Interaction between Detection Potions and Nightblade Cloak needs COUNTERPLAY :)

Maulkin

jnorris91ub17_ESO wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

I don´t want to escape, I want to defend myself.
Why should my only defense ability get countered that easily, but shields are stackable, refreshable and don´t got a single counter.
Give me a defense ability i can rely on and I will never cry about cloak again.

I disagree partially.

There is the warlock / blood mage Nightblade archetype character who can be relatively tanky and survivable, although I imagine that as a high self-healing character. Large health pool, lots of heals, especially heals over time, some durability, but no shields or anything like that. Siphoning already achieves this pretty nicely.

However, the bursty rogue archetype Nightblade is quite the opposite. They do NOT tank damage. They do NOT have shields. When pinned down, they do NOT stay and fight...necessarily... They escape promptly, reposition, and reenter the fight from an unexpected angle for more burst. They are assassins. This is the archetype that I was speaking of.

If you want to stay and fight once people start jumping on you, play a Siphon Nightblade or play a DK or Templar. That's just how the classes work.

You tell him. He has no idea, he's a noob NB.



To the mods: I'm joking, no more banerinos cause you no get sarcasm

Dracane

Only the user of the potion should be able to see stealthed enemies.
I drink the potion, it goes right into my eyes and makes me able to see, what the normal eye doesn't see doesn't make sense, that other people can see it either, even though it was me drinking the potion.

But still, detection potion should remain as they are, the duration already got reduced by 10 seconds with this update. 20 meters radius is manageable and with the high speed of Nightblades, this small distance is bypassed in no time.
Cloak would be the most overpowered ability in the entire game, if they would make a change to detection potions besides making it so, that only the user shall see invisible enemies.

Domander

I think its fine, but I'd love to have a "seeing eye" animation on players using a detect potion.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Not sure how to say this nicely but the F*ck Mage Light = useless??? So 60% less damage from stealth attacks AND immunity from ALL stealth Stuns. They may as well name it anti-cloak. For all the people that don't know how Mage light works it's not for "finding" stealth players it's for keeping them out of melee range aka sneaking up on you and limiting the damage they can do once near you from stealth.

Smh half the Nightblade Assassins have on while they hunt in stealth cause it don't work because that makes all the sense.

Xeniph

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Not sure how to say this nicely but the F*ck Mage Light = useless??? So 60% less damage from stealth attacks AND immunity from ALL stealth Stuns. They may as well name it anti-cloak. For all the people that don't know how Mage light works it's not for "finding" stealth players it's for keeping them out of melee range aka sneaking up on you and limiting the damage they can do once near you from stealth.

Smh half the Nightblade Assassins have on while they hunt in stealth cause it don't work because that makes all the sense.

STOP that! Please do not tell everyone how good the skill actually is. I much prefer they keep it off their bars.

EDIT: I don't think people don't use it cause it "sucks" It's more that they would rather have something else on their bar. Then they just use the excuse that it sucks. I think everyone would use it if they had a toggle spot that didn't interfere with their other 5 slots. Well, everyone but hardened ward spammers, cause no stealth crit+large shield means no worry, unless semi afk.

GreenSoup2HoT

If detect potion's did not work how the hell would you counter a magicka nightblade?

There is no such thing as a detection radius when a magicka nightblade use's cloak with 100% up time.

Piercing Mark only work's once you see them (Countered by purge anyway) and once you see them you most likely are dead from magicka det combo's.
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LOL at the magicka nb's who want detect potion's to not work, get real. You know if that happened Magicka nb's would be plain cheese.

To boot, detect potion's must be farmed.

You can tell if someone has a detect potion active. Your detect Eye will slowly open even when your far away from your target. That's 20 meter's to work with, popping in and out. Good player's can still put in damage and then return to the shadow's.

Draehl

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

If detect potion's did not work how the hell would you counter a magicka nightblade?

There is no such thing as a detection radius when a magicka nightblade use's cloak with 100% up time.

Piercing Mark only work's once you see them (Countered by purge anyway) and once you see them you most likely are dead from magicka det combo's.
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LOL at the magicka nb's who want detect potion's to not work, get real. You know if that happened Magicka nb's would be plain cheese.

To boot, detect potion's must be farmed.

I agree with you- though I'm also saying we need more legit defenses besides cloak. I'd support increasing the cost or making it act like Bolt Escape Cloak with increasing costs for spamming it. Cloak works so well on live because of the wide open spaces in Cyrodiil. More often than not moving in any given direction will take you where there isn't someone and you can escape. The tight quartered fighting in IC makes it very difficult to escape or avoid detection, which is particularly problematic if you're using cloak as a defensive tool.

GreenSoup2HoT

@Draehl So you want something to escape? Literally one of the best escape's in the game "Summon Shadow/Teleport".

I'm just saying, Magicka nb's already have it really good. Detect potion's are like the only counter. I dunno why people complain.

Cloak is still broken to boot, magicka nb's don't even have there full potential. Yet they want more.
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Take a look at stamina nb's in pts. Who have it worse off.... there is no such thing as escape as a stamina nb. Kill or be killed.

Draehl

@GreenSoup2HoT
If everyone were an assassin NB I'd agree with you. Other builds do exist that aren't "meta" yet are logical and consistent with developer intent. It's too bad they have yet to follow through with the viability improvements for several situations. (See the stamina Sorc thread, for example) Yes, we get it- assassin NBs are strong. So are DK tanks, Templar healers, and Sorc casters. This game was clearly designed to be more than that, yet here we are still largely stuck with cliche builds and being held to the standards of just those OP builds.

Xeniph

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

If detect potion's did not work how the hell would you counter a magicka nightblade?

There is no such thing as a detection radius when a magicka nightblade use's cloak with 100% up time.

Piercing Mark only work's once you see them (Countered by purge anyway) and once you see them you most likely are dead from magicka det combo's.
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LOL at the magicka nb's who want detect potion's to not work, get real. You know if that happened Magicka nb's would be plain cheese.

To boot, detect potion's must be farmed.

You can tell if someone has a detect potion active. Your detect Eye will slowly open even when your far away from your target.

While I agree (Though I hate too) detect pots are necessary evil. They should only work on stealth and not cloak. Also they are by no means the only way to ferret out a magicka NB.

With aoe's, magelight, dots, curse and flare (flare is actually amazing now) finding a cloaking NB, even a magicka one is easier then ever.
And then there are the bugs with cloak-

All gap closers still hit a cloaked player
Focused aim will continue to hit a cloaked player if spammed (Lethal arrow doesn't)
inevitable det will pull a player out of cloak twice- once when receiving the debuff and once when it explodes.

And a few others I'm sure I forgot. I think what most NB have an issue with is that the potion works with cloak, a class skill. it would be like making a potion that reduces self healing to 0% against a Templar. Or a potion that stops a Sorc from using hardened ward for 40 seconds if within 20m.

Then there is the issue with who benefits from the potion, which is everyone. Due to the way detection works. Once revealed, everyone can see them making the potion way more powerful than it should be.

Also as an fyi- Piercing mark is quite effective against a purging magicka NB. Since it takes 2 casts of purge to drop the mark there is ample time to reapply.
Magicka detonation on the pts. Can only explode every 8 seconds and does pitiful damage on a single target.

GreenSoup2HoT

@Xeniph

The main problem why this thread get's no where is because some are comparing Live to Pts or vice versa.
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-In live, magicka nb's can out right one shot you (scary stuff). So you need detection potion's to prevent this, it's still hard to even know a magicka nb is on you in the first place before your dead.

-On pts, magicka nightblade's killing potential has gone way down. So cloak is necessary. You wont get 1 shotted which give's you time to pop a detect potion and completely ruin magicka nb's day.
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Here's where you look at the other side though. Think about a Stamina Nightblade, how's one's escape-ability compared to a Magicka Nb? (in pts)

-You cant endlessly cloak
-You cant roll away

All you can do is hope you get the kill in your initial assault so you can get back into stealth.

Magicka nightblade's have the luxury of perma-cloak. Detect potion's should work on cloak because on the other side, a stamina nb would have to use invisibility potion's to pull the same thing and still be seen by detect potion's.

You may be seen by detect potion's but you can still play smart and stay clear of them.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Okay guys let me let in you on Nightblade logic Veiled Strike and it's morphs Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapons, not only are they great attacks (best Instant cast melee damage in the game) but Shadow Barrier is a beautiful buff that's why it's spammed great damage and great buff.

Shadow Cloak breaks a lot like a half second after cast so much that spamming it as a Magic build or stamina with spell cost reductions they can't tell you have a pot going Cloak always says your hidden no matter what and with it breaking so much you just hit it again thinking it's working plus Shadow Barrier.

Why all the power builds just you can't half a** Nightblades with weak class heals, no shield, great CCs and debuffs and high burst it's no wonder why you go for burst. As a Nightblade you nuke or you go Super Tank we don't have that much flex.

We are the way we are cause we have to be. Take away our cloak or burst and you will have to give us big heals and a shield the only reason we don't have it is cause we have the burst and stealth. You can't just say fully counter this power and not fill that role with a different power or you highly risk breaking the class.

Nightblade defense is Cloak then a miss chance with the medium Armor power any class can get this, a AoE CC once every five seconds (still the best in game) and that's it. It's a you can't see me with a laundry list of counters an miss chance that anyone can get and a get off me. Wouldn't you try to kill as fast as possible with powers like this?

Thalmor-Nordmaster

how is it that a potion can grant a group ability? How can people not see that this is a broken potion. What next a sorc drinks a health pot and the whole group gets the heal too?

Xeniph

The potion got fixed today imo. 15 seconds is fair if ya ask me. Now all they need to do is find a way to take the "group Utility" out of it. But I highly doubt it will be possible.

And, pending testing, it looks like that fixed some abilities towards cloak. That's good new assuming they actually work.

Now to get on board with a new crusade. The Sorc 20% stam regen passive is utter BS, after taking 15% from my NB's.

KenaPKK

There should definitely be an animation that shows when someone has used a detect potion imo.

If not that, then only the person who used to potion should gain vision of hidden units. Meh.

Ludof

As I already said in other threads, I'd remove Detect Pots from the game since they let Dark Cloak be completely useless.
On the other hand I'd add something like BOL or Dodge Roll , increasing the cost after 2 or 3 consecutive uses (spam) of the skill.
Same thing for Healing ward...Its cost needs to be increased each time by 33%.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

As a Stamina Nightblade main (not too much self interest) with a Nightblade Blood Priest had him for a while only started leveled him and his week horse is still so but not depressingly slow. My healer needs Healing Ward it gives my HoTs and Springs to do it's thing. Non Templar healing is a role that makes powers like Ward and Quick Siphon a god sent.

Having two different damage absorbing effects up at the same time is the problem Ward and then a Harness, Bone Wall, Harding Ward and Sun Shield is what makes Healing Ward OP. It heals on cast and you get the value with x% of you expire with out being broken or recasted. All the shields above take damage before Ward giving time to get a free heal. Shield are both refreshable and noncrit having two shield up one that eats damage while the other heals you is a failure of balanced game mechanics.

Dracane

As soon as people figure out, that Summon teleport shade, teleport to it, cloak>speed buff and bye bye is a safe escape tactic that will always work, then many people will reroll Magicka Nightblade. Even I'm doing that currently, respecced my stamina Nightblade yesterday.

Nightblade is going to be very easy to play next update best escape tactic in the game if it's getting too dangerous.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

You're using the Shades in their most basic role as a stamina Nightblade drop shade at the top of a keep or wall > cloak > Ambush down (no fall damage cause teleport) > Death Stroke >light attack > Heroic Slash. Fight till the die or his friends come to save him then port right back up.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I think Detact pots breaking your cloak is just fine with the 15 seconds that's fair enough for me

Maulkin

Xeniph wrote: »

The potion got fixed today imo. 15 seconds is fair if ya ask me. Now all they need to do is find a way to take the "group Utility" out of it. But I highly doubt it will be possible.

And, pending testing, it looks like that fixed some abilities towards cloak. That's good new assuming they actually work.

Now to get on board with a new crusade. The Sorc 20% stam regen passive is utter BS, after taking 15% from my NB's.

Where's that lol button when you need it XD

Thalmor-Nordmaster

yes dracane it is nice but if you get fossilized it hurts. well the many whips hurt.ooh wait that another matter entirely and out of game oops. A nightblade that does not Hit and run is a dead Nightblade. the exception used to be a sap tank. But I havent tried the tanky part on the NB too much in the sewers. 4 on 1 then a mob pull I died pretty quickly. Next time I try that I will single the weakest one out first. and away from mobs.

OGLezard

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

The potion got fixed today imo. 15 seconds is fair if ya ask me. Now all they need to do is find a way to take the "group Utility" out of it. But I highly doubt it will be possible.

And, pending testing, it looks like that fixed some abilities towards cloak. That's good new assuming they actually work.

Now to get on board with a new crusade. The Sorc 20% stam regen passive is utter BS, after taking 15% from my NB's.

Where's that lol button when you need it XD

@mike.gaziotisb16_eso I got you covered, I made this when they removed our LOL button, use it up :P

http://i.imgur.com/6nqQ1FL.jpg

Dracane

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

yes dracane it is nice but if you get fossilized it hurts. well the many whips hurt.ooh wait that another matter entirely and out of game oops. A nightblade that does not Hit and run is a dead Nightblade. the exception used to be a sap tank. But I havent tried the tanky part on the NB too much in the sewers. 4 on 1 then a mob pull I died pretty quickly. Next time I try that I will single the weakest one out first. and away from mobs.

Yea I know, Nightblades strenght is damage. I'm talking about cloak as an escape mechanic, nothing else.
Look at cowardly Nightblades like Kris and Co. They run away, return 30 seconds later with a bomb combo and then repeat. Now it's fairly counterable with detection potions. But in 1.7, they can play their foolish game without any interference.
IF cloak remains as it is now under the given circumstances, then at least make Revealing flare become an reliable counter.
Detection potions are out of the game basically, Magelights range is way too short.

They must improve flare so that it's worth slotting. The way this ability is working.... it basically counters itself.
This ability must instantly hit in as soon as I activated the AoE radius, without this annoying flying animation. This is more than enough time for Nightblades to move out of the radius and then good luck finding them. I invite you to shot flare like crazy to drain your Magicka and allow them to escape or to laugh at you.

If flare would hit instantly, then I consider it a great counter and will take it.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

Dracane true cloak is a good if not major part of running away. As Monty Python said Run away. Run away some more. Now only if I had a wooden Badger

when running away dont forget to use the shade teleport morph and get some more distance and change of direction, try to break los. Maybe throw in a shuffle. 15 seconds to worry about with a single target. if many they may be swapping pot cooldowns oops. oh well its circling birdies over my head and a teabag or two incoming.I may have some other tricks. I dont perma cloak although I know some peeps who one key macroed that crap and its wrong.I was even sent the program. I emailed it to SD so he/they could find out who made it. no wurd yet they banned him for supporting the cause of the filthy cats.
that should teach him no good can come from mingling with half breeds, mongrels, nords, or cannibals.

I see cloak being used alot for IC and I can understand many not wanting it touched. Zig zagging through NPC's to get way is ok to me.Let them go its one person and not much XP. As a NB we really have nothing else to get away. With the bugs and gltiches of 1.6 with the nirn stacking and other bugs Some NB's kinda traded the classes integrity for things they knew was wrong. It hurt every NB when they did that.

I sent in an exploit on how some where getting into keeps and it was ignored GG Zenimax. It still hasn't been fixed. Its crap like that that say's Nerf my class to the ground Nerf it all make NB's only able to use level one weapons and armor. I do not like cheaters,thief's or cowards and when someone cheats in a game it usually results in Mass Punishment of the whole class. a good example Bl***8.

Have a nice day

For the glory of the Thalmor!!!

Editied to comply with the Naming and shaming censorship of the communist overlords.

OGLezard

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

Dracane true cloak is a good if not major part of running away. As Monty Python said Run away. Run away some more. Now only if I had a wooden Badger

when running away dont forget to use the shade teleport morph and get some more distance and change of direction, try to break los. Maybe throw in a shuffle. 15 seconds to worry about with a single target. if many they may be swapping pot cooldowns oops. oh well its circling birdies over my head and a teabag or two incoming.I may have some other tricks. I dont perma cloak although I know some peeps who one key macroed that crap and its wrong.I was even sent the program. I emailed it to SD so he/they could find out who made it. no wurd yet they banned him for supporting the cause of the filthy cats.
that should teach him no good can come from mingling with half breeds, mongrels, nords, or cannibals.

I see cloak being used alot for IC and I can understand many not wanting it touched. Zig zagging through NPC's to get way is ok to me.Let them go its one person and not much XP. As a NB we really have nothing else to get away. With the bugs and gltiches of 1.6 with the nirn stacking and other bugs Some NB's kinda traded the classes integrity for things they knew was wrong. It hurt every NB when they did that.

I sent in an exploit on how some where getting into keeps and it was ignored GG Zenimax. It still hasn't been fixed. Its crap like that that say's Nerf my class to the ground Nerf it all make NB's only able to use level one weapons and armor. I do not like cheaters,thief's or cowards and when someone cheats in a game it usually results in Mass Punishment of the whole class. a good example BL***EY.

Have a nice day

For the glory of the Thalmor!!!

Editied to comply with the Naming and shaming censorship of the communist overlords.

quoted and bolded the IMPORTANT part.........this is why we cant have nice things, people exploit the CRAP out of something and everyone ASSUMES it is the class and in the end, the exploit DOESNT get fixed GG @ZOS , and the class gets destroyed.

Prizax

Well I just find very funny seeing some NBs using Shadow Cloaked and believing they are immortal once they used it, but the truth is that they are just made of paper.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

yes dracane it is nice but if you get fossilized it hurts. well the many whips hurt.ooh wait that another matter entirely and out of game oops. A nightblade that does not Hit and run is a dead Nightblade. the exception used to be a sap tank. But I havent tried the tanky part on the NB too much in the sewers. 4 on 1 then a mob pull I died pretty quickly. Next time I try that I will single the weakest one out first. and away from mobs.

Yea I know, Nightblades strenght is damage. I'm talking about cloak as an escape mechanic, nothing else.
Look at cowardly Nightblades like Kris and Co. They run away, return 30 seconds later with a bomb combo and then repeat. Now it's fairly counterable with detection potions. But in 1.7, they can play their foolish game without any interference.
IF cloak remains as it is now under the given circumstances, then at least make Revealing flare become an reliable counter.
Detection potions are out of the game basically, Magelights range is way too short.

They must improve flare so that it's worth slotting. The way this ability is working.... it basically counters itself.
This ability must instantly hit in as soon as I activated the AoE radius, without this annoying flying animation. This is more than enough time for Nightblades to move out of the radius and then good luck finding them. I invite you to shot flare like crazy to drain your Magicka and allow them to escape or to laugh at you.

If flare would hit instantly, then I consider it a great counter and will take it.

Or you should drop it on yourself if the sit arrows hold block Pop a pot and have at it if melee they will be unable to hide. Plus Mage light is not a toggled Detect Pot it's job is to
Limit stealth damage and stuns and it does that. If you stealth hit someone with or near one "Target is immune" and they take 60% less damage that the whole stealth bonus so you take normal attack damage it not a immovable you can be stun just not from stealth.

A lot of the buffs wanted for Radiant Mage Light is cause you want full Stealth damage immunity and to see stealth players from as far away as pots if not farther.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

OG yes that is correct and It really makes me steam when it happens. And when it happens alot I usually just log out no point in playing or trying to fix keeps.I am not going to sacrifice my integrity and stoop to the level. I am not a if you cant beat them join them type.

I play my class to the best of my ability using everything I know. I do not go into grey areas and Fair Play is fun play. It will be much harder now to do things but I will continue plugging away Improvise.Adapt.Overcome. I am not happy that a few ruined it for all. And whatever befalls them C'est La vie

Thalmor-Nordmaster

Prizax we are only made out of paper once. and after a bad encounter we turn into confetti. But not normal confetti. Confetti with glitter that gets on you and in your keyboard and in your carpet. We cannot be removed!! Yaay!! PooF!! Pops Cloak Runs away !!