run this build with 2hand/bow?

I actually was going to start doing that and seeing how it worked. Contrary to what people may initially think, I believe this build would work very well with 2H/bow. The ability changes would be minimal, but the playstyle would change. I would play much more aggressive, and start fights out at range with a Bow. I would use my Bow bar primarily for buffs, and use my 2H bar primarily for DPS. I have a very strong feeling that this will be effective. I'll actually be testing this out live on Twitch in about an hour.

iseko wrote: »

Same question as always for heavy armor builds: where does the sustain come from? Black rose helps but not that much... Igneous with 40k+ stam will help but you got maybe 4 casts before magicka runs out. Your skills are expensive in HA and ure regen is pretty low. In a group other people can help you sustain but in a solo fight you would be bleeding stamina?

You must adjust your playstyle when using heavy armor if you want to maintain stamina. You must not spam abilities constantly, and you must use heavy attacks. Also, you can not wait until you are low on stamina to start using heavy attacks. I have out-sustained every single stamina based person that I have dueled so far. Heavy armor makes me tanky enough that I can just sit there and use heavy attacks, and Battle Roar now gives me significantly more stamina.

Vernius wrote: »

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Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

Even with the new recovery glyphs update?

The answer to the question of Cost Reduction vs Regeneration is dependant on your playstyle. If you use abilities fairly frequntly, you will benefit more from cost reduction. If you sit there and use normal attacks most of your fight, you will benefit more from regen. I can't run the numbers right this very second because I am on mobile, but use cost reduction. It's better, because you should be using abilities more often than the timeframe required to make regen enchantments more useful.

DaveMoeDee

iseko wrote: »

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Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

I would think with heavy cp investment that 2 regen glyphs would coubter the diminished returns of cost reduction glyphs. They buffed regen enough for it to be worth it i think

Why would cost reduction glyphs have diminishing returns?

r.jan_emailb16_ESO

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

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iseko wrote: »

Legedric wrote: »

Cost reduction > Recovery

At least in most cases.

I would think with heavy cp investment that 2 regen glyphs would coubter the diminished returns of cost reduction glyphs. They buffed regen enough for it to be worth it i think

Why would cost reduction glyphs have diminishing returns?

It's because of the way how they work (or used to work, but it doesn't look like as they changed it): cost recution (absolute numbers) is calculated from the base value. The % reduction you may have applies after that.

So, lets take a skill with 1000 base cost. A cost recution glyph of 200 would bring it to 800, and a cost reduction of 10% to 720.

If you use two cost recution glpyhs for a total of 400, you'd be at 600; 10% cost reduction brings you too 540 - not the 520 you might expect.

So technically it's not the glyphs that have a diminishing return, but the combination of absolute and percentage-based cost recution leads to a DR.