Why do zergs get 57.5% free damage reduction?

jrkhan

I believe the following is still in effect since 1.6:
"Removed hard caps on the number of targets that can be affected by area of effect abilities.
AoE abilities can now hit up to 60 targets; the first 6 will take 100% damage, the next 24 targets will take 50% damage, and the last 30 targets will take 25% damage.
Abilities that apply a secondary effect, such as Dark Talons, will only immobilize the first 6 targets who take damage."

Why should this apply to players taking aoe damage in pvp?
Let's say you have an aoe that hits 60 players..
10% of those players take 100% damage, 40% take 50% damage, and 50% are tickled for 25% damage.

So your average player has damage reduced by 57.5%
Does this promote tactical small group play, or does it encourage stacking as many people as possible on to one spot for free damage reduction?
These extra players don't really even need to contribute, just by being there they reduce the chance that any other players take full damage from aoes.

Rylana

jrkhan wrote: »

I believe the following is still in effect since 1.6:
"Removed hard caps on the number of targets that can be affected by area of effect abilities.
AoE abilities can now hit up to 60 targets; the first 6 will take 100% damage, the next 24 targets will take 50% damage, and the last 30 targets will take 25% damage.
Abilities that apply a secondary effect, such as Dark Talons, will only immobilize the first 6 targets who take damage."

Why should this apply to players taking aoe damage in pvp?
Let's say you have an aoe that hits 60 players..
10% of those players take 100% damage, 40% take 50% damage, and 50% are tickled for 25% damage.

So your average player has damage reduced by 57.5%
Does this promote tactical small group play, or does it encourage stacking as many people as possible on to one spot for free damage reduction?
These extra players don't really even need to contribute, just by being there they reduce the chance that any other players take full damage from aoes.

And this is why you see the organized raids running with cannon fodder support groups.

16 players in their main group, the group they claim to be, 30-40 running with them that dont "count"

But in the end, the AD blob on Haderus, for example, is 50 strong all of the time.

FENGRUSH

QuebraRegra

it's seems counter intuitive to addressing the ZERG problem. Most of the AOE skills don't have that great a range, if yer 60+ standing on top of one another while fighting you should be punished, not rewarded. I assume that was some heavy handed change to address complaints of AOE effects? Maybe just reducing the range slightly would have been better.

Maybe I'm missing something?

CavalierKing

Yeah, it's probably to address steel tornado, caltrops, etc. spamming.

tplink3r1

CavalierKing wrote: »

Yeah, it's probably to address steel tornado, caltrops, etc. spamming.

Don't stick together with too many people and you won't have problems with those abilities.

WRX

Yeah this really should go honestly. And it means shields take less damage which is definitely not good either.

Soulac

Your dmg should increase by the amount of people you hit and not decrease..

bosmern_ESO

If anything, damage should be increased based on the number of targets hit so it would be possible for a group of 12 to wipe a group of 40

danno8

It used to hard cap at 6 period.

So the extra damage is more than it was pre 1.6. But I agree, why not just make it 100% for everyone in the area of effect?

Morvul

danno8 wrote: »

It used to hard cap at 6 period.

So the extra damage is more than it was pre 1.6. But I agree, why not just make it 100% for everyone in the area of effect?

this!
reduces calculations to be done by the server - AND incentives for players to spread out a bit, even further reducing calculation load!

Lava_Croft

For a long time I've thought that AoE caps were a necessity , but ever since 2.zerg I long for uncapped AoE skills.

Garion

CavalierKing wrote: »

Yeah, it's probably to address steel tornado, caltrops, etc. spamming.

No it's not.

In the early days there were many skills that weren't capped - you know, when the game didn't lag because the server wasn't having to make hundreds, thousands of calculations a second even. People started to QQ about this (of course) because it meant that small, well coordinated groups could effectively wipe out an entire zerg. Zenimax introduced AOE caps (all skills capped at ~6 for the most part) in response to this QQ, and the zergball meta started until it eventually grew into what it was today.

People then QQ'd about this and so Zenimax introduced the system outlined in the OP - which was introduced in 1.6. It's far better than having everything capped I guess, but it's a long way from what we should have - no AOE caps at all!

BigTone

Curious, does the AoE cap apply to siege damage too?

Either way, AoE cap is something that should be removed. I want to wipe 15+ with my Proxy+Dawnbreaker

Garion

BigTone wrote: »

Curious, does the AoE cap apply to siege damage too?

Either way, AoE cap is something that should be removed. I want to wipe 15+ with my Proxy+Dawnbreaker

Siege isn't AOE capped.

Lava_Croft

Garion wrote: »

CavalierKing wrote: »

Yeah, it's probably to address steel tornado, caltrops, etc. spamming.

No it's not.

In the early days there were many skills that weren't capped - you know, when the game didn't lag because the server wasn't having to make hundreds, thousands of calculations a second even. People started to QQ about this (of course) because it meant that small, well coordinated groups could effectively wipe out an entire zerg. Zenimax introduced AOE caps (all skills capped at ~6 for the most part) in response to this QQ, and the zergball meta started until it eventually grew into what it was today.

People then QQ'd about this and so Zenimax introduced the system outlined in the OP - which was introduced in 1.6. It's far better than having everything capped I guess, but it's a long way from what we should have - no AOE caps at all!

Most skills in ESO have always had AoE caps and only a handful of skills were among the ones who got their caps applied in a later patch.

Alomar

We've been begging for the removal of aoe caps since they announced they were adding them lol. Yet, as those live streams and the *** state Cyrodiil is currently in clearly shows they simply are out of touch with their own game.

Rylana

Alomar wrote: »

We've been begging for the removal of aoe caps since they announced they were adding them lol. Yet, as those live streams and the *** state Cyrodiil is currently in clearly shows they simply are out of touch with their own game.

Im still worried removing them further would still make the zerg even stronger

Every time they add something new to try to break the zerg... it just gets copied to every robot in the zerg and makes it that much more efficient and impossible to break

12 proxdets hitting 48 guys, or 48 proxdets hitting 12 guys, its still going to be a nuclear bomb, that is more than likely due to the sheer number of barriers and heals available to the 48 man, going to favor the 48 man.

WRX

Rylana wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

We've been begging for the removal of aoe caps since they announced they were adding them lol. Yet, as those live streams and the *** state Cyrodiil is currently in clearly shows they simply are out of touch with their own game.

Im still worried removing them further would still make the zerg even stronger

Every time they add something new to try to break the zerg... it just gets copied to every robot in the zerg and makes it that much more efficient and impossible to break

12 proxdets hitting 48 guys, or 48 proxdets hitting 12 guys, its still going to be a nuclear bomb, that is more than likely due to the sheer number of barriers and heals available to the 48 man, going to favor the 48 man.

While I do agree there has been little success to busting up zergs so far, 100% dmg to all targets would be a huge increase.

These guilds wouldn't even have a strat if they couldnt all mitigate damage to their shields by just stacking.

Add that and more powerful proxy det, bomb squads would be really effective.

Joy_Division

Rylana wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

We've been begging for the removal of aoe caps since they announced they were adding them lol. Yet, as those live streams and the *** state Cyrodiil is currently in clearly shows they simply are out of touch with their own game.

Im still worried removing them further would still make the zerg even stronger

Every time they add something new to try to break the zerg... it just gets copied to every robot in the zerg and makes it that much more efficient and impossible to break

12 proxdets hitting 48 guys, or 48 proxdets hitting 12 guys, its still going to be a nuclear bomb, that is more than likely due to the sheer number of barriers and heals available to the 48 man, going to favor the 48 man.

My main problem with AoE caps is if a raid of 24 proxdets and a group of 6 proxdets each other, the resulting nuclear bomb leaves the group of 6 completely wiped whereas 18 members of the other raid have at least half their health.

Soulac

If I am able to hit 30+ with a single skill that means that the enemy group is stacking together on a small place.
Why should they get rewarded for that?

Sanct16

Rylana wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

We've been begging for the removal of aoe caps since they announced they were adding them lol. Yet, as those live streams and the *** state Cyrodiil is currently in clearly shows they simply are out of touch with their own game.

Im still worried removing them further would still make the zerg even stronger

Every time they add something new to try to break the zerg... it just gets copied to every robot in the zerg and makes it that much more efficient and impossible to break

12 proxdets hitting 48 guys, or 48 proxdets hitting 12 guys, its still going to be a nuclear bomb, that is more than likely due to the sheer number of barriers and heals available to the 48 man, going to favor the 48 man.

Well imagina a fight 12v24. Who gets more profit from AoE caps?

And lets be honest: ZOS doesnt want 12 ppl to beat 24. Thats just a fact.

TBois

Sanct16 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

We've been begging for the removal of aoe caps since they announced they were adding them lol. Yet, as those live streams and the *** state Cyrodiil is currently in clearly shows they simply are out of touch with their own game.

Im still worried removing them further would still make the zerg even stronger

Every time they add something new to try to break the zerg... it just gets copied to every robot in the zerg and makes it that much more efficient and impossible to break

12 proxdets hitting 48 guys, or 48 proxdets hitting 12 guys, its still going to be a nuclear bomb, that is more than likely due to the sheer number of barriers and heals available to the 48 man, going to favor the 48 man.

Well imagina a fight 12v24. Who gets more profit from AoE caps?

And lets be honest: ZOS doesnt want 12 ppl to beat 24. Thats just a fact.

The group of 24 would have the benefit unless they are stacked tight. If the were all spaced out the group of 24 would still have the advantage. The current game mechanics encourage stacking. No ape cap discourages that. What type of game do you want to play.

TBois

Also zos doesn't want a game where 12 can beat 24. Then I don't understand why they didn't just go with arenas and battlegrounds. In good rvr games a smart group of 12 should be able to best a dumb group of 24

FluffiestOne

sixuponthelot wrote: »

Also zos doesn't want a game where 12 can beat 24. Then I don't understand why they didn't just go with arenas and battlegrounds. In good rvr games a smart group of 12 should be able to best a dumb group of 24

Agreement. C:

Septimus_Magna

The answer would probably be, because palyers would be doing to much damage to npcs in pve. For reasons unknown the damage calculations for npcs and players have remained the same.

Meanwhile, the servers cant handle the big groups and the players dont get the right tools to destroy and discourage zergs. Even the recent prox deto change is useless for stopping zergs, in fact, it has been a buff to zergs.

Reduce incoming healing and increase incoming damage for large number of players in the same area, problem solved!

Two birds, one stone..

FENGRUSH

If this issue floods the forums long enough and heavily enough, it may gain some traction. It needs more than a small following.

Taonnor

And this problem will be going stronger with 2.1.

If the fights are around 50% longer, the 57% dmg mitigation for large gropus will be much much stronger. There is no more way to kill a great blob with a coordinated impact, because of the current AoE caps. The blob will simply hold up theire barriers and heals the impact. After that the DPS discrepancy will kill the smaller group.

So i'm for no AoE cap!

FluffiestOne

#REMOVEAOECAP

Ishammael

Remove AoE cap. Its been said since day one. Zergs are gonna get REAL in 1.7.

GRxKnight

Rylana wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I believe the following is still in effect since 1.6:
"Removed hard caps on the number of targets that can be affected by area of effect abilities.
AoE abilities can now hit up to 60 targets; the first 6 will take 100% damage, the next 24 targets will take 50% damage, and the last 30 targets will take 25% damage.
Abilities that apply a secondary effect, such as Dark Talons, will only immobilize the first 6 targets who take damage."

Why should this apply to players taking aoe damage in pvp?
Let's say you have an aoe that hits 60 players..
10% of those players take 100% damage, 40% take 50% damage, and 50% are tickled for 25% damage.

So your average player has damage reduced by 57.5%
Does this promote tactical small group play, or does it encourage stacking as many people as possible on to one spot for free damage reduction?
These extra players don't really even need to contribute, just by being there they reduce the chance that any other players take full damage from aoes.

And this is why you see the organized raids running with cannon fodder support groups.

16 players in their main group, the group they claim to be, 30-40 running with them that dont "count"

But in the end, the AD blob on Haderus, for example, is 50 strong all of the time.

Implying that the AD on Haderus is the only one who does this