Vampires needing to slot ability to much of a punishment?

Clarebear

Patch Notes Link http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/200571/pts-patch-notes-v2-1/p1


Werewolf
You can now safely press the button for the werewolf ultimate repeatedly without fear of immediately reverting back to normal again.
Removed Stamina Regeneration from Lycanthropy; it now requires Werewolf Transformation to be slotted in your ability bar.
Reduced the poison damage you receive while in Werewolf form to 25% from 40%.
Fixed an issue which was allowing Negate Magic to pull Werewolves out of Werewolf Form.
Fixed an issue where heavy attacks would play twice before striking your target while in werewolf form.
You can no longer fish or use the dye station while in werewolf form.
Devour: This ability can no longer target a destroyed Aura of Protection totem.
Infectious Claws (Claws of Anguish morph): Fixed an issue where the healing debuff was stacking with other healing debuffs.
Savage Strength (passive): This passive will no longer will be removed when your character is killed.

Vampire
Reduced the fire damage you receive to 25% from 40%.
Drain Essence: This ability now restores 10% of your health every second, and stuns your target on activation. It can be used on CC-immune targets, and can be used all the time (it no longer activates the Feed debuff).
Supernatural Recovery (passive): This passive now only works while any Vampire ability is slotted in your ability bar.

Azurulia

Corpsage wrote: »

The changes coming to Vampires SUCK. As a magicka Templar I chose to become a Vampire SPECIFICALLY for the regen passives. Do I have room on my bar(S) for a Vampire ability, no. Not without sacrificing something I actually NEED on my bar(S). As a Vampire I constantly take more damage from fire attacks as well as the loss of health regen, because I am 100% of the time a Vampire. There's no transformation, this is now my full being. Does it make sense that I dont feel certain effects because I chose to not have Vampire specific abilities slotted? Absolutely not when I am 100% of the time in game a Vampire.

My real gripe with the vampire ability is the same. The slot thing as a healer. I am already starved for ability slots, having to have a vamp ability on 2 bars is extremely painful. For most melee, casters, or tanks, etc. you could always slot that mist form thingie and still be alright, because that takes the place of an important survivability skill that everyone should have for emergencies. If you really want to be a vampire, it works for that.

Healers however, our survival stuff is our heals and other class abilities, not to mention group, raid and siege utility stuff.

Granted it isn't the end of the world, it still kinda sucks.

dodgehopper_ESO

I wish werewolves could slot one or two of their abilities in the human bar. Perhaps hircines bounty and the roar. In this way they could get the wolf benefits and maybe have a choice on play style. Manwolf or Wolfman.

Sandshark95

Honestly, ZOS should've just left the whole passive situation alone. It was fine the way it was before.

Maybe the WW thing did get a little out of hand, but Vampires, IMO, took an unnecessary hit. Vamps suffer from the extra fire damage and slow health regen 24/7; now they also have to sacrifice an invaluable ability slot just to benefit from one of their best passives, which previously served as perhaps the one redeeming factor that made all those countless deaths by even the littlest wisps of flame feel somewhat worth it?

UrQuan wrote: »

Why would you even be a Vampire if you're not going to slot a Vampire ability? Unlike Werewolves (currently, anyway - this won't apply after the big patch) who have benefits just for being Werewolves, with no penalties, the penalties for being a Vampire outweigh the benefits unless you're going to be using Vampire skills...

So I really fail to see how having to slot a skill is a hardship for Vampires, considering there's no point in being a Vampire anyway if you're not using the skills.

Why do Stamina Sorcerers exist? They certainly don't benefit too much from their class abilities, given that only two of them even cost stamina. Why do people choose to play as a race that doesn't exactly "fit" their build, like a Wood Elf Magicka DK or a Breton Stamina NB? Because they can and/or because they want to. Maybe some people become vampires purely because they want to be pale and have glowy red eyes. To them, there's a point and to RPers, there's certainly a point. Heck, to Twi-Hards (particularly those on Team Edward), there's most definitely a point regardless of how substantial or how many the drawbacks.

Passives are at the heart of a lot of players' builds and build decisions. Personally, I feel that if Vampires have to deal with the passive consequences of their decision to become Vamps around the clock that they should at least have some decent and constant passive benefit (even if it doesn't outweigh the negatives, any little thing helps). Having to slot an ability is yet another negative. What if there are other class/weapon abilities a vamp prefers to use? Considering there's only three in the Vampire tree to choose from, it's not hard to imagine how other skills might be of more use. Vampires shouldn't feel forced to slot an ability just to take advantage of a passive they should already be afforded for having to juggle the formidable disadvantages of the disease.

The WW situation is a tad different. There's literally no downside to being a WW while in human form; unlike Vamps, WW isn't a 24/7 deal. It almost makes sense to tie the main benefit--the stamina regen--to the Ultimate. Oh sure, my magicka DK Tank is more than a little miffed for bothering to get bit in light of this upcoming change as she has no use for the Ultimate, but my other two WWs who are stamina DPSs already had the Ultimate slotted before any change was even announced; I don't particularly care for the other Ultimate options available to my Stamplar and Stam NB, and so WW actually complements these alts quite nicely.

My ability slots on all 7 of my characters--two alts per class with the exception of one Sorcerer--are far more precious to me than my Ultimates; hence one of the reasons why the Vampire thing ticks me off more than the WW thing.

Geemarc

My problem with the changes is that the abilities have to be on both bars.

Vampires already have serious negatives, that most would say outweigh the positive passives. Forcing people to use two ability slots to maintain those passives seems like massive overkill to me.

My vamp uses devouring swarm on my back aoe bar, having to sacrifice another slot on my primary bar is going to be a problem. I guess if I stay a vampire I'll only get the passives when on one bar but keep the negatives all the time.

Sithisvoid

My question is does bat swarm count as an ability or is it strictly an ultimate and i have to slot something else?

revonine

Geemarc wrote: »

My problem with the changes is that the abilities have to be on both bars.

Vampires already have serious negatives, that most would say outweigh the positive passives. Forcing people to use two ability slots to maintain those passives seems like massive overkill to me.

My vamp uses devouring swarm on my back aoe bar, having to sacrifice another slot on my primary bar is going to be a problem. I guess if I stay a vampire I'll only get the passives when on one bar but keep the negatives all the time.

This is my issue too, make us slot an ability...fine, I actually use bat swarm and mist anyway because they're awesome abilities but PLEASE do not make us have to slot them on both bars! As good as the changes to drain are I can't see myself replacing other abilities I have on my DPS bar.

Sithisvoid wrote: »

My question is does bat swarm count as an ability or is it strictly an ultimate and i have to slot something else?

Ultimate's count with for example the Magicka Flood passive for Nightblade so I can't see why they would change that just for vamp. Though perhaps someone with access to the PTS can provide more insight.

Septimus_Magna

From a lore perspective both passives and weaknesses should be active at all times.
I like the idea of more benefits if you have more vanp skills slotted you deal more damage with vamp skills or something like that. Werewolfs on the other hand have to transform which blocks access to non-ww skills, this limit the usefulness of ww greatly imo. I think ww could work like overload so players have a choice which skills they use, only weapon skills are not accessable because you dont have a weapon equiped.

Teiji

Sithisvoid wrote: »

My question is does bat swarm count as an ability or is it strictly an ultimate and i have to slot something else?

Any Vampire ability.

Any Vampire ability fulfilling two categories, ability must be in the Vampire skill line and be a Vampire active skill.

Drain, Mist, Swarm respectively.

Battle Roar only activates on ultimate ability. Supernatural, as PTS patch notes say; any Vampire ability.

So yes, it works as long as you have any active Vampire ability slotted.

Sandshark95

Sithisvoid wrote: »

My question is does bat swarm count as an ability or is it strictly an ultimate and i have to slot something else?

Hmm. Good question. I'd like to know as well. If one of our three now mandatory skills actually doesn't count, I think I might cry. ZOS has already driven a wooden stake into each of our fragile, undead hearts, but to go so far as to limit our skill choice to the lesser of two evils instead of a cold, hateful, but in comparison, merciful three...they might as well just nail our coffins shut and be done with it.

I hope that's not the case. I also hope this change isn't actually going to happen in the first place and the devs are just waiting for the right moment to reveal that we've been punk'd with a "HA! Gotcha, Vamps! You should've seen your pale faces--priceless!" post...at least my ability to hope hasn't been nerfed. Yet.

Farorin

At least one of the vamp abilities is useful, as a WW we have it worse considering how useless our transformation is in PVP, especially considering the amount of skill points we spend on it, and the fact that it takes up a whole ultimate slot, and a crap ton of ultimate to cast.

It's not so bad... The vampire thing anyway.. At least vamps are still viable is all I am saying.

Sandshark95

Teiji wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

My question is does bat swarm count as an ability or is it strictly an ultimate and i have to slot something else?

Any Vampire ability.

Any Vampire ability fulfilling two categories, ability must be in the Vampire skill line and be a Vampire active skill.

Drain, Mist, Swarm respectively.

Battle Roar only activates on ultimate ability. Supernatural, as PTS patch notes say; any Vampire ability.

So yes, it works as long as you have any active Vampire ability slotted.

Well that's...I was going to say reassuring, but seriously it's still awful.

*Locks self away in coffin to reflect upon the meaning of life...erm...un-life...until Update 2.2 is released*

Sandshark95

@Farorin I can see your point about the WW ultimate in PvP; I honestly don't think a little buff to the transformation could hurt. Not to mention they could fix the Berseker morph visuals as to distinguish the wolf's appearance from the unmorphed version while they're at it.

No, Vamps don't have to sacrifice an ultimate slot (which I don't think is too much of an issue for WWs anyway), but they do have to sacrifice two ability slots, one per bar, in order to benefit fully from their passives. As some Vampire Healers chimed in and pointed out above, this is just a big no-no for anyone playing a healing role; those ability slots are too precious and could literally mean the difference between life or death in a group scenario. Vampire DPSs don't get off too easily either; depending on class and build, those slots could potentially be utilized more effectively from a damage dealing point of view if non-Vamp skills were slotted instead.

Vampires are still viable, but these changes make playing any role as a Vamp considerably and unnecessarily more difficult than it was before. They had enough negatives to contend with previously--no need to add more. I'd almost be willing to take a little more fire damage than they're planning to reduce it to if it means I'd be able to have the freedom I'm used to with my ability bars. At least as a WW, it's as if you were never bitten the 95% of the time you're not in wolf-form; the Ultimate might not be the most viable for every situation, but players infected with Lycanthropy can just slot a different ultimate in those situations and suffer no real loss while Vampires can't exactly turn off their Vampirism at will.

Farorin

Sandshark95 wrote: »

@Farorin I can see your point about the WW ultimate in PvP; I honestly don't think a little buff to the transformation could hurt. Not to mention they could fix the Berseker morph visuals as to distinguish the wolf's appearance from the unmorphed version while they're at it.

No, Vamps don't have to sacrifice an ultimate slot (which I don't think is too much of an issue for WWs anyway), but they do have to sacrifice two ability slots, one per bar, in order to benefit fully from their passives. As some Vampire Healers chimed in and pointed out above, this is just a big no-no for anyone playing a healing role; those ability slots are too precious and could literally mean the difference between life or death in a group scenario. Vampire DPSs don't get off too easily either; depending on class and build, those slots could potentially be utilized more effectively from a damage dealing point of view if non-Vamp skills were slotted instead.

Vampires are still viable, but these changes make playing any role as a Vamp considerably and unnecessarily more difficult than it was before. They had enough negatives to contend with previously--no need to add more. I'd almost be willing to take a little more fire damage than they're planning to reduce it to if it means I'd be able to have the freedom I'm used to with my ability bars. At least as a WW, it's as if you were never bitten the 95% of the time you're not in wolf-form; the Ultimate might not be the most viable for every situation, but players infected with Lycanthropy can just slot a different ultimate in those situations and suffer no real loss while Vampires can't exactly turn off their Vampirism at will.

It boils down to, vampires are still useful, maybe not as versatile as they used to be, but they can still work.

WWs are not useful at all. Tanking as a WW is impossible due to no taunt, healing as a WW is impossible due to no heals, and DPS as a WW is subpar considering there are better ultimates and abilities for DPS than the WW ones. As a result, the only good reason to be a WW is the stm regen, or for RP/fun reasons seeing as how they are entirely useless and not viable in any of the three roles.

You could argue that we don't have to be WWs, or that it's our choice if we transform or not, but it goes both ways, you don't have to be a vamp, you could choose to cure it.

cazlonb16_ESO

Kulvar wrote: »

People need to realize that werewolf and vampire are curses intended not as free mandatory bonuses everyone should have, but for people intending to use them for whatever reason (like fun). They're not meant to be mandatory/must have for everyone. They are supposed to stay uncommon. And these changes help that goal.

While I agree with the sentiment, I doubt the predicted outcome. At least for PvP purposes the vamp changes are a considerable buff actually and all we'll see is a shift from an even split vamps/ww and almost no non-cursed back to everyone and their mother and their sister and their aunt and their cousin being vamp, a few wws and almost no non-cursed, like at the start of the game.

Jar_Ek

The reason that people are ww is for the stamina regen to a large degree because the transformation is somewhat underwhelming. Having to slot the ultimate for that isn't great. Most vamps go for a mix of the passives and mist form, so the impact is a little lower but it now takes a slot on both bars (or both ultimates) - which is simply bad.

My solution would be to modify the fighters guild line to included a purity passive. So skilled hunter would be wrapped into all fighters guild skills by default to free a passive which would provide a benefit to non werewolves and non vampires. This could be something like a 10% regen to stamina and health, or a 5% Max stamina.

R0M2K

It seems as if @Zos answers the question, why to stay as a human?.

Dont like the answer.

GreenSoup2HoT

I already use cloudong swarm on my bar so im cool.

However for my other bar i will either have nothing or drain essence. How does the new drain essence work? Free stun with HoT?

Malediktus

Considering you can only have 5 skills + 1 ultimate on your skill bar, forced skills to make use of passives is stupid. If they would give us 2 ults and 10 skills it might be ok, but I dont like it this way.

MornaBaine

With the reduction in fire damage and the fact that they are finally supposedly getting around to fixing the fire damage reduction glyphs there probably does need to be something else to balance out being a vampire. I say that as someone who has had a vampire main since very shortly after launch and I currently slot no vampire abilities. If you're going to play a vampire you should have to BE a vampire. And same with werewolf frankly. I don't see this as a disadvantage but as a logical outcome of making the choice to play either a vampire or werewolf.

LameoveR

Vampires got a good buff.
40>25% fire damage and Drain Essense now can be used on CC-immune targets, and can be used all the time!
You can just spam it on one target all the time.
Poor pity vampires, oh god.

starkerealm

Sithisvoid wrote: »

My question is does bat swarm count as an ability or is it strictly an ultimate and i have to slot something else?

Pretty sure I actually saw Batswarm enable the passive on PTS. But, I'd have to reactivate FTC for it, to be sure.

iTzStevey

Didnt know this was for vamps aswell, if this is the case then WW should take 25% more desiese damage at ALL times. Then i would be happy with this change. It seems ZoS spend more time listening to whiners that spend more time on the forums than they do actually playing.

Halke

iTzStevey wrote: »

Didnt know this was for vamps aswell, if this is the case then WW should take 25% more desiese damage at ALL times. Then i would be happy with this change. It seems ZoS spend more time listening to whiners that spend more time on the forums than they do actually playing.

Why do people seem to keep forgetting that WWs only have negatives in wolf form and vamps have negatives all the time. Now WWs only get their benefit with ulti slotted (not even used!) and vamps get their benefits with an ability on their bar (both if you want 100% up time). So now vamps have the negatives all the time (and again fire is still way more prevalent in this game than poison/disease) and may not even have one of their main passives.

starkerealm

iTzStevey wrote: »

Didnt know this was for vamps aswell, if this is the case then WW should take 25% more desiese damage at ALL times. Then i would be happy with this change. It seems ZoS spend more time listening to whiners that spend more time on the forums than they do actually playing.

They don't take more disease damage in any form now. It's poison vulnerability. That's actually a different damage type.

mistermutiny89

The problem isn't ENTIRELY having to slot a vamp or werewolf ability but so much as it is the lack of pve end game skill viability.

It's quite clear vampires and werewolves alike require abilities to slot that actually grab an end game pve'ers attention.

Let's get creative but also keep it simple.

Think of abilities that give the innate recovery buff but also another buff for being slotted.

For example the vampires could have a move much like a nightblades' ambush or teleport strike that is a gap closer with perhaps minor maim. While slotted receive 3% magicka.

For werewolves. Spawn two small werewolves to fight at your side each attack has a 10 per cent chance to fear target. Gain 3% stamina while slotted.

This keeps in line with how we expect each creature to attack an enemy from a role playing perspective and gives a reason to slot the ability late game!

Please tell me I'm onto something?!

mistermutiny89

As for the Drain Essence "buff" it's not exactly a buff in quick fights. A magicka glass cannon has bugger all health and heaps of magicka making the drain essence attack very powerful when timed correctly. I could be down to 20 per cent health. Get the enemy with drain essence and heal to near full health plus get my stamina lost in battle back as well. This "buff" was just a slack edit as far as I can tell from patch notes but I haven't seen the morphs yet!! So who knows.

Lenikus

well, if you're not using the skills, or transformations (ww case), why the *** would you want to have cursed disease to begin with?

revonine

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

As for the Drain Essence "buff" it's not exactly a buff in quick fights. A magicka glass cannon has bugger all health and heaps of magicka making the drain essence attack very powerful when timed correctly. I could be down to 20 per cent health. Get the enemy with drain essence and heal to near full health plus get my stamina lost in battle back as well. This "buff" was just a slack edit as far as I can tell from patch notes but I haven't seen the morphs yet!! So who knows.

I need to know this too. With the meta going to shift with the damage reduction and shield nerfs having powerful heals could be the way to go for survivability instead of trying to outburst one another :P

Vizier

corwinDA wrote: »

Its a trade folks, and rightfully so. You wanted all those passive affects but then complained about fire one shotting you now they nerf the fire damage but make you at least put one "skill" on your bar. Honestly WW is getting a far worse deal I understand wanting things but not wanting to "pay" for them is childish. Honestly I get around just fine with the debuffs as they are now and I use bat swarm on my dps bar when I go pvp ill put it on my healing bar as well problem solved for me. Kightblades bat swarm is great as well on your magika build stealth-> leap-> bat swarm -> profit. Mist form/cloak-> dodge roll -> scurry away before your killed -> wussy but a living wussy

I never really worried about the fire damage. I just accepted that and the reduced health regeneration as part of the life of a vampire. If I don't slot a skill am I all of a sudden not a vampire with no negative traits? (LOL- of course not.) The speed in stealth suits my play style. I have no need to "feed" on someone in PvP and cloak replaces Mist Form for me.

The only way this becomes a good idea is if they same logic is applied to all skill lines. It's not a big thing to use batswarm instead of soul-strike or augment cloak with Mist Form. Been there done that. I found I didn't need those skills with my style of play though. This is not a balancing action by ZoS. It's just a stupid, illogical, reaction, another prohibitive restriction to builds and various styles of play. Another example that they can't seem to apply their time to fixing actual problems with the game and balance aspects that matter.