Why am I getting completely wrecked in PVP?

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

No. I won't. Not for you. Not for either of you. Because you're worth it. I'm not going to set up recording software on my system just for you. You are far too unimportant to me. I'm not going to inconvenience myself on your behalf. Certainly not after the tone you've taken.

You don't believe me. Go back to crying about how you'll never be competitive because CP are the dividing line between your inability to play, and your deep seated desire to blame anyone but yourself for your failures.

So you're denying a fact. You don't think that CP gives you an advantage in PVP? Do you 100% disagree with this statement of fact?

Do you agree that 2+2 = 4? Just wondering.

sadownik

starkerealm wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nah. Can't be bothered.

Tell you what. You want an experiment? Grab a minion, and go into the wayrest sewers, grind yourself to 300 CP, then go back into Cyrodiil, and get wrecked again by that same mob of 6 experienced PvPers.

Can you just say that CP gives you an advantage over other players in PVP ? Can you just acknowledge that fact please?

It doesn't give enough of an advantage to matter.

I mean, that's the problem here, and what you can't seem to get through your skull.

Yes, these are stat ups. No, they're not big enough to matter.

What will, legitimately mess you up, are skills. Are broken synergies. Are macros. There's some ugly stuff that goes on in PvP which can make it distinctly unfun. But, trying to lay that at the feet of the CP system is a mistake, because it's advantages aren't really that big.

CP is not the difference between someone using camo hunter + lethal arrow + light attack + poison shot. CP affects it, but you were dead before the lethal arrow connected.

The armor penetration star is a joke in comparison to dual sharpened maces.

CP will not save you. It will not change anything. And it isn't what got you killed in the first place. It was, you ran afoul of players who knew what they were doing.

Then according yo you a golden set gear doesnt give you the advatage right? Its marginal to the point that you could fight naked and still win because of skillz.

You gave an example of uppercut dealing 10% more dmg and thats nothing to you? If you take into account you also have more resoruces the advantage is getting even bigger.

No its not i win button and no its not godmode (at least not in 0 - 1000 range) but the advantage is clear and substantial which was proven in many other threads.

starkerealm

Valn wrote: »

So you're denying a fact.

No. I'm telling you. 0.1% is less than 2%. Which, you know, seems to be causing some confusion for you.

TequilaFire

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nah. Can't be bothered.

Tell you what. You want an experiment? Grab a minion, and go into the wayrest sewers, grind yourself to 300 CP, then go back into Cyrodiil, and get wrecked again by that same mob of 6 experienced PvPers.

Can you just say that CP gives you an advantage over other players in PVP ? Can you just acknowledge that fact please?

No CP gives you one other tool just like food, armor sets skill points and leveling.
It is not the only factor, many choices you make in your build determine how effective it is.
Any one item in itself does not make you uber, as a matter of fact any player can be reked on any given day.

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

It doesn't give enough of an advantage to matter.

I mean, that's the problem here, and what you can't seem to get through your skull.

Yes, these are stat ups. No, they're not big enough to matter.

What will, legitimately mess you up, are skills. Are broken synergies. Are macros. There's some ugly stuff that goes on in PvP which can make it distinctly unfun. But, trying to lay that at the feet of the CP system is a mistake, because it's advantages aren't really that big.

CP is not the difference between someone using camo hunter + lethal arrow + light attack + poison shot. CP affects it, but you were dead before the lethal arrow connected.

The armor penetration star is a joke in comparison to dual sharpened maces.

CP will not save you. It will not change anything. And it isn't what got you killed in the first place. It was, you ran afoul of players who knew what they were doing.

You are 100% deluded. I'm sorry but you are. And you contradict yourself.

You say it doesn't give enough of an advantage. Therefore you agree that it's an advantage, no matter how small or big.

And you say CP will not save you. But it MAY save you...that's what you seem to be so confused about. CP may be the thing that gets you killed, and it may be other things such as messing up skills or synergies.

The frequency of whether CP messes you up is irrelevant.

The fact here is that CP does give you an advantage.

starkerealm

sadownik wrote: »

Then according yo you a golden set gear doesnt give you the advatage right?

No, golden gear is a pretty significant advantage. I'd have to check the numbers, but off the top of my head it's something like a 3% up on your stats. And that's just off the purple. The difference between someone in full greens, and someone in full gold is substantial.

Basically, each color of gear reflects a +2 level modifier (Or a +1 Vet rank) modifier. There's also a blind +2/+V1 modifier for crafted gear. So that means someone who's V14 in drop greens will basically have V15 (white) gear. While someone in crafted V14 golds will have basically... what would be V19 (white) gear. That is a hefty jump.

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Then according yo you a golden set gear doesnt give you the advatage right?

No, golden gear is a pretty significant advantage. I'd have to check the numbers, but off the top of my head it's something like a 3% up on your stats. And that's just off the purple. The difference between someone in full greens, and someone in full gold is substantial.

Basically, each color of gear reflects a +2 level modifier (Or a +1 Vet rank) modifier. There's also a blind +2/+V1 modifier for crafted gear. So that means someone who's V14 in drop greens will basically have V15 (white) gear. While someone in crafted V14 golds will have basically... what would be V19 (white) gear. That is a hefty jump.

So someone with say...5% damage bonus, an extra 10% crit bonus from CP has an advantage over someone without those things? Do you agree with this?

starkerealm

TequilaFire wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nah. Can't be bothered.

Tell you what. You want an experiment? Grab a minion, and go into the wayrest sewers, grind yourself to 300 CP, then go back into Cyrodiil, and get wrecked again by that same mob of 6 experienced PvPers.

Can you just say that CP gives you an advantage over other players in PVP ? Can you just acknowledge that fact please?

No CP gives you one other tool just like food, armor sets skill points and leveling.
It is not the only factor, many choices you make in your build determine how effective it is.
Any one item in itself does not make you uber, as a matter of fact any player can be reked on any given day.

Man, purple food. If I deserve any flak, it's for being able to craft eight hours worth of level 40 purple food before going into Cyrodiil.

markt84

Like I said, this forum is full of cp grinders, they will deny the importance of them till the end, while defending them so vigorously, then go buy xp scrolls and head to their favorite grinding spot to go grind to get more of them.....but they don't matter

TequilaFire

Yes it is all about learning to use the tools the game gives you, then hope the guy you are fighting doesn't have 10 buddies come out of stealth to help him! lmao

starkerealm

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

Then according yo you a golden set gear doesnt give you the advatage right?

No, golden gear is a pretty significant advantage. I'd have to check the numbers, but off the top of my head it's something like a 3% up on your stats. And that's just off the purple. The difference between someone in full greens, and someone in full gold is substantial.

Basically, each color of gear reflects a +2 level modifier (Or a +1 Vet rank) modifier. There's also a blind +2/+V1 modifier for crafted gear. So that means someone who's V14 in drop greens will basically have V15 (white) gear. While someone in crafted V14 golds will have basically... what would be V19 (white) gear. That is a hefty jump.

So someone with say...5% damage bonus, an extra 10% crit bonus from CP has an advantage over someone without those things? Do you agree with this?

Let's see, there's no way to get +10% crit from CP... so, maybe you should go back and look at the stars again? Just a thought.

But, off hand, Hunding's Rage already gives better than 5% to weapon damage. Not sure about the crit rate, but I think it's 14% or so. 5pc obviously. But, then it's something like +15% weapon damage. Technically, it's just a flat value, 500 something at V14 gold.

So, at this point, your CP can apply on top of that, but they're already being overshadowed by the level of your gear, having the right set, having active food buffs... you starting to sense a pattern?

After everything else, you can add CP on top of that. But, it's freaking insignificant in comparison to the power of a coherent build.

starkerealm

markt84 wrote: »

Like I said, this forum is full of cp grinders, they will deny the importance of them till the end, while defending them so vigorously, then go buy xp scrolls and head to their favorite grinding spot to go grind to get more of them.....but they don't matter

Yeah, no. Gear, provisioning, tripots, skill allocation, build. All of that's irrelevant. That +10% health from being an Imperial? Yeah, that's worthless compared to the +.01% health you get for each warrior point... right.

TequilaFire

By the way I only have a little over 200 CP 70 given by ZOS, so I must be a lousy grinder. lol

starkerealm

TequilaFire wrote: »

By the way I only have a little over 200 CP, so I must be a lousy grinder. lol

You've got more than twice what I've got. But clearly, I must be so overpowered from my 100, that I can down a v14 who's been ganking their ways up the Alliance ranks.

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

Let's see, there's no way to get +10% crit from CP... so, maybe you should go back and look at the stars again? Just a thought.

But, off hand, Hunding's Rage already gives better than 5% to weapon damage. Not sure about the crit rate, but I think it's 14% or so. 5pc obviously. But, then it's something like +15% weapon damage. Technically, it's just a flat value, 500 something at V14 gold.

So, at this point, your CP can apply on top of that, but they're already being overshadowed by the level of your gear, having the right set, having active food buffs... you starting to sense a pattern?

After everything else, you can add CP on top of that. But, it's freaking insignificant in comparison to the power of a coherent build.

Oh, my apologies, I didn't mean +10% crit.

I actually meant the +12% crit you get when you point points into Spell Precision. Looks like you're the one who needs to learn the facts.

But again, these crafted set bonuses are irrelevant, because you can get them straight away, by crating them yourself or getting it from another players.

So at this point, your CP applies on top of that, which means CP gives you an advantage, whether it's a big advantage, or a small advantage, it's an advantage none the less.

markt84

starkerealm wrote: »

markt84 wrote: »

Like I said, this forum is full of cp grinders, they will deny the importance of them till the end, while defending them so vigorously, then go buy xp scrolls and head to their favorite grinding spot to go grind to get more of them.....but they don't matter

Yeah, no. Gear, provisioning, tripots, skill allocation, build. All of that's irrelevant. That +10% health from being an Imperial? Yeah, that's worthless compared to the +.01% health you get for each warrior point... right.

You got me there because 1 CP is what makes the difference. Not the what 13-20% increase in damage output and damage resistance, and the increased resources and the increased resource generation, with a boost in crit, and that all increases on top of the yellow gear you keep bringing up.

You comment just shows you just refuse to see they give you a HUGE boost. That's why you had to load your non-vet up with them. I'm done, I'm home now and have a life. And you have hours of grinding to get to, so you can get more of those CPs that don't matter

starkerealm

Valn wrote: »

But again, these crafted set bonuses are irrelevant, because you can get them straight away, by crating them yourself or getting it from another players.

Really.

So, everyone has access to those sets you say? Even the newbies, who don't have any research done, and don't even know they exist.

It's almost like it's a system that's open to anyone who's taken the time to find a way to access it, and provides a substantial statistical advantage. But that's irrelevant. Because it's not something you feel excluded from.

Interesting.

So, it's okay to have a critical statistical advantage over someone that far outstrips what you can get from CP. But only because you have access to it.

Okay.

I think I understand you just fine, now.

Valn wrote: »

So at this point, your CP applies on top of that, which means CP gives you an advantage, whether it's a big advantage, or a small advantage, it's an advantage none the less.

In comparison to sets? CP is dwarfed.

k2blader

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

By the way I only have a little over 200 CP, so I must be a lousy grinder. lol

You've got more than twice what I've got. But clearly, I must be so overpowered from my 100, that I can down a v14 who's been ganking their ways up the Alliance ranks.

Lol, we have about the same. So if we were to meet each other in PvP it would come down to skill or luck. However, if you were to meet someone with fewer CPs you would have an advantage.

starkerealm

markt84 wrote: »

You got me there because 1 CP is what makes the difference. Not the what 13-20% increase in damage output and damage resistance, and the increased resources and the increased resource generation, with a boost in crit, and that all increases on top of the yellow gear you keep bringing up.

You comment just shows you just refuse to see they give you a HUGE boost. That's why you had to load your non-vet up with them. I'm done, I'm home now and have a life. And you have hours of grinding to get to, so you can get more of those CPs that don't matter

To an extent, you need to take my word here. But that is far more than I have access to. If I wanted to get all of the "huge" boosts you're describing, I'd water my buffs down to about 1.6% to 2.3%. Now, obviously I don't. So I'm riding at around 4% and in some cases 5% boosts. But, it's not to everything, simply because I don't have the points to spare. And, even at 300 CP, that would give me the range of boosts you're thinking of, but they'd still be dwarfed by basic class passives.

SirAndy

starkerealm wrote: »

Nah. Can't be bothered

No surprise here.

Let me guess, you also tell people macros don't work, animation canceling is good for the game and what other people call "exploits" is really just an opportunity for you to show off your hard earned "skills" ...

starkerealm

k2blader wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

By the way I only have a little over 200 CP, so I must be a lousy grinder. lol

You've got more than twice what I've got. But clearly, I must be so overpowered from my 100, that I can down a v14 who's been ganking their ways up the Alliance ranks.

Lol, we have about the same. So if we were to meet each other in PvP it would come down to skill or luck. However, if you were to meet someone with fewer CPs you would have an advantage.

Yeah, but that advantage wouldn't come from CP. It would be because I'm freakin' weird and it confuses the hell out of people looking for cookie cutters.

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

Really.

So, everyone has access to those sets you say? Even the newbies, who don't have any research done, and don't even know they exist.

Well yes, everyone has access to all the sets, even newbies do. At V14 I'm pretty sure most people have an awareness of the different sets in game. If not, then they can google it.

It's almost like it's a system that's open to anyone who's taken the time to find a way to access it, and provides a substantial statistical advantage. But that's irrelevant. Because it's not something you feel excluded from.

Interesting.

So, it's okay to have a critical statistical advantage over someone that far outstrips what you can get from CP. But only because you have access to it.

Okay.

I think I understand you just fine, now.

I'm sorry...."taken the time to find a way to access it" ..you mean like, 30 seconds of googling, 30 seconds of asking in chat for a crafter to make the set for you? Compare that to the hours and hours of grinding CP....

In comparison to sets? CP is dwarfed.

Again, irrelevant. An advantage is an advantage no matter how big or small.

starkerealm

SirAndy wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Nah. Can't be bothered

No surprise here.

Let me guess, you also tell people macros don't work, animation canceling is good for the game and what other people call "exploits" is really just an opportunity for you to show off your hard earned "skills" ...

No, I've talked about the mess of macros in this thread. To say nothing of the garbage with cuing attacks, or the ever so creative devouring talon swarm. But, that's actually a different conversation.

Andy, look. You're smarter than this. Or at least, you should be. You know as well as I do, CP is not that potent. It's a nice bit of icing on a solid build, but it's not going to confer godlike power upon people who've never run up against actual PvPers before.

k2blader

starkerealm wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

By the way I only have a little over 200 CP, so I must be a lousy grinder. lol

You've got more than twice what I've got. But clearly, I must be so overpowered from my 100, that I can down a v14 who's been ganking their ways up the Alliance ranks.

Lol, we have about the same. So if we were to meet each other in PvP it would come down to skill or luck. However, if you were to meet someone with fewer CPs you would have an advantage.

Yeah, but that advantage wouldn't come from CP. It would be because I'm freakin' weird and it confuses the hell out of people looking for cookie cutters.

Eh, from your own posts, people can clearly see you're being pretty dishonest and making no sense. Not worth any more time from me. :-)

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

No, I've talked about the mess of macros in this thread. To say nothing of the garbage with cuing attacks, or the ever so creative devouring talon swarm. But, that's actually a different conversation.

Andy, look. You're smarter than this. Or at least, you should be. You know as well as I do, CP is not that potent. It's a nice bit of icing on a solid build, but it's not going to confer godlike power upon people who've never run up against actual PvPers before.

But CP gives you an advantage yes?

starkerealm

Valn wrote: »

Well yes, everyone has access to all the sets, even newbies do. At V14 I'm pretty sure most people have an awareness of the different sets in game. If not, then they can google it.

Not really. You're assuming a lot. First of all that they can reliably find a crafter quickly. That's not a guarantee. To say nothing of the people I see who are begging for people to craft them parts of drop sets. It doesn't end well, but you knew that already.

That they have the resources to obtain those sets. The resources to upgrade those sets. The ability to know which sets to go after, and that's not as simple as just googling it, because of conflicting opinions all over the place about what's best.

No, your set is a major part of your build. And like it or not, it's something a lot of players don't really have access to.

But, hey, you googled it, learned what was out there, took the time to access it. So it's cool. Right. No, I understand perfectly.

starkerealm

k2blader wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

k2blader wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

By the way I only have a little over 200 CP, so I must be a lousy grinder. lol

You've got more than twice what I've got. But clearly, I must be so overpowered from my 100, that I can down a v14 who's been ganking their ways up the Alliance ranks.

Lol, we have about the same. So if we were to meet each other in PvP it would come down to skill or luck. However, if you were to meet someone with fewer CPs you would have an advantage.

Yeah, but that advantage wouldn't come from CP. It would be because I'm freakin' weird and it confuses the hell out of people looking for cookie cutters.

Eh, from your own posts, people can clearly see you're being pretty dishonest and making no sense. Not worth any more time from me. :-)

I'm not the one sitting in a corner crying and lying to myself about how all those mean VR14s secretly had 3660 CP, and didn't beat me for fairs. So, yeah, no, of the two, that's a little more honest.

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

Not really. You're assuming a lot. First of all that they can reliably find a crafter quickly. That's not a guarantee. To say nothing of the people I see who are begging for people to craft them parts of drop sets. It doesn't end well, but you knew that already.

That they have the resources to obtain those sets. The resources to upgrade those sets. The ability to know which sets to go after, and that's not as simple as just googling it, because of conflicting opinions all over the place about what's best.

No, your set is a major part of your build. And like it or not, it's something a lot of players don't really have access to.

But, hey, you googled it, learned what was out there, took the time to access it. So it's cool. Right. No, I understand perfectly.

You're assuming that people can't find a crafter quickly. I'm pretty sure that most of the gear in this game is based around crafting, so there will be a lot of crafters out there.....no it's not a guarantee that you will instantly find someone who will craft something for you, but it wont take hours and hours and days and days for them to have an advantage over someone who doesn't wear a set bonus.

starkerealm

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

No, I've talked about the mess of macros in this thread. To say nothing of the garbage with cuing attacks, or the ever so creative devouring talon swarm. But, that's actually a different conversation.

Andy, look. You're smarter than this. Or at least, you should be. You know as well as I do, CP is not that potent. It's a nice bit of icing on a solid build, but it's not going to confer godlike power upon people who've never run up against actual PvPers before.

But CP gives you an advantage yes?

It is literally the least significant part of your build.

Valn

starkerealm wrote: »

Valn wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

No, I've talked about the mess of macros in this thread. To say nothing of the garbage with cuing attacks, or the ever so creative devouring talon swarm. But, that's actually a different conversation.

Andy, look. You're smarter than this. Or at least, you should be. You know as well as I do, CP is not that potent. It's a nice bit of icing on a solid build, but it's not going to confer godlike power upon people who've never run up against actual PvPers before.

But CP gives you an advantage yes?

It is literally the least significant part of your build.

Does CP give you an advantage or not? Does 12% extra spell crit give you an advantage over someone without the extra 12% spell crit?