Cuyler wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

guangui wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

it also affects PVE, how do you create balanced new content. It will either be to easy for those with lots of CP or too hard for those without any!

That's not entirely true.

They'll release new content. New content exceeding the difficulty of the previous one. Anyone who was running the hardest content before the new one release can run the new one. Anyone who wasn't able to run to hardest content before the new one would not be able to run the new one.

You'd have to work you're way up to the hardest content. I remember when I couldn't finish Serenes Web because me and my team were weak but a few weeks later we gain some points and level and were able to finish it. I'm working my way up like any new player should. By the time i work my way up to the harder content i'll have a nice sum of points. And if content proves too difficult, i'll gain some more from do-able content.

Working my way up

Check out this comment http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1989961/#Comment_1989961, where I outline a progression that can do without verticality even in PVE. In truth, the whole idea of making your character and the environment stronger at the same time is totally idiotic. Think about it for a second. You don't get any real progression out of it, except for an illusion of power, and that low quality pleasure of being able to go back to one-shoot lower level mobs. But that is not the same sense of achievement that you get from being able to kill mobs quicker because you got better at executing your skills.

All this progression does is it linearizes exploration, because this way you have to do it in a certain order to match the content with your level. Essentially ZOS spent all this work on creating a huge and beautiful world that they sell as an open world, but the mechanics puts players on a leash and forces them on specific path. They are destroying the beautiful experience they worked so hard to create. It's absolutely idiotic.

Just give us an open world where all mobs are the same level (except for a few stronger ones - a troll should ALWAYS be stronger than a skeever, meeting a lvl 50 skeever that is much harder to kill than a lvl 25 troll is just ridiculous), and provide variety through good content and by giving us more and more skills to choose from, so that the progression will consist of trying out more and more ways to kill the monsters and finding the perfect playstyle for yourself.

Except what you fail to mention is that in previous ES games where this was the meta all the content scaled to your player level. So as you got stronger the world around you matched it.

If we had this purely open world that scaled at your player level the casuals would cry even more as they wouldn't be able to get past the first zone because they can't outlevel any content to make it easier. catch-22

Personally I agree with @guangui its an MMORPG and progression based. If you're not strong enough go back and work on your game. Git gud.....and come back to it later. This isn't the first game where this is the meta.

I know that's what they did in the other ES games, but you can't do that in an MMO. That's why I am proposing a flat difficulty level.

But I have to disagree with you that it is a catch 22.

1. You are right in that they can't out-level content, but they can still learn to play better and then come back later.
2. They can group up and do content with others that they can't do by themselves - great way to make a game more social.
3. They can accept that they simply can't do certain content, like beating trolls by themselves. People who are not competitive enough to improve their skill, are usually happy to accept defeat. Those who are not willing to accept defeat are usually competitive enough to improve their skill.
4. There is still gear progression to make them stronger.
5. There is still the horizontal progression progression of acquiring more skills. So if they can't beat a monster, they can go back later (by themselves and without having gotten better at the game) with new skills that the monster may be vulnerable to. These preparation-based combat mechanics work very well in the Witcher serious.
6. Also I am proposing a model where you have a traditional leveling mechanic for the first 20 levels, so there is enough vertical progression to work as a tutorial/learning phase for casuals.
7. The super casuals will not play as much as the hardcore players, some super casuals only play this game for a total of 100 hours.

Of course it is a matter of balancing, but a flat world would be much easier to balance, and you can spike it with many higher level mobs, so that there is an infinite challenge element to keep even hardcore players engaged. If this were my game, I would add a super, super hard mob boss to the second zone - a boss that is so hard that only the most skilled players will be able to beat that mob by themselves after getting the absolute best gear and practicing for a year. End then one year after launch you would suddenly see a forum post entitled "I finally did it - Killed super boss XY by myself", and then everyone else will want to do it as well. Great fun!

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

People that complain about them are bad at pvp and want to try and blame CP, because they're not the problem for being bad.

Thats not entirely true.

A thousand more points makes a huge difference in a battle. If you think otherwise you are mistaken.

TequilaFire wrote: »

I still suck at 1v30 in PvP no matter how many CP I add.

I think in a 1v30 no one would come out victorious lol

It's the age old MMO whine, casual vs hardcore. The players that haven't put in the time and effort expecting to be on par with those that have been playing for over a year and/or those that are playing 8+ hours a day. Of course you are going to die to players that put in more time, you should.

WebBull wrote: »

It's the age old MMO whine, casual vs hardcore. The players that haven't put in the time and effort expecting to be on par with those that have been playing for over a year and/or those that are playing 8+ hours a day. Of course you are going to die to players that put in more time, you should.

Says who?
No other mmorpg has followed this route to make veteran players gods. Not for long at least. There is always a catch up mechanism.

WebBull wrote: »

It's the age old MMO whine, casual vs hardcore. The players that haven't put in the time and effort expecting to be on par with those that have been playing for over a year and/or those that are playing 8+ hours a day. Of course you are going to die to players that put in more time, you should.

Please read my first comment in this thread. It's people like you who really get me fired up. If you are a hardcore player and you get to play the game for 50 hours every week, you will be a better player than a casual, because of YOUR skill as a player. Why do you need a mathematical advantage on top of it?

Good Counter-Strike players got 50 to 1 kill ratios on noobs, or even more. Do you think people would have played that game for so long if the good players would have also gotten stronger guns?

ragespell wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

It's the age old MMO whine, casual vs hardcore. The players that haven't put in the time and effort expecting to be on par with those that have been playing for over a year and/or those that are playing 8+ hours a day. Of course you are going to die to players that put in more time, you should.

Says who?
No other mmorpg has followed this route to make veteran players gods. Not for long at least. There is always a catch up mechanism.

Says me. Every game does it with just a different type of mechanism. Usually through armor/weapon progression. In this case the armor/weapon progression is minimal and the differentiator is CP.

spoqster wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

It's the age old MMO whine, casual vs hardcore. The players that haven't put in the time and effort expecting to be on par with those that have been playing for over a year and/or those that are playing 8+ hours a day. Of course you are going to die to players that put in more time, you should.

Please read my first comment in this thread. It's people like you who really get me fired up. If you are a hardcore player and you get to play the game for 50 hours every week, you will be a better player than a casual, because of YOUR skill as a player. Why do you need a mathematical advantage on top of it?

Good Counter-Strike players got 50 to 1 kill ratios on noobs, or even more. Do you think people would have played that game for so long if the good players would have also gotten stronger guns?

This isn't an ESO MMO problem, this is a you problem. You are expecting a different type of game than this type ofMMO. There always needs to be progression coupled with skill. This keeps interest (there has to be a grind). I am far from a hardcore player and am lucky if I average couple hours a day. I will never be ahead of even the average CP gain BUT i know that and I understand what type of game I am playing.

Personally, I have never has a problem with the champion system. I have been playing since it went buy to play, and my highest level character is level 49. I'm not even at the veteran ranks yet because I mostly play PvP. I also play solo most of the time and simply travel to wherever the battles are in order to help out. My kill to death ratio is usually around 5. This is because I have taken the time to learn how the game mechanics work. I have a hard time even in 1v1, but I am good at choosing targets in a large scale battle, as well as surviving if I am caught on my own. I should also point out that I an argonian stamina nb. I know people say that champion points are a problem, but if so, wouldn't nonvet be where it is the most obvious? I usually die if I don't see a siege circle during a battle or if I'm not paying attention to where the battle lines are and I get surrounded.

Anyway have fun arguing over something that won't change for a while

spoqster wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

It's the age old MMO whine, casual vs hardcore. The players that haven't put in the time and effort expecting to be on par with those that have been playing for over a year and/or those that are playing 8+ hours a day. Of course you are going to die to players that put in more time, you should.

Please read my first comment in this thread. It's people like you who really get me fired up. If you are a hardcore player and you get to play the game for 50 hours every week, you will be a better player than a casual, because of YOUR skill as a player. Why do you need a mathematical advantage on top of it?

Good Counter-Strike players got 50 to 1 kill ratios on noobs, or even more. Do you think people would have played that game for so long if the good players would have also gotten stronger guns?

Owned the guy.

most people which defends the Champion Point System have to be boring CP farmers
or they dont get it
this fantastic game deserves better,
it cant be that the best thing ingame to progress is stupid farming
for what make a whole game with nice dungeons and cyrodiil but if you are there
you loose progress
the game needs new players the vet 14 grind its everlasting for casuals and at the end they get
slaughtered in cyrodiil and have no chance on leaderboards



the Champion System is a RUSHJOB without to be aware about the future of the game

Don't worry, ZOS will fix the Champion Point System by offering upgrades through the Crown Store.

But

Seriously it is becoming a huge issue and more apparent as the grinders acquire more and more of them very fast. It affects the PvE progression also, making it extremely easy and lessens the value of the content.

guangui wrote: »

Like Deltia said. It doesn't matter how much talent you have if the mathematical difference between the points are drastic. The only way you'd tackle a talented player fair would be if no one had the points in PvP. At least that's what makes most sense to me. .

It is for exactly that reason that the CP system is FOR the casuals.

If I were to jump right into PvP as a fresh v14 I would be crushed for TWO reasons. #1 I have not spent the time to get really good with my character, that means I lack raw player based skill. #2 I have not had the time to grind hundreds or thousands of CP giving me a mathematical disadvantage.

Now I can either die OVER and OVER and OVER again in PvP, possibly loosing interest in the game but eventually garnering enough practical experience to become competive SKILL WISE while also gaining some CP. OR I could spend a few days (okay maybe a few weeks) grinding zombies with a partner and a hand full of xp scrolls and jump into PvP with 2k CP, learning the ropes as a fresh player, but with enough of an advantage to not die instantly.

I am not saying the system is perfect, but I do believe the CP system was put into place to give casuals another way to contribute to PvP without being cannon fodder.

guangui wrote: »

All these people who believe the are so good might no be so good if everyone was on fair grounds in PvP hahah.

This is exactly right, but serves a purpose. These days in any multiplayer game you have a large % of people that try it, play for a while then quit from discouragement because they are never able to properly learn how to play their characters because they are constantly being killed.

Giving casual (or new) players an options to spend time gaining Champion Points to help them get a leg up will encourage more and more people to join in on the PvP fun! If this system was not in place Cyrodiil would become more and more empty over time as the really great PvPers would drive out the casuals who do not find dying over and over again fun.

technohic wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

I proposed this way back before the CS was released: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/153790/in-cyrodiil-and-trials-disable-cs-limit-skill-points-and-scale-characters-to-v1

I like that idea. Would have made veteran levels 0 issue for me as well as I could just play the single player content at my leisure and level up without a care while still being able to go to Cyrodiil and not be determined as fodder regardless of how well I play.

This has it's place in some games, but in the general MMO market many people want to progress their character and reap the rewards of their time spent.

What you are referring to has already been done, see GW2, or pretty much any FPS.

Vertical gear progression and any sort of alternate advancement that can be done outside of PvP will always change the PvP battlefield. Some will not like it, but the general populace will embrace it because it will help keep the PvP battle areas alive and populated with us dirty casuals.