Igneous / Fragmented Shields are now useless - please re-evaluate.

Dracane

Master_Kas wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I agree, shields that scale off health need a decent buff.

DKs and Temps with damage builds need to gain more from their shields but tanky builds shouldnt be unkillable if they stack health. Solution, increase the base value of shields that scale off health and reduce the up scaling.

They should give health shields a base value and add a small percentage the higher the health is.
I don't agree, Templar and Dragonknights should have strong class shields unless they are tanks, because both are shields for tanks. But seems like it's pointless to argue about that, so giving both shields a base value makes them attractive for average health players and still do what they are supposed to do actually: Helping tanks with full health.

Why should they only help tanks? Not every DK/templar wants to be a tank. Just pointing that out.
Sooo if they are not tanks, they shall have tiny damage shields? Doesn't make sense.

topic: ZOS nerfed all damage shields across the board to deal with shieldstacking (which only 1 class does really good compared to the others) and probably didn't even think about DK/temp shields. Hopefully they buff them up in the future, or give them other benefits.

No, they shouldn't have strong damage shields. They have good self heals.
The Dragonknight shield already has a mighty benefit. The Templar shield probably not that strong.
So you want the strongest healing class in the game, to have a strong damage shield as well, even though they already could have strong shields if they would use other shields as well.

All classes complain, they can't have good damage shields, because they refuse to add other shields. Even Sorcerer would be weak, if he wouldn't use non-class shields. Why should Templars and DKs be an exception ? They won't reach the shield value a Sorcerer can reach with all shields active, but they have strong class utility and heals to compensate for that. But you'll never understand that.

trimsic_ESO

Master_Kas wrote: »

Yeah reroll NB when next update is coming very soon, try to roll forever then (or twoshot ppl) and become very disapointed

Just for your information, my pourly stuffed V2 NB is largely above my full gold V14 DK.

trimsic_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

No, they shouldn't have strong damage shields. They have good self heals.
The Dragonknight shield already has a mighty benefit. The Templar shield probably not that strong.
So you want the strongest healing class in the game, to have a strong damage shield as well, even though they already could have strong shields if they would use other shields as well.

Just curious: is this an assumption you made based on some theory-crafting, or is this something that you experienced by yourself?

I experienced the DK shield on the PTS, and I removed it from my bar, despite the fact that I've played with that shield since day 1. This damage shield is really not worth using the magicka it costs, at least in PVP, despite the 30% heal bonus for 7 seconds (heals you initiate). But that's my opinion.

Dracane

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

No, they shouldn't have strong damage shields. They have good self heals.
The Dragonknight shield already has a mighty benefit. The Templar shield probably not that strong.
So you want the strongest healing class in the game, to have a strong damage shield as well, even though they already could have strong shields if they would use other shields as well.

Just curious: is this an assumption you made based on some theory-crafting, or is this something that you experienced by yourself?

I experienced the DK shield on the PTS, and I removed it from my bar, despite the fact that I've played with that shield since day 1. This damage shield is really not worth using the magicka it costs, at least in PVP, despite the 30% heal bonus for 7 seconds (heals you initiate). But that's my opinion.

Both, first it was a theory, then tests confirmed it. If I was insecure, I would add 'I think'
The point in this shield is not that it protects you. It's meant to mitigate and initital hit, yes. But the main reason is the healing buff. You activate it and use heals, also your allies benefit from this. Max Health DKs have less ressources, so this shield is stronger for them. But both, the DK and Templar shields aren't meant to be spammed unlike the Sorcerer shield.

The Sorcerer shield is full protection for a magical caster. You can tell by the lower cost, longer duration and magicka based strenght. This shield has no positive side effects, it's only a protection for a squishy caster. As you can see, there are different concepts behind each class and Zenimax will not change this, because this would be more than ridiculous.

Ryuho

Dracane wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

No, they shouldn't have strong damage shields. They have good self heals.
The Dragonknight shield already has a mighty benefit. The Templar shield probably not that strong.
So you want the strongest healing class in the game, to have a strong damage shield as well, even though they already could have strong shields if they would use other shields as well.

Just curious: is this an assumption you made based on some theory-crafting, or is this something that you experienced by yourself?

I experienced the DK shield on the PTS, and I removed it from my bar, despite the fact that I've played with that shield since day 1. This damage shield is really not worth using the magicka it costs, at least in PVP, despite the 30% heal bonus for 7 seconds (heals you initiate). But that's my opinion.

Both, first it was a theory, then tests confirmed it. If I was insecure, I would add 'I think'
The point in this shield is not that it protects you. It's meant to mitigate and initital hit, yes. But the main reason is the healing buff. You activate it and use heals, also your allies benefit from this. Max Health DKs have less ressources, so this shield is stronger for them. But both, the DK and Templar shields aren't meant to be spammed unlike the Sorcerer shield.

The Sorcerer shield is full protection for a magical caster. You can tell by the lower cost, longer duration and magicka based strenght. This shield has no positive side effects, it's only a protection for a squishy caster. As you can see, there are different concepts behind each class and Zenimax will not change this, because this would be more than ridiculous.

Sadly true.. and here "play as u want" ends

Dracane

Ryuho wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

No, they shouldn't have strong damage shields. They have good self heals.
The Dragonknight shield already has a mighty benefit. The Templar shield probably not that strong.
So you want the strongest healing class in the game, to have a strong damage shield as well, even though they already could have strong shields if they would use other shields as well.

Just curious: is this an assumption you made based on some theory-crafting, or is this something that you experienced by yourself?

I experienced the DK shield on the PTS, and I removed it from my bar, despite the fact that I've played with that shield since day 1. This damage shield is really not worth using the magicka it costs, at least in PVP, despite the 30% heal bonus for 7 seconds (heals you initiate). But that's my opinion.

Both, first it was a theory, then tests confirmed it. If I was insecure, I would add 'I think'
The point in this shield is not that it protects you. It's meant to mitigate and initital hit, yes. But the main reason is the healing buff. You activate it and use heals, also your allies benefit from this. Max Health DKs have less ressources, so this shield is stronger for them. But both, the DK and Templar shields aren't meant to be spammed unlike the Sorcerer shield.

The Sorcerer shield is full protection for a magical caster. You can tell by the lower cost, longer duration and magicka based strenght. This shield has no positive side effects, it's only a protection for a squishy caster. As you can see, there are different concepts behind each class and Zenimax will not change this, because this would be more than ridiculous.

Sadly true.. and here "play as u want" ends

No. If we want 100% play as you want, then we need a game without classes like Skyrim.
But in a game where there are classes, each class needs special things and there must be difference between them, or you can remove classes all together. Not that I would mind that.

This game offers much freedom, but each class has weaknesses and strenghts and different mechanics. I think this is perfectly valid. Even though I think it's unecessary, that they've added classes to this game in the first place. It's just not needed for an Elder Scrolls game. Skilltrees yes, decisions in the way you build your character. But not classes.

Springt-Über-Zwerge

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DK's are totally useless in pvp, has been for a while now. thank's dev team, you talk about not overnerfing stuff but you've done the latter.

Mabe you should use another build if you think dks are useless in pvp. My Dk runs an "I *** all nbs and vamps" build. There are very few ppl on Thornblade (EU) that can actually kill me in a 1v1 although I dont have full gold armor.

My Templar on the other hand is pretty decent too but my oponent just needs to be a good sorc or stam nb and im biting the grass and I doubt that will be better with the the ic going live.

Now to my Nb: I'm very excited for the patch because of the awesome possibilities for smallscale pvp and being able to go for a hybrid build. But I hope there will not be many Dks running around with my build because they will just whip my butt

themdogesbite

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DK's are totally useless in pvp, has been for a while now. thank's dev team, you talk about not overnerfing stuff but you've done the latter.

Mabe you should use another build if you think dks are useless in pvp. My Dk runs an "I *** all nbs and vamps" build. There are very few ppl on Thornblade (EU) that can actually kill me in a 1v1 although I dont have full gold armor.

My Templar on the other hand is pretty decent too but my oponent just needs to be a good sorc or stam nb and im biting the grass and I doubt that will be better with the the ic going live.

Now to my Nb: I'm very excited for the patch because of the awesome possibilities for smallscale pvp and being able to go for a hybrid build. But I hope there will not be many Dks running around with my build because they will just whip my butt

No offense but ive never seen you at any moment in time on TB EU. Playing anything else then DK solo on PTS almost feels like cheating in comparision and DKs definetly need some love.

Saturn

Igneous shield is far from useless, 30% increased healing makes Dragon Blood stronger. Just saying.

Springt-Über-Zwerge

johan.danielsson1994b16_ESO wrote: »

Springt-Über-Zwerge wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

DK's are totally useless in pvp, has been for a while now. thank's dev team, you talk about not overnerfing stuff but you've done the latter.

Mabe you should use another build if you think dks are useless in pvp. My Dk runs an "I *** all nbs and vamps" build. There are very few ppl on Thornblade (EU) that can actually kill me in a 1v1 although I dont have full gold armor.

My Templar on the other hand is pretty decent too but my oponent just needs to be a good sorc or stam nb and im biting the grass and I doubt that will be better with the the ic going live.

Now to my Nb: I'm very excited for the patch because of the awesome possibilities for smallscale pvp and being able to go for a hybrid build. But I hope there will not be many Dks running around with my build because they will just whip my butt

No offense but ive never seen you at any moment in time on TB EU. Playing anything else then DK solo on PTS almost feels like cheating in comparision and DKs definetly need some love.

What fraction are you playing for if I may ask?
Im more the solo player ganking or running with the zerg but not being a part of it because Im playing on a potato that cant really handle zerg v zerg so maybe thats why you didnt see me

Armitas

The primary purpose of igneous shield is to provide a damage shield. The healing bonus came much later and was meant to help support the DK in a healing/buffing role. The increased healing aspect of igneous shield is a secondary advantage of the shield, not it's primary advantage.

While it is true that this specific secondary effect of the morph survives the two nerfs this particular point does nothing to address the other morph, fragmented shield which is triple nerfed due to global damage reduction, health attribute reduction, and global shield reduction, along with it being the weaker shield morph.

tordr86b16_ESO

I've already suggested a change for our obsidian shield morphs, which is scaling the amount with your highest stats (magicka or stamina), and a new one for dedicated tanks that naturally run with a high health pool.

Manoekin

Make all shields % health based, remove the shield reduction. You should be rewarded with a stronger shield for speccing into survivability. You shouldn't be rewarded with a stronger shield because you want to do the most damage possible. If you want to be pure DPS spec, you should have less survivability than someone trying to build that way. I don't care what class you are.

RoyJade

Manoekin wrote: »

Make all shields % health based, remove the shield reduction. You should be rewarded with a stronger shield for speccing into survivability. You shouldn't be rewarded with a stronger shield because you want to do the most damage possible. If you want to be pure DPS spec, you should have less survivability than someone trying to build that way. I don't care what class you are.

Okay, so give a strong heal to sorc.
Honestly, with a good self heal for my sorc, I'll be happy even with a heal-scaling shield. And my tank sorc would be far more powerful.

Manoekin

RoyJade wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Make all shields % health based, remove the shield reduction. You should be rewarded with a stronger shield for speccing into survivability. You shouldn't be rewarded with a stronger shield because you want to do the most damage possible. If you want to be pure DPS spec, you should have less survivability than someone trying to build that way. I don't care what class you are.

Okay, so give a strong heal to sorc.
Honestly, with a good self heal for my sorc, I'll be happy even with a heal-scaling shield. And my tank sorc would be far more powerful.

Okay, so give bolt escape to templar.

This is how it works? How do nightblades live without a good self heal or class shield? You have it so ingrained in your mind that sorcerers should just not take any damage ever it's hilarious to see the stuff you guys come up with to try and not get nerfed.

RoyJade

NB have cloak and some other good abilities. Templar have strong heal and some other stuff. Dk have a full panel of competence for more or less all situations. Sorc have magicka attack and defense.
All class have his specificities, if you said "I don't care what class you are" you will loose these specificities. I agree that in 1.6 shield + BE + big damage combo was a little unfair (so was permablocker -especially Dk- and permadodger -especially NB-), but don't destroy one class because the other classes don't have the same abilities.

Oh, and I play all classes, my sorc is more a pve sorc. And BE is far less effective now than it was on live, I don't think sorc will be able to use it like before anymore.

eliisra

RoyJade wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Make all shields % health based, remove the shield reduction. You should be rewarded with a stronger shield for speccing into survivability. You shouldn't be rewarded with a stronger shield because you want to do the most damage possible. If you want to be pure DPS spec, you should have less survivability than someone trying to build that way. I don't care what class you are.

Okay, so give a strong heal to sorc.
Honestly, with a good self heal for my sorc, I'll be happy even with a heal-scaling shield. And my tank sorc would be far more powerful.

LOL! Put on a *** resto staff and you have loads of self-healing as a magicka sorc.

Now please show me what "staff" my templar can put on to get access to 40% magicka based movement speed, shield that scales of magicka and a spammable teleport to infinity...

cschwingeb14_ESO

The argument that you should have to spec for health to get survivability is extremely flawed. Templar/resto heals, all lifetaps (flame lash, funnel health, etc), rally and Vigor scale with damage stats. And they all provide survivability.

Dracane

eliisra wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Make all shields % health based, remove the shield reduction. You should be rewarded with a stronger shield for speccing into survivability. You shouldn't be rewarded with a stronger shield because you want to do the most damage possible. If you want to be pure DPS spec, you should have less survivability than someone trying to build that way. I don't care what class you are.

Okay, so give a strong heal to sorc.
Honestly, with a good self heal for my sorc, I'll be happy even with a heal-scaling shield. And my tank sorc would be far more powerful.

LOL! Put on a *** resto staff and you have loads of self-healing as a magicka sorc.

Now please show me what "staff" my templar can put on to get access to 40% magicka based movement speed, shield that scales of magicka and a spammable teleport to infinity...

Doesn't exist in the game. Which one are you talking about ?
Must be this ability, that used to exist several months ago. Think it was called bolt escape. Heared it died a few weeks ago after months of sickness. R.I.P

RoyJade

eliisra wrote: »

LOL! Put on a *** resto staff and you have loads of self-healing as a magicka sorc.

Now please show me what "staff" my templar can put on to get access to 40% magicka based movement speed, shield that scales of magicka and a spammable teleport to infinity...

Like I said, no more spammable teleport in 2.1.
Sorc don't have any burst heal, and restro staff don't give you any burst heal instead of healing ward, who need six second to heal. BOL is far more effective.
Sorc don't have any healing debuff, any reflect competence (eclipse is really powerful against magicka burster), any aoe disorient (except one ultimate) against blocker, their execute is far less effective than templar's one, and most of all, stamina and tank sorc ave nearly nothing for them, when templar have strong competences and passives for both styles.

Soris

-Make all shields scale off health
-Seperate dmg and healing by adding a new stat called healing power.

There, I fixed.

Joy_Division

I like how everyone keeps saying that Igneous shield is still good because of the 30% healing increase.

No it's not.

Igneous shield is a specific morph of Obsidian Shield. The actual skill provides NO healing increase as does the other morph, fragmented shield. Your argument goes down the toilet for anyone who did not happen to pick that specific morph.

The purpose of a damage shield is to protect the user, not provide a healing bonus. I realize you sorcerers out there are so used to abusing hardened ward that you just take it for granted that all damage shields give insane protection, but us mere mortal non-sorcs do not have such a benefit. If I wanted healing bonuses, I'd slot a restoration staff or play a Templar. If I am using a damage shield, I want to be like you sorcs and have something that provides reasonable damage mitigation for the amount of resources I am expending.

Why don't we take your hardened ward skill, scale it to health, and then throw in that 30% healing increase and see how you like it.

Dracane

Joy_Division wrote: »

I like how everyone keeps saying that Igneous shield is still good because of the 30% healing increase.

No it's not.

Igneous shield is a specific morph of Obsidian Shield. The actual skill provides NO healing increase as does the other morph, fragmented shield. Your argument goes down the toilet for anyone who did not happen to pick that specific morph.

The purpose of a damage shield is to protect the user, not provide a healing bonus. I realize you sorcerers out there are so used to abusing hardened ward that you just take it for granted that all damage shields give insane protection, but us mere mortal non-sorcs do not have such a benefit. If I wanted healing bonuses, I'd slot a restoration staff or play a Templar. If I am using a damage shield, I want to be like you sorcs and have something that provides reasonable damage mitigation for the amount of resources I am expending.

Why don't we take your hardened ward skill, scale it to health, and then throw in that 30% healing increase and see how you like it.

Cool, give us reflective scales and green dragonblood and we can give it a shot. And the 5% stamina restore earthern heart passive, yea I want that either.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Soris wrote: »

-Make all shields scale off health
-Seperate dmg and healing by adding a new stat called healing power.

There, I fixed.

Ah, completely rewriting combat skill scaling and making healers complete punching bags....I see you've thought this through

Darnathian

Joy_Division wrote: »

I like how everyone keeps saying that Igneous shield is still good because of the 30% healing increase.

No it's not.

Igneous shield is a specific morph of Obsidian Shield. The actual skill provides NO healing increase as does the other morph, fragmented shield. Your argument goes down the toilet for anyone who did not happen to pick that specific morph.

The purpose of a damage shield is to protect the user, not provide a healing bonus. I realize you sorcerers out there are so used to abusing hardened ward that you just take it for granted that all damage shields give insane protection, but us mere mortal non-sorcs do not have such a benefit. If I wanted healing bonuses, I'd slot a restoration staff or play a Templar. If I am using a damage shield, I want to be like you sorcs and have something that provides reasonable damage mitigation for the amount of resources I am expending.

Why don't we take your hardened ward skill, scale it to health, and then throw in that 30% healing increase and see how you like it.

They don't care. The want to keep their op ness. Do us all a favor. Stop being hypocritical and telling us how to use our class. Igneous shield is a joke now. We get it. You don't want balance. You want to continue to wreck people. They are not willing to nerf thier OP shield, hardened ward, and fully support more nerfs to dk's.

Darnathian

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I like how everyone keeps saying that Igneous shield is still good because of the 30% healing increase.

No it's not.

Igneous shield is a specific morph of Obsidian Shield. The actual skill provides NO healing increase as does the other morph, fragmented shield. Your argument goes down the toilet for anyone who did not happen to pick that specific morph.

The purpose of a damage shield is to protect the user, not provide a healing bonus. I realize you sorcerers out there are so used to abusing hardened ward that you just take it for granted that all damage shields give insane protection, but us mere mortal non-sorcs do not have such a benefit. If I wanted healing bonuses, I'd slot a restoration staff or play a Templar. If I am using a damage shield, I want to be like you sorcs and have something that provides reasonable damage mitigation for the amount of resources I am expending.

Why don't we take your hardened ward skill, scale it to health, and then throw in that 30% healing increase and see how you like it.

Cool, give us reflective scales and green dragonblood and we can give it a shot. And the 5% stamina restore earthern heart passive, yea I want that either.

Deal

Manoekin

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

The argument that you should have to spec for health to get survivability is extremely flawed. Templar/resto heals, all lifetaps (flame lash, funnel health, etc), rally and Vigor scale with damage stats. And they all provide survivability.

I can't believe this was ever said in any context. You should not have to spec into the stat that determines how much damage you can take before you die in order to increase your survivability...

Really? Flame lash, funnel health, rally are all bonuses attached to a skill, no major heals. Temp and resto heals do what they are supposed(heal?) It moves the healthbar which makes it completely different from a shield. Vigor follows that same idea, just a bone thrown to stamina specs.

What's extremely flawed is the most damaging spec also being the most survivable because the path for each share the same stat. That is what you call a flaw. It's the opposite of game balance.

Joy_Division

Dracane wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I like how everyone keeps saying that Igneous shield is still good because of the 30% healing increase.

No it's not.

Igneous shield is a specific morph of Obsidian Shield. The actual skill provides NO healing increase as does the other morph, fragmented shield. Your argument goes down the toilet for anyone who did not happen to pick that specific morph.

The purpose of a damage shield is to protect the user, not provide a healing bonus. I realize you sorcerers out there are so used to abusing hardened ward that you just take it for granted that all damage shields give insane protection, but us mere mortal non-sorcs do not have such a benefit. If I wanted healing bonuses, I'd slot a restoration staff or play a Templar. If I am using a damage shield, I want to be like you sorcs and have something that provides reasonable damage mitigation for the amount of resources I am expending.

Why don't we take your hardened ward skill, scale it to health, and then throw in that 30% healing increase and see how you like it.

Cool, give us reflective scales and green dragonblood and we can give it a shot. And the 5% stamina restore earthern heart passive, yea I want that either.

Dude, just roll a DK if you think all their abilities are good.

RoyJade

I have a DK, and actually in 1.6 these abilities are good IMO. I haven't test in 1.7 for the moment.

I think the biggest problem with obsidian shield is the way damage shield actually work. The main purpose of the shield is to protect yourself and your allies, so it's the reason why the shield is weak and the reason why it's scale on life (it's a tank work to protect his comrades). But the shield, especially on friends is so weak that he help them to take more unmitiged damage instead of less mitiged damage.

Armitas

RoyJade wrote: »

I have a DK, and actually in 1.6 these abilities are good IMO. I haven't test in 1.7 for the moment.

Shhhh guys, he hasn't tested DK in 1.7. Lets just trade him GDB while he is still willing to trade for it.

Sir, you have yourself a deal, no refunds, GDB is yours pending 1.7.