Why is everyone going nuts about CP?

delphwind_ESO

guangui wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

People that complain about them are bad at pvp and want to try and blame CP, because they're not the problem for being bad.

Thats not entirely true.

A thousand more points makes a huge difference in a battle. If you think otherwise you are mistaken.

It does make a difference and it should!

What is the difference between time spent doing one thing over time spent doing another? If I want to progress my character through CP then jump into PvP to help ease the learning curve than what is wrong with that? If it keeps Cyrodiil populated what is the harm in giving casuals a way to leg up?

OrangeTheCat

guangui wrote: »

Do people really hate getting beat up in PvP that much that they come up with all these complicated ideas to fix CP system?

Easy fix would be to disable CP's from PvP and make em PvE exclusives. That way all these "This game isnt about skills its about outgrinding" would feel better.

Seriously. Why hasn't this been discussed? Just disable them from PvP to make it fair for everyone. If you really need all your CP to win in a battle then that's a shame. I read a post about making it a battle of skill. Well what better way than to disable them in PvP? No way complains about being carried in PvE by a 2000+ CP player but they do complain about being beat in a battle.


This would be the simplest solution instead of all these complicated ideas or "Catch up" Mechanics people want.

Anyone remember GW1 PvP? Everyone had equal stats and abilities would automatically change (for balance reasons) once you enter PvP and some abilities were just not available in PvP. Some of the best PvP in a fantasy MMO that I ever played.

guangui

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

guangui wrote: »

Like Deltia said. It doesn't matter how much talent you have if the mathematical difference between the points are drastic. The only way you'd tackle a talented player fair would be if no one had the points in PvP. At least that's what makes most sense to me. .

It is for exactly that reason that the CP system is FOR the casuals.

If I were to jump right into PvP as a fresh v14 I would be crushed for TWO reasons. #1 I have not spent the time to get really good with my character, that means I lack raw player based skill. #2 I have not had the time to grind hundreds or thousands of CP giving me a mathematical disadvantage.

Now I can either die OVER and OVER and OVER again in PvP, possibly loosing interest in the game but eventually garnering enough practical experience to become competive SKILL WISE while also gaining some CP. OR I could spend a few days (okay maybe a few weeks) grinding zombies with a partner and a hand full of xp scrolls and jump into PvP with 2k CP, learning the ropes as a fresh player, but with enough of an advantage to not die instantly.

I am not saying the system is perfect, but I do believe the CP system was put into place to give casuals another way to contribute to PvP without being cannon fodder.

guangui wrote: »

All these people who believe the are so good might no be so good if everyone was on fair grounds in PvP hahah.

This is exactly right, but serves a purpose. These days in any multiplayer game you have a large % of people that try it, play for a while then quit from discouragement because they are never able to properly learn how to play their characters because they are constantly being killed.

Giving casual (or new) players an options to spend time gaining Champion Points to help them get a leg up will encourage more and more people to join in on the PvP fun! If this system was not in place Cyrodiil would become more and more empty over time as the really great PvPers would drive out the casuals who do not find dying over and over again fun.

You make little sense. "If I were to jump right into PvP as a fresh v14 I would be crushed "

Huh? If you make to v14 without knowing how to play your class you're special. That makes no sense, you reach v14 through weeks of gaming and learning the game so how ill you "Freshly" jumped into a game?

All you said makes no sense. You want "Casuals" to grind to be a match? No.

Listen to me. Carefully.

Disabling the points in PvP would make all fight about skill and there won't be a "I play more than you advantage" but a i have more skill.

"Now I can either die OVER and OVER and OVER again in PvP, possibly loosing interest in the game but eventually garnering enough practical experience" - Again makes no sense. You are v14 you have practical experience.

"OR I could spend a few days (okay maybe a few weeks) grinding zombies with a partner and a hand full of xp scrolls and jump into PvP with 2k CP, learning the ropes as a fresh player, but with enough of an advantage to not die instantly."

What?! Spend real cash and time to gather these points to have a chance at a fair fight in PvP?? Man what kinda of BS is that.

"CP system was put into place to give casuals another way to contribute to PvP without being cannon fodder."

hahahahahahahah silly. Again, disabling the CP would make it fair for everyone and there wouldnt any cannon fodder except for the unskilled low level rookies.

"Giving casual (or new) players an options to spend time gaining Champion Points to help them get a leg up will encourage more and more people to join in on the PvP fun!" = No no no. What's with you and this ideas?

No CP in PvP= Equality for everyone.

Only skill would make a difference and or your build and strategy. Not the thousands of hours spent grinding CP.

C'mon man. Sheesh

smokes

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

in the general MMO market many people want to progress their character and reap the rewards of their time spent.

completing content == earning rewards

spending time != earning rewards

spoqster

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

A compromise I've seen suggested that could be tested would be to only allow one ability in each constellation to be active at once, rather than all eight at once.
Testing some middle ground would be good rather than removing it entirely.

Yeah, that suggestion is worth considering. But I would still prefer to keep the base CP sytem and replace all combat related buffs with non-combat related vanity and convenience buffs, such as riding skills, harvesting time, bank space, carrying capacity, weapon dyes, crafting skill buffs, titles, mounts, pets, etc.

danno8

Cherryblossom wrote: »

guangui wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!

That's not entirely true.

They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.

You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.

Working my way up

But we are currently talking about a 20% difference between Full CP and no CP. Are you suggesting that a new player can only play new content after a year of grinding? Not really a great idea, in my opinion.

In most MMO its a case of progressing through dungeon getting the stats required to do the next one, in the current situation in ESO its spamming the same ability on mobs for a year to get to do content, because they are already at Max level...

The other issue with CS is there is no longevity to it, once you hit the point of huge diminishing returns the whole system becomes obsolete, as it has finite limit which can't really be breached! So this is not progression because we can see the end....If they add more, then this once more gives an extra layer of unattainability to new players.

Whilst I love this type of progression in a Solo RPG, it does not work in MMO as you don't want be in a situation where those around you are so much more powerful than you, knowing that you can never catch them up!

It's even worse than 20%. Many players with 200-300 CP can get +25% to their main source of damage and -25% damage taken from a choice of incoming damage.Not to mention all the nice CP passives.

That is a potential 50% DPS/DtPS swing for new players. Or to put it another way "You may outplay me, but I out-CP you so I win! And you will never catch up!"

danno8

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

It is for exactly that reason that the CP system is FOR the casuals.

If I were to jump right into PvP as a fresh v14 I would be crushed for TWO reasons. #1 I have not spent the time to get really good with my character, that means I lack raw player based skill. #2 I have not had the time to grind hundreds or thousands of CP giving me a mathematical disadvantage.

Now I can either die OVER and OVER and OVER again in PvP, possibly loosing interest in the game but eventually garnering enough practical experience to become competive SKILL WISE while also gaining some CP. OR I could spend a few days (okay maybe a few weeks) grinding zombies with a partner and a hand full of xp scrolls and jump into PvP with 2k CP, learning the ropes as a fresh player, but with enough of an advantage to not die instantly.

So when you jump back in to PvP after a few weeks:

You say, "Haha! I am back now with over 200 CP!"

Longer term player says, "Haha now I have over 400 CP!"

Nothing changes.

TequilaFire

Problem with skill in PvP is I never get to use it very often, the real problem is not CP it is population imbalance and the zerg
mentality.
Almost every time you start a fight with another player 5 to 10 other players come and squash you.
No amount of CP save you from being outnumbered, and I believe people are pointing this frustration at the CS system,
not the root PvP problems.

Cherryblossom

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

This is exactly right, but serves a purpose. These days in any multiplayer game you have a large % of people that try it, play for a while then quit from discouragement because they are never able to properly learn how to play their characters because they are constantly being killed.

Giving casual (or new) players an options to spend time gaining Champion Points to help them get a leg up will encourage more and more people to join in on the PvP fun! If this system was not in place Cyrodiil would become more and more empty over time as the really great PvPers would drive out the casuals who do not find dying over and over again fun.

I can only assume you wrote this on a rant, without actually thinking about the actual situation...

You are aware that People who are not Casual, are gaining CP quicker so have more thus have greater power than the Casuals you mention, which you now want to grind mobs which takes no skill and teaches you nothing! A computer program can effectively grind without human intevention, there were trains of them at launch....

So in you own words because these Casuals cannot compete they will leave.

spoqster

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1

I like that idea. Would have made veteran levels 0 issue for me as well as I could just play the single player content at my leisure and level up without a care while still being able to go to Cyrodiil and not be determined as fodder regardless of how well I play.

This has it's place in some games, but in the general MMO market many people want to progress their character and reap the rewards of their time spent.

What you are referring to has already been done, see GW2, or pretty much any FPS.

Vertical gear progression and any sort of alternate advancement that can be done outside of PvP will always change the PvP battlefield. Some will not like it, but the general populace will embrace it because it will help keep the PvP battle areas alive and populated with us dirty casuals.

So the true multiplayer games do not have vertical progression. Hmmh, I wonder why. Maybe ESO can borrow from their mechanics? Learn from others, stand on the shoulder of giants, etc? Wink Wink!

And yes GW2 has already done it. And everyone who I have ever talked to who played GW2 absolutely loved GW2 PvP.

What ESO and the other MMORPGs try to do, is to marry a single and a multiplayer game. You can't. You can't marry a pig and a horse either. They don't make babies. And nobody tries do that again and again either.

So let's please forget this idea of wanting to marry a multiplayer game with a vertical progression single player game. Try to marry the multiplayer game to a horizontal progression single player game instead, and we'll have many beautiful pig horses.

Tolmos

danno8 wrote: »

a fresh player, but with enough of an advantage to not die instantly.

So when you jump back in to PvP after a few weeks:

You say, "Haha! I am back now with over 200 CP!"

Longer term player says, "Haha now I have over 400 CP!"

Nothing changes.[/quote]

You just hit the nail on the head. And a new player who starts just then? Is 400 points behind forever. And a new player who starts when that one is at 400 points? He will be 800 points behind the first. On and on.

Computer driven handicap against new players, because for some reason the developers thing the older players are incapable and need a stat driven advantage to help them win in PvP.

guangui

TequilaFire wrote: »

Problem with skill in PvP is I never get to use it very often, the real problem is not CP it is population imbalance and the zerg
mentality.
Almost every time you start a fight with another player 5 to 10 other players come and squash you.
No amount of CP save you from being outnumbered, and I believe people are pointing this frustration at the CS system,
not the root PvP problems.

I agree but you know very well that even with your skill in a 1v1 VS someone with a significant amount of CP you will find yourself beat.

Its the way it is. The being gang beat just makes it worse lol

TequilaFire

guangui wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Problem with skill in PvP is I never get to use it very often, the real problem is not CP it is population imbalance and the zerg
mentality.
Almost every time you start a fight with another player 5 to 10 other players come and squash you.
No amount of CP save you from being outnumbered, and I believe people are pointing this frustration at the CS system,
not the root PvP problems.

I agree but you know very well that even with your skill in a 1v1 VS someone with a significant amount of CP you will find yourself beat.

Its the way it is. The being gang beat just makes it worse lol

True but you learn to pick your 1v1 carefully and if I get beat I look at it as a learning challenge to find a combo that will beat that person or go level up some more CP /player level or whatever.

BrosephMcDudeBro

DenMoria wrote: »

Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »

The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.

So what are you? Some basement troll that has nothing else in their life except playing ESO? I'll admit that I'm casual (about 35 hours a week). Sorry if I have a life outside of playing a video game (you know, going outside, having a job, a relationship, some hobbies, friends that actually exist somewhere other than the ether).

I don't even know what "Champion Points" are, and don't really care. On the day that I take a game so seriously that I criticize someone else for not devoting their entire life to the game, I think I'll just give up gaming completely.

Sigh, it's people like you that make me sick. Nobody cares about how sweet your life is. Calling someone out for spending more time than you in an MMO in efforts to prove a point about fairness is myopic. Look at your surroundings: you (presumably) live in a capitalistic environment where people are rewarded for work. You want to know why capitalism produces the most stable societies in the world? Because, surprise, it works! If we were to remove the incentive in this game to work for improvements to your character, many players would leave the game -- or at the very least, play less and less -- because there would be no reason to work harder to achieve the same as someone who works less. You know what this would lead to? You guessed it, lower server populations which would eventually stagnate this game to an early demise because it would dissuade new players from picking up this game (this effect is magnified in MMOs where the size of the playerbase has a major impact on gameplay). It is unfortunate that the vocal minority can ultimately have such an impact on shaping a game's destiny. Please, please, please spare us your demands for ZOS to step in and institute a nanny-state where everybody is equal because any inequalities, whether or not they are based on work ethic, are an affront to human dignity!

Drakoleon

Killing mobs 2h a day in order to increase CP it's not "Playing the game" ...it's BS game!!!! It's boring and childish

I agree CP system should be excluded from PVP....till then i won't step in cyro

guangui

TequilaFire wrote: »

guangui wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Problem with skill in PvP is I never get to use it very often, the real problem is not CP it is population imbalance and the zerg
mentality.
Almost every time you start a fight with another player 5 to 10 other players come and squash you.
No amount of CP save you from being outnumbered, and I believe people are pointing this frustration at the CS system,
not the root PvP problems.

I agree but you know very well that even with your skill in a 1v1 VS someone with a significant amount of CP you will find yourself beat.

Its the way it is. The being gang beat just makes it worse lol

True but you learn to pick your 1v1 carefully and if I get beat I look at it as a learning challenge to find a combo that will beat that person or go level up some more CP /player level or whatever.

yeah that's a good view on it but you shouldn't be at a disadvantage because you have a job and life you know? It should fair and if he has better skill then you lose. But losing because you dont drop your job and play all day is frustrating and might shy you away from pvp

TequilaFire

You know you do earn CP by playing the game/pvp, you don't have to grind.
Unless you consider playing the game grinding.

spoqster

BrosephMcDudeBro wrote: »

DenMoria wrote: »

Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »

The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.

So what are you? Some basement troll that has nothing else in their life except playing ESO? I'll admit that I'm casual (about 35 hours a week). Sorry if I have a life outside of playing a video game (you know, going outside, having a job, a relationship, some hobbies, friends that actually exist somewhere other than the ether).

I don't even know what "Champion Points" are, and don't really care. On the day that I take a game so seriously that I criticize someone else for not devoting their entire life to the game, I think I'll just give up gaming completely.

Sigh, it's people like you that make me sick. Nobody cares about how sweet your life is. Calling someone out for spending more time than you in an MMO in efforts to prove a point about fairness is myopic. Look at your surroundings: you (presumably) live in a capitalistic environment where people are rewarded for work. You want to know why capitalism produces the most stable societies in the world? Because, surprise, it works! If we were to remove the incentive in this game to work for improvements to your character, many players would leave the game -- or at the very least, play less and less -- because there would be no reason to work harder to achieve the same as someone who works less. You know what this would lead to? You guessed it, lower server populations which would eventually stagnate this game to an early demise because it would dissuade new players from picking up this game (this effect is magnified in MMOs where the size of the playerbase has a major impact on gameplay). It is unfortunate that the vocal minority can ultimately have such an impact on shaping a game's destiny. Please, please, please spare us your demands for ZOS to step in and institute a nanny-state where everybody is equal because any inequalities, whether or not they are based on work ethic, are an affront to human dignity!

Sigh!

You are making unwarranted assumptions. I don't think people would play the game less without vertical progression, I think they will play more.

• People don't watch Game of Thrones because they get a new washing machine when they finish the season. They watch it because it is fun to watch. That's how quests should work.
• People don't go to basketball practice 4 times a week because they get a pair of shoes that let's them jump higher every day. They go to improve their skill.
• Grinding is not work as in practice. It's just a waste of time.

You say that players need rewards if you want to keep them engaged. You are absolutely right!

• Give them titles.
• Give them new skills, that are different but not more powerful.
• Give them new gear, that is different but not more powerful.
• Give them vanity items.
• Give them convenience buffs.

Man, there are so many creative ways of rewarding players in a healthy way. Every game that rewards players with power in exchange for time itself will fall apart sooner than later.

Tolmos

TequilaFire wrote: »

or go level up some more CP /player level or whatever.

This is what it will really come down to. My numbers are smaller than their numbers, so I need to go get more numbers. Except, they also will go get more numbers. So when we meet: my numbers will still be smaller than their numbers.

The goal of CP is to reduce the amount of skill needed in the game by supplementing it with more numbers.

Tolmos

spoqster wrote: »

You are making unwarranted assumptions. I don't think people would play the game less without vertical progression, I think they will play more.

• People don't watch Game of Thrones because they get a new washing machine when they finish the season. They watch it because it is fun to watch. That's how quests should work.
• People don't go to basketball practice 4 times a week because they get a pair of shoes that let's them jump higher every day. They go to improve their skill.
• Grinding is not work as in practice. It's just a waste of time.

You say that players need rewards if you want to keep them engaged. You are absolutely right!

• Give them titles.
• Give them new skills, that are different but not more powerful.
• Give them new gear, that is different but not more powerful.
• Give them vanity items.
• Give them convenience buffs.

Man, there are so many creative ways of rewarding players in a healthy way. Every game that rewards players with power in exchange for time itself will fall apart sooner than later.

If only I had an army of game developers shaped in your base image...

BrosephMcDudeBro

You are making unwarranted assumptions. I don't think people would play the game less without vertical progression, I think they will play more.

• People don't watch Game of Thrones because they get a new washing machine when they finish the season. They watch it because it is fun to watch. That's how quests should work.
• People don't go to basketball practice 4 times a week because they get a pair of shoes that let's them jump higher every day. They go to improve their skill.
• Grinding is not work as in practice. It's just a waste of time.

You say that players need rewards if you want to keep them engaged. You are absolutely right!

• Give them titles.
• Give them new skills, that are different but not more powerful.
• Give them new gear, that is different but not more powerful.
• Give them vanity items.
• Give them convenience buffs.

Man, there are so many creative ways of rewarding players in a healthy way. Every game that rewards players with power in exchange for time itself will fall apart sooner than later.[/quote]

Hmm, it appears that you are the one making unwarranted assumptions (in addition to presumptuously acting as the voice of the entire playerbase)! So I will take the time to rebut each of your flawed points respectively:

1) You're assuming that nobody finds grinding enjoyable. Personally, I'd rather grind and hone my rotations than run around looking for 4 different plants to return to an NPC. Heretofore, the quests in this game (through Cadwell's Gold/Craglorn) have been humdrum and monotonous.

2) This line of reasoning is flawed unless you are also advocating for the removal of gear progression too. If you choose to go that route, then you risk stripping an astronomical a major incentive to question (gear rewards), ultimately making questing less rewarding and, as such, less fun or even pointless (in my opinion). What we are left with is a game where everybody is the same level (why even have levels at this point?), the same class, in the same outfit, and with the same weapons because, following your basketball analogy, these are all things that allow a player to "jump higher every day."

3) See: bullet 1.

===================

1) Titles/cosmetics have no impact on gameplay which is what we are talking about here. I personally have no interest in them, but others might. They are certainly not enough for me to work towards.
2) Different how?
3) Id.
4) See 1.
5) Convenience buffs? What does that even mean? I get a buff that spawns a mining node right next to the blacksmithing station? Now THERE'S an idea I can get behind.

TequilaFire

guangui wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

guangui wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Problem with skill in PvP is I never get to use it very often, the real problem is not CP it is population imbalance and the zerg
mentality.
Almost every time you start a fight with another player 5 to 10 other players come and squash you.
No amount of CP save you from being outnumbered, and I believe people are pointing this frustration at the CS system,
not the root PvP problems.

I agree but you know very well that even with your skill in a 1v1 VS someone with a significant amount of CP you will find yourself beat.

Its the way it is. The being gang beat just makes it worse lol

True but you learn to pick your 1v1 carefully and if I get beat I look at it as a learning challenge to find a combo that will beat that person or go level up some more CP /player level or whatever.

yeah that's a good view on it but you shouldn't be at a disadvantage because you have a job and life you know? It should fair and if he has better skill then you lose. But losing because you dont drop your job and play all day is frustrating and might shy you away from pvp

It's about balance in your life, I might want to be a pro at golf but because of family or job I could probably not do that either.
So everyone needs to be happy at what they can achieve and remember that maybe having success at other things might just be more important than a video game.

There is always someone better or ahead of you in most things, doesn't make you less than them.

delphwind_ESO

guangui wrote: »

C'mon man. Sheesh

We apparently have different opinions of what a casual player does ... maybe, just maybe there are more than two types of players.

What I was trying to say, and the point that you blatantly missed was that CP's give players another option to sink their time into to be competitive.

And weeks to reach v14? Have you leveled recently? PvE builds generally are completely different from PvP builds, so yes if you jump into PvP at v14 you will be pretty much a newbie at your class.

CPs give players the ability to at least gain some sort of edge in combat and gives them time to learn how to PvP without getting insta-gibbed.

I believe you are looking for a horizontal progression type of game, this is a vertical progression game, time spent = skill, just like, skill = skill.

guangui wrote: »

What?! Spend real cash and time to gather these points to have a chance at a fair fight in PvP?? Man what kinda of BS is that.

I love that out of everything I said, took out the one thing you did not agree with and ignored the rest. Yes spending $ for a xp scroll to help level if you are grinding. Getting several hundred CPs does not take much time at all, there are loads of grinding guides that people follow, xp scrolls simply speed up this process, they are not mandatory. Not everyone is opposed to purchasing these types of things, but apparently you are.

rb2001

Why do people want an advancement system, but not want people to advance past THEM?!

What is the point of an advancement system where we all advance at the same rate just so our feelings don't get hurt?!

delphwind_ESO

spoqster wrote: »

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1

I like that idea. Would have made veteran levels 0 issue for me as well as I could just play the single player content at my leisure and level up without a care while still being able to go to Cyrodiil and not be determined as fodder regardless of how well I play.

This has it's place in some games, but in the general MMO market many people want to progress their character and reap the rewards of their time spent.

What you are referring to has already been done, see GW2, or pretty much any FPS.

Vertical gear progression and any sort of alternate advancement that can be done outside of PvP will always change the PvP battlefield. Some will not like it, but the general populace will embrace it because it will help keep the PvP battle areas alive and populated with us dirty casuals.

So the true multiplayer games do not have vertical progression. Hmmh, I wonder why. Maybe ESO can borrow from their mechanics? Learn from others, stand on the shoulder of giants, etc? Wink Wink!

And yes GW2 has already done it. And everyone who I have ever talked to who played GW2 absolutely loved GW2 PvP.

What ESO and the other MMORPGs try to do, is to marry a single and a multiplayer game. You can't. You can't marry a pig and a horse either. They don't make babies. And nobody tries do that again and again either.

So let's please forget this idea of wanting to marry a multiplayer game with a vertical progression single player game. Try to marry the multiplayer game to a horizontal progression single player game instead, and we'll have many beautiful pig horses.

Have you seen the population of GW2 lately? that game is dying a terrible death. And yes I have spoken to many PvPers from GW2 and they have a serious love/hate relationship with it.

If you really want a horizontal progression pvp game then by all means go play guild wars, if you want a vertical progression game, stick around, because they will not be reinventing the wheel here anytime soon.

There is a large number of people that are interested in vertical progression, there is also a large group (maybe jsut as large) that would prefer their PvP to be basically clone vs. clone with little to no variance between the players so there is no advantages. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am.

Bottom line here is that the train has left the station and there is no stopping it. ZOS decided before beta even started that this was going to be a vertical progression game based on time spent, if you don't like that, there is a door around here somewhere you can leave through.

spoqster

BrosephMcDudeBro wrote: »

Hmm, it appears that you are the one making unwarranted assumptions (in addition to presumptuously acting as the voice of the entire playerbase)! So I will take the time to rebut each of your flawed points respectively:

1) You're assuming that nobody finds grinding enjoyable. Personally, I'd rather grind and hone my rotations than run around looking for 4 different plants to return to an NPC. Heretofore, the quests in this game (through Cadwell's Gold/Craglorn) have been humdrum and monotonous.

2) This line of reasoning is flawed unless you are also advocating for the removal of gear progression too. If you choose to go that route, then you risk stripping an astronomical a major incentive to question (gear rewards), ultimately making questing less rewarding and, as such, less fun or even pointless (in my opinion). What we are left with is a game where everybody is the same level (why even have levels at this point?), the same class, in the same outfit, and with the same weapons because, following your basketball analogy, these are all things that allow a player to "jump higher every day."

3) See: bullet 1.

===================

1) Titles/cosmetics have no impact on gameplay which is what we are talking about here. I personally have no interest in them, but others might. They are certainly not enough for me to work towards.
2) Different how?
3) Id.
4) See 1.
5) Convenience buffs? What does that even mean? I get a buff that spawns a mining node right next to the blacksmithing station? Now THERE'S an idea I can get behind.

Thanks @BrosephMcDudeBro for actually presenting arguments. It's an interesting change to most of the other comments. So let me get to work.

1. I am happy for you that you find grinding enjoyable. But what you call grinding, I call practice. You refer to honing your rotations. I do that while playing PVP, and when I went questing I killed more mobs than I had to, to do the exact same thing. But please don't mix it up with grinding. Grinding, AFAIK is the process of doing repetitive content in order to farm XP. So you practice while you grind, but that doesn't mean that practicing and grinding are the same thing.
2. Yes, some of the quests in ESO are monotonous fetch quests. I hate those too. But that doesn't mean quests have to be bad in general. ESO has a lot of great quests and other games like Skyrim and the Witcher series have an even higher ratio. To me questing is what I do after playing PVP or PVE (raids/dungeons). It's like popping over to netflix, just a bit more interactive - or at least that's what it should be. I don't need rewards from it, I'll do it for the story if the story is good enough. And I have a gut feeling that questing would be more popular in this game if it didn't offer rewards or be a necessary part of progression. It sounds counter-intuitive, but by lowering the expectations (no rewards) and decoupling it from the progression system, more and more people would start doing it for fun, and would enjoy most of the stories, because they're not rushing through it. Also they would be doing it at times when they're baked anyway, the same times when you're in the mood to watch TV. If you'd be forced to watch TV when you are in a competitive PVP mood, you wouldn't enjoy Game of Thrones either. On top of that I'd get rid of all fetch quests.
3. The reason for my phrasing in this bullet is the unvoiced assumption that the time it take to grind from v1 to v14 is a lot more than it takes to practice your rotation. So while the first few vet levels will still be good practice, the amount of learning you get from the last vet levels will be minimal.

And as to the reward bullets:

• Boy was I proud when I could put on Boethia's Skythe for the first time, after a very challenging evening in VDSA. And I still want to get that Former Emperor title! :-)
• Here is the main rub. Let's assume we really take out the levels, or, as I would prefer, set the level cap to 20. You are mistaken that all players will run around in the same gear and do the same things. There are different roles to play and different playstyles. This is what will make the game truly interesting, to be able to choose from different skills which are not necessarily more powerful than others. ESO does this very well already. We have a lot of skills and the class system is quite balanced. One Dragonknight player prefers to go super tanky, with RS, GDB and S/B, while another will play the DK as powerful firecaster with a destro staff. Now if they made this even better, people would be quite happy about it. People will go bonkers when they add Spellcrafting and other new skill lines to the game.
• The gear progression system is already quite good in ESO, except for a few rubs. Problems I see are that crafting rewards time invested over skill, you loot too much crap, you take too long to reach max level so that everything you get before is worthless, there are too few viable endgame sets since 1.6, gear progression is too hectic in the lower levels, they destroyed hybrid builds in 1.6 so that many cool sets are now worthless, etc. But all in all it is quite good already.
• Vanity: I agree, not my cup of tea. But many people like it.
• Possible convenience buffs are: Improved riding skills, faster harvesting times, looting more gold, better crafting skills, more bank space, more carrying capacity, more guild slots, more character slots, free porting and so on. Pretty much everything that saves you some time, makes the game more convenient to play, but does not make you more powerful in battle.

technohic

Oh my god, you guys just go wayy too far in arguing. It's all about everyones own goals and what they want out of the game. From ZOS perspective; they really need to think about if they want to cater to whatever population who wants everyone else to just accept being lower on the totem pole, or if they want to be more inclusive because there will not be many of those lower totem players for very long.

Sure; to start if we look at the past 3 months and see say the top grinders with 500 CPs and say the average with 100-200; those average ones are going to be dis-enfranchised, but maybe the ones with 400 CPs don't see the problem. Well in another 3 months, that 100 CP difference between the same people just became 200 CP. Another 3 months 300. Its going to snowball is all I am saying. And the new players? Wow. By the time they figure out whats going on, they will be a ways into the game and they are falling behind before they ever start.

Not sure why people who have them would be upset with people being able to participate without any against others without any. If its because you want to experience the fruit of your labor being greater than everyone else; that is going to end much faster if the opt out is to quit the game rather than just participate separately.

Emma_Overload

Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »

The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.

While it's true that some Casuals are complaining for the reason you stated, it's also true that some Elites are complaining, too. Why? I have a theory:

Elites don't like the CS because of its egalitarian nature. ANYBODY can grind CP if they put in the time and effort, which means that anybody can enjoy the power gains that come from lots of CP. Elites realize that some (much?) of their historical advantage comes from their access to exclusive content by virtue of their membership in a guild. Not just any guild, either, like the trading guilds I belong to. I'm talking about that handful of "top" guilds that have stacked the leaderboards with their pals and even their alts. No matter how hard or long he plays, some random solo grinder is never going to see the backside of Trials or Veteran DSA, will never get a Master's weapon or other BOP gear, will never get to participate in a shady Emperor swap or do any of the other things that privileged "insiders" do to boost their power.

Personally, I think the Champion System is great because it gives me a way to progress (and empower!) my characters that is completely under my control. I like being able to write my own destiny!

BrosephMcDudeBro

I must admit, I appreciate you taking the time to flesh out your beliefs so I could better understand them; it definitely helps for a more productive discourse (a rare event on an online medium). Now that I see what you were trying to say more clearly, I will only address the points where I disagree.

1) I also PVP and practice my rotations there. I don't think grinding and PVPing are mutually exclusive for honing your skills and rotations. I think each is important for different reasons. In PVP, practice is essential to improving on how you fight against another human. In PVE, practice (or as I call it grinding) helps me master my rotations and optimize my build for end-game PVE content. You see, each has their place, if we are talking about honing skills, since AI and PVP manifest entirely different fighting styles.

2) In theory, questing should be infinitely more engaging than it is in ESO, or most every other MMO under the sun. I have to draw a hard line here. I know this is only one man's opinion, but I would MUCH rather grind than quest for level advancement. The vast majority of the quests are hackneyed and repetitive, rewarding an infinitesimal amount of experience/loot when compared with grinding. We can say until we are blue in the face that quests do not have to be bad, and I agree with you, but what we have seen time-and-time-again from ZOS is much less of a commitment to quality than a commitment to quantity. Therefore, it's hard for me to accept that this will change. This is why I think the second component of your point (decoupling of rewards/gear progression) is incorrect. Now if they were able to reinvent the proverbial wheel and come up with stimulating quests that do not feel like a chore, I would agree with you whole-heartedly, but as it stands I think that most players quest merely as an alternate means of generating xp and the fun-factor, alone, is minuscule and unlikely to draw players if incentives were removed.

3) Honestly, I got from VR 1-6 in 5 days. Then I got from VR 6-14 in 1.5 days. Notice the discrepancy in time? This was because I was inefficiently managing my time. I found a better spot and fixed the situation. Anybody can do this and I believe that the built-in diminishing xp returns system as you out-level enemy mobs, in fact, best incentivizes people to explore the world for better options and new monsters! Also, I think it's completely the opposite of what you suggest when you mention the later VR ranks and reduced usefulness of the learning you receive. Once you get to the later VR levels you get access to late-game content that is worlds different from anything you've experienced (DSA/etc) up until that point, which makes it inherently useful to practice, particularly if you are interested in maxing your DPS efficiency for the leader-boards. "A lot of people never use their initiative because no-one told them to." - Banksy


==========================================

I agree with everything else, except for your belief that diversity will remain if the playing field was equalized. I think that making everything equal (i.e, removing CP and a deep system of xp-based leveling) would yield the same, if not more constrained, results. I think the majority of players want to be as strong as they can possibly be and there will always be optimal builds that players flock to. That's the human condition. Why be less when I can be more? In a perfect world, where perfect games are created by perfect programmers with perfect balance, your idea is dead-on. But, as we have seen, we do not live in such a magical place. As evidenced by the countless QQ threads, perfect balance is a farce and by removing the systems in place that allow for greater customization of your character (CP), we will see more and more people move to the flavor of the week builds which will inevitably be nerfed because of more QQing, perpetuating a vicious cycle ad infinitum.

Acrolas

spoqster wrote: »

Grinding is not work as in practice. It's just a waste of time.

It would be a waste of time if it didn't give you experience.

Anything that gives you a small experience gain in exchange for time spent is technically practice.

But more accurately, it's field experience. Gaining experience by going out and doing something you were trained to do.

Military combat maneuvers are technically grinding, because they're repetitive and tedious. But, again, field experience. I think it's better to gain CP doing whatever experience-gaining activity I want, rather than having to go through four-hour combat maneuvers in Cyrodill every time I wanted to earn one.