In exchange for no stamina regen while blocking

Tannus15

It seems to me that tanks are losing something (constant stamina regeneration throughout the fight) with nothing being offered in return.

Maybe this could be offset by giving tanks greatly increased stamina regen while NOT blocking, possibly as a passive from 5 peice heavy armour or 1h-shield passive?
Maybe boosting stmaina recovered by heavy attacks with 1h/shield in the same way that resto staff works?

gimpdrb14_ESO

you are on to something but i dont think tanks should be heavy attacking, maybe there bash attacks could restore stam but also make it so they cant bash while blocking?

Mojmir

I like this it's a compromise at least

redspecter23

A few more ways of restoring stam might be nice. The new 5pc set is a good start. Maybe some other sets that are designed with stamina sustain in mind would help. A stam version of the Warlock or Magicka Furnace sets would be a welcome addition.

We could have a few more abilities tailored to this playstyle. Maybe resource exchange ability that allows you to swap hp or magicka for stamina. We just need a few more outside the box type of things like this to help tanks out.

Mojmir

The 5 pc shadow walker set has me thinking, if you could have the same effect for tanks and obviously not stealth.

Tannus15

The issue I have with putting it on certain sets or skills where we trade health or magika for stamina is that it's undermining what it looks like the devs are attempting to accomplish, which is forcing Tanks to drop their block at least some of the time.

They want Tanks to not be capable of keeping block up all the time.

Since that is the goal, then to put forward ideas to the Devs I think we should keep that in mind and look for solutions that will also meet their objective.

Thymos

They want to get rid of people just blocking and spamming AOEs, IMO. Now, as a tank, we just have to stay on our toes a bit more...

paulsimonps

I have now tanked the normal versions of the two new dungeons, I tanked Hel ra hardmode, AA normal and 5 of the old vet dungeons. Only AA last boss was a problem and i only lost the agro once and I didnt die. All it takes is practice. Its a learn to play issue, give it time and learn the new mechanics

Mojmir

Basically their looking for arms wide open sacrifice and u can regain all your stats lol

Tannus15

paulsimonps wrote: »

I have now tanked the normal versions of the two new dungeons, I tanked Hel ra hardmode, AA normal and 5 of the old vet dungeons. Only AA last boss was a problem and i only lost the agro once and I didnt die. All it takes is practice. Its a learn to play issue, give it time and learn the new mechanics

Ok cool, good to know.

What kind of latency do you have? That is honestly my biggest fear (being in Australia)

Mojmir

Thats an ultimate ^^^^^:p

Forestd16b14_ESO

Again this isn't a problem if you know how to really tank. Cause real tanks know how to keep stamina up even when blocking.

paulsimonps

Tannus15 wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I have now tanked the normal versions of the two new dungeons, I tanked Hel ra hardmode, AA normal and 5 of the old vet dungeons. Only AA last boss was a problem and i only lost the agro once and I didnt die. All it takes is practice. Its a learn to play issue, give it time and learn the new mechanics

Ok cool, good to know.

What kind of latency do you have? That is honestly my biggest fear (being in Australia)

Im a European playing on NA so I have a ping of around 200 at all times

Tannus15

playing live i sit between 250 and 350 when things are not laggy

At 500+ it becomes impossible to move out of a red area before the attack hits (you get struck anyway, even if your client has you outside the red area)

DEATHquidox

paulsimonps wrote: »

I have now tanked the normal versions of the two new dungeons, I tanked Hel ra hardmode, AA normal and 5 of the old vet dungeons. Only AA last boss was a problem and i only lost the agro once and I didnt die. All it takes is practice. Its a learn to play issue, give it time and learn the new mechanics

Most of these guys are complaining mostly about pvp but honestly dk tanks in pvp are the best of both worlds they have crazy amazing dps and they take little to no damage, needs to be fixed to me and the no stam regin is good. Hell sorcs got a hella crazy nerf id say this is good.

Leonis

Thymos wrote: »

They want to get rid of people just blocking and spamming AOEs, IMO. Now, as a tank, we just have to stay on our toes a bit more...

I'm not sure of what they want. If it's true, why not making tank do nearly no damage while blocking ?

Tannus15

It would certainly help is ZOS would define the parameters of the problem.

Is it that tanking is too easy in PvE and they want to spice things up?

Is it perma-blocking in PvP?

Is it AOE damage while blocking in PvP?

It sucks being in the dark as to the motivations surrounding such a large change.

Zsymon

Tannus15 wrote: »

The issue I have with putting it on certain sets or skills where we trade health or magika for stamina is that it's undermining what it looks like the devs are attempting to accomplish, which is forcing Tanks to drop their block at least some of the time.

They want Tanks to not be capable of keeping block up all the time.

Since that is the goal, then to put forward ideas to the Devs I think we should keep that in mind and look for solutions that will also meet their objective.

That won't work as long as recovery functions as it does.

It is impossible for a tank to drop his block to regain stamina, because if you dare block during a tick and then let block go, you don't recover any stamina for 4 seconds. You'd be dropping your block for ages without even getting any stamina. To change this they would have to change the recovery tick to 0.5 second instead of 2 seconds. That way you only lose one second of stamina recovery when dropping block.

Zsymon

The biggest change to tank this update holds, is not only making it harder, but more importantly making it a lot less fun, because now all tanks are forced to have a lot of stamina, but stopped from using any abilities while tanking. All they have to do all fight is block and manage their stamina.

That is not my idea of fun.

Mojmir

Zsymon wrote: »

The biggest change to tank this update holds, is not only making it harder, but more importantly making it a lot less fun, because now all tanks are forced to have a lot of stamina, but stopped from using any abilities while tanking. All they have to do all fight is block and manage their stamina.

That is not my idea of fun.

so no PUG groups with tanks unless they got 30k stam AND health. this is gonna be bad

Kronosphere

wait so does holding block not cause the ticks to occur at all (even if the tick is at 0) or if you let go of block at say 1.9 seconds. get the stam at 2 seconds then re engage block until second 1.9 again (rinse repeat) you can be getting normal stam regen?

Personofsecrets

Tannus15 wrote: »

The issue I have with putting it on certain sets or skills where we trade health or magika for stamina is that it's undermining what it looks like the devs are attempting to accomplish, which is forcing Tanks to drop their block at least some of the time.

They want Tanks to not be capable of keeping block up all the time.

Since that is the goal, then to put forward ideas to the Devs I think we should keep that in mind and look for solutions that will also meet their objective.

While the developers do see perma-blocking as problematic, as Eric wrobel puts it tanking has been uninteractive and boring.

I therefore think 1 solution is to show the developers all of the interaction and fun tanks can have while blocking. Perhaps an additional skill on our skill bar, would be a solution to the uninteractive tank. Most trials tank bars look like this.

Deep slash, defensive stance, pierce armor, heal, armor up/shield up.

There isn't much room on that bar to fit many attacks in, but all of those skills are very justifiable due to their group synergy and increase to player survivability. Another issue is to think about what tanks should be doing with their skills. If it is to just debuff bosses and stay alive, then the above bar does very good. When we start to challenge ourselves to do more, things get interesting, but we can't challenge ourselves as much if we are going to be focused on recasting block. Finally is the issue of resource pools. Tanks tend to stack health, especially for trials, and that translates into a lesser number of skill uses than the dps or healers. For the same reason though, stacked health resource, I can't understand how the stamina regeneration nerf is to encourage new ways of playing due to it further inhibiting stamina and therefore reducing the viability of all stamina skills and abilities for a tank.

Just a few thoughts. Eric seemed to be aware that perma blocking isn't the issue for anyone that is bored. He, in the same breath, talked about blocking tanks not wanting to take huge amounts of damage from unblocked attacks. Maybe they want us to realize that not all unblocked attacks will kill us, but I'm hopeful that they realize that tanks are being caught in the catch 22 between no stamina or no blocking. In my opinion their change doesn't accomplish their goal as everyone is now scrambling to figure out how to keep up perma-block. The issue with their thinking is that enemies aren't going to start doing less damage just because Eric Wrobel is concerned that players are afraid of taking unblocked hits. This change is therefore worse than unfun. It is regressive, degenerate, and unintuitive.

Personofsecrets

DEATHquidox wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I have now tanked the normal versions of the two new dungeons, I tanked Hel ra hardmode, AA normal and 5 of the old vet dungeons. Only AA last boss was a problem and i only lost the agro once and I didnt die. All it takes is practice. Its a learn to play issue, give it time and learn the new mechanics

Most of these guys are complaining mostly about pvp but honestly dk tanks in pvp are the best of both worlds they have crazy amazing dps and they take little to no damage, needs to be fixed to me and the no stam regin is good. Hell sorcs got a hella crazy nerf id say this is good.

DK tank here. I didn't know my lava wips of 2k ea were op. In all seriousness, I do believe that there are some of us dealing good damage, but please understand that there are many tank builds and ways of tanking in pvp.

Your problem isn't with tanks per se, it is with the players who have a shield, are stacking spell damage, and very good at setting up combination kills such as proximity detonation/dragon leap/whip.

Mojmir

whenever we run trials,pledges or dsa the tank is our coordinator, he sets the cues,flow and what needs to happen. maybe the devs need to play a tank to see how it works, they make it sound like stopped for tea in mid combat.

Personofsecrets

pikey2112b14a_ESO wrote: »

whenever we run trials,pledges or dsa the tank is our coordinator, he sets the cues,flow and what needs to happen. maybe the devs need to play a tank to see how it works, they make it sound like stopped for tea in mid combat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADsxN2GfI_w

No offense to the developers, but they have some interesting editing in that video.

Rinmaethodain

DEATHquidox wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I have now tanked the normal versions of the two new dungeons, I tanked Hel ra hardmode, AA normal and 5 of the old vet dungeons. Only AA last boss was a problem and i only lost the agro once and I didnt die. All it takes is practice. Its a learn to play issue, give it time and learn the new mechanics

Most of these guys are complaining mostly about pvp but honestly dk tanks in pvp are the best of both worlds they have crazy amazing dps and they take little to no damage, needs to be fixed to me and the no stam regin is good. Hell sorcs got a hella crazy nerf id say this is good.

Someone needs to learn what a tank really is. A DPS of either stamina or magicka build that puts on sword and board is not a tank.

redspecter23 wrote: »

A few more ways of restoring stam might be nice. The new 5pc set is a good start. Maybe some other sets that are designed with stamina sustain in mind would help. A stam version of the Warlock or Magicka Furnace sets would be a welcome addition.

We could have a few more abilities tailored to this playstyle. Maybe resource exchange ability that allows you to swap hp or magicka for stamina. We just need a few more outside the box type of things like this to help tanks out.

You mean the black rose set? But sorry, a half a**ed compromise like that is unacceptable . +1 - 1 = 0 . They take away our stamina regen while blocking with this unjustified nerf based on false accustaion and they throw in a scraps like this Black Rose set? Not tomention its behind Forced PVP paywall. Oh you want me to buy from people who do IC and PVP there for TV stones? Sorry, they are the reason why tanks are getting nerfed, PVP whiners and criers who dont even know what real tank is, im not gonna pay them extortion for that set.

Not to mention with Black Rose set, tanks have to sacrifice a whole set of other gear just to make up for unjustified nerf to stamina regen.

Tannus15 wrote: »

The issue I have with putting it on certain sets or skills where we trade health or magika for stamina is that it's undermining what it looks like the devs are attempting to accomplish, which is forcing Tanks to drop their block at least some of the time.

They want Tanks to not be capable of keeping block up all the time.

Since that is the goal, then to put forward ideas to the Devs I think we should keep that in mind and look for solutions that will also meet their objective.

Board and sword, blocking with a shield and PREVENTING damage is the very basic of tank. Its the symbol of tanking. Have you considered, that devs... might... be... wrong? They are trying to push some agenda, under false reason and screw up PVE tanks in whole ESO. There is no places for compromises, when they take away everything from us (because ubernerfing something to 0 is taking away everything) and then force us to accept any scraps they will give us.

And to everyone claiming that tanking is boring and unattractive, including Mr. Eric Wrobel

Tanking is nothing near boring. Actually stripping tanks from their right to have stamina regeneration will make tanking boring after 1.7
Against popular belief, tanks do not only taunt and hold block. They also sprint to run from AOE circles, dodge roll to avoid big AOEs.

They are usually the last one standing when whole group goes down. They are capable of resing people even if attacked by multiple mobs while standing in AOE. They can survive alone long enough to charge an ultimate with high damage shield (leap or magma shell) and bring whole party back to game.

But not anymore. Thanks to ZOS "0 stamina regen while blocking" now every bit of tank stamina will be precious and spent only on blocking attacks.
No more rolling, no more dodging, no more sprinting to save party members who went down.

Only NOW thanks to "0 stamina regen while blocking" nerf, tanking will become boring and not possible for those who are not in the 1% of know every mechanic without looking at boss.

If you think its not true, and you still are a tank then you probably spent last 50 dungeon runs with your special selected group of perfect DPSes and Healers doing your perfect runs and your group chat was full of "FTC report player X on enemy Y DPS OVER 9000!!". And of course when your perfect run didnt go as planned, one dps got killed then everyone on chat started crying "wipe wipe" because its not like, a party can get up in middle of fight and recover from that situation? No, in the perfect world boss dies in 30 seconds and if not whole party suicides to restart.

Try running a 100% pug with people who never been in that dungeon, see how "boring" tanking is.
Against popular belief, tanks do not only taunt and hold block. They also sprint to run from AOE circles, dodge roll to avoid big AOEs.

They are usually the last one standing when whole group goes down. They are capable of resing people even if attacked by multiple mobs while standing in AOE. They can survive alone long enough to charge an ultimate with high damage shield (leap or magma shell) and bring whole party back to game.

But not anymore. Thanks to ZOS "0 stamina regen while blocking" now every bit of tank stamina will be precious and spent only on blocking attacks.
No more rolling, no more dodging, no more sprinting to save party members who went down.

Only NOW thanks to "0 stamina regen while blocking" nerf, tanking will become boring and not possible for those who are not in the 1% of know every mechanic without looking at boss.

Of course people who spent last 50 dungeon runs in 'near test' enviroment, with specialy selected group in top notch gear, max stats and perfect builds, and their chat composition was just spam of "player X dps 10/15/20k on mob Y". And when one person gets wiped out they dont even try to save party, they just yell "wipe, wipe everyone die" because their perfect run failed so they want to start over. Because in perfect DPS world boss dies in 30 seconds and if not something is wrong and everyone need to wipe and restart.
Of course people in those run will think tanking is boring. But before they keep repeating that lie, they will check how long they worked for that status, for the power they gained and realise that everything ran for 50/100/200 time will be boring? Maybe they look how silly they look complaining something is easy and boring after spending year of farming CP and perfecting build (or just copy pasting best build from some random online guide). Or maybe they became like that in one night? One night they are regular player, they wake up next morning and they suddenly have all that CP, best gear and suddenly they whine everything is easy and boring?

Maybe then they will take their head out of a "me, myself" bag and realise that beside him, there is a whole lot of new players and players who are currently playing and they just learn to play right now? Try running a 100% pug with people who never been in that dungeon, see how "boring" tanking is.

simontheriault1b16_ESO

I don't brag about being an elite tank but I got two different tanking build end-game (DK and NB, regularly tanking pledges, VCOA, DSA and VDSA). For what my opinion is worth, I totally hated the experience of tanking without stam regen on blocking, on the PTS tanking runs I did. If some people liked it, good for them. I'm officially retiring from tanking if that comes to live. I speak for myself but I fear that how unpopular the change seems to be, finding tanks for dungeons will be tougher on 2.1.

Dreddnawt

ZOS's Market Strategy For TESO Explained:
STEP 1: Repeatedly Nerf the entire initial population of the game while not providing fixes for game breaking bugs and exploits just long enough to chase away the entire beta and launch population who maxed the limited game content a year ago. "Why add new good things when we can take away old good things in the name of Balance?"

STEP 2: Swing another nerf bat at the heads of any players, builds, roles, or classes that show promise above others to keep those pesky overachievers in their place with the rest of the mediocre whiners. "Gutter rats, stay down when I kick you!"

STEP 3: Add in a subtle Pay to Win store starting with horribly over-priced trash to glean just a few more pennies out of whats left of your loyal fan-base. "What use is a society without capitalism to corrupt it?"

STEP 4: FINALLY release some new content - on the surface to "challenge" us - but in reality only deliver a massive grind fest "Screw You" to all crafters while at the same time completely ostracizing a pivotal group role to prevent any remaining players from being able to form viable groups for the new content. "Yoink!"

STEP 5: Watch as the game dies a horribly slow death now that we've successfully chased away anyone who ever loved TES games and the memory of ESO fades into bad jokes and ex-players reminiscing of "If they'd only done it right" just like SWTOR and LOTR.

Rinmaethodain

Lol? In exchange?

ZOS decided to cut off tanks hands with this unjustified nerf to stamina regen and now we are supposed to beg for a wooden prosthesis?

The only viable option is to roll back "0 stamina while blocking" ubernerf. If only ZOS would listen to actual tanks and people who care for PVE, but no they rather cater to PVPers DPSes. Because last quarter of 2015 is Elder DPSes Online. The only people happy with this change, DPSes who now wont have to bother with harmless tanks that were annoyhing them in PVP just because they could live for more than 3 seconds after being ganked.

In ZOS eyes tanks do not deserve anything, heck, ZOS probably doesnt even know what a tank job is. All the recent ESO live streams, ZOS teams playing all DPS/heals. Noone tanking.

This is what tanks deserve? People who dont tank are deciding on their fate? People who dont tank decide what is "good","boring" and "attractive" in tanking having no idea about tanking? People who make decisions and statements like this:


Taken from Patch notes, this is ZOS idea on how a tank type character should apparently look
"Monsters

Mages, skirmishers, and tanks have all been tweaked to have less dramatic variation. In general, mages will have less damage and more health, while tanks will have less health and more damage. "

claiming tanks are supposed to have low health and do more damage? Someone try telling me again ZOS have any idea what they are doing.

Tannus15

MaximusDargus wrote: »

"Monsters

Mages, skirmishers, and tanks have all been tweaked to have less dramatic variation. In general, mages will have less damage and more health, while tanks will have less health and more damage. "

claiming tanks are supposed to have low health and do more damage? Someone try telling me again ZOS have any idea what they are doing.

I read that as 'we are changing 'tank monsters' to have less health and do more damage than they currently do. As in, the current 'tank' monsters are too durable and don't do enough damage, while the 'mage' monsters are too weak and do too much damage, so they are getting a hp buff and a damage nerf.

It's just a tweak to monster stats.