Interaction between Detection Potions and Nightblade Cloak needs COUNTERPLAY :)

wraithguknub18_ESO

Well Im just going to wait to see what happens after the patch comes out if they nerf nb cloak so its unusable (yes a bit of an overstatement) then so be it. Its a game Ill do my best to figure something else out that works or I will simply play a different class.

It is what it is and no game in the world is worth getting stressed out over like some do

Y'all have a nice day ya hear

Hiero_Glyph

1) Detect pots are the counter, that's why they don't need a counter.

2) A NB can cloak as often as they have the magicka to allow for it; another player can only use detect pots while they have some remaining in their inventory. Go find another target for a while then ambush them again later.

3) In terms of utility, why not use Double Take or Shadow Image to escape? Claiming NBs have no utility ignores that they also have the best fear skill in the game. This sounds more like a L2P issue as while it does take time to adjust and cloak is still changing it should not be an escape everything button.

wraithguknub18_ESO

As I said before I have no issue with the detect potions other than my selfish I wanna cloak and never be seen issue however I would be alot happier if it only worked on the person who used the pot and not his/her/shim's entire group

Dracane

wraithguknub18_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Honestly, I'm just pissed that they went back on what they said less than a month ago, which was that in 2.1 cloak was to be fixed so that detection pots no longer worked on them. 2.1.1 comes out and that statement was thrown out the window.

Cloak has never worked correctly, and if this change goes live I'm convinced it never will. There's no reason to be a NB anymore.

Because they realized, how ridiculous it is to make cloak immune to detection potions. Cloak would be totally overpowered if they would have done that.

Cloak is extremely strong, even with detection potions. But why should permablockers, roll dodgers and blinkers suffer, while Nightblade get an overpowered survival mechanic ? No thank you. That's why they decided to not release this change, I hope you have insight for this.

@wraithguknub18_ESO That's alright. Of course you can tell your opinion that's appreciated.
As long as people can't tell you, WHY they disagree with your opinion, I wouldn't bother listening to them. But I agree with Teiji

I have absolutely no problem with someone disagreeing with me in an intelligent non-name calling or the famous L2P comments. Disagree by all means but at least have an intelligent response to why I am wrong (I am not saying this to anyone in particular just in general)

That's how it's done

Celas_Dranacea

Even with the nerf to burst gank builds with 50% less damage in 1.7 I think us nightblades will be just fine with cloak this way.

MmmmTofu

Make invisibility potion the counter of detection potion then . Invis potion has a very short duration and wont be ticked down so frequent to achieve chain invis.

Xsorus

With the way stealth works in this game, You need Detect Pots to work this way.

This is coming from someone who plays a Nightblade, and plans on doing Magicka Nightblade when this patch comes out.

TBois

If you are a magicka NB use fear, Healing ward and harness magicka. If you are a stam NB use dodge roll and vigor. NB's also have a class abilities that gives dodge chance and speed. If cloak is your only defensive ability as a NB you will be easy pickings for good players

Solanum

I'm sad to see a class defining ability negated by a potion entirely.

I do approve of this change, but I would like Nightblades to receive some love in regards to survivability.

There are no potions that give you the ability to stop some of the insane self healing other classes have, or their shields, or streak.

So how about giving us some of that damage absorb/self healing goodness eh?

Master_Kas

I wish there was potions that made you ignore hardened ward for example. Then these people could see what it's like when ONE person pops a detect potion and ignoring your defense skill. On top of that their allies nearby get that benefit aswell. The sorc QQ would be incredible.

This is specifically for magicka NB's who don't rely on dodgerolls.

But there's no point. ZOS clearly don't know how to handle and balance stuff.

wraithguknub18_ESO

it should be the pot ONLY works for the person who popped the pot. IMO

Xeniph

Detect pots are a pain when playing a NB. In all honesty I think the detection duration should be lowered to 15 seconds.

In 1.6+ the best counter to a detect pot was/is to kill the user, unless of coarse he's with a few more buddies than you can handle. However I don't feel this is much more of a change than last pts patch. Since single target skills still brake cloak without a pot.

I would however like to point out that no class skill has as many counters as Cloak does, in any patch since launch. And I can guarantee that if they introduced a potion that did, say...

"Prevents enemy from bolt escaping for X seconds"
or
"Prevents enemy from casting damage shields for X seconds"

Or any other ability that negatively impacted the usefulness of a class skill, the outrage would be tremendous.
Heck a couple of classes have healing abilities and shields, but only the heals can be limited with 2 debuffs.

I agree detect pots are a real pita for a particular playstyle, and small adjustments should be made. Overall though not much looks to be changing from 1.6, requiring little effort to adapt.

Xael

Dracane wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Honestly, I'm just pissed that they went back on what they said less than a month ago, which was that in 2.1 cloak was to be fixed so that detection pots no longer worked on them. 2.1.1 comes out and that statement was thrown out the window.

Cloak has never worked correctly, and if this change goes live I'm convinced it never will. There's no reason to be a NB anymore.

Because they realized, how ridiculous it is to make cloak immune to detection potions. Cloak would be totally overpowered if they would have done that.

Cloak is extremely strong, even with detection potions. But why should permablockers, roll dodgers and blinkers suffer, while Nightblade get an overpowered survival mechanic ? No thank you. That's why they decided to not release this change, I hope you have insight for this.

@wraithguknub18_ESO That's alright. Of course you can tell your opinion that's appreciated.
As long as people can't tell you, WHY they disagree with your opinion, I wouldn't bother listening to them. But I agree with Teiji

Yeah because people are either too dumb or too lazy to slot radiant magelight which completely screws over cloak. But w/e. The growing trend in this game (like every other mmo before it) is to whine about stuff (even before it gets tested) and get it changed. Oh well.

SeptimusDova

Dark Khajiits who sneak. Footfalls silent and movements sleek are merely inconvenienced by potions as they send you a flying blade. They will simply melt back into the shade. Hssssss Mrrrrrrow

KenaPKK

Xael wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

MCMancub wrote: »

Honestly, I'm just pissed that they went back on what they said less than a month ago, which was that in 2.1 cloak was to be fixed so that detection pots no longer worked on them. 2.1.1 comes out and that statement was thrown out the window.

Cloak has never worked correctly, and if this change goes live I'm convinced it never will. There's no reason to be a NB anymore.

Because they realized, how ridiculous it is to make cloak immune to detection potions. Cloak would be totally overpowered if they would have done that.

Cloak is extremely strong, even with detection potions. But why should permablockers, roll dodgers and blinkers suffer, while Nightblade get an overpowered survival mechanic ? No thank you. That's why they decided to not release this change, I hope you have insight for this.

@wraithguknub18_ESO That's alright. Of course you can tell your opinion that's appreciated.
As long as people can't tell you, WHY they disagree with your opinion, I wouldn't bother listening to them. But I agree with Teiji

Yeah because people are either too dumb or too lazy to slot radiant magelight which completely screws over cloak. But w/e. The growing trend in this game (like every other mmo before it) is to whine about stuff (even before it gets tested) and get it changed. Oh well.

^ this

Radiant does not work consistently, though, which is unfortunate. Would be great if it did.

Either way, NBs are a thoroughly underpowered class when it comes to DEFENSE. Cloak is their primary defensive tool, and since detection pots reveal the invisibility component with zero counterplay, the forced miss is left as the primary means of defense. This is what I was describing earlier.

Xsorus

Radiant magelight is good vs sneak attacks, however it will not let you catch a a magicka nightblade with dark cloak

Xeniph

Xsorus wrote: »

Radiant magelight is good vs sneak attacks, however it will not let you catch a a magicka nightblade with dark cloak

It works great for me. However that's only because gap closers go through cloak. If they ever fix that it may change, but I still don't find it hard to stay in range as a NB, DK or Sorc (magic or stam spec) I do find it challenging on my Templar though.

Dracane

Xsorus wrote: »

Radiant magelight is good vs sneak attacks, however it will not let you catch a a magicka nightblade with dark cloak

This

Even the tiny 20 meter radius of detection potion barely let's me see permacloaking Magikca NIghtblades. How is a 10 meter light supposed to help me ? No thanks and as if 5 skill slots per bar wouldn't be less enough.
I would gladly slot Magelight, but there is no way this would work for me. It would destroy my build and would make it unplayable.

olemanwinter

I find it ABSURD that all group members can see a stealthed player if 1 single player uses a detect pot.

Groups will just start alternating Detect pot usage so that there is 100% uptime on visibility, essentially making NB INSTA-KILLED if they get anywhere near a group of people.

People always complain that NB are just "gankers". Well, how about stop forcing us to avoid group combat!

Xeniph

olemanwinter wrote: »

I find it ABSURD that all group members can see a stealthed player if 1 single player uses a detect pot.

Groups will just start alternating Detect pot usage so that there is 100% uptime on visibility, essentially making NB INSTA-KILLED if they get anywhere near a group of people.

People always complain that NB are just "gankers". Well, how about stop forcing us to avoid group combat!

The issue with this of coarse is how else could they do it. Obviously if the player using the pot stays out of combat range it might work, but if they are in combat range normal detection takes over and everyone could see them once revealed anyway.

They would have to change the whole detection system to accomplish this and as we all know, they have proven time and again that messing with code is not their forte. I personally would like to see them stop messing with crap that is actually working.

As to groups rotating potion CD's. They already do, however the limited 20m range is what keeps this in check and the fact that most raids won't usually chase a single stealthier. Unless they happen to run right over them, which would result in a death anyway.

Master_Kas

Dracane wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Radiant magelight is good vs sneak attacks, however it will not let you catch a a magicka nightblade with dark cloak

This

Even the tiny 20 meter radius of detection potion barely let's me see permacloaking Magikca NIghtblades. How is a 10 meter light supposed to help me ? No thanks and as if 5 skill slots per bar wouldn't be less enough.
I would gladly slot Magelight, but there is no way this would work for me. It would destroy my build and would make it unplayable.

You don't have to have it on both bars. I use it mostly on one since when you see his location : one streak/steel tornado/ whatever class you're playing and they are mostly Done for.

When I want to Hunt down magick nbs I slot it om both bars then let the Killing begin (on My stamblade).

You have plenty of counters to magicka nbs, up to you if you shall use it or not. :P

I have easier time chasing down magick nbs (stamblades aswell to thanks to streak+curse+ Boundless armor)on My sorc than My stamblade tbh. Sometimes I lock them down without magelight/detectpots aswell.

Vatter

As things sit right now magicka NB will be the strongest class in IC by a long shot. Everyone already knows this.

Draehl

My only gripe is there is no good way (proposed by anyone at least) way to separate utility/defensive uses of cloak, and offensive. I understand everyone is frustrated by the 2h/Bow/Destro assassins burst damage killing them so handily, however I, as a significantly weaker Nightblade caster/healer only use it in a defensive manner to temporarily avoid being run into the ground due to my lack of inherent tankiness, class based shields, and other generally terrible skills like Refreshing Path. It's rather frustrating to play a less than optimal build only to be further punished because the assassins are ruining everything for other classes and other nightblades alike...

Soulac

I don´t want to escape, I want to defend myself.
Why should my only defense ability get countered that easily, but shields are stackable, refreshable and don´t got a single counter.
Give me a defense ability i can rely on and I will never cry about cloak again.

AllPlayAndNoWork

Soulac wrote: »

I don´t want to escape, I want to defend myself.
Why should my only defense ability get countered that easily, but shields are stackable, refreshable and don´t got a single counter.
Give me a defense ability i can rely on and I will never cry about cloak again.

+1

Davkin

This was long overdue. Finaly

Draehl

Soulac wrote: »

I don´t want to escape, I want to defend myself.
Why should my only defense ability get countered that easily, but shields are stackable, refreshable and don´t got a single counter.
Give me a defense ability i can rely on and I will never cry about cloak again.

Yep. They can take cloak if they give a decent alternative to the NB tanks/healers/bloodmages/etc. We're not all assassins!

Stravokov

wraithguknub18_ESO wrote: »

As I said before I have no issue with the detect potions other than my selfish I wanna cloak and never be seen issue however I would be alot happier if it only worked on the person who used the pot and not his/her/shim's entire group

this is why to me it is imbalanced. totally OP if one person who drinks a detect pot grants detection to everyone in their group... that just doesn't make any sense. it should only work for the player who drank the potion.

if they made it that way i think it would be balanced. but as is, Detect pots are not balanced the way they work.

F7sus4

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

So despit becoming the new meta class to be you're still saying you need buffs and fixes. Wow sorcs didn't even QQ this much when they needed buffs and DKs now where closed QQ this much when they got nerfed.

Yes, they basically created numerous whine-topics instead and they were listened to. There's no reason for this particular topic not to be listened to as well.

KenaPKK

Soulac wrote: »

I don´t want to escape, I want to defend myself.
Why should my only defense ability get countered that easily, but shields are stackable, refreshable and don´t got a single counter.
Give me a defense ability i can rely on and I will never cry about cloak again.

I disagree partially.

There is the warlock / blood mage Nightblade archetype character who can be relatively tanky and survivable, although I imagine that as a high self-healing character. Large health pool, lots of heals, especially heals over time, some durability, but no shields or anything like that. Siphoning already achieves this pretty nicely.

However, the bursty rogue archetype Nightblade is quite the opposite. They do NOT tank damage. They do NOT have shields. When pinned down, they do NOT stay and fight...necessarily... They escape promptly, reposition, and reenter the fight from an unexpected angle for more burst. They are assassins. This is the archetype that I was speaking of.

If you want to stay and fight once people start jumping on you, play a Siphon Nightblade or play a DK or Templar. That's just how the classes work.