Why am I getting completely wrecked in PVP?

Sallington

There's both an armor pen and a spell pen exploit that can bypass all armor and spell resist. I'm assuming you ran into some people using one of those.

I hate to even call them exploits, because it's just another bug that snuck under ZOS radar.

amgame308_ESO

If all the classes are unbalanced would that not balance them out?

toca79

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

If all the classes are unbalanced would that not balance them out?

Eh eh saldy it's not like that, some classes are unbalanced because are too strong, others are unbalanced cause too weak,
so all classes are unbalanced

QuebraRegra

CheeseDivinity wrote: »

Congrats, you won the INTERNET today!

Brace yerself for the CP backlash.

#truthhurts

Preyfar

Lenikus wrote: »

It's an exploit thing. you'll notice most people are dualwielding maces, those maces have the sharpened trait.
They are actually ignoring over 30k of physical resistance, so all your yellow gear will do nothing if you don't have more than 50k armor... they'll fix this next update, that's why the PTS has so many people complaining about giving 'less damage'

You'll notice pretty much anyone who's PVPing is using the Sharpened trait. Most of the weapons traits are kind... well, bad. I' wager it's either Sharpened or Precise for almost everyone out there doing PVP.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

I recently changed from an all health heavy armor build to an all magic light armor build. I also currently have 44 champion points. Here are the largest changes ...

1) I die about 10% more often. Thought it would be much larger than that.
2) The base damage (after food) on radiant oppression is now over 10K. It used to be about 5k. I believe that with with inner light and entropy slotted under perfect circumstances I can hit for roughly 50K damage. I've been melting everything. For what it's worth my magic is about 27K at the moment. I'm VR5.
3) I still believe that skill matters but there are probably 5 times the number of VR14s on console than a month ago. Many of the bad players are now a pain to deal with. I believe this has more to do with the changing PVP climate on consoles than CPs.
4) In regards to the person who complained about losing a 24 to 6 fight ... one Templar spamming practiced incantation can even the odds very quickly. Whenever you see one army versus another keep an eye on the Templars. One well timed heal burst often helps move an entire army up 40 feet to engulf the other side. If you ever wonder what happened to suddenly let you plow through a bunch of enemies rest assured it's because a Templar did something 5 feet behind you.

Rinmaethodain

Because, despite what ZOS tries to force upon all players, the truth is PVP is NOT for everyone. The battle leveling stuff is there to soap our eyes.

ZOS apparently tries to force upon us some dream of theirs, to make everyone do PVP no matter if they like or not. They plan the idea in players head that "PVP is for everyone " (the lvl10 entrance) and suddenly a lvl10 like that goes to PVP.
And then, depending how clear is his judgement and how clearly he thinks he will either accept the truth that its normal that there will be never equality in PVP which is natural way of things, or he will run to forums and join the nerf/whine squad bringing up all ridicolous ideas of "balances" and "fixes" to anything they will imagine in order to bring the utopia of "balanced and fair PVP for every single player, no matter his lvl". Of course by doing so, they will completly forgot that there is a game beside PVP, because all they want to do is "kill stuff".

SirAndy

starkerealm wrote: »

Depending on circumstances, you could be getting macroed. If your health just drops from full to nothing, that's... let's call it suspect mechanic interactions.

Or when you get hit with a single 20k+ Take Flight. PvP is soooo much fun right now ...

Rinmaethodain

Valn wrote: »

I haven't played for a while, I used to be so good in PVP with my DK tank, I have full yellow armor and weapon, I have the tankiest tank gear you could get, and still I get wrecked even by one person in PVP....wtf is going on?

Has there been an update where you get PVP gear? People seem so much more powerful now

It might be because tanks are the class that ZOS hates most. They are annoying ZOS puppies "DPS builds". Tanks are class that dares to stand still after DPS initial burst macroed 1 button insta kill. So its newest ZOS agenda to nerf everything that is not DPS.

starkerealm

toca79 wrote: »

Champion points made it all worse, giving veteran players an ulterior edge over us newbies, 25% mitigation and 25% damage...

Okay, let me stop you right there, because it's instantly apparent you don't know what you're talking about.

There is no flat +25% mitigation. It's not in the game. You can take up to 25% mitigation against a single damage type. (Magic, Elemental, Disease/Poison, DoTs, ect), but you can't simply take a flat +25% mitigation. The passives that boost your armor only boost your armor rating, not your damage mitigation with that armor type. So it's a lot less than it looks, and on top of that, those three cap at 13%, not 25%. There is a +25% spell resist, but as with the physical resist boosters, it actually increases the stat, which means the mitigation is much lower than it looks.

Second, no competent CP spec will have those modifiers. Because, as CP exists right now, it's much more efficient to take a bunch of minor boosts, than trying to pump all your points into one single star. Someone with 300 CP could get +25% elemental resist... which you could bypass by just punching them in the face, or poisoning them, or applying bleed. OR They could take that and get roughly 5% in all of those resists. If you say you're seeing someone who resists 8.5% of all your damage... that's the CP. Not some mythical 3600 CP monster out there that doesn't exist yet.

Damage is the same way. Though, you can double the percentages. You can expect to see someone with 300CP hitting you for about 10% more damage. Maybe ~18%. They'll stack their spell or physical damage booster along with the appropriate weapon booster, and hope for the best.

What can mess you up is the +12% weapon and spell crit chance boosts. But those are flat. You either have one or you don't. And because of how the game works, only one will apply at a time. They can lead to some hilarious crit chances. But, as with a lot of people who've read about the champion system, but not actually used it, you're ascribing godlike power to it that just isn't there.

On the whole, the Champion System is non-trivial, but it isn't a huge power gap. What will mess you up, is you're playing against people who've spent enough time with the game to have generated their absurd champion ranks. And that is worth far more than +15% damage.

starkerealm

toca79 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

If all the classes are unbalanced would that not balance them out?

Eh eh saldy it's not like that, some classes are unbalanced because are too strong, others are unbalanced cause too weak,
so all classes are unbalanced

In the right hands, all four classes are absurdly powerful. @Toca79 does not have the right hands.

I mean, I'm joking, but it's true. DKs are absurdly powerful... and kinda boring. Sorcerers have a a metric shank ton of different paths to hilarious levels of power. Nightblades are an unexpected murder party and you're all invited. Templars are the gods of not dying.

Yeah, no, they're balanced against each other. The problem is, they all play differently, so it's easy to look at them from the outside and pawn one off as worthless when that just isn't the case.

Unless, he's talking about some other class that didn't make it into the game.

Asherons_Call

I think it's spelled "Rekt"

toca79

starkerealm wrote: »

toca79 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

If all the classes are unbalanced would that not balance them out?

Eh eh saldy it's not like that, some classes are unbalanced because are too strong, others are unbalanced cause too weak,
so all classes are unbalanced

In the right hands, all four classes are absurdly powerful. @Toca79 does not have the right hands.

I mean, I'm joking, but it's true. DKs are absurdly powerful... and kinda boring. Sorcerers have a a metric shank ton of different paths to hilarious levels of power. Nightblades are an unexpected murder party and you're all invited. Templars are the gods of not dying.

Yeah, no, they're balanced against each other. The problem is, they all play differently, so it's easy to look at them from the outside and pawn one off as worthless when that just isn't the case.

Unless, he's talking about some other class that didn't make it into the game.

I am bad at pvp, never stated the opposite and of course the way you play the character also is super important, what I was trying to say is that i find it ridiculous that a 6vs24 can end with the 24 defeated numerous times.
That said I'm just one player, if the majority of us is happy with the current system I'll adapt even if my current build is useless, I'll just stop doing pvp, so all the uber champions of pvp can play among themselves in cyrodiil without being bothered by us noobies
A well designed game should give all players at least a chance of winning a fight and right now it's not like that, even having the same build and skill as your enemy, cps will make the difference.
I would really like to see a player with like 50 cp against a player with 300cp how would fare.

reften

Caps have been removed. People get as much weapon dam or spell dam as possible and can drop players pretty fast.

Damage is being nerfed though so should be better.

toca79

starkerealm wrote: »

toca79 wrote: »

Champion points made it all worse, giving veteran players an ulterior edge over us newbies, 25% mitigation and 25% damage...

Okay, let me stop you right there, because it's instantly apparent you don't know what you're talking about.

There is no flat +25% mitigation. It's not in the game. You can take up to 25% mitigation against a single damage type. (Magic, Elemental, Disease/Poison, DoTs, ect), but you can't simply take a flat +25% mitigation. The passives that boost your armor only boost your armor rating, not your damage mitigation with that armor type. So it's a lot less than it looks, and on top of that, those three cap at 13%, not 25%. There is a +25% spell resist, but as with the physical resist boosters, it actually increases the stat, which means the mitigation is much lower than it looks.

Second, no competent CP spec will have those modifiers. Because, as CP exists right now, it's much more efficient to take a bunch of minor boosts, than trying to pump all your points into one single star. Someone with 300 CP could get +25% elemental resist... which you could bypass by just punching them in the face, or poisoning them, or applying bleed. OR They could take that and get roughly 5% in all of those resists. If you say you're seeing someone who resists 8.5% of all your damage... that's the CP. Not some mythical 3600 CP monster out there that doesn't exist yet.

Damage is the same way. Though, you can double the percentages. You can expect to see someone with 300CP hitting you for about 10% more damage. Maybe ~18%. They'll stack their spell or physical damage booster along with the appropriate weapon booster, and hope for the best.

What can mess you up is the +12% weapon and spell crit chance boosts. But those are flat. You either have one or you don't. And because of how the game works, only one will apply at a time. They can lead to some hilarious crit chances. But, as with a lot of people who've read about the champion system, but not actually used it, you're ascribing godlike power to it that just isn't there.

On the whole, the Champion System is non-trivial, but it isn't a huge power gap. What will mess you up, is you're playing against people who've spent enough time with the game to have generated their absurd champion ranks. And that is worth far more than +15% damage.

I know how cp should be spent in fact that's what I've done, about the 25% flat mitigation I used the wrong words an you're right, still I think that makes a pretty big difference especially when the cp difference among the two players is important.
A player with 50 cp total does not have the 12% increase in critical and have few points in resistances if you match him with a 200cp player he'll be almost instakilled.
Obviously the guys we were fighting had a huge amount of cps because in a 24 person raid we were dealing all kinds of damages and still they were not dying.
Again we probably were all nooobs still it ridiculous that we were defeated, the sheer amount of damage we were putting put should have destroyed them.
That said I'm not really that much interested in pvp so go have fun among you super players, I'll humbly stick to pve as to avoid my faction to actually lose the war

starkerealm

toca79 wrote: »

I am bad at pvp, never stated the opposite and of course the way you play the character also is super important, what I was trying to say is that i find it ridiculous that a 6vs24 can end with the 24 defeated numerous times.

The problem is that player coordination, at least in ESO, has an exponential effect on combat effectiveness. Six well coordinated players can easily steamroll a much larger uncoordinated force.

There are ways to deal with them, and if you'd been in a coordinated team of 24, who knew what you were doing, and how to get the most out of each other? You would have brought their mini-zerg to a grinding, crunching, halt.

At this point, you've got a choice. If you want to PvP, you should go back in, and try to learn. Experiment, see what works, what doesn't. Find people who spend most of their time in there. Talk to them, learn from them.

You know, get better at it.

It's unreasonable to assume you can come into anything raw and immediately be as good, or better, than people who've been doing that for over a year. You can learn, or you can abandon ship. The choice is yours. But it's not the CP that's doing you in. That's a smokescreen you're making for yourself.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

toca79 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

toca79 wrote: »

amgame308_ESO wrote: »

If all the classes are unbalanced would that not balance them out?

Eh eh saldy it's not like that, some classes are unbalanced because are too strong, others are unbalanced cause too weak,
so all classes are unbalanced

In the right hands, all four classes are absurdly powerful. @Toca79 does not have the right hands.

I mean, I'm joking, but it's true. DKs are absurdly powerful... and kinda boring. Sorcerers have a a metric shank ton of different paths to hilarious levels of power. Nightblades are an unexpected murder party and you're all invited. Templars are the gods of not dying.

Yeah, no, they're balanced against each other. The problem is, they all play differently, so it's easy to look at them from the outside and pawn one off as worthless when that just isn't the case.

Unless, he's talking about some other class that didn't make it into the game.

I am bad at pvp, never stated the opposite and of course the way you play the character also is super important, what I was trying to say is that i find it ridiculous that a 6vs24 can end with the 24 defeated numerous times.
That said I'm just one player, if the majority of us is happy with the current system I'll adapt even if my current build is useless, I'll just stop doing pvp, so all the uber champions of pvp can play among themselves in cyrodiil without being bothered by us noobies
A well designed game should give all players at least a chance of winning a fight and right now it's not like that, even having the same build and skill as your enemy, cps will make the difference.
I would really like to see a player with like 50 cp against a player with 300cp how would fare.

While there is no way for me to know how many CPs my opponents have I've killed plenty of VR14s with my VR5 Templar that has 44 CP. Also, I explained the answer to your 6 vs 24 question above. It's the Templars. 1 good one will swing a 50 person battle by themself but no one usually notices it. Healers are like an offensive line. You only notice them when they screw up. I'm specifically saying Templars though because practiced incantation may be the most underutilized spell in the whole game. My Templar heals everyone in my area over 3000 points a second for 6 seconds. You can easily swing a battle in those 6 seconds.

starkerealm

toca79 wrote: »

Obviously the guys we were fighting had a huge amount of cps because in a 24 person raid we were dealing all kinds of damages and still they were not dying.

While it's quite possible that they did, there's nothing obvious about it.

You're sitting there making up a reason why you lost. And you've picked a scapegoat that looks credible to you, so you can shift the blame off.

You're saying, "well, obviously, I lost because they had godlike powers." No, you lost because you were new to Cyrodiil, and hadn't actually fought live opponents before. And you ran into people who normally play against live opponents, and knew what to do to wreck you. And they did.

Their CP isn't what let them win. Their experience was the deciding factor.

toca79 wrote: »

Again we probably were all nooobs still it ridiculous that we were defeated, the sheer amount of damage we were putting put should have destroyed them.

War doesn't work like that. Sheer numbers does not guarantee success. You can look at any number of examples in history, real world examples.

ESO is anything but realistic, but it does get this detail right. A small coordinated force that knows what they're doing can easily overwhelm and obliterate a larger uncoordinated force that is unready for combat.

They knew what they were doing. You didn't. You died. That's how this works.

You can either take this experience, learn from it, and try to learn about PvP, and understand how they did it. Or you can say, "it's not my fault, the Champion Points made them do it."

starkerealm

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

While there is no way for me to know how many CPs my opponents have I've killed plenty of VR14s with my VR5 Templar that has 44 CP. Also, I explained the answer to your 6 vs 24 question above. It's the Templars. 1 good one will swing a 50 person battle by themself but no one usually notices it. Healers are like an offensive line. You only notice them when they screw up. I'm specifically saying Templars though because practiced incantation may be the most underutilized spell in the whole game. My Templar heals everyone in my area over 3000 points a second for 6 seconds. You can easily swing a battle in those 6 seconds.

I've watched my clanfear on a level 40 snuff a VR14. If I had a CP advantage it was less than 30 points. And, my clanfear doesn't really care about my CP. So... yeah, no, CP is much less important than players who are unfamiliar with the systems seem to think.

Honestly, with as little time as I've spent on my vets since 1.6 hit. I'm on the low end of the CP curve, and I can still wreck players in Cyrodiil. When I say the CP doesn't matter that much, it's because I know I'm in the disadvantaged category here.

toca79

starkerealm wrote: »

toca79 wrote: »

Obviously the guys we were fighting had a huge amount of cps because in a 24 person raid we were dealing all kinds of damages and still they were not dying.

While it's quite possible that they did, there's nothing obvious about it.

You're sitting there making up a reason why you lost. And you've picked a scapegoat that looks credible to you, so you can shift the blame off.

You're saying, "well, obviously, I lost because they had godlike powers." No, you lost because you were new to Cyrodiil, and hadn't actually fought live opponents before. And you ran into people who normally play against live opponents, and knew what to do to wreck you. And they did.

Their CP isn't what let them win. Their experience was the deciding factor.

toca79 wrote: »

Again we probably were all nooobs still it ridiculous that we were defeated, the sheer amount of damage we were putting put should have destroyed them.

War doesn't work like that. Sheer numbers does not guarantee success. You can look at any number of examples in history, real world examples.

ESO is anything but realistic, but it does get this detail right. A small coordinated force that knows what they're doing can easily overwhelm and obliterate a larger uncoordinated force that is unready for combat.

They knew what they were doing. You didn't. You died. That's how this works.

You can either take this experience, learn from it, and try to learn about PvP, and understand how they did it. Or you can say, "it's not my fault, the Champion Points made them do it."

To be honest I play for fun, I don't want to get home from work and have to study to play a game nor do i have the time to farm cp.
You say the sheer amount of damage is not always a deciding factor citing war history and you're not wrong, but I simply don't care, am i here for an history lesson or to have fun?
I would like that the game give anyone a chance to win, obviously it's not like that, Im not trying to convince anyone I stated my opinion, if you do not agree I'm fine with it but out of curiosity i would like to know how many cp you have...

THEDKEXPERIENCE

If you can self heal fast enough there will be times where 1 good player with no CPs can hold off 15 players using only a resto staff. It happens. That same player can then make one mistake and get melted just as quickly. There are tons of things you can do in Cyrodiil to even the odds.

For example, knowing where the closest NPCs are so you can use them as meat shields; fighting down hill instead of up hill; not attacking that one guy standing in the middle of nowhere (he isn't alone); using natural cover; befriending a healer; buying filled grand soul gems (rezzing 1 teammate is more valuable than killing 1 bad guy); repairing your armor etc.

There are so many things that go into being good at PVP before you need to worry about build effectiveness. You're almost better off learning to play with a sub standard build and then ramping up to a high powered one.

markt84

toca79 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

toca79 wrote: »

Obviously the guys we were fighting had a huge amount of cps because in a 24 person raid we were dealing all kinds of damages and still they were not dying.

While it's quite possible that they did, there's nothing obvious about it.

You're sitting there making up a reason why you lost. And you've picked a scapegoat that looks credible to you, so you can shift the blame off.

You're saying, "well, obviously, I lost because they had godlike powers." No, you lost because you were new to Cyrodiil, and hadn't actually fought live opponents before. And you ran into people who normally play against live opponents, and knew what to do to wreck you. And they did.

Their CP isn't what let them win. Their experience was the deciding factor.

toca79 wrote: »

Again we probably were all nooobs still it ridiculous that we were defeated, the sheer amount of damage we were putting put should have destroyed them.

War doesn't work like that. Sheer numbers does not guarantee success. You can look at any number of examples in history, real world examples.

ESO is anything but realistic, but it does get this detail right. A small coordinated force that knows what they're doing can easily overwhelm and obliterate a larger uncoordinated force that is unready for combat.

They knew what they were doing. You didn't. You died. That's how this works.

You can either take this experience, learn from it, and try to learn about PvP, and understand how they did it. Or you can say, "it's not my fault, the Champion Points made them do it."

To be honest I play for fun, I don't want to get home from work and have to study to play a game nor do i have the time to farm cp.
You say the sheer amount of damage is not always a deciding factor citing war history and you're not wrong, but I simply don't care, am i here for an history lesson or to have fun?
I would like that the game give anyone a chance to win, obviously it's not like that, Im not trying to convince anyone I stated my opinion, if you do not agree I'm fine with it but out of curiosity i would like to know how many cp you have...

This forum is full of cp grinders, so anytime anyone speaks out against them the forum blows up with criticism. Even tho everyone knows they give players a huge advantage, but for some reason they try to convince people it doesn't, when they even now it is. If it wasn't they would wouldn't of grinded for so long to get a ton of them

starkerealm

toca79 wrote: »

To be honest I play for fun, I don't want to get home from work and have to study to play a game nor do i have the time to farm cp.

I'm going to single this out again, because, I can't stress this enough. You are making an excuse for yourself. CP has nothing to do with this. Their CP did not cause you to lose. That's like saying, "oh, I'll bet they all have gaming keyboards, and that's why they won." NO! It didn't. Maybe it provides an advantage. But this is only an excuse, by you, for why you think losing wasn't a reflection on your experience with PvP.

toca79 wrote: »

You say the sheer amount of damage is not always a deciding factor citing war history and you're not wrong, but I simply don't care, am i here for an history lesson or to have fun?
I would like that the game give anyone a chance to win, obviously it's not like that, Im not trying to convince anyone I stated my opinion, if you do not agree I'm fine with it but out of curiosity i would like to know how many cp you have...

Then, to give you what you want, you'd need a PvP environment that would be nothing but a mindless zerg swarm. No thought, no skill, no real advancement. Just, "all aboard the zerg train, choo-choo!"

Yeah, that isn't particularly appealing.

And, again, you're probably talking about people who have spent a year doing this. Saying, "I should be as good or better than these guys the first time I try" is completely unreasonable. Completely. Unreasonable.

starkerealm

markt84 wrote: »

This forum is full of cp grinders, so anytime anyone speaks out against them the forum blows up with criticism. Even tho everyone knows they give players a huge advantage, but for some reason they try to convince people it doesn't, when they even now it is. If it wasn't they would wouldn't of grinded for so long to get a ton of them

Okay, then tell me how many CP I have.

I've "grinded" them. Tell me, what is the number?

Tonnopesce

TheBull wrote: »

It could never be bad play. Getting Wrecked happens OP. Play better.

I have mainly switched to console only to solve the macro issue, and i'm having a lot of fun on the PS4

Makkir

answer is

markt84

starkerealm wrote: »

markt84 wrote: »

This forum is full of cp grinders, so anytime anyone speaks out against them the forum blows up with criticism. Even tho everyone knows they give players a huge advantage, but for some reason they try to convince people it doesn't, when they even now it is. If it wasn't they would wouldn't of grinded for so long to get a ton of them

Okay, then tell me how many CP I have.

I've "grinded" them. Tell me, what is the number?

Did I say anything about you? Did I quote you? And what do I care what you have. I play the game, I have 10v1ed a few v14 with a bunch of CPs and got whipped plenty of times to see the advantage CPs gives a player first hand. I've seen what a Zerg of v14s can do to another Zerg. And I forgot your the dude the is a level 40 that just wrecks v14s on ur reg. you have enough to have CPs on your level 40 character, that should have 0

starkerealm

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

It could never be bad play. Getting Wrecked happens OP. Play better.

I have mainly switched to console only to solve the macro issue, and i'm having a lot of fun on the PS4

Someone was dumb enough to macro one of the devs during their IC stream. Call it an overly optimistic hunch, but I kinda suspect the macro's days are numbered.

Tonnopesce

starkerealm wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

It could never be bad play. Getting Wrecked happens OP. Play better.

I have mainly switched to console only to solve the macro issue, and i'm having a lot of fun on the PS4

Someone was dumb enough to macro one of the devs during their IC stream. Call it an overly optimistic hunch, but I kinda suspect the macro's days are numbered.

Awesome! I hope so, I’m feeling quite alone between the console players. Literally no- one is using the text chat... o wait.

SirAndy

starkerealm wrote: »

They knew what they were doing. You didn't. You died. That's how this works.

That is the most naive comment i have read on here in quite a while.

You would be right IF:
- There were no CP points
- There was no animation canceling
- There were no instagib 5 attacks in one second macros
- There were no broken game mechanics to exploit

The fact that the thread below is still on the front page of the forums is really all you need to know about the current state of PvP:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/207533/skill-is-a-myth/p1