Buffing Dragon Blood's healing percentage to over 100% (renamed)

Saturn

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

I know it might not be considered an exploit, but I am intentionally abusing a skill and the broken percentages to achieve unintentionally high amounts of healing with a heal that is percentage based and should therefore not be affected, as far as I understand it at least.

Personofsecrets

what is broken?

Kronuxx

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

Saturn

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

EDIT:

The math, as I assume it should work:

33% (base heal) x 25% (blessed 100p) = 41.25%
41.25% x 84.75% (all the different percentages added together) = 76.2%
Which means (if my Math is correct), the 94.7% is almost 20% higher than it should be.
But I am probably wrong, regardless the game's calculations are incorrect, there are several indicators of it. Someone better at the math than me should be able to add this up and actually explain what I am unable to. Lol, where is @Garkin, when you need him.

Personofsecrets

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Saturn

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Where? Please quote me.

Personofsecrets

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Where? Please quote me.

Saturn wrote: »

Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.

Xsorus

Hmm, 1600 Flame Lashes in that video..

yea...

Saturn

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Where? Please quote me.

Saturn wrote: »

Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.

Right, but if you look at the Unassailable set difference you can see that it applies it on top of it, meaning the calculations are each done separately, it also shows the difference between the two buff types.

I would assume the correct way for it to be calculated would be adding all the healing taken percentages together before the calculations (like 33% multiplied with (all the percentages together)), when in the game they work like this: 33% multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, etc. It isn't a straight 8% increase and yes does have "diminishing returns" in a sense, but not in the way it should. Diminishing returns is something that lessens the more you increase something, like the game had with soft caps pre Update 6.

If the calculations were done as I suspect they are intended to, meaning Base Value multiplied by All Combined Percentages, it would not get to be that much.

As I wrote in a previous comment:

The math, as I assume it should work:

33% (base heal) x 25% (blessed 100p) = 41.25%
41.25% x 84.75% (all the different percentages added together) = 76.2%
Which means (if my Math is correct), the 94.7% is almost 20% higher than it should be.
But I am probably wrong, regardless the game's calculations are incorrect, there are several indicators of it. Someone better at the math than me should be able to add this up and actually explain what I am unable to. Lol, where is @Garkin, when you need him.

I don't claim to be a genius, but please tell me you understand what I am saying.

SIDENOTE:

Notice how the Healer set applied with its "healing increased buff" and how the Unassailable applied with its "healing taken", obviously one works correctly and the other does not.

Saturn

Xsorus wrote: »

Hmm, 1600 Flame Lashes in that video..

yea...

Some people take less damage.

Just yesterday I smacked someone for 7.6k, generally it hits for about 3-4k non-crit. I never claimed for it to be powerful, and my current setup also requires me to have entropy active to achieve about 2k spell damage, without that buff it hits for less obviously. The strength of my setup clearly isn't the Wet Noodle like slaps with my Lame Lash.

Just wait until an actual good PvPer picks this up. I can imagine someone like Vortexman will be as hard to kill after Update 7 as before, lol.

Stalwart385

So you fully invest in healing in the champion system, the rest of your build is heavily invested in healing, you have to cast two expensive spells in preparation, then you can cast an almost full health spell. So full investment and three spells. This also assumes you can have your buffs up in preparation of the main heal. Templars can fully heal in two or three casts and not be spec'ed or prepared for it. I don't see the big deal.

Saturn

Stalwart385 wrote: »

So you fully invest in healing in the champion system, the rest of your build is heavily invested in healing, you have to cast two expensive spells in preparation, then you can cast an almost full health spell. So full investment and three spells. This also assumes you can have your buffs up in preparation of the main heal. Templars can fully heal in two or three casts and not be spec'ed or prepared for it. I don't see the big deal.

Yes, yes, yes. People keep making the same comparison to templars. But why do I on the PTS last longer than all the templars then? I am literally taking a beating from multiple people and staying alive as long as my magicka (sometime stamina) permits, this is without blocking mind you. Also, the fact that I even made this post was more centered around the idea that this fixed heal can always do 100% of my missing health (at least outside of Cyrodiil), in Cyrodiil we are talking around 70%, even more if you are using Twilight's Embrace, since that set seems to be unaffected by Battle Spirit in the way that it buffs a heal.

Sure this isn't probably the optimal build, sure there are probably better tank builds. But, fact of the matter is that the calculations of Healing Taken buffs + the Blessed Champion Passive are waaay off. Blessed is so broken that it makes it possible Dragon Blood heal at full health, which shouldn't be possible, lol.

I made this post to simply draw attention to the way the calculations are done are probably wrong. Some percentages straight out work additively and not multiplicatively like Quick To Mend seems to do.

This is not a "look at my awesome build and how good it is" kind of post, this is more akin to a bug report, except this way it is more accessible to other people wanting to test it out, instead of allowing ZOS to ignore it if I simply /bug reported in game.

Personofsecrets

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Where? Please quote me.

Saturn wrote: »

Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.

Right, but if you look at the Unassailable set difference you can see that it applies it on top of it, meaning the calculations are each done separately, it also shows the difference between the two buff types.

I would assume the correct way for it to be calculated would be adding all the healing taken percentages together before the calculations (like 33% multiplied with (all the percentages together)), when in the game they work like this: 33% multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, etc. It isn't a straight 8% increase and yes does have "diminishing returns" in a sense, but not in the way it should. Diminishing returns is something that lessens the more you increase something, like the game had with soft caps pre Update 6.

If the calculations were done as I suspect they are intended to, meaning Base Value multiplied by All Combined Percentages, it would not get to be that much.

As I wrote in a previous comment:

The math, as I assume it should work:

33% (base heal) x 25% (blessed 100p) = 41.25%
41.25% x 84.75% (all the different percentages added together) = 76.2%
Which means (if my Math is correct), the 94.7% is almost 20% higher than it should be.
But I am probably wrong, regardless the game's calculations are incorrect, there are several indicators of it. Someone better at the math than me should be able to add this up and actually explain what I am unable to. Lol, where is @Garkin, when you need him.

I don't claim to be a genius, but please tell me you understand what I am saying.

SIDENOTE:

Notice how the Healer set applied with its "healing increased buff" and how the Unassailable applied with its "healing taken", obviously one works correctly and the other does not.

This isn't the only stat in the game that works like that. Block cost mitigation is very similar.



Long story short. Some ways of gaining block cost mitigation work very well together in an undiminished way, but they don't 'play well' with other ways of adding block cost reduction.

This seems to be the same deal with what you have discovered with healing percentages. Some ways of adding to healing work in one way and other ways of adding to healing work in a different way.

Saturn

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Where? Please quote me.

Saturn wrote: »

Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.

Right, but if you look at the Unassailable set difference you can see that it applies it on top of it, meaning the calculations are each done separately, it also shows the difference between the two buff types.

I would assume the correct way for it to be calculated would be adding all the healing taken percentages together before the calculations (like 33% multiplied with (all the percentages together)), when in the game they work like this: 33% multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, etc. It isn't a straight 8% increase and yes does have "diminishing returns" in a sense, but not in the way it should. Diminishing returns is something that lessens the more you increase something, like the game had with soft caps pre Update 6.

If the calculations were done as I suspect they are intended to, meaning Base Value multiplied by All Combined Percentages, it would not get to be that much.

As I wrote in a previous comment:

The math, as I assume it should work:

33% (base heal) x 25% (blessed 100p) = 41.25%
41.25% x 84.75% (all the different percentages added together) = 76.2%
Which means (if my Math is correct), the 94.7% is almost 20% higher than it should be.
But I am probably wrong, regardless the game's calculations are incorrect, there are several indicators of it. Someone better at the math than me should be able to add this up and actually explain what I am unable to. Lol, where is @Garkin, when you need him.

I don't claim to be a genius, but please tell me you understand what I am saying.

SIDENOTE:

Notice how the Healer set applied with its "healing increased buff" and how the Unassailable applied with its "healing taken", obviously one works correctly and the other does not.

This isn't the only stat in the game that works like that. Block cost mitigation is very similar.



Long story short. Some ways of gaining block cost mitigation work very well together in an undiminished way, but they don't 'play well' with other ways of adding block cost reduction.

This seems to be the same deal with what you have discovered with healing percentages. Some ways of adding to healing work in one way and other ways of adding to healing work in a different way.

Interesting. Yes you are right, but I think this "working well together in an undiminished way" is completely unintentional. It is very likely that ZOS will at some point fix whatever is doing the wonky calculations.

If not I get to keep my ridiculous setup, which I honestly wouldn't mind, I'm having loads of fun with it both on Live and PTS.


I made an interesting observation yesterday on the PTS, by the way:

You know how magma armour reduces the damage you take to be 3% of your max health? Well, on the PTS the 50% damage reduction to a player applies ontop of that, meaning that you only take 1.5% of your max health from players when you have it active. I thought that was quite interesting at least, I can definitely see it being used a lot more since it makes it impossible for a zerg to kill you.

Personofsecrets

I wouldn't call the block cost mitigation stacking unintended. It actually seems intended for 5 piece heavy armor and sword and board to give 50% block mitigation (soft capped)

The champion point passive for block cost mitigation stacks in it's own unique way. The 25% that it claims to give at 100 points of investment is actually only 12.5 percent (half), but that 50% diminished return is only achieved with the full 100 points. So with 90 points the percent difference may only by 45% or something.

These things seem to have been planned to me. Difference of opinion and assumptions I suppose.

Joy_Division

I would hardly call investing so many options into healing received just so you can hit three buttons in quick succession to recover your lost health exploitative.

Personofsecrets

As long as it isn't called "not really that interactive and not really that fun"

Francescolg

Has anyone tested such, or a similar, build for templars? how did you find it?

Saturn

Francescolg wrote: »

Has anyone tested such, or a similar, build for templars? how did you find it?

I will give it a test on the PTS this week.

The way I would do it would probably be with Breath of Life, while inside Purifying Ritual for the 30% extra healing from Focused Healing passive. If I do it I will link you a picture of it.

Fizzlewizzle

Francescolg wrote: »

Has anyone tested such, or a similar, build for templars? how did you find it?

I have... since Launch.
Depending on the heal you use you can get extraordinary healing numbers. Personally i like to use Healing Ritual, as it packs the biggest punch of all healing skills.
(My current 0% extra healing build already does 22K heals with Healing Ritual).

My personal set-up for this is:
- Argonian (7% healing bonus)
- 7/7 heavy armor (All Divines Trait)
- SnB (Board also with Divines Trait)
- 5/5 Twilights Embrace (10% extra healing)
- 4/5 Shalidor's Curse (4% extra healing)
- 3X Unassailable (Jewels, 4% extra healing)
(Going 3/5 Shalidor and 4X Unassailable would give you another 4% healing Received).
- Ritual Stone
- Restoring focus (another 8% + the 30% bonus from Focused healing)

This is basically the build i'm going back to for the IC update. With the few healing received buffs it will most likely be a beast build.

(Might go for second slot Restoration staff. Restoration staff's Rapid Regeneration + Vigor might be a good combo for staying alive)

Saturn

@Francescolg

Full light armour (4x Overwhelming Surge, 3x Spell Power Cure):

- 27854 Breath of Life crit heal -

Full heavy (4x The Tormentor, 3x Leeching) - 12% increased healing taken, 7% from heavy armour:

- 28083 Breath of Life crit heal -

Mix (4x The Tormentor, 3x Spell Power Cure) - 8% increased healing taken, 4% from heavy armour:

- 28101 Breath of Life crit heal -

Using the Mix with Healing Ritual:

- 47537 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Make of this what you will. Hope it helps

NOTE: All jewellery, enchants, armour traits, etc. was all the same. I also had no Undaunted Passives, but did have all armour passives. This was with the Ritual Mundus stone.

My own conclusion is that Templar heals benefit more from max magicka, so having purely healing taken buffs won't just do it, you have to stack magicka too. Also, having 1 piece of each armour type for the 6% undaunted passive increase will help a lot too.

EDIT:

Molag Kena mix (4x The Tormentor, 2x Spell Power Cure, 1x Molag Kena) - The Molag Kena piece is medium for the increased Undaunted Passive (6%) and spell damage, even though magicka is less the heal is bigger than the Mix:

- 49514 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Mix (4x The Tormentor, 3x Spell Power Cure) - with Undaunted Passive (4%):

- 49359 Healing Ritual crit heal -

aco5712

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

1) Not one single thing mentioned by the OP is an "exploit". Working the math is what theory-crafting is all about.

2) There is nothing "overpowered" about healing for the entire amount of your health. There are mobs in Veteran Dungeons and even some Craglorn Delves that can hit you for 20K or MORE in one shot.

But the math is wrong <.<

Kronuxx wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Something I will like to point out is the fact that I don't actually run this setup to the extreme, yes, I can push the healing of dragon blood to over 90% on my Khajiit DK on Live, but on the setup I run, which has defense and offense (in form of sets chosen), I can get about 77%. Most people assume I run the exact setup, but they forget that this is a PTS toon and I am just trying to prove a point by stacking everything to the extreme. I get that a setup like this won't be optimal for PvP until I have 600 ish CPs, but that's not the whole idea of this post.

I am merely proving something is possible, similar to if I wanted to expose an exploit I would record how it was done so it could be fixed.

I bolded the part that I will address. I've noticed your thread post and went over your comments. I'm not sure what your concern is? What exactly is there to fix? This is such a novelty build, that you have to invest into specific armor, skill points, champion points just to accomplish what you're doing. To go by your logic with the thought that "Oh no, look how high I can stack my healing percentage received", then anyone who creates a novelty build would have to be concerned. Rather, this is part of the charm of ESO. The ability to create different builds and still be somewhat successful with them. Other the hand, builds such as yours, may not be the most viable in regards to striking a balance between both dps and damage mitigation, hence why such a thing as "cookie cutter" builds exist in the first place. This is because they usually work and tend to accomplish this balance and therefore why even beginners will look them up and use them.

I recall last year, someone with a khajiit NB (i think it was on tamrial foundry forums or here) was able to achieve close to 90% crit and high crit damage but unfortunately they were more of a wet toilet paper weight. Again, it's a novelty build, it's unique but not the most viable when it comes to both dps and damage mitigation.

Instead of trying to get a rise out of ZOS to nerf a build or particular skill that allows for build diversity and is working within it's realm of intended purpose (I mean, I guess if you want everyone to be just "another brick in the wall" then be my guest, although I'll hate you for it), you should embrace it. And if you can become good with it, then great even the better. Makes you unique, and allows one less person to be a copy-cat staff wielding DK (like in the ol' days of ESO).

In addition, I'm surprised you weren't causing a riot with the broken game mechanics of action-canceling, or even block casting. Those are more in line with abuse of game mechanics than what you are posting here.

In short, this skill is not an exploit (it's obviously working within it's realm of intended purpose), your build is not an exploit, and for the love of god, nothing more needs to be nerfed on DK's. Cause we all know we've had enough of those actions plagued upon us.

At no point do I request Dragonknights be nerfed, not at any point did I even mention that. My post is all about drawing attention to THE REALLY BROKEN MATH WITH PERCENTAGES, I even *** mention that percentages seem to work additively and not multiplicatively and people have no clue what I am even talking about, because most people don't bother doing the math required to figure out that the calculations are wrong. What I am pointing out here should not be possible, I will do the math for what the percentage should more like later and let you know, but it sure as *** shouldn't allow for 95% or more of missing health returned when using Dragon Blood.

Just think of this. IF I CAN STACK THIS KIND OF *** BECAUSE IT IS BROKEN, then what else can be stacked? We've already seen the extreme where people on the PTS could achieve 100% damage mitigation. I am drawing attention to the fact that the calculations are off, the percentages don't behave like percentages should, they behave as though they are simple being added onto one another, like say if it was 1 + 1 = 2. Percentages should have diminishing returns since they (should) work off of a base value, not off of each other. 33% of missing health returned increased by 10%, should be 36.3%, but is in ESO 43%, because the math is broken.

It's the math that is the problem, not the class, not the race (even if that race has a broken percentage in it). Just the math. Hopefully people will read this and realise it now. Lol.

You showed that what you did lead to diminishing returns.

Where? Please quote me.

Saturn wrote: »

Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.

Right, but if you look at the Unassailable set difference you can see that it applies it on top of it, meaning the calculations are each done separately, it also shows the difference between the two buff types.

I would assume the correct way for it to be calculated would be adding all the healing taken percentages together before the calculations (like 33% multiplied with (all the percentages together)), when in the game they work like this: 33% multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, multiplied by x%, etc. It isn't a straight 8% increase and yes does have "diminishing returns" in a sense, but not in the way it should. Diminishing returns is something that lessens the more you increase something, like the game had with soft caps pre Update 6.

If the calculations were done as I suspect they are intended to, meaning Base Value multiplied by All Combined Percentages, it would not get to be that much.

As I wrote in a previous comment:

The math, as I assume it should work:

33% (base heal) x 25% (blessed 100p) = 41.25%
41.25% x 84.75% (all the different percentages added together) = 76.2%
Which means (if my Math is correct), the 94.7% is almost 20% higher than it should be.
But I am probably wrong, regardless the game's calculations are incorrect, there are several indicators of it. Someone better at the math than me should be able to add this up and actually explain what I am unable to. Lol, where is @Garkin, when you need him.

I don't claim to be a genius, but please tell me you understand what I am saying.

SIDENOTE:

Notice how the Healer set applied with its "healing increased buff" and how the Unassailable applied with its "healing taken", obviously one works correctly and the other does not.

This isn't the only stat in the game that works like that. Block cost mitigation is very similar.



Long story short. Some ways of gaining block cost mitigation work very well together in an undiminished way, but they don't 'play well' with other ways of adding block cost reduction.

This seems to be the same deal with what you have discovered with healing percentages. Some ways of adding to healing work in one way and other ways of adding to healing work in a different way.

that was hella useful for deciding my jewelry enchants for the coming patch. Thank you for the testing.

bigereard

Saturn wrote: »

@Francescolg

Full light armour (4x Overwhelming Surge, 3x Spell Power Cure):

- 27854 Breath of Life crit heal -

Full heavy (4x The Tormentor, 3x Leeching) - 12% increased healing taken, 7% from heavy armour:

- 28083 Breath of Life crit heal -

Mix (4x The Tormentor, 3x Spell Power Cure) - 8% increased healing taken, 4% from heavy armour:

- 28101 Breath of Life crit heal -

Using the Mix with Healing Ritual:

- 47537 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Make of this what you will. Hope it helps

NOTE: All jewellery, enchants, armour traits, etc. was all the same. I also had no Undaunted Passives, but did have all armour passives. This was with the Ritual Mundus stone.

My own conclusion is that Templar heals benefit more from max magicka, so having purely healing taken buffs won't just do it, you have to stack magicka too. Also, having 1 piece of each armour type for the 6% undaunted passive increase will help a lot too.

EDIT:

Molag Kena mix (4x The Tormentor, 2x Spell Power Cure, 1x Molag Kena) - The Molag Kena piece is medium for the increased Undaunted Passive (6%) and spell damage, even though magicka is less the heal is bigger than the Mix:

- 49514 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Mix (4x The Tormentor, 3x Spell Power Cure) - with Undaunted Passive (4%):

- 49359 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Great job! Thank you for sharing.

back to the first case in your post, if I calculated this way, I think the math is not off that much

33% (base) * 125% (Blessed) * 144% (Total Healing Taken/Recieved) * 115.8% (Quick Recovery) * 140.75% (Total Healing Done/Initiated) = 96.8%

I actually still not sure how the healing is calculated.

If it's possible, could you please conduct a test how all of this related with battle spirit and major & minor defile.

I really hope that I have time to do the test myself before 2.1 become live, but unfortunately I think I dont.

Saturn

bigereard wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@Francescolg

Full light armour (4x Overwhelming Surge, 3x Spell Power Cure):

- 27854 Breath of Life crit heal -

Full heavy (4x The Tormentor, 3x Leeching) - 12% increased healing taken, 7% from heavy armour:

- 28083 Breath of Life crit heal -

Mix (4x The Tormentor, 3x Spell Power Cure) - 8% increased healing taken, 4% from heavy armour:

- 28101 Breath of Life crit heal -

Using the Mix with Healing Ritual:

- 47537 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Make of this what you will. Hope it helps

NOTE: All jewellery, enchants, armour traits, etc. was all the same. I also had no Undaunted Passives, but did have all armour passives. This was with the Ritual Mundus stone.

My own conclusion is that Templar heals benefit more from max magicka, so having purely healing taken buffs won't just do it, you have to stack magicka too. Also, having 1 piece of each armour type for the 6% undaunted passive increase will help a lot too.

EDIT:

Molag Kena mix (4x The Tormentor, 2x Spell Power Cure, 1x Molag Kena) - The Molag Kena piece is medium for the increased Undaunted Passive (6%) and spell damage, even though magicka is less the heal is bigger than the Mix:

- 49514 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Mix (4x The Tormentor, 3x Spell Power Cure) - with Undaunted Passive (4%):

- 49359 Healing Ritual crit heal -

Great job! Thank you for sharing.

back to the first case in your post, if I calculated this way, I think the math is not off that much

33% (base) * 125% (Blessed) * 144% (Total Healing Taken/Recieved) * 115.8% (Quick Recovery) * 140.75% (Total Healing Done/Initiated) = 96.8%

I actually still not sure how the healing is calculated.

If it's possible, could you please conduct a test how all of this related with battle spirit and major & minor defile.

I really hope that I have time to do the test myself before 2.1 become live, but unfortunately I think I dont.

There's a definite difference between Healing Initiated buffs like Healer's Habit set and Healing Taken buffs such as the Unassailable set. They are calculated different (as you show with calculating Blessed first), and I also suspect they work as intended, where they only increase the healing based on base value of the heal (Multiplicatively), instead of increasing off the increased version (working Additively).

I am sad to say your calculations are a bit off at least from what I can tell:

33% (base heal) * 25% (Blessed) * x% (from all Healing Taken buffs, gear, Quick Recovery, Rapid Mending, Quick to Mend, Igneous Shield, Coagulating Blood, Burning Heart) * 10% (Twilight's Embrace 5 piece effect, this is applied after all the other calculations) = ___

At least that is how I believe it should work, BUT, all the Healing Taken buffs as before stated, seem to apply after one another instead of as one, meaning all healing taken are calculated like this:

x% * x% * x% * x% * x% etc.


As for Defile debuffs stacking with Battle Spirit in unfortunate ways I have not tried to mess around with / encountered. I unfortunately haven't got any people willing to help me test it.

bigereard

@Saturn

I'm afraid I must disagree with you once again my friend,

Igneous shield is not healing taken buff, but healing done, it's apply Major Mending buff (+30% healing done)
the + 30% healing taken is Major Vitality, from NB's Soul Siphon.

Major Mending is on different category with healing taken, thus it's stack and should stack multiplicatively.

---

The things that I am not sure is blessed and quick recovery. (I'm also not sure with twilight's embrace)
Blessed is healing done, so naturally its should stack additively with major mending (igneous shield) and Ritual Mundus stone, then multiplicatively with total healing taken/received (include quick recovery, most gear, coagulated buff (Minor Vitality), and burning heart)

But most champion bonus is multiplicative with other bonus, like in regen, damage, cost reduction,etc
You can get the detail formula in cat build planner:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2149167 (latest)
So it'll also make sense if blessed and quick recovery stack multiplicatively.

Let's compare:

1) If blessed and quick recovery stack additively with each category it'll be:
33% (base) * 159.8% (Total Healing Taken/Recieved) * 165.75% (Total Healing Done/Initiated) = 87.4%

2) If blessed and quick recovery stack multiplicatively with each category it'll be:
33% (base) * 125% (Blessed) * 144% (Total Healing Taken/Recieved) * 115.8% (Quick Recovery) * 140.75% (Total Healing Done/Initiated) = 96.8%

3) If all healing taken & done stack additively, you will received 74.43% missing health healing with coagulated blood.

4) If all healing taken & done stack multiplicatively, you will received 104.78% missing health healing with coagulated blood.

Your build Healing = 94.7%
The closest one is number 2 scenario, the little different in number I think is due to health regeneration (maybe, not sure).

---

I really want to test healing build but I only have live game in my laptop, and my internet access is limited right now, the PTS is in my PC back home.

Please keep sharing your test with us, thank you

Saturn

bigereard wrote: »

@Saturn

I'm afraid I must disagree with you once again my friend,

Igneous shield is not healing taken buff, but healing done, it's apply Major Mending buff (+30% healing done)
the + 30% healing taken is Major Vitality, from NB's Soul Siphon.

Major Mending is on different category with healing taken, thus it's stack and should stack multiplicatively.

---

The things that I am not sure is blessed and quick recovery. (I'm also not sure with twilight's embrace)
Blessed is healing done, so naturally its should stack additively with major mending (igneous shield) and Ritual Mundus stone, then multiplicatively with total healing taken/received (include quick recovery, most gear, coagulated buff (Minor Vitality), and burning heart)

But most champion bonus is multiplicative with other bonus, like in regen, damage, cost reduction,etc
You can get the detail formula in cat build planner:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2149167 (latest)
So it'll also make sense if blessed and quick recovery stack multiplicatively.

Let's compare:

1) If blessed and quick recovery stack additively with each category it'll be:
33% (base) * 159.8% (Total Healing Taken/Recieved) * 165.75% (Total Healing Done/Initiated) = 87.4%

2) If blessed and quick recovery stack multiplicatively with each category it'll be:
33% (base) * 125% (Blessed) * 144% (Total Healing Taken/Recieved) * 115.8% (Quick Recovery) * 140.75% (Total Healing Done/Initiated) = 96.8%

3) If all healing taken & done stack additively, you will received 74.43% missing health healing with coagulated blood.

4) If all healing taken & done stack multiplicatively, you will received 104.78% missing health healing with coagulated blood.

Your build Healing = 94.7%
The closest one is number 2 scenario, the little different in number I think is due to health regeneration (maybe, not sure).

---

I really want to test healing build but I only have live game in my laptop, and my internet access is limited right now, the PTS is in my PC back home.

Please keep sharing your test with us, thank you

Oh well damn, I keep mixing up Healing Taken and Healing Done, lol, I could have sworn Ritual and Igneous was healing taken, guess I was wrong. You know when you quote something and then forget to read the actual quote, yeah that's me, lol.

But yeah this is how I assume it is: Base heal * healing done * healing taken * Twilight's Embrace. With the test I did on my Khajiit DK I found that the difference with and without Twilights Embrace was very significant, which is what leads me to believe that it is applied after all the other ones.

I think Blessed has to be bugged in some way, just because it makes your Dragon Blood able to heal you at full health, which no other Healing Done / Healing Taken buffs do. Try and mess around with it on live, as soon as you put 1 point into Blessed Dragon Blood suddenly heals at max health, even though it is <Missing Health> * <Dragon Blood Percentage>, which when you have 0 missing health should always be 0.

As for the way things work additively and multiplicatively, it is really nothing I have much proof of other than what I can tell. For example, I had 10 points in Quick Recovery = 4% increase, then got 30 points in it = 8%, and saw a 4% increase in healing, if this passive worked multiplicatively it would be a near insignificant increase.

Also, here is a test (posted earlier in the thread) I did that supports my theory of Healing Taken working additively or at least being calculated erroneously, and Healing Done being applied differently / separately / perhaps correctly?:

Tried Healer's Habit, made my Live toon's 77% go to 81.7%, with its 8% increased healing from the 5 pieces.
Tried Unassaible, made my Live toon's 77% go to 83.9%, with its 8% increased healing taken from 3 and 4 piece effects.

77% increased by 8% gives ~83%, which shows it being additive, as it is calculated off of the actual value, instead of being applied off of either A, Base Value or B, together with all the other healing taken buff.

Saturn

@bigereard

If it's possible, could you please conduct a test how all of this related with battle spirit and major & minor defile.


So I got a friend to help me test the defile buffs on their own, this is not in regards to the build / setup here.

Here are my debuffs:


Here is my friends Point of View without debuffs (he is using Blessing of Protection as the heal):


And with debuffs:


Calculation:

Base heal --- 808 (with debuff) / 1153 (without debuff) = 0.70 = 70% = 30% reduced healing

Crit heals --- 1252 (with debuff) / 1787 (without debuff) = 0.70 = 70% = 30% reduced healing

Conclusion:

Rather than horribly stacking with the Battle Spirit healing debuff / eachother additively, the minor defile seems to not do anything to healing done at all.
My method of applying them was Major Defile (in the form of the Ultimate) followed by Minor Defile (in the form of a light attack) and also the reverse, i.e. light attack then ultimate.
I also tried only light attacking, which resulted in 5% less healing and only using the ultimate, which still resulted in 30% less healing. Evidence that they do not stack, also, shouldn't minor defile be 15%?
Let me know if I did something wrong, lol.


Don't know if this was the kind of info you were looking for, but what you can take away from this is that apparently the two buffs don't stack (meaning major and minor defile), neither additively or multiplicatively. This is obviously a bug, but I recommend you do some testing on your own when possible. Just to ensure I'm not talking out my arse.

Xsorus

Minor Defile doesn't exist

Disease Damage procs a healing debuff as its status effect (it doesn't always do this), and its a Major Defile debuff.

aco5712

Saturn wrote: »

@bigereard

If it's possible, could you please conduct a test how all of this related with battle spirit and major & minor defile.


So I got a friend to help me test the defile buffs on their own, this is not in regards to the build / setup here.

Here are my debuffs:


Here is my friends Point of View without debuffs (he is using Blessing of Protection as the heal):


And with debuffs:


Calculation:

Base heal --- 808 (with debuff) / 1153 (without debuff) = 0.70 = 70% = 30% reduced healing

Crit heals --- 1252 (with debuff) / 1787 (without debuff) = 0.70 = 70% = 30% reduced healing

Conclusion:

Rather than horribly stacking with the Battle Spirit healing debuff / eachother additively, the minor defile seems to not do anything to healing done at all.
My method of applying them was Major Defile (in the form of the Ultimate) followed by Minor Defile (in the form of a light attack) and also the reverse, i.e. light attack then ultimate.
I also tried only light attacking, which resulted in 5% less healing and only using the ultimate, which still resulted in 30% less healing. Evidence that they do not stack, also, shouldn't minor defile be 15%?
Let me know if I did something wrong, lol.


Don't know if this was the kind of info you were looking for, but what you can take away from this is that apparently the two buffs don't stack (meaning major and minor defile), neither additively or multiplicatively. This is obviously a bug, but I recommend you do some testing on your own when possible. Just to ensure I'm not talking out my arse.

diesease enchant is not a guarenteed minor defile. It has a chance once applied to cause minor defile.

aco5712

Further want to point out that there is diminishing returns on healing. They are very very small (2%) in your case when getting heals that high.