BEST IDEA FOR CS GAP PROBLEM (THX to Rune_Relic)
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
-
Marsgodofwar✭✭✭LadyDestiny wrote: »
Yeah I can't understand what all these new players think they need and should catch up? Catch up to what? Someone thats been playing for over a year? Makes no sense because if they finish leveling from vr 1 to vr14, they will have obtained the same amount of champion points that I had when I hit vr14. There is no catching up to do, they just need to grind out their character just like any other vet has. This makes me laugh everytime I see a thread about this. If they go to any other mmo like WoW, SWToR, Lotro etc., and try to tell that to some vet players who put years into their game, they would be a laughing stock. We live in the "I wants it nowz" generation
Except it's not an "I wants it nowz" thing. In any of those other games you mentioned if I playing now I would eventually hit max level but I'll still be behind on gear so the vets will still have an advantage. Well the next time an expansion rolls out that gear will most likely become obsolete so my character itself will then be on an equal playing field as the vets characters (vets still have better gear but no longer the bis) but the vets themselves will still have an advantage of their knowledge of the game.
Now I didn't just start playing yesterday, I'm probably still below average on my cp (around 130 I believe). I'm not asking for an I win button nor am I asking for them to just give me champion points. With the system op mentioned a new player will still have to grind to catch up to vet characters, I just see this system as shortening that grind to a reasonable amount of time.0 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭CP system should:
-have a strong increasing xp requirement per level, starting at 100k and increasing by 2k every level. So at lvl 100 you would need 300k, 200 you need 500k, 300 you need 700k. This effectively puts 3600 way out of reach for anyone (at lvl 1000 you would need 2.1 million per level, 4.1 million per level at 2000), which is what we want. An even stronger diminishing return could be 2k per level + 100 (2000, 2100, 2200, 2300 etc.)
Do you really want to extend the time to reach max 3600 CP for someone who earns 1-2 per day from current 5-10 years out to 30+ years?
ESO already has a fairly good "catch up" mechanic - unfortunately, it only lasts 12 days. When you have enlightenment, you are earning CP 4x faster than dedicated grinders who have already burned through all their enlightenment.
While enlightened, you can easily earn 2-3CP per hour from PVP or PVE content, just playing the game normally without grinding and without XP buffs. After using up enlightenment, even the most hardcore grinder with XP scrolls cannot earn more than 2-3CP per hour.
If the enlightenment pool were extended to store up indefinitely or at least for a few months, for example, those who had a V14 character as of March 3 would be able to easily get up to around 200 CP as of today just from playing the game normally, without grinding.
Champion rank 200 is not going to compare to the most dedicated who have been grinding out 5-10 CP per day since 1.6, but it is still competitive with most players in Cyrodiil.
.Edited by IcyDeadPeople on July 7, 2015 1:55PM0 -
smokes✭✭✭LadyDestiny wrote: »
Yeah I can't understand what all these new players think they need and should catch up? Catch up to what? Someone thats been playing for over a year? Makes no sense because if they finish leveling from vr 1 to vr14, they will have obtained the same amount of champion points that I had when I hit vr14. There is no catching up to do, they just need to grind out their character just like any other vet has. This makes me laugh everytime I see a thread about this. If they go to any other mmo like WoW, SWToR, Lotro etc., and try to tell that to some vet players who put years into their game, they would be a laughing stock. We live in the "I wants it nowz" generation
yea, thats utter BS.
i played wow for 9 years. every expansion used to be a gear reset along with level cap increase. nowadays gear is reset with pretty much every raid tier they release, then reset again with every expansion and level increase.
on top of that, "old" content has it's XP requirement nerfed dramatically every time new content is released and there are multiple gear catch up systems in place.
players that are level 100 and in full mythic raid gear for the current top tier, are only at true endgame until the next tier or expansion is released.
when an expansion or new tier is released the hardcores will race to the finish again, to get fully equipped in their top end mythic gear, but everyone else has equal opportunity to catch up to them during the current expansion if they put in the time, skill and effort to do so.
you can't do that in ESO. someone who 0CP today and 1200 CP in a years time cannot compete with someone who is 1200CP today and 2400CP in a years time - even though over the same period of time, they both earned exactly the same amount of CP.
ESO's progression system is totally borked. i've never played a game so rampantly exploited by grinders trying to min/max the system, over the other 95% of the playerbase that play the game as it was intended, by questing and enjoying the scenery, not repeatedly killing zombies in a cave.
don't even try to defend it, it's so far wrong it's not even funny, it's utterly dissapointing. 1-50 was awesome. VR1 saw the death of everyone that could see the forest through the trees. many stayed in the hope it would be fixed, but without zenimax both identifying and admitting the problem, ESO is just gonna slowly die out after console players start hitting VR1 and come to the same conclusion as many others.Edited by smokes on July 7, 2015 1:48PM6 -
Rakshat✭✭✭I like the idea. This would add an extra layer to character development without making things too frustrating and discouraging. I normally don't mind infinite vertical progression but CP system as it is now is insanity.Raven Ashcrown
GM of CRIMSON MALICE
Proud member of: BATMAN BRIGADE and TEAM SUICIDE SQUAD
R.I.P. Wabbajack1 -
LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭
I have never played WoW, but are you telling me it will take 10 years of grinding to be at the same level as players who have been there since the beginning? Or 3 years for SWTOR, or 8 years for LotRO? It doesn't, and no one would ever start playing those games if that was the requirement.
But that is exactly how ESO will be. Want to be viable in end-game content balanced for 1000 CP? See you in 2 years. Want to not get insta-killed in PvP since everyone else has 25% more damage and take 25% less damage than you (not to mention a whole boatload of strong passives)? See you in 2 years.
Only thing is, in 2 years you will be at 1000 CP, and all the old-timers will be at 2000 CP . So you will never ever catch up. Fun.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have been playing since pc beta, well over a year already. No it won't take you ten years, but it took me over a year to get where I am now. You think it makes sense for a new player to hit that point in say a month? Well, that depends on how much time they have to play. If they can do it, hats off to them. By the way, passives don't take long to fill if you are playing the game right and doing your main quests, dungeons and skyshards.You should have more than you need into your vet ranks. There is around 300 skill points available in the game. Oh and in the above you mentioned about catching up to old people. Yes we all have to die sometime. Just remember there is a cap on cp's thankfully. Just some will get here first and we can wait for you to catch up
Edited by LadyDestiny on July 7, 2015 2:09PM0 -
LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭Spectral_Lord wrote: »Not everyone can sit on their lazy butt all day grinding CP. There are people who consider being able to play for an hour a day a blessing, and you want them to spend all of that time on grinding?
True, not everyone has all the time in the world. Problem is if gaming companies started structering mmo's around those that only have an hour to play each day and can quick level, they might as well close up shop. Mmo's are suppose to be time consuming, otherwise people would scream for new content, more levels etc and companies would lose money and go out of business.
0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Let me use an example here. Say you take up a karate class. There's guys who have been there two years or more. Do you expect to be as strong and as good at it as them after your first week?
Of course not. But you will gain on him faster than he will be able to keep the gap the same, since it is harder to advance from red belt to black than it is to advance from white belt to gold. As the years go on, those extra couple of years become less and less relevant, as the newcomer closes the gap.1 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyDestiny wrote: »
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have been playing since pc beta, well over a year already. No it won't take you ten years, but it took me over a year to get where I am now. You think it makes sense for a new player to hit that point in say a month? Well, that depends on how much time they have to play. If they can do it, hats off to them. By the way, passives don't take long to fill if you are playing the game right and doing your main quests, dungeons and skyshards.You should have more than you need into your vet ranks. There is around 300 skill points available in the game. Oh and in the above you mentioned about catching up to old people. Yes we all have to die sometime. Just remember there is a cap on cp's thankfully. Just some will get here first and we can wait for you to catch up
I was talking about the CP passives that are unlocked at 10,30,75,120.
I've stated the problem, if you don't see it as an issue then I can no further convince you.0 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭IcyDeadPeople wrote: »
Do you really want to extend the time to reach max 3600 CP for someone who earns 1-2 per day from current 5-10 years out to 30+ years?
ESO already has a fairly good "catch up" mechanic - unfortunately, it only lasts 12 days. When you have enlightenment, you are earning CP 4x faster than dedicated grinders who have already burned through all their enlightenment.
The idea of the CP system was to provide "endless" progression. Personally I don't hope to ever achieve 3600 CP's. I don't think it is the point. I think the point is to always be striving for some small increase.
And enlightenment is not a catch-up feature as it provides the exact same amount of bonus to people who play everyday and players who are new/have not played in a while.
Remember when you come back after 12 days and have your enlightenment pool, players who were in game for that 12 days have already used that same pool. Unless all every one does is spend 20 minutes using up there enlightenment pool and then log off, they will simply get further and further ahead of you.
Extending enlightenment to while you are logged off ONLY (eg. gain 10,000? enlightenment per hour while logged off) would certainly be a good catch-up mechanism for those who already have an account, but it does nothing for those who are new to the game.
0 -
washlov✭✭✭people think!!!
a system were new players need more than a year to can play competitive with friends or alone kills the game slowly
there are PVE leaderboards
there are PVP these things are only good when it is fair
will you recommend the game a friend and say come on farm a year than we have a chance in PVP
why exclude so many people from being competitive (casuals,only weekend players)
in wow you get instant 90 characters and all four month or so a item reset which balance all
the other mmos are niche products
we have the year 2015 a game is there to play not to grind if your hobby is grinding nobody will stop you
Edited by washlov on July 7, 2015 3:22PM1 -
LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭
I was talking about the CP passives that are unlocked at 10,30,75,120.
I've stated the problem, if you don't see it as an issue then I can no further convince you.
Not sure what point you are trying to make. Basically, you think veterans should not have these passives until you have caught up to them right? You think it is unfair that someone else has worked longer than you to obtain these. You want to be on the same level as a vet player who has ground countless hours, even if you have only ground a few. Well, until Zos decides to change this, no account of whining over it is going to help. Just keep grinding, and if and when the times comes that they revamp or get rid of our cp's, passives, vet ranks and uber gear, or maybe add in separate levels for pvp, dungeons, trials for every10 champion points earned etc. Then maybe you can feel viable. Anyway, I' m out........:)0 -
Bfish22090✭✭✭✭✭I had to click forget password so I could post that this is the worst idea I've heard today0
-
LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭Bfish22090 wrote: »I had to click forget password so I could post that this is the worst idea I've heard today
It was meant as sarcasm0 -
Rhakon✭✭✭This should be not a thread for a pro or con Champion System
CS system and endless progression is a nice thing but it should not be vertical progress.
Zos cant balance PVE because it will get boring with to much CS, and the Leaderboards get Useless and senseless.
Zos can't balance PvP because it destroys the anyway hard to obtain, necessary competition.
It take every skill out of the game.
I got better in playing PvE/PVP since beta, there are so much beautiful and fun things to do in ESOTU and at these adventures you get skill simply for having fun. I am and want to be a better player for playing a game, not for farming CS points.
The CS system should be in the background, and bring diversity and individualism to the game(which it does not). It should not be the main goal to get CP at the fastest rate possible because of the buffs.
A solution is needed to save ESOTU, that's out of the question.
So pls use this thread about ideas and answers to the problems the CS causes, because this is what will keep the game ALIVE.3 -
Saturn✭✭✭✭✭
✭The real problem (as mentioned) is not the passive increases, while they are worth getting (stuff like Elemental damage which at 100 points give 25% increase or cost reduction that caps at 20%), no the passive health/magicka/stamina increases are what will turn out to be the big issues with Champion Points. As it stands you tend to get somewhere between 10-25 extra per point spent in a tree, Stamina for Thief, Magicka for Mage and Health for Warrior. However, if you take that small incremental increase and multiply it by the total amount of possible champion points you are looking at a huge problem with balance.
I put 75 points into each of the three celestials on a new level 3. Those 75 points in Warrior/Mage/Thief increased my Health/Magicka/Stamina with about 15% each. If we assume the small amount each point gives you is the same for every point spent, then that means that 3600 champion points, i.e. 1200 per celestial, will mean that my level 3 would have all of its resources increased by 240%. Now I don't know how this scales, but that is super broken and there are already reports of people with close to 1000 points. It definitely needs a nerf, otherwise all the content the devs throw at us will be face-rolled so hard that they won't know what to do..1 -
Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Let me use an example here. Say you take up a karate class. There's guys who have been there two years or more. Do you expect to be as strong and as good at it as them after your first week?
I've done numerous different Martial Arts in my long years and have recently taken up Tang Soo Do, after a week as a White Belt I was sparing with Black belts as my experience from different disciplines gave me the knowledge to hold my own.
Had the Black Belts had some magical enhancement to their speed and dexterity I would not be able to hold my own until I also got this magical power.
1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The real problem (as mentioned) is not the passive increases, while they are worth getting (stuff like Elemental damage which at 100 points give 25% increase or cost reduction that caps at 20%), no the passive health/magicka/stamina increases are what will turn out to be the big issues with Champion Points. As it stands you tend to get somewhere between 10-25 extra per point spent in a tree, Stamina for Thief, Magicka for Mage and Health for Warrior. However, if you take that small incremental increase and multiply it by the total amount of possible champion points you are looking at a huge problem with balance.
I put 75 points into each of the three celestials on a new level 3. Those 75 points in Warrior/Mage/Thief increased my Health/Magicka/Stamina with about 15% each. If we assume the small amount each point gives you is the same for every point spent, then that means that 3600 champion points, i.e. 1200 per celestial, will mean that my level 3 would have all of its resources increased by 240%. Now I don't know how this scales, but that is super broken and there are already reports of people with close to 1000 points. It definitely needs a nerf, otherwise all the content the devs throw at us will be face-rolled so hard that they won't know what to do..
Yup, attribute increase should have never been part of the champion system.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.1 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LadyDestiny wrote: »
Not sure what point you are trying to make. Basically, you think veterans should not have these passives until you have caught up to them right?
Nope never said that. Diminishing XP returns is what the game needs to remain open to new players.LadyDestiny wrote: »You think it is unfair that someone else has worked longer than you to obtain these. You want to be on the same level as a vet player who has ground countless hours, even if you have only ground a few.
Nope, never said that either. Diminishing returns is what the game needs to remain open to new players.LadyDestiny wrote: »Well, until Zos decides to change this, no account of whining over it is going to help.
Expressing opinions on the forums is actually a good way to get important changes in the game. Therefore, diminishing returns on CP XP is what is needed to keep the game open to new players.LadyDestiny wrote: »Just keep grinding, and if and when the times comes that they revamp or get rid of our cp's, passives, vet ranks and uber gear, or maybe add in separate levels for pvp, dungeons, trials for every10 champion points earned etc. Then maybe you can feel viable. Anyway, I' m out........:)
I will always feel viable, since I am here now and have the required 250 CP levels to be competitive. In a year new players will never feel viable.
In case you missed my point, one last time, diminishing returns on CP XP is needed to keep the game open to new players.0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good points @danno8 but I don't think the answer is to slow down CP gain via diminishing returns or CP caps. Adding catch up mechanics that enable players to more quickly gain CP without cheapening the work put in by the top CP earners is key. BOTH play types need to be supported.What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭New players can play with other new players as well, why is it everyone thinks a new player has to defeat a seasoned player?
It is not like they can't play with their other new friends.
Many are having a blast playing as noobs on console right now and I hear very little of this crap in area chat.Edited by TequilaFire on July 7, 2015 4:22PM1 -
washlov✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »New players can play with other new players as well, why is it everyone thinks a new player has to defeat a seasoned player?
It is not like they can't play with their other new friends.
Many are having a blast playing as noobs on console right now and I hear very little of this crap in area chat.
yes and they will never catch up this feeling of playing looks very motivating think!!!!!
the champion system is a quick shot, it is a boring system, which prefers farmers and exclude casuals and weekend players or players with work or players with families......
imagine you are a weekend player you will have no chance on leaderboards and get slaughtered in cyrodiil --> fun right
this system atm is only what for solo games but in mmos people want to play together or against each other and this have to be fair or its senselessEdited by washlov on July 7, 2015 4:34PM1 -
Rhakon✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »New players can play with other new players as well, why is it everyone thinks a new player has to defeat a seasoned player?
It is not like they can't play with their other new friends.
Many are having a blast playing as noobs on console right now and I hear very little of this crap in area chat.
rly? you want to be shark with some pilot fishes (your friends), one hitting through content and shine above them as the best Farmer out there?
They will never catch up, so you would always be ahead of them.
I would not recommend the game to any of my friends or gamers until this get changed.
Edited by Rhakon on July 7, 2015 4:34PM0 -
LadyDestiny✭✭✭✭✭Good points @danno8 but I don't think the answer is to slow down CP gain via diminishing returns or CP caps. Adding catch up mechanics that enable players to more quickly gain CP without cheapening the work put in by the top CP earners is key. BOTH play types need to be supported.
This I can agree with and makes more sense 0 -
washlov✭✭✭Good points @danno8 but I don't think the answer is to slow down CP gain via diminishing returns or CP caps. Adding catch up mechanics that enable players to more quickly gain CP without cheapening the work put in by the top CP earners is key. BOTH play types need to be supported.
the Champion System is a RUSH JOB without to be aware about the future of the game
"cheapening the work" says it all a game should not feel like that
how long will new players stay? if they realize they have to catch up for a few month before to be competitive
Edited by washlov on July 7, 2015 4:46PM0 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
the Champion System is a RUSH JOB without to be aware about the future of the game
"cheapening the work" says it all a game should not feel like that
how long will new players stay? if they realize they have to catch up for a few month before to be competitive
I don't think players realistically expect to be competitive from day one.... do they?What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!0 -
Faugaun✭✭✭✭✭
the Champion System is a RUSH JOB without to be aware about the future of the game
"cheapening the work" says it all a game should not feel like that
how long will new players stay? if they realize they have to catch up for a few month before to be competitive
define competitive?
I think true competitive everyone is on equal ground so it's actually however long it takes to grind 3600 CP before you will be on equal ground ...I think for many that will be well past 2 years.
My new startup social network for Theorycrafting
Champion Point Calculators
Sharable samples:
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Warrior.htm?ba=5&bl=&e=12&ha=10&he=&l=&m=&n=5&q=20&r=15&s=15&t=18
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Thief.htm?a=5&b=22&d=2&e=18&h=8&ma=0&mo=5&sh=9&sp=19&te=12&tu=13&w=1
http://asolutionaday.com/test/Mage.htm?bla=5&ble=1&bo=6&ele=2&elf=3&h=7&m=9&pi=10&pr=20&sp=4&st=8&t=400 -
ragespell✭✭✭PVE wise, if the new content will be hard enough, people will look for a min CP to invite a player in a party
I don't think players realistically expect to be competitive from day one.... do they?
How many games have you played in which you had to grind 6 months before be competitive?
Well, maybe you are one of those psychos who can run in circle killing mobs 8 hours a day
1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I had some thoughts, and this mind sound a bit crazy, but I'd like to hear what you think.
Currently, Mundus stones feel obsolete. They simply provide a passive buff to one thing or another, but so does the Champion System. Besides, the most common mundus stones of +attribute are dreadfully boring. If we limit the champion buffs to only a handful at a time, I don't see a lot of distinction between the two, even more so when both represent the old birth sign system.
So, why not merge them?
The idea is simple: When getting a mundus buff from a mundus stone, you can chose a specific set of champion passives. This is merely a slight modification to the original suggestion of the OP, but I think it makes sense.
Mage: You can slot 1 Apprentice, 1 Atronach and 1 Ritual passive
Apprentice: You can slot 3 Apprentice passives
Atronach: You can slot 3 Atronach passives
Ritual: You can slot 3 Ritual passives
Warrior: You can slot 1 Steed, 1 Lady and 1 Lord passive
Steed: You can slot 3 Steed passives
Lady: You can slot 3 Lady passives
Lord: You can slot 3 Lord passives
Thief: You can slot 1 Tower, 1 Lover and 1 Shadow passive
Tower: You can slot 3 Tower passives
Lover: You can slot 3 Lover passives
Shadow: You can slot 3 Shadow passives
Serpent: You can slot 1 Mage (Apprentice/Atronach/Ritual), 1 Warrior (Steed/Lady/Lord) and 1 Thief (Tower/Lover/Shadow) passive
This would be neat, but has several implications. For one, it doesn't make much sense with the usual buffs the birth signs provided - but they changed over the course of the games anyway, so this might not be a huge annoyance. It would also influence the divines equipment trait (should it increase the champion passives?), and would require a redesign of the Twice-Born Star set bonus.
Further, it still doesn't address the unlockable champion passives (unlocked at 10/30/75/120 pts). If these are active with at least one passive of that tree slotted, it would make the guardian signs incredibly strong. If they would have to be slotted themselves, a lot of them might seem inferior to the normal passives. So some more thought should be put here.
Thoughts?Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
F7sus4✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'd be wary on calling CP grinders lazy. But I'd actually call the whine to have something a person didn't earn (CP) stupid. Cheers!Spectral_Lord wrote: »Not everyone can sit on their lazy butt all day grinding CP. There are people who consider being able to play for an hour a day a blessing, and you want them to spend all of that time on grinding?
Edited by F7sus4 on July 11, 2015 11:04AM0