The imbalances in PvP

Waugh

Hello,

I apologize in advance for the text comprehension problems, do not speak the language, I use a translator to write this topic.

Here, there is a big problem with the ultimate DK that can kill any magicka in two shots while having a longer survival as incredible. (I speak of course of Stamina DK)

Another big problem is the skills of the 2H which allows to use ravaging and generally after two shots, one falls on the liabilities of the execut.

The solution was to remove the passive or execut that we can be able to interrupt Ravaging.


Thank you.

Draxys

You mean the battle roar passive and rally?

Sensesfail13

Cant... tell if just trolling or not.....

Waugh

Im not troll ...

Sorry my english is very bad but i just say the passif "execut" 2H it's over balanced.

xylena

i think the OP is referring to the high burst dmg that stam dks can do with wrecking blow, dragon leap, and executioner

if there's one thing to be concerned about with dks it's perma block, not their burst ability

trimsic_ESO

The OP needs to L2P. It's so easy to avoid a WB.

Mr_Koh

OP is not a bad player he has just been on the PTS and witnessed a heavy armor DK that stacks resources, which is in fact way too powerful. It has no clear counters. With all the nerfs to medium armor anyone in med armor has a severe disadvantage against not just these DK's, but anyone in this new heavy armor build. These heavy armor users hit harder, sustain longer, and have insane mitigation and its not from just the armor master set its also from black rose which was buffed while the new medium armors are all mediocre at best. The 12% weapon damage boost is not nearly enough damage to make medium an attractive choice with all the damage nerf, and new ways to mitigate tons of damage.

Why roll when you can just face tank everything and output just as much dmg in the process?

xylena

the OP does have a point that there's an issue with executioner... the dmg hits before the overhead swing animation plays, so you can ani cancel this move insanely fast... if you time it right following a dragon leap that connects and knocks back the target, the executioner damage registers before your CC break can even start so you'll probably be dead before any animation plays on your client

MaxwellC

I guess this is another post that heralds the idea of "NERF ALL DKS TILL EXTINCT" kind of post.

This really needs to come to an end, we DKs have suffered the brunt of the nerf force, came up with new ideas to be somewhat "useful" in PvP and with nerfs coming in the IC patch we'll have to struggle even harder in both PVP/PVE.

A lot of Sorcs and NBs always say this to us when they're not nerf'd "ADAPT" time for you to do the same as well.

EnOeZ

Mr_Koh wrote: »

OP is not a bad player he has just been on the PTS and witnessed a heavy armor DK that stacks resources, which is in fact way too powerful. It has no clear counters. With all the nerfs to medium armor anyone in med armor has a severe disadvantage against not just these DK's, but anyone in this new heavy armor build. These heavy armor users hit harder, sustain longer, and have insane mitigation and its not from just the armor master set its also from black rose which was buffed while the new medium armors are all mediocre at best. The 12% weapon damage boost is not nearly enough damage to make medium an attractive choice with all the damage nerf, and new ways to mitigate tons of damage.

Why roll when you can just face tank everything and output just as much dmg in the process?

Nice troll post
Waiting for IC then and the day when Heavy Armor is not the most worthless and badly designed of all.

EnOeZ

Waugh wrote: »

Hello,

I apologize in advance for the text comprehension problems, do not speak the language, I use a translator to write this topic.

Here, there is a big problem with the ultimate DK that can kill any magicka in two shots while having a longer survival as incredible. (I speak of course of Stamina DK)

Another big problem is the skills of the 2H which allows to use ravaging and generally after two shots, one falls on the liabilities of the execut.

The solution was to remove the passive or execut that we can be able to interrupt Ravaging.


Thank you.

Wrecking Blow is a 1sec cast...
You have plenty of time to:

• block
• roll dodge
• move on his back (requires skill)
• stun the DK

You have the choice... twice since he hits you two times.

And I think he is speaking about corrosive armor.

Mr_Koh

EnOeZ wrote: »

Waugh wrote: »

Hello,

I apologize in advance for the text comprehension problems, do not speak the language, I use a translator to write this topic.

Here, there is a big problem with the ultimate DK that can kill any magicka in two shots while having a longer survival as incredible. (I speak of course of Stamina DK)

Another big problem is the skills of the 2H which allows to use ravaging and generally after two shots, one falls on the liabilities of the execut.

The solution was to remove the passive or execut that we can be able to interrupt Ravaging.


Thank you.

Wrecking Blow is a 1sec cast...
You have plenty of time to:

• block
• roll dodge
• move on his back (requires skill)
• stun the DK

You have the choice... twice since he hits you two times.

And I think he is speaking about corrosive armor.

All of these counters work, but not against these stam DK'S. You haven't seen them in action. They take extremely small amounts of damage and they hit super hard, and with the battle roar changes you cannot run their resources. Go ahead and watch one of the most recent streams of King Richard or sypher on twitch. The builds I'm talking about are seen there and they are the end of this games pvp as it is clearly broken.

Even if they reverted the Dodge roll nerf and gave medium armor wearers an extra 500 weapon damage they still would struggle against these easy mode DK builds. And don't make any assumptions until you've seen it yourself.

MaxwellC

@Mr_Koh How can you not avoid wrecking blow? First of all this isn't even a class specific skill it's a skill everyone can use so stop harping on DK because they finally get a bit of a saving grace thanks to the MUCH needed changes to battle roar.

Wrecking blow you can easily stop it by doing everything @EnOeZ just said + you can use your CC skills like fear or bolt escape. You can use anything heck if you step far enough back the animation stops completely. Wrecking blow does good damage but you can easily avoid it with ranged attacks too.

I personally think you're making a lot of excuses because you couldn't win a battle against 2 or 3 wrecking blow spammers and felt the need to blame it on a DK because said player was either in full heavy and you assumed it was a DK or they used a DK move and said "OMG OP DK CAN ONLY MAKE WRECKING BLOW SO OP NERF NOW"

Tankqull

xylena wrote: »

the OP does have a point that there's an issue with executioner... the dmg hits before the overhead swing animation plays, so you can ani cancel this move insanely fast... if you time it right following a dragon leap that connects and knocks back the target, the executioner damage registers before your CC break can even start so you'll probably be dead before any animation plays on your client

this

Mr_Koh

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Mr_Koh How can you not avoid wrecking blow? First of all this isn't even a class specific skill it's a skill everyone can use so stop harping on DK because they finally get a bit of a saving grace thanks to the MUCH needed changes to battle roar.

Wrecking blow you can easily stop it by doing everything @EnOeZ just said + you can use your CC skills like fear or bolt escape. You can use anything heck if you step far enough back the animation stops completely. Wrecking blow does good damage but you can easily avoid it with ranged attacks too.

I personally think you're making a lot of excuses because you couldn't win a battle against 2 or 3 wrecking blow spammers and felt the need to blame it on a DK because said player was either in full heavy and you assumed it was a DK or they used a DK move and said "OMG OP DK CAN ONLY MAKE WRECKING BLOW SO OP NERF NOW"

Have you faced the build I'm speaking about.? HAVE YOU? I don't think you have. Because I'm a good player, and yeah the problem lies in how heavy armor is right now, any stamina build can utilize this extremely powerful setup, but DK does it best by being naturally more beefy and with the buffs of battle roar (a passive that shouldn't be in the game) they won't run out of resources. Yeah you can Dodge a wrecking blow, but when you're hitting a maximum of 3k on the guy using it it's only a matter of time until they land their 8k wrecking blow and win the fight. But it's not just wrecking blow, they can even spam ransack for about 5k dmg per hit which is insane. how about you try the build or take a look at it yourself before thinking I'm wrong. I've done testing, I've seen the build in action and I'm not alone in my opinion. the OP of this thread is from France and far from a native English speaker. he knows how unhealthy this new meta is for the game so he took the time and effort to make this post. You people need to check out these builds before blindly defending them. I do believe the problem is more in heavy armor since you can stack damage in it and just straight bully anyone who isn't in heavy armor themselves.

pmn100b16_ESO

All I can say is, if you've got 9 traits researched, expect a lot of orders for armor master in the next couple of days

#pvpbroke

EnOeZ

Mr_Koh wrote: »

EnOeZ wrote: »

Waugh wrote: »

Hello,

I apologize in advance for the text comprehension problems, do not speak the language, I use a translator to write this topic.

Here, there is a big problem with the ultimate DK that can kill any magicka in two shots while having a longer survival as incredible. (I speak of course of Stamina DK)

Another big problem is the skills of the 2H which allows to use ravaging and generally after two shots, one falls on the liabilities of the execut.

The solution was to remove the passive or execut that we can be able to interrupt Ravaging.


Thank you.

Wrecking Blow is a 1sec cast...
You have plenty of time to:

• block
• roll dodge
• move on his back (requires skill)
• stun the DK

You have the choice... twice since he hits you two times.

And I think he is speaking about corrosive armor.

All of these counters work, but not against these stam DK'S. You haven't seen them in action. They take extremely small amounts of damage and they hit super hard, and with the battle roar changes you cannot run their resources. Go ahead and watch one of the most recent streams of King Richard or sypher on twitch. The builds I'm talking about are seen there and they are the end of this games pvp as it is clearly broken.

Even if they reverted the Dodge roll nerf and gave medium armor wearers an extra 500 weapon damage they still would struggle against these easy mode DK builds. And don't make any assumptions until you've seen it yourself.

Are you talking of live or the PTS ?
Because it happens that I am a Heavy Armor Melee Stamina DK myself and I consider being one of the very best, taking into account how bad is Heavy Armor in ALL terms (mediocre DPS, mediocre sustain, mediocre survivability since I keep repeating it active defenses > passive defenses, and you cannot use that much active defenses in Heavy due to stamina starvation).

I do not know what planet you play on, what server or perhaps non Veteran campaign, I do not know who or what opponent you are facing... or what is your TRUE skill level (not the one you think you have), but the only reason you could complain is a scenario where you happen to take the first hit and due to lag you cannot break out of stun and take the second one with corrosive armor on the DK.

Otherwise "Heavy Armor hit super hard" has to be troll sentence (confess!) since no passive at all give Heavy Armor DPS.

Regarding your streamers, please post the videos you are talking about so that we can talk and show you what you are missing.

MaxwellC

@Mr_Koh You can spam wrecking blow the point is what? This build? I believe I am using a similar build as I wear full heavy PvP trait style armor. Relying on battle roar that does what gives us 70% of our resources when we use an ultimate.

First. We have no class specific gap closers so depending on what class you are especially sorc or nb you can easily get away.

Second. You can spam any ability have you ever gotten hit by someone spamming crystal frags and they hit for 15k+ each time? I think you haven't. Have you gotten hit by someone with poison injection and they hit you for 10k back to back? I think you haven't.

Third. Just because one class is "beffy" doesn't mean they're OP, from you're point of view you view DK as an survivability tank yet you can shield stack and be just as "beffy". If you wear the right set-up you can be even better.

We can't hold block anymore so Stamina DKs have to rely on out-right DPS especially if they're an off-set Tank like myself. I've faced plenty of classes and by far facing my own class is pretty damn easy. We animation cancel to rely on battle roar to get back some resources that were expended from the battle but you can out-right crush us if you have a decent rotation.

From the looks of it you just lack a decent rotation to combat any kind of player which in return makes you feel that DK is OP when they're seriously under-powered lacking any real damage dealing DoTs, AoEs, and a chase breaker e.g. cloak/bolt escape.

MaxwellC

Telling you right now it's not that DK is OP it's that you have a bad rotation to counter abilities, it's time for you to take a look at your skill bar and make better preparations rather than blaming it on "in-balances".

Like I stated before they're are a variety of class specific and non class specific CCs you could easily invest in to stop wrecking blow and even if you back up a few meters it'll cancel its-self out.

Addition: a little fyi I've been 3 hit by a NB who cloaked and wrecking blow'd me but not once did I cry and moan that wrecking blow was OP nor did I moan at the fact that NB fear'd me then went cloak'd and knock me upwards before spamming wrecking blow.

AJ_1988

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I guess this is another post that heralds the idea of "NERF ALL DKS TILL EXTINCT" kind of post.

This really needs to come to an end, we DKs have suffered the brunt of the nerf force, came up with new ideas to be somewhat "useful" in PvP and with nerfs coming in the IC patch we'll have to struggle even harder in both PVP/PVE.

A lot of Sorcs and NBs always say this to us when they're not nerf'd "ADAPT" time for you to do the same as well.

Personally I think dks and Templars need buffing instead of constant nerfing. They are buffing nbs stealth even more as well as vampires. They may have increased the cost stack of bolt escape for sorcs but the issue is shield stacking. I can see this game hitting rock bottom with empty servers when IC is given a thorough go through. I for one don't expect to be around much longer. Atleast 50 people on my friends list have left in the last 2 weeks. If this happened for everyone the game would be very empty and ZOS can kiss their jobs goodbye.

Mr_Koh

Just go to king Richards latest broadcast and it's not my lack of rotations because I'm sure I can demolish each and every one of you guys talking about how the fault is my own instead of seeing it yourself. I'll be happy to show you all too how it isn't my rotation.

@MaxwellCrystal
@EnOeZ

So go look at it yourselves. And I'm not crying wrecking blow is op. My skill bar is fine. Do I have to be a streamer for you guys to believe that I'm actually good at the game? Like c'mon this is ridiculous. Just go ahead and watch the vids.

Joy_Division

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The OP needs to L2P. It's so easy to avoid a WB.

Actually it's going to be more difficult in 2.1 because your stamina that you need to avoid will deplete faster.

Mr_Koh

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Telling you right now it's not that DK is OP it's that you have a bad rotation to counter abilities, it's time for you to take a look at your skill bar and make better preparations rather than blaming it on "in-balances".

Like I stated before they're are a variety of class specific and non class specific CCs you could easily invest in to stop wrecking blow and even if you back up a few meters it'll cancel its-self out.

Addition: a little fyi I've been 3 hit by a NB who cloaked and wrecking blow'd me but not once did I cry and moan that wrecking blow was OP nor did I moan at the fact that NB fear'd me then went cloak'd and knock me upwards before spamming wrecking blow.

You got hit with a fear... Then the enemy used cloak and used wrecking blow, and you lost to this?? ? AND YOU SAY I'M BAD?

It makes sense now why you're saying all of these things. You need to look at your rotation and learn to cc break if you got feared into an uppercut.

I wouldn't be surprised if you made that up for the sake of argument because nightblades don't even play like that for the most part. It's not effective at all. Unless he was in heavy armor because in that case you can do anything you want and do good dmg while taking no damage

Alcast

Joy_Division wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

The OP needs to L2P. It's so easy to avoid a WB.

Actually it's going to be more difficult in 2.1 because your stamina that you need to avoid will deplete faster.

Yep, will be awesomo seeing Magicka classes roll once and block once and bb stamina. Then you cant "avoid" wblow anymore.

Waugh

The problem is that the competence uppercut made too many damages and that the benefits of the execut passive. And with the DK, coupled with the ulti which is based on physical damage, it is very easy to kill someone in two see three shots.

Now, it's been a month since I'm on the PTS (big player), and believe me that this meta well rots the game because it is strictly impossible for a magicka to cope or even see an intermediate stamina (although wants the logic that hits harder). Balancing is not living up to what was expected of the Imperial cited.

The solution was to remove the execut passiv of upercut or we can give chance interompre this skill.

Another thing, there is also a problem with reductions damage that allows a tank to make big DPS stamina. It seemed that ZeniMax wanted the staminas can have a big DPS but lower survival compared to magicka, it's really not win.


Personally, I expect to see the first month to see if the balance will be done otherwise I think I'll stop playing (and subscription too.)

Sorry if my English is bad, I use google translate: D

sabresandiego_ESO

Koh is right, there is definitely a problem with specific DK builds that have unlimited sustain with dwarven sphere, earthen heart passives like battle roar, black rose heavy armor that are in heavy armor and can essentially still perma block thanks to the passive that restores stamina when using earthen heart abilities, being nearly unkillable while at the same time dealing massive damage with the puncture ability or wrecking blow into dragon leap into executioner, or petrify into a similar combo. You can even use the broken reverberating bash with this build which bugs out your character into an unbreakable cc animation with arms flailing. It's a broken build right now, one of the strongest although it is beatable but extremely difficult to do so. It is very difficult to burst through heavy armor and perma block, the only real way to beat this build is to run it out of stamina, which is almost impossible but I have done it before with constant offense and fear on every cooldown. This is the only known counter and it doesnt work well, the build essentially has unlimited sustain, max offense, and max defense. It is currently the strongest build in the game of any class.

Dracane

Wrecking blow is fine. It has its trade off and I think, almost all abilites in the game are fine as they are right now.

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Koh is right, there is definitely a problem with specific DK builds that have unlimited sustain with dwarven sphere, earthen heart passives like battle roar, black rose heavy armor that are in heavy armor and can essentially still perma block thanks to the passive that restores stamina when using earthen heart abilities, being nearly unkillable while at the same time dealing massive damage with the puncture ability or wrecking blow into dragon leap into executioner, or petrify into a similar combo. You can even use the broken reverberating bash with this build which bugs out your character into an unbreakable cc animation with arms flailing. It's a broken build right now, one of the strongest although it is beatable but extremely difficult to do so. It is very difficult to burst through heavy armor and perma block, the only real way to beat this build is to run it out of stamina, which is almost impossible but I have done it before with constant offense and fear on every cooldown. This is the only known counter and it doesnt work well, the build essentially has unlimited sustain, max offense, and max defense. It is currently the strongest build in the game of any class.

And this comes from a DK (you are a DK if you are who I think you are)
You're right and I expected this kind of build to exist with this update. It was inevtiable, that people will find ways to maintain permablocking and DK is by far the best in doing so. Not saying DK needs nerfs or so, only some adjustment to disable such combos.

Scyantific

There will never be a perfect balance in PvP. The moment you can get that into your head is the moment you start having fun trying to figure out how to defeat your opponents with skill and not just spamming the FOTM skills and builds.

Dracane

Scyantific wrote: »

There will never be a perfect balance in PvP. The moment you can get that into your head is the moment you start having fun trying to figure out how to defeat your opponents with skill and not just spamming the FOTM skills and builds.

Right. There can't be perfect balance.

Sharee

A guy in heavy armor is finally hard to kill? About time, i'd say.

pmn100b16_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

A guy in heavy armor is finally hard to kill? About time, i'd say.

The unbeatable DKs going round on pts right now are medium armour. Well over 2k weapon power whilst achieving approx 30k spell AND physical resist at the same time. They are blocking a lot although not perma-blocking. It is a particularly effective build for the DK because of the sustain available with battle roar and cheap dragon leap ulti, and stamina regen from Helping Hands passive. They take next to no damage whilst dishing out massive damage with wrecking blow and dragon leap.