This game needs to be more like Ultima Online

starkerealm

danno8 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Cervanteseric85ub17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Olivierko wrote: »

A issue that comes to mind when considering open world PvP for ESO would be the fact that ESO isn't an open world game, the world is quite large and there's loads of zones that are greatly under populated than others due to each alliance has each zone differently instanced.

The problem actually exists at a more finite level. There are far too many potential choke points for griefing. Because of the quest structure, you're going to need to be at specific points.

Combine that with party synergies. And, you'd end up with stuff like the Cyrodiilic Zerg Balls macroing newbies to death. Which would just cripple the population.

Ultima Online has a playerbase south of 100k players. You can't sustain a game like ESO on a population that small. There are players who would pay to play a game like that. But there aren't enough to sustain a modern AAA MMO's production budget.

Tell that to the 3.5 million dollars that have been pledged to Camelot Unchained.....and CU is a pure RvR ( large scale PVP for those that dont know ) in the purest sense. This game will be 100% pvp all the time from the moment you start your character. The devs for this game have even stated that there will hardly be any NPC's, everything will be player made and player run. So you might want to do a little searching before making such a false claim. PvPers have a very large and active community despite what you think.

Isn't the minimum to pledge $35? Would that not mean at best there are 100k people pledging? Or am I missing something?

You're forgetting the part where 3.5 million isn't enough money to bring an MMO to market today. I mean if you want to do a really stripped down retro style game with graphics that looked like they came fresh from 1999, you might be able to. To make something like ESO? You need something in the range of 20 times that. Hell, there were the disputed reports that The Old Republic cost 150-200 million to bring to market. While we don't have the real production budget for ESO, the best guess puts it at around 70-150 million (and yes, that's a huge spread). So... tell me again how 3.5 million is a sign that the money really is there?

Err, I was agreeing with you. I was pointing out how few people had pledged, even in a best case scenario. Unless your quote was meant for the guy I quoted.

Yeah, no, I agree with you. I disagree with Cerv... and I can't figure out which post to quote sometimes. The "you're" was directed at Cervanteseric. Or, at least it was supposed to be.

Dahkoht

Again , it's BS for you , but not for others.

I was well into 20's with original EQ , into 40's now with family and career.

I'm not in a rush to hit max level in PVE or PVP , enjoy the feeling of a world that feels like a virtual world , and prefer the actual mechanic of dying being an actual bad thing and not a travel mechanism.

I'd prefer it if it took me a year to hit max level playing a couple hours a night average , others do too. Again dark souls is popular because there is a following who doesn't want "easy". If I login for an hour and travel to the other side of the world most of the time , chatting along the way as I once did in EQ that's fine with me. That makes it feel like a virtual world. That's what I want in an mmo. Not to instant port to ai dungeon instance number 17 and then do the same again , and again. These AAA next gen mmos are basically lobby games , which isn't what I want. Nor some others.

Back on the budget thing CU is being designed from be ground up to be a small scale mmo. Again no mega server , no thousands of books of lore the majority never read and so on.

I've got faith Jacobs will release CU in an enjoyable state for large scale battles for RvR. With death penalties and little hand holding.

Not for everyone , but anything designed for the masses usually isn't as good as something designed for its actual target audience.

JoLeSi

I think people are just butt hurt because they can't stroke their video game ego enough. Most of us simply want to play a game that we can share with our friends, not brutally murder other players so we can sit at our computers and cheer for ourselves because, 'We're so badass!' All of us enjoy video games, all of us in our own way. A game should cater to all, not just the ego-maniacs.

starkerealm

Dahkoht wrote: »

Again , it's BS for you , but not for others.

BS for a lot of people. Saying, "well, that's not the game for you," is legitimate. Saying, "I want to take something you enjoy and turn it into something you couldn't play," not so much. Which is where this thread started by the way.

The whole problem I see with CU, and, quite frankly this is an issue that's glaringly obvious with a lot of kickstarter game projects, is that the budget is woefully insufficient. Maybe he's got a secret plan to get the game developed and funded. Maybe he lowballed it enormously so he could get some cash to start working, so he could shop a prototype around. Maybe he honestly believes he could get it done for that much money (in which case he's wrong). I don't know. But when someone's coming along now, and saying, I want to build an MMO on this budget? I'm suspicious.

Pillars made more sense, because you could do a game like that in a year with a team of 5 guys working on Unity. Building an MMO? I'm not optimistic.

wraith808

JoLeSi wrote: »

I think people are just butt hurt because they can't stroke their video game ego enough. Most of us simply want to play a game that we can share with our friends, not brutally murder other players so we can sit at our computers and cheer for ourselves because, 'We're so badass!' All of us enjoy video games, all of us in our own way. A game should cater to all, not just the ego-maniacs.

And this is the post we will hold up when we refer to the fact that PVEers say worse things than Carebear.

"You're losing the high ground here, sweetcakes."

Dahkoht

wraith808 wrote: »

JoLeSi wrote: »

I think people are just butt hurt because they can't stroke their video game ego enough. Most of us simply want to play a game that we can share with our friends, not brutally murder other players so we can sit at our computers and cheer for ourselves because, 'We're so badass!' All of us enjoy video games, all of us in our own way. A game should cater to all, not just the ego-maniacs.

And this is the post we will hold up when we refer to the fact that PVEers say worse things than Carebear.

"You're losing the high ground here, sweetcakes."

Didn't you know ?

Any competition between two or more people where someone loses is horrific , only "sociopaths" enjoy playing a video game against another player where you have winner or a loser.

Again , remember we live in an era of participation trophies being expected , and scores need not be kept because , well , it hurts the losers feeling.

Masuimi

JoLeSi wrote: »

A game should cater to all, not just the ego-maniacs.

Amazing games can't be built this way, only mediocre games.

Masuimi

Dahkoht wrote: »

Again , it's BS for you , but not for others.

I was well into 20's with original EQ , into 40's now with family and career.

I'm not in a rush to hit max level in PVE or PVP , enjoy the feeling of a world that feels like a virtual world , and prefer the actual mechanic of dying being an actual bad thing and not a travel mechanism.

I'd prefer it if it took me a year to hit max level playing a couple hours a night average , others do too. Again dark souls is popular because there is a following who doesn't want "easy". If I login for an hour and travel to the other side of the world most of the time , chatting along the way as I once did in EQ that's fine with me. That makes it feel like a virtual world. That's what I want in an mmo. Not to instant port to ai dungeon instance number 17 and then do the same again , and again. These AAA next gen mmos are basically lobby games , which isn't what I want. Nor some others.

Back on the budget thing CU is being designed from be ground up to be a small scale mmo. Again no mega server , no thousands of books of lore the majority never read and so on.

I've got faith Jacobs will release CU in an enjoyable state for large scale battles for RvR. With death penalties and little hand holding.

Not for everyone , but anything designed for the masses usually isn't as good as something designed for its actual target audience.

EQ was my favorite game I ever played. I miss having to try and grab my corpse from Lguk with no items on me or wrecking people on rallos zek.

Games are too easy nowadays.. its kinda sad. Def agree that death should not be a travel mechanism.

domlynchb16_ESO

UO player (1998 - 1999) Everquest (1999-2000)

Those were the good old days on dial up modem.

After a 15 years gaming break, its interesting that only the graphics have improved. THere is still lag/crashes/bugs 15 years later.

UO was an amazing game. Those days will never come back. Expectations and knowledge were lower back then.
If UO was released today it would suck.

As someone mentioned, imperial city is a little bit like UO with open PVP/Mobs. The issue is the damage nerf has made it care-bear friendly. You can hardly 1 or 2 shot anyone anymore - the meta has changed from damage, to who loses magicka/stamina/ first dies..

IXxIronWolfxXI

Yes! Lets let EP members come into AD territory and slaughter everyone walking outside vulkhel guard! Fantastic idea! This isnt even sarcasm! It makes total logical sense for a EP member to walk into our territory, when does this get implemented? O cant wait to get my gank group and focused aim people questing in cyrodil! Such a lore friendly idea!

IXxIronWolfxXI

IXxIronWolfxXI wrote: »

Yes! Lets let EP members come into AD territory and slaughter everyone walking outside vulkhel guard! Fantastic idea! This isnt even sarcasm! It makes total logical sense for a EP member to walk into our territory, when does this get implemented? O cant wait to get my gank group and focused aim people questing in cyrodil! Such a lore friendly idea!

Stonefalls* not cyrodil, my apoligies wrote this after ganking in cyrodil.

Mojmir

Sadly they could've done so much better with faction bases in UO, controlling towns ha potential as well.

Talemire

Yes, please.

Masuimi

IXxIronWolfxXI wrote: »

IXxIronWolfxXI wrote: »

Yes! Lets let EP members come into AD territory and slaughter everyone walking outside vulkhel guard! Fantastic idea! This isnt even sarcasm! It makes total logical sense for a EP member to walk into our territory, when does this get implemented? O cant wait to get my gank group and focused aim people questing in cyrodil! Such a lore friendly idea!

Stonefalls* not cyrodil, my apoligies wrote this after ganking in cyrodil.

I like how you guys exaggerate extreme scenarios that aren't even inline with what the OP suggested, and discredit the whole idea to people that just started reading. Good job.

DaveMoeDee

starkerealm wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Cyrodiil is fine. Nothing needs to be changed just cyrodiil expanded upon. That is literally your option to pvp, go into cyrodiil.

I'll be honest. I love the crap out of Cyrodiil's PvE content. I mean, it'd be cool if there was more of it. But, it is a really nice change of pace from normal gameplay.

Would I play an MMO that was nothing but Cyrodiil? No. No I wouldn't. And I seriously doubt you'd be able to find enough players that would to justify a full MMO like this.

Could you do an open PvP phase? Hmmm, maybe. And the justice system having an asymmetrical opt in PvP could be really interesting. But, as something you foist on everyone? Yeah, not going to happen.

Yeah i would take another pvp zone. An optional one of course I don't like the idea of everyone griefing everyone nonstop. Sure it would be fun for me since i have vet characters and could erase new players, but imagine being a new player. Sheesh sounds like a nightmare lol. Invisible death squads camped outside every main mission looking to sling teabags

Like I said, I am kinda looking forward to the Justice System PvP, assuming it ever arrives. Where you can flag yourself for PvP by wearing an enforcer tabard, or (for the other team) by breaking the law and accruing a bounty. A system where players deliberately opt in, and can wander the world? Yeah, that actually sounds neat to me.

I can't see how this would work in the PvE areas. Do they get rid of guards? Because it makes no balance sense to have the thief attacked by guards, the person stolen from, and other players. Having a bounty should not make you now a target for PvP. Leave that to the guards. Either that, or you have to remove the mechanism of NPCs attacking players with bounties. That could get ridiculous with people just stealing everything in front of all NPCs with impunity.

If they want to add a PvP justice system, it probably needs to be involve completely new mechanics. Obviously they would also have to introduce the ability to hide from other players in PvE zones, which doesn't currently exist. They would also have to add a lot of guards for leveling the playing field in any combat. I'm not sure how that would work as non-VR zones don't have varying levels across the zone and I can kill level 13 mobs in Glenumbra with a level 16 character without having my character scaled down. If a VR1 enforcer decides to attack a level 16 character in Glenumbra, what does the VR1 enforcer get scaled to? Are you going to scale both to a particular level, while keeping their attacks at their normal level when hitting a bear that is also attacking them as they fight?

DaveMoeDee

Masuimi wrote: »

Open world pvp would be awesome. They could just make a server strictly for open world pvp and that way the cry babies could still have their carebear servers.

How does the DSM classify people like you who feel such anger for people who like playing a game the way it was designed? People bought the game because it was ESO, not because they wanted it to be UO.

Perhaps you are being sarcastic. I can only hope.

Mighty_oakk

If you want to pvp you could try a pvp game rather then a mmo

starkerealm

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Cyrodiil is fine. Nothing needs to be changed just cyrodiil expanded upon. That is literally your option to pvp, go into cyrodiil.

I'll be honest. I love the crap out of Cyrodiil's PvE content. I mean, it'd be cool if there was more of it. But, it is a really nice change of pace from normal gameplay.

Would I play an MMO that was nothing but Cyrodiil? No. No I wouldn't. And I seriously doubt you'd be able to find enough players that would to justify a full MMO like this.

Could you do an open PvP phase? Hmmm, maybe. And the justice system having an asymmetrical opt in PvP could be really interesting. But, as something you foist on everyone? Yeah, not going to happen.

Yeah i would take another pvp zone. An optional one of course I don't like the idea of everyone griefing everyone nonstop. Sure it would be fun for me since i have vet characters and could erase new players, but imagine being a new player. Sheesh sounds like a nightmare lol. Invisible death squads camped outside every main mission looking to sling teabags

Like I said, I am kinda looking forward to the Justice System PvP, assuming it ever arrives. Where you can flag yourself for PvP by wearing an enforcer tabard, or (for the other team) by breaking the law and accruing a bounty. A system where players deliberately opt in, and can wander the world? Yeah, that actually sounds neat to me.

I can't see how this would work in the PvE areas. Do they get rid of guards? Because it makes no balance sense to have the thief attacked by guards, the person stolen from, and other players. Having a bounty should not make you now a target for PvP. Leave that to the guards. Either that, or you have to remove the mechanism of NPCs attacking players with bounties. That could get ridiculous with people just stealing everything in front of all NPCs with impunity.

If they want to add a PvP justice system, it probably needs to be involve completely new mechanics. Obviously they would also have to introduce the ability to hide from other players in PvE zones, which doesn't currently exist. They would also have to add a lot of guards for leveling the playing field in any combat. I'm not sure how that would work as non-VR zones don't have varying levels across the zone and I can kill level 13 mobs in Glenumbra with a level 16 character without having my character scaled down. If a VR1 enforcer decides to attack a level 16 character in Glenumbra, what does the VR1 enforcer get scaled to? Are you going to scale both to a particular level, while keeping their attacks at their normal level when hitting a bear that is also attacking them as they fight?

My understanding was, the guard's immortality was temporary, until that phase was added. So at that point, they'd go back to being tough normal enemies, instead of the DKs of doom they are now.

And no one knows how the level scaling was going to work out. That may be at the core of why we haven't heard anything on the subject recently.

Zorrashi

Toggleable open world PvP? No thank you.
In the same way I don't want a PvE only Cyrodil instance, I do not want PvP to get out of its designated zones. Why?

1) Do not want to spread out the Cyrodil population too thin
2) Do not want PvP-centric resources to be developed in PvE areas because they permit open world PvP.
3) Do not want PvP-centric content to be forgotten in development simply because they permit PvP everywhere.
Bonus: Don't want to give more leverage to certain PvP players who want to harass PvE 'carebears' and 'wimps'. Certain players will follow the PvE quester, and certain players will try to hinder the PvE experience by being an A-hole. Granted, we have them now but at least they are out of sight and in fact are not even allowed to effectively hinder anyone in their environment because there is no populated PvE-environment to hinder with PvP. The PvE activities in Cyrodil are purely optional, and because they are in a PvP zone, mostly attract people who consent to a potential PvP encounter.

DaveMoeDee

starkerealm wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Cyrodiil is fine. Nothing needs to be changed just cyrodiil expanded upon. That is literally your option to pvp, go into cyrodiil.

I'll be honest. I love the crap out of Cyrodiil's PvE content. I mean, it'd be cool if there was more of it. But, it is a really nice change of pace from normal gameplay.

Would I play an MMO that was nothing but Cyrodiil? No. No I wouldn't. And I seriously doubt you'd be able to find enough players that would to justify a full MMO like this.

Could you do an open PvP phase? Hmmm, maybe. And the justice system having an asymmetrical opt in PvP could be really interesting. But, as something you foist on everyone? Yeah, not going to happen.

Yeah i would take another pvp zone. An optional one of course I don't like the idea of everyone griefing everyone nonstop. Sure it would be fun for me since i have vet characters and could erase new players, but imagine being a new player. Sheesh sounds like a nightmare lol. Invisible death squads camped outside every main mission looking to sling teabags

Like I said, I am kinda looking forward to the Justice System PvP, assuming it ever arrives. Where you can flag yourself for PvP by wearing an enforcer tabard, or (for the other team) by breaking the law and accruing a bounty. A system where players deliberately opt in, and can wander the world? Yeah, that actually sounds neat to me.

I can't see how this would work in the PvE areas. Do they get rid of guards? Because it makes no balance sense to have the thief attacked by guards, the person stolen from, and other players. Having a bounty should not make you now a target for PvP. Leave that to the guards. Either that, or you have to remove the mechanism of NPCs attacking players with bounties. That could get ridiculous with people just stealing everything in front of all NPCs with impunity.

If they want to add a PvP justice system, it probably needs to be involve completely new mechanics. Obviously they would also have to introduce the ability to hide from other players in PvE zones, which doesn't currently exist. They would also have to add a lot of guards for leveling the playing field in any combat. I'm not sure how that would work as non-VR zones don't have varying levels across the zone and I can kill level 13 mobs in Glenumbra with a level 16 character without having my character scaled down. If a VR1 enforcer decides to attack a level 16 character in Glenumbra, what does the VR1 enforcer get scaled to? Are you going to scale both to a particular level, while keeping their attacks at their normal level when hitting a bear that is also attacking them as they fight?

My understanding was, the guard's immortality was temporary, until that phase was added. So at that point, they'd go back to being tough normal enemies, instead of the DKs of doom they are now.

And no one knows how the level scaling was going to work out. That may be at the core of why we haven't heard anything on the subject recently.

Is that based on comments by developers or based on forum speculation?

And you shouldn't even have guards as enemies if you have PvP through the justice system because the enforcer will always have NPCs helping.

And, yes, we don't know how level scaling would work if they actually had any plans of adding that. But one thing we do know -- it will be very tricking to implement when a single zone includes levels 5-15 (or something like that). Instead of scaling to area, are they going to scale to enemy? Are they going to have stat changes as I cross a river?

I'm skeptical that this will end up something useful that doesn't wreck the game for the majority of players.

Kloud

I checked out unchained and it didn't seen to appealing to me and I'm a mediocre hardcore pvp player the characters and factions just seemed quickly tossed together to me

Kloud

Uo still has the best crafting system I've ever seen in a mmo period with reforging imbuing and every thing else. And the pvp actually was based on player skill an pretty even playing field that's is what makes pvp imo a lvl playing field

Arato

Dahkoht wrote: »

For those saying "no one" wants any old school games.

Pillars of Eternity and its reviews and sales differ in opinion ,for example, publishers for years tried to say no one would buy a Baldurs Gate style game. They were wrong.

I've enjoyed it far more than something like the Witcher 3. Far more in depth and fun. Personal preference , and glad they make it and that Wasteland 2 was made in the same vein. It's better to me than most of the *** AAA games have been for the past decade.

"Next Generation" can often be something trying to reinvent the wheel that doesn't need reinventing.

Game tastes are different for everyone , but don't assume "no one wants DAOC" because you wouldn't like it.

If an EQ server up through Velious with DX 11 graphics launched tomorrow or DAOC before TOA with the same I'd never login to any of these current "next gen" games again.

I just prefer real death penalties , less bland class balancing , travel meaning something and so on.

There's plenty of people who do like the mechanics of first gen mmos.

Just glad that as indie developers are making smaller scale games for certain audiences is taking off , there looks to be more options for players of different tastes.

And nothing wrong with ESO not being this type of game either , just get people need to not tell others that "no one" wants their style of gameplay preference.

from what I've heard, Divinity: Original Sin is a far superior "old school" style RPG. I haven't played POE because I have never enjoyed an Obsidian game (they're just awful, only Obsidian is capable of making a game buggier than Bethesda can, but with less vision than Bethesda brings to their games)