Why is everyone going nuts about CP?

Morvul

delphwind_ESO wrote: »

Now I can either die OVER and OVER and OVER again in PvP, possibly loosing interest in the game but eventually garnering enough practical experience to become competive SKILL WISE while also gaining some CP. OR I could spend a few days (okay maybe a few weeks) grinding zombies with a partner and a hand full of xp scrolls and jump into PvP with 2k CP, learning the ropes as a fresh player, but with enough of an advantage to not die instantly.

now, even if we assume that it were possible to earn 2k CP in "a couple of weeks"... what makes you believe the hardcore players are not in a better position to earn those 2k CP than the casuals?!?

seriously, we need to LoL button back!

Xantaria

Bad idea.

You know there are leaderboards in PvE aswell? Just disable it completely .

Love_Chunks

All these thoeries suggestion and presumtions... How about this scenario: you get thrashed in pvp, do you ask the player who killed you how many CP they had? Are you going to do that everytime you die in cyro? Suppose someone actually repsonds and has less CP than you. Was it skill then? In the opposite situation does more CP mean they only won because of that?

This is the problem I have with detractors you have no real measuring stick. All you have is asssumptions base solely on numbers and no gameplay based eveidence validate all these claims. Theres no way to know how many CP other players have unless you take the time to actually ask them and thus CP ends up being a scapegoat for dying in cyro.

sadownik

Love_Chunks wrote: »

All these thoeries suggestion and presumtions... How about this scenario: you get thrashed in pvp, do you ask the player who killed you how many CP they had? Are you going to do that everytime you die in cyro? Suppose someone actually repsonds and has less CP than you. Was it skill then? In the opposite situation does more CP mean they only won because of that?

This is the problem I have with detractors you have no real measuring stick. All you have is asssumptions base solely on numbers and no gameplay based eveidence validate all these claims. Theres no way to know how many CP other players have unless you take the time to actually ask them and thus CP ends up being a scapegoat for dying in cyro.

So lets say Z. will implement possibility to see cp number. What then?

spoqster

BrosephMcDudeBro wrote: »

I must admit, I appreciate you taking the time to flesh out your beliefs so I could better understand them; it definitely helps for a more productive discourse (a rare event on an online medium). Now that I see what you were trying to say more clearly, I will only address the points where I disagree.

1) I also PVP and practice my rotations there. I don't think grinding and PVPing are mutually exclusive for honing your skills and rotations. I think each is important for different reasons. In PVP, practice is essential to improving on how you fight against another human. In PVE, practice (or as I call it grinding) helps me master my rotations and optimize my build for end-game PVE content. You see, each has their place, if we are talking about honing skills, since AI and PVP manifest entirely different fighting styles.

2) In theory, questing should be infinitely more engaging than it is in ESO, or most every other MMO under the sun. I have to draw a hard line here. I know this is only one man's opinion, but I would MUCH rather grind than quest for level advancement. The vast majority of the quests are hackneyed and repetitive, rewarding an infinitesimal amount of experience/loot when compared with grinding. We can say until we are blue in the face that quests do not have to be bad, and I agree with you, but what we have seen time-and-time-again from ZOS is much less of a commitment to quality than a commitment to quantity. Therefore, it's hard for me to accept that this will change. This is why I think the second component of your point (decoupling of rewards/gear progression) is incorrect. Now if they were able to reinvent the proverbial wheel and come up with stimulating quests that do not feel like a chore, I would agree with you whole-heartedly, but as it stands I think that most players quest merely as an alternate means of generating xp and the fun-factor, alone, is minuscule and unlikely to draw players if incentives were removed.

3) Honestly, I got from VR 1-6 in 5 days. Then I got from VR 6-14 in 1.5 days. Notice the discrepancy in time? This was because I was inefficiently managing my time. I found a better spot and fixed the situation. Anybody can do this and I believe that the built-in diminishing xp returns system as you out-level enemy mobs, in fact, best incentivizes people to explore the world for better options and new monsters! Also, I think it's completely the opposite of what you suggest when you mention the later VR ranks and reduced usefulness of the learning you receive. Once you get to the later VR levels you get access to late-game content that is worlds different from anything you've experienced (DSA/etc) up until that point, which makes it inherently useful to practice, particularly if you are interested in maxing your DPS efficiency for the leader-boards. "A lot of people never use their initiative because no-one told them to." - Banksy


==========================================

I agree with everything else, except for your belief that diversity will remain if the playing field was equalized. I think that making everything equal (i.e, removing CP and a deep system of xp-based leveling) would yield the same, if not more constrained, results. I think the majority of players want to be as strong as they can possibly be and there will always be optimal builds that players flock to. That's the human condition. Why be less when I can be more? In a perfect world, where perfect games are created by perfect programmers with perfect balance, your idea is dead-on. But, as we have seen, we do not live in such a magical place. As evidenced by the countless QQ threads, perfect balance is a farce and by removing the systems in place that allow for greater customization of your character (CP), we will see more and more people move to the flavor of the week builds which will inevitably be nerfed because of more QQing, perpetuating a vicious cycle ad infinitum.

Yeah, I have to admit that I get carried away sometimes and write about game design in general, rather than specific suggestions for ESO. So with respect to the quests and the rewards you may be right. But even in ESO I see good examples for my suggestion. In general quests don't give you rewards unless you want to count that green crap that we get as reward. So the only quests that give meaningful rewards are the main story and main zone quests as they reward skill points. But I would have done those anyway because they were generally good. And in terms of XP quests don't reward enough, so that it is still much faster to grind. So in essence we already have the scenario that quests give no rewards. My idea is that if they did not reward anything and were not tied to progression, people would not compare them to grinding and would not rush through them. I believe making them optional will result in a different perception, where players will see them as a luxury entertainment product rather than a chore. It happened to me. When I was first starting, players told me how much they like the Faolchu quest or how much they liked the final battle and so on. And when I went back to get the skill points from the main zone quests I did stumble over some quests where I thought "Ha, that quest. I liked that one." and then went and did it again for fun, without any expectation of a reward.

As with balance, I agree that there will never be perfect balance, but I don't think there has to be. You just need to get it as good as possible. In the end the quality of a game like this is by how well the developers get the item balance, the class balance, the pvp balance, and so on. That's the heart of the game, and doing this well is the true art of being a game designer. Also, you can constantly adjust it, like they do now. They have all the data, so they know which skills and item sets are not being used. So they can go back to the drawing board and change these skills and items, as they have done before, or create new skills and items.

That's one of the reasons why I like softcaps. It allows for more build diversity. Before 1.5 I could run a healing tank that countered lower resistances and overall less tankiness with good healing power. Now after 1.6 this doesn't work so well anyomre, because it's more efficient to max out my tankiness. In general, the less a game rewards min/maxing, the richer the horizontal item progression system will be. Essentially, you'll want to create a system in which mixed characters can be as good as having completely separate roles, as in having a group of 4 tanky damage healers be as effective as a group with one tank, one healer and two dds.

Players will love that, because it gives them more freedom and does not force them into roles they don't fully want to fill out. Everyone could pick their very own spot on the attack/support slider.


When it comes to ESO, I don't even care so much if they disable the CS in PvP or not. In the end a good commander is more important than the highest damage. They just have to make sure that it's balanced so that single players can't take out 15 players by themselves, even if they are emperor.

But from a more academic perspective the decision to add this vertical Champion System to an already too vertical progression system is more than questionable.

Rex-Umbra

On Console its kinda fricked because of transfers. I had an entire vet group get wiped by one sorc using heavy attacks that would not die. It's causing players to quit left and right.

nimander99

It's not actually an issue, people literally are just repeating what they've heard others say as their own idea. The math has been in on this for quite a while, people even played on pts with the full 3600 CP's, and it's not the power curve that people are making it out to be.

Love_Chunks

sadownik wrote: »

Love_Chunks wrote: »

All these thoeries suggestion and presumtions... How about this scenario: you get thrashed in pvp, do you ask the player who killed you how many CP they had? Are you going to do that everytime you die in cyro? Suppose someone actually repsonds and has less CP than you. Was it skill then? In the opposite situation does more CP mean they only won because of that?

This is the problem I have with detractors you have no real measuring stick. All you have is asssumptions base solely on numbers and no gameplay based eveidence validate all these claims. Theres no way to know how many CP other players have unless you take the time to actually ask them and thus CP ends up being a scapegoat for dying in cyro.

So lets say Z. will implement possibility to see cp number. What then?

Lol highly unlikely cus mursion. But in the event they did people would STILL use it as a scapegoat whilst not giving 2 ****s when they roflstomp noobs with fewer CP. You all say it's about balancing it out for noobs but really is about your own self satifaction.

TequilaFire

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

On Console its kinda fricked because of transfers. I had an entire vet group get wiped by one sorc using heavy attacks that would not die. It's causing players to quit left and right.

Funny I play every night and it is jam packed with players.
Also most groups I join there are very few high level vets, and the ones that are are vet transfers themselves.
As a transfer I try to teach the group how to defend their key keeps and how emperor works etc.
I was surprised so many don't understand how Cyro works.
But I am off topic.

nimander99

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

On Console its kinda fricked because of transfers. I had an entire vet group get wiped by one sorc using heavy attacks that would not die. It's causing players to quit left and right.

It was a joke that they allowed people to transfer their chars to console, anyone who thought about it for 5 seconds could realize this would happen... it doesn't mean it was because of CP's though, gold gear alone at vr14 will faceroll vr1 to 5's easy, especially if they don't have the skill yet.

S1ipperyJim

ragespell wrote: »

Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »

The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.

"The filthy casuals" are the majority. They are the ones who buy cosmetic items.
In the end they pay the bills.

Forum posts are not objective surveys nor do they represent the entire player base or the majority opinion. There is a specific psychology to the kind of people who make frequent forum comments which make them a very unreliable.

Tolmos

Love_Chunks wrote: »

All these thoeries suggestion and presumtions... How about this scenario: you get thrashed in pvp, do you ask the player who killed you how many CP they had? Are you going to do that everytime you die in cyro? Suppose someone actually repsonds and has less CP than you. Was it skill then? In the opposite situation does more CP mean they only won because of that?

This is the problem I have with detractors you have no real measuring stick. All you have is asssumptions base solely on numbers and no gameplay based eveidence validate all these claims. Theres no way to know how many CP other players have unless you take the time to actually ask them and thus CP ends up being a scapegoat for dying in cyro.

Yep, that's the joy of the CP system. You can gain a massive stat advantage over your opponent, never tell anyone you have it and pretend like it was all "skill".

Except, of course, when people see your ridiculously huge HP, Magicka and Stamina pools. Then they'll be like "ahhh, I see".

Remember: Stats == skill!

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

On Console its kinda fricked because of transfers. I had an entire vet group get wiped by one sorc using heavy attacks that would not die. It's causing players to quit left and right.

Reason #1283 that I feel bad for console players in this game. ZOS did you guys no favors at all...

Vynist

Love_Chunks wrote: »

All these thoeries suggestion and presumtions... How about this scenario: you get thrashed in pvp, do you ask the player who killed you how many CP they had? Are you going to do that everytime you die in cyro? Suppose someone actually repsonds and has less CP than you. Was it skill then? In the opposite situation does more CP mean they only won because of that?

This is the problem I have with detractors you have no real measuring stick. All you have is asssumptions base solely on numbers and no gameplay based eveidence validate all these claims. Theres no way to know how many CP other players have unless you take the time to actually ask them and thus CP ends up being a scapegoat for dying in cyro.

I read through all these posts and THIS is what I'm thinking as well. Hit the nail on the head.

gatwinchester

What difference does it make? I mean, from my perspective, PVP seems to be a numbers game.

RoamingRiverElk

I do want some CP to be enabled in Cyrodiil (except possibly nonvet) so that you have room to do different kinds of builds. Something like 300 CP would be fine with me. Definitely not more than 600 CP because regen is out of control already.

Gamertaglemieux

Jared_lindsey86_ESO wrote: »

The filthy casuals are crying about the Champion points because it mean they have to actually play the game to get them.

And the unemployed no lifers are sadden no longer can they hide behind maxed out characters to win they would actually have to utilize some skill and strategy without those Champion points.

For shame, for shame.

Iduyenn

Why not change the current system to new skill alterations(like skyrim werewolf tree)

Oh ppl will start whyning anyway.

Alphashado

ESO is already way behind in content development due to focusing on console launch and all the time they spent developing the Champion System which was initially unplanned and developed as a result of negative feedback for Veteran Ranks. There are supposed to be 4 phases to the CS. We are currently in phase 3.

The CS may not be perfect, but at this point they need to stick with the initial plan and actually get back to developing real content. This game cannot afford another massive delay in content development in order to spend developmental resources on restructuring the existing system. Again.

dalldubspell

Alphashado wrote: »

ESO is already way behind in content development due to focusing on console launch and all the time they spent developing the Champion System which was initially unplanned and developed as a result of negative feedback for Veteran Ranks. There are supposed to be 4 phases to the CS. We are currently in phase 3.

The CS may not be perfect, but at this point they need to stick with the initial plan and actually get back to developing real content. This game cannot afford another massive delay in content development in order to spend developmental resources on restructuring the existing system. Again.

Yes

RadicalSpirit

guangui wrote: »

Do people really hate getting beat up in PvP that much that they come up with all these complicated ideas to fix CP system?

Easy fix would be to disable CP's from PvP and make em PvE exclusives. That way all these "This game isnt about skills its about outgrinding" would feel better.

Seriously. Why hasn't this been discussed? Just disable them from PvP to make it fair for everyone. If you really need all your CP to win in a battle then that's a shame. I read a post about making it a battle of skill. Well what better way than to disable them in PvP? No way complains about being carried in PvE by a 2000+ CP player but they do complain about being beat in a battle.


This would be the simplest solution instead of all these complicated ideas or "Catch up" Mechanics people want.

It's part of MMOs, and part of the reason a game like GTA will always be better than any MMO imo, because there is no level advantage it all boils down to skill. As a fresh level 3, I can still go whoop the *** out of everyone in GTA lobbies, regardless of their rank. In ESO, there would be absolutely no chance that I could kill a V14 as a level 3, I'd probably get one shot back on the boat out of Tamriel.

People who play MMOs know what they're getting into though, that more often than not, the people with all the time in the world will have a huge advantage over those who have to work.

Grinding for CP is no different than grinding for skill points, or gear, or rank that gives innate stat boosts, it's the way all MMOs are, & that's why the MMO crowd get a bad rep. Because to get to the highest level in most MMOs, you have to have the time to dedicate to it and very little else... So that's why the majority of them end up looking like real life gollum.

SC0TY999

I'd be more than happy for ZOS to disable CP in trials and PvP

It would definitely help with balance!

IMHO it should have been like that from day 1.