Away with the Champion System!

Seaber

MaximusDargus wrote: »

ragespell wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

That might sound harsh but players with less time should pick MMOs where your progress is not determined by actual time spent in game (most of browser games where resources regenerate over time and you just log in to spent them).

Otherwise they knew what they were signing for. In real time MMO players with more time will always be ahead of players with less time.

I see from your signature that you are against the removal of stam regen while blocking.

Can I ask you why? This may sound harsh, but if you can't keep up with champion points to have a stamina pool big enough to tank any content, you should think to play other games. May I suggest a browser game?

You are trying too hard dear, there is no CP constellation that directly increases max stamina... only stamina regen... which is going to be completly removed during blocking, so no matter if you have 1000CP into stamina regen, it will be 0. Also if you would read the discussion about this change maybe you would see why its a bad idea, and it has nothing to do with CP.... </offtopic>

putting any CPs into the green section of the champion sys will increase your max stamina by a %

Rune_Relic

MaximusDargus wrote: »

ragespell wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

That might sound harsh but players with less time should pick MMOs where your progress is not determined by actual time spent in game (most of browser games where resources regenerate over time and you just log in to spent them).

Otherwise they knew what they were signing for. In real time MMO players with more time will always be ahead of players with less time.

I see from your signature that you are against the removal of stam regen while blocking.

Can I ask you why? This may sound harsh, but if you can't keep up with champion points to have a stamina pool big enough to tank any content, you should think to play other games. May I suggest a browser game?

You are trying too hard dear, there is no CP constellation that directly increases max stamina... only stamina regen... which is going to be completly removed during blocking, so no matter if you have 1000CP into stamina regen, it will be 0. Also if you would read the discussion about this change maybe you would see why its a bad idea, and it has nothing to do with CP.... </offtopic>

This is the reality of how much max stamina, max magicka and max health increase with champion points added.
There are no passives for this....its automatic

Someone with 1000cp has 26% more stamina, 26% more health, 26% more magicka.
Someone with 3000cp has 49% more stamina, 49% more health, 49% more magicka.
That's assuming the 2 people concerned invested the same attribute points or the gaps are larger.

People are being slaughtered because the resources are in a completely different league before any passive bonuses are applied

Rinmaethodain

Noted,

Faugaun

Disagree with op, I think CS needs help but I don;t think removal is the correct solution. The reward every 100,000 cp is a lot of fun and rewarding feeling. My opinion is that it just needs to be made into a horizontal progression system (which was what they said they would do) instead of a vertical one. There are many different ways that this could be done and I'm not sure the best but I don't think scraping CS is the way.

Drazhar14

They just need to make greater diminishing returns. Make lower point investments give a larger bonus and higher point investments give a lower bonus than what it currently is.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

They don't need to remove it and replace it with something else with 6 months of work.
All they need to do is add a CHAMPION BAR with 3 slots.
1 Warrior passive can be loaded.
1 Thief passive can be loaded.
1 Mage passive can be loaded.

Now it doesn't matter how many CP you have as you can only use 3 passive out of the 36.

People can grind away to their hearts content.
Someone with 300 CP will be just as powerful as anyone with 3600 CP..except they wont have 36 passive skills to choose from.

The stam/mag/health from each CP has to be nerfed though.

No power creep.
No power gap.
No gated content.
Endless progression
No gated endgame
Forced Build diversity.

I like this idea, but 3 slots is too limited. There should be 12 slots. 4 for Warrior, 4 for Thief, and 4 for Mage. In each group, 1 slot will be for a 10 point passive, 1 will be for a 30 point passive, 1 will be for a 75 point passive, and 1 will be for a 120 point passive.

Gidorick

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

Away with the letter "R" from the vocabulary, just about as likely to happen.. LOL

I agee with @kevlato_ESO. That damn lette has eally uined my life. I had a athe pofitable esidential eceational ugby egulation boad and the eappopiation of esponsibilities that was the esult of a egulatoy misundestanding nealy cost me not only my monetay esouces but my eputation as a espected and esouceful membe of my neighbohood as well.

My life is bette without that lette.

ragespell

MaximusDargus wrote: »

ragespell wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

That might sound harsh but players with less time should pick MMOs where your progress is not determined by actual time spent in game (most of browser games where resources regenerate over time and you just log in to spent them).

Otherwise they knew what they were signing for. In real time MMO players with more time will always be ahead of players with less time.

I see from your signature that you are against the removal of stam regen while blocking.

Can I ask you why? This may sound harsh, but if you can't keep up with champion points to have a stamina pool big enough to tank any content, you should think to play other games. May I suggest a browser game?

You are trying too hard dear, there is no CP constellation that directly increases max stamina... only stamina regen... which is going to be completly removed during blocking, so no matter if you have 1000CP into stamina regen, it will be 0. Also if you would read the discussion about this change maybe you would see why its a bad idea, and it has nothing to do with CP.... </offtopic>

Actually I though they increase your resource pools.

But you can always reduce the cost of blocking, the stamina cost of skills, increase your armor etc etc.
With enough CP you will be golden, no stamina problem!

Rune_Relic

Drazhar14 wrote: »

They just need to make greater diminishing returns. Make lower point investments give a larger bonus and higher point investments give a lower bonus than what it currently is.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

They don't need to remove it and replace it with something else with 6 months of work.
All they need to do is add a CHAMPION BAR with 3 slots.
1 Warrior passive can be loaded.
1 Thief passive can be loaded.
1 Mage passive can be loaded.

Now it doesn't matter how many CP you have as you can only use 3 passive out of the 36.

People can grind away to their hearts content.
Someone with 300 CP will be just as powerful as anyone with 3600 CP..except they wont have 36 passive skills to choose from.

The stam/mag/health from each CP has to be nerfed though.

No power creep.
No power gap.
No gated content.
Endless progression
No gated endgame
Forced Build diversity.

I like this idea, but 3 slots is too limited. There should be 12 slots. 4 for Warrior, 4 for Thief, and 4 for Mage. In each group, 1 slot will be for a 10 point passive, 1 will be for a 30 point passive, 1 will be for a 75 point passive, and 1 will be for a 120 point passive.

But then you have shifted the competitive window.
3 slots only requires 300CP for everyone to be competitive in all 50+ content and balance wise ZOS only has to worry about 3 passives (resources aside)
So new players only have to grind 1-50 + 300cp at 50+ to be competitive at any and all new endgame content

With 12 slots players have to reach 50 + 1200CP before they become competitive and that a long long time.
Not much better than 3600 CP imho.
I am sure grinders could hit that in a year.. but most players aren't grinders and take much longer.
Probably 3 years or more.

Whatever... I would also suggest locking max stamina/magicka/health at the 300 or 1200 CP level so no one gets more powerful....just more versatile.

washlov

yes why exclude so much casuals and weekend players from being competitive
you cant recommend the game a friend cause it needs to long to catch up
atm the champion system destroys the future of the game

Rinmaethodain

Can someone tell me why people are so obsessed with:

"Catching up"

????

Because i dont get it? You start a game and first thing you think about is "catching up" with someone at the top who spend 2 years playing it?

tordr86b16_ESO

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Can someone tell me why people are so obsessed with:

"Catching up"

????

Because i dont get it? You start a game and first thing you think about is "catching up" with someone at the top who spend 2 years playing it?

Because most people are jealous little d bags thinking they are entitled to everything, without working for it!

washlov

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Can someone tell me why people are so obsessed with:

"Catching up"

????

Because i dont get it? You start a game and first thing you think about is "catching up" with someone at the top who spend 2 years playing it?

think!!

should new players need years to be competitive???
in the meantime they get slaughtered at cyrodiil and have no chance on leaderboards
how will you balance the pve ? to easy for high CP players to hard for new?

BigInGlenumbra

Removing it is stupid. It just needs to be changed because it awards the worst and smallest kinds of players (grinders) the most and it *will* discourage new players and already discourages some PvPers from playing the game, especially PvP.

If it takes a person 2 years to get 1000 CPs, and a new player joins and wishes to be a part of PvP, hits v14, plays until 200 CP and then realizes a person with 1k CP has significantly better stats, then it will really discourage that player to play 2 years just so he can fight fairly against people with higher CP in PvP, and that's assuming the player with 1k CP slows down with the CP.

Who the *$#@ will play a game mainly for the PvP just to find out he has to play for 2 years just to be competitive?

The CP system is now beginning to isolate and lower the PvP population to a few elite group with higher CPs.

And before another goober spouts the same "b-but skill matters more", the point isn't that skill does not matter, the point is that Champion stats give significant bonuses the higher amount of CPs you have attributed.

This is what Deltia was talking about.

Gidorick

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Can someone tell me why people are so obsessed with:

"Catching up"

????

Because i dont get it? You start a game and first thing you think about is "catching up" with someone at the top who spend 2 years playing it?

To answer your question without being insulting: It's about player motivation. Imagine you start a game and you go try pvp and you just get TROUNCED. So you go play more because you want to get better and decide look up info on how to get better. You then discover the people trouncing you have likely been playing for 2 years... and it will take you 2 years to get to to a point to where you can even compete on that level.... but then those that trounced you will have had 2 more years of advancement to be that much better than you.

How motivated will you be to play?

Without catchup mechanics an MMO would become an old player's game REALLY quickly.

Rinmaethodain

Imagine you join a sport club and go to competition and you just get owned in it. So you spent more time playing that sport. You then discover the people you meet at competition have been in this sport for 2 years... and it will take you 2 years to get to to a point to where you can even compete on that level.... but then those that owned you will have had 2 more years of advancement to be that much better than you because just as you were getting better they also were constantly competing with others and improving.

This
Is
Real
Life

Time is wisdom and experience. You achieve something training, exercising and spending time doing it.

You dont go to olympics to compete with people who are there for 2nd, 3rd, 4th time and when you get owned by them you start demanding to make all sports easier for you because you want to catch up with them and get gold medals too.

Its fine to look up to the top. Its NOT fine to demand that you want to get there right away or make people on top to be crippled and taken down to your own level.

washlov

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Imagine you join a sport club and go to competition and you just get owned in it. So you spent more time playing that sport. You then discover the people you meet at competition have been in this sport for 2 years... and it will take you 2 years to get to to a point to where you can even compete on that level.... but then those that owned you will have had 2 more years of advancement to be that much better than you because just as you were getting better they also were constantly competing with others and improving.

This
Is
Real
Life

Time is wisdom and experience. You achieve something training, exercising and spending time doing it.

You dont go to olympics to compete with people who are there for 2nd, 3rd, 4th time and when you get owned by them you start demanding to make all sports easier for you because you want to catch up with them and get gold medals too.

Its fine to look up to the top. Its NOT fine to demand that you want to get there right away or make people on top to be crippled and taken down to your own level.

lol its a game players want fun now.

Wow!

Talemire

The Champion System doesn't need to be touched - If you want to compete against someone with a lot of CPs, put the CPs you do have into whatever you're weakest in so you can counter enough to allow your skill to earn you the victory. This game is very skill-based, but I'm afraid to say that many of the most skilled players behind the keyboard and mouse lack in their ability to spec their character well. Same goes for many who are great at making a good solid character yet lack in the skill department. Don't blame ZOS, just change your game plan.

Rinmaethodain

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

Removing it is stupid. It just needs to be changed because it awards the worst and smallest kinds of players (grinders) the most and it *will* discourage new players and already discourages some PvPers from playing the game, especially PvP.

If it takes a person 2 years to get 1000 CPs, and a new player joins and wishes to be a part of PvP, hits v14, plays until 200 CP and then realizes a person with 1k CP has significantly better stats, then it will really discourage that player to play 2 years just so he can fight fairly against people with higher CP in PvP, and that's assuming the player with 1k CP slows down with the CP.

Who the *$#@ will play a game mainly for the PvP just to find out he has to play for 2 years just to be competitive?

The CP system is now beginning to isolate and lower the PvP population to a few elite group with higher CPs.

And before another goober spouts the same "b-but skill matters more", the point isn't that skill does not matter, the point is that Champion stats give significant bonuses the higher amount of CPs you have attributed.

This is what Deltia was talking about.

PVP whine at its best. Once again trying to ruin game with silly "i wanted to kill him, he killed me, it must be something wrong with game because im pvp god". Maybe if they would put as much time into pvping and trying to learn how to counter enemy builds as they put into whining and crying on forums, they would have no problems with defeating those with supposedly higher amount of CP (being super lucky at the same time, because wow, the chances fresh new players joins PVP and first thing he finds is a hardcore PVP with OVER 9000 CP who just waited there ready to slaughter fresh meat".

BigInGlenumbra

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Imagine you join a sport club and go to competition and you just get owned in it. So you spent more time playing that sport. You then discover the people you meet at competition have been in this sport for 2 years... and it will take you 2 years to get to to a point to where you can even compete on that level.... but then those that owned you will have had 2 more years of advancement to be that much better than you because just as you were getting better they also were constantly competing with others and improving.

This
Is
Real
Life

Time is wisdom and experience. You achieve something training, exercising and spending time doing it.

You dont go to olympics to compete with people who are there for 2nd, 3rd, 4th time and when you get owned by them you start demanding to make all sports easier for you because you want to catch up with them and get gold medals too.

Its fine to look up to the top. Its NOT fine to demand that you want to get there right away or make people on top to be crippled and taken down to your own level.

Yes, and real life sucks very often.

Health of the game (number of players that stay with the game - especially casuals) >>>>>> rewarding the few players that play 8 hours a day everyday

I don't think you understand the business side of this. At all.

Just look at the forums dude. The vast majority haven't even reached 1/4th of the max CP you can gain, and people are already voicing their problems with the CP system.


By your argument, there should be infinite CP. You literally agree that there should be an even higher max CP attainable. Do you even realize how incredibly stupid your argument is taking into account an even higher CP ceiling?

washlov

MaximusDargus wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

Removing it is stupid. It just needs to be changed because it awards the worst and smallest kinds of players (grinders) the most and it *will* discourage new players and already discourages some PvPers from playing the game, especially PvP.

If it takes a person 2 years to get 1000 CPs, and a new player joins and wishes to be a part of PvP, hits v14, plays until 200 CP and then realizes a person with 1k CP has significantly better stats, then it will really discourage that player to play 2 years just so he can fight fairly against people with higher CP in PvP, and that's assuming the player with 1k CP slows down with the CP.

Who the *$#@ will play a game mainly for the PvP just to find out he has to play for 2 years just to be competitive?

The CP system is now beginning to isolate and lower the PvP population to a few elite group with higher CPs.

And before another goober spouts the same "b-but skill matters more", the point isn't that skill does not matter, the point is that Champion stats give significant bonuses the higher amount of CPs you have attributed.

This is what Deltia was talking about.

PVP whine at its best. Once again trying to ruin game with silly "i wanted to kill him, he killed me, it must be something wrong with game because im pvp god". Maybe if they would put as much time into pvping and trying to learn how to counter enemy builds as they put into whining and crying on forums, they would have no problems with defeating those with supposedly higher amount of CP (being super lucky at the same time, because wow, the chances fresh new players joins PVP and first thing he finds is a hardcore PVP with OVER 9000 CP who just waited there ready to slaughter fresh meat".

you dont discuss you only allege things to the people

Rinmaethodain

I just want to remind this topic have an agenda to completely remove champion point system. The only thing that rewards players loyalty to the game and awards them for time they spend with it and play it.

There are topics that do not try to hate on CP and just point into fine tuning numbers on it. But this one hates generally on CP and demands its removal.

BigInGlenumbra

MaximusDargus wrote: »

BigInGlenumbra wrote: »

Removing it is stupid. It just needs to be changed because it awards the worst and smallest kinds of players (grinders) the most and it *will* discourage new players and already discourages some PvPers from playing the game, especially PvP.

If it takes a person 2 years to get 1000 CPs, and a new player joins and wishes to be a part of PvP, hits v14, plays until 200 CP and then realizes a person with 1k CP has significantly better stats, then it will really discourage that player to play 2 years just so he can fight fairly against people with higher CP in PvP, and that's assuming the player with 1k CP slows down with the CP.

Who the *$#@ will play a game mainly for the PvP just to find out he has to play for 2 years just to be competitive?

The CP system is now beginning to isolate and lower the PvP population to a few elite group with higher CPs.

And before another goober spouts the same "b-but skill matters more", the point isn't that skill does not matter, the point is that Champion stats give significant bonuses the higher amount of CPs you have attributed.

This is what Deltia was talking about.

PVP whine at its best. Once again trying to ruin game with silly "i wanted to kill him, he killed me, it must be something wrong with game because im pvp god". Maybe if they would put as much time into pvping and trying to learn how to counter enemy builds as they put into whining and crying on forums, they would have no problems with defeating those with supposedly higher amount of CP (being super lucky at the same time, because wow, the chances fresh new players joins PVP and first thing he finds is a hardcore PVP with OVER 9000 CP who just waited there ready to slaughter fresh meat".

You didn't respond to anything I said.

Are you a grinder? Because you weenies get really frantic and desperate when other players threaten your life-leeching lifestyle in any given MMO.

ragespell

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Imagine you join a sport club and go to competition and you just get owned in it. So you spent more time playing that sport. You then discover the people you meet at competition have been in this sport for 2 years... and it will take you 2 years to get to to a point to where you can even compete on that level.... but then those that owned you will have had 2 more years of advancement to be that much better than you because just as you were getting better they also were constantly competing with others and improving.

This
Is
Real
Life

Time is wisdom and experience. You achieve something training, exercising and spending time doing it.

You dont go to olympics to compete with people who are there for 2nd, 3rd, 4th time and when you get owned by them you start demanding to make all sports easier for you because you want to catch up with them and get gold medals too.

Its fine to look up to the top. Its NOT fine to demand that you want to get there right away or make people on top to be crippled and taken down to your own level.

What?!?!?! This is a game. People don't play a game for 10 years, usually. Why do you think every mmorpg have some kind of reset mechanism being it a new level cap or new itemization or both?
To keep people engaged.

In your scenario, after 2 years the game will be played only by your olympians. And I suspect that's not what ZOS wants.

ragespell

P.S. i'm not against CP per se, but how and how much we can gain them, must be revisited.
Every sane person can see this (if you are not a little kid with too much time at your disposal)

pmn100b16_ESO

ragespell wrote: »

P.S. i'm not against CP per se, but how and how much we can gain them, must be revisited.
Every sane person can see this (if you are not a little kid with too much time at your disposal)

Yeah its become pretty clear there's a bunch of bads out there in support of the system

crytantrevors

Pvp is fine as it stands, one thing i hate about every mmorpg is the whiners that complain and get the game nerfed... If they spent the time to grind out 1000 cp then they deserve to be ontop especialy since they would be the 1% of the pvp base and eventually everyone will catch up..... Pvp so far is the best in this mmo i have ever seen. I hope it doesnt get messed up by whiners who dunno howto play but this isnt my first rodeo i know eventually enough people will complain enough and ruin this game for everyone. But i still hope zos doesnt fall prey to this

Tolmos

To all the players saying this is about lazy people wanting stuff handed to them:

Think of it this way. You have a player today who plays 8 hours a day; a true hardcore player. He plays 8 hours a day, every day. This game is his life.

2 years after Champion Points are introduced, another hardcore player appears. He also plays 8 hours a day, every day. This game becomes his whole life.

If the second player meets the first in combat, he will die. Same as any other MMO. But that's ok; he plays 8 hours a day, every day, so his hard work will pay off and he'll be able to compete with that first player eventually, right?

LOLNOPE. Assuming the first player doesn't flat out quit the game, the second player will NEVER catch up. He will always be exactly 2 years behind the first, and all the hard work in the world will never change that. Why is he losing the battles? Not for a lack of hard work, but because he is given a seniority handicap; the game is literally HANDING the fight to the first player simply as a reward for starting first.

This isn't a matter of casual vs hardcore. This is anyone vs anyone; only 1 successful MMO (EVE) has ever succeeded on creating a system where new players can NEVER catch up to older players, shy of those older players quitting. And even EVE put limits, with scaling SP gain times and caps on how good someone can get at a particular thing.

The entire idea sounds like a bad joke, to be honest.

Tolmos

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Imagine you join a sport club and go to competition and you just get owned in it. So you spent more time playing that sport. You then discover the people you meet at competition have been in this sport for 2 years... and it will take you 2 years to get to to a point to where you can even compete on that level.... but then those that owned you will have had 2 more years of advancement to be that much better than you because just as you were getting better they also were constantly competing with others and improving.

This
Is
Real
Life

Really? So Michael Jordan is out there demolishing Kobe Bryant and Lebron James on the courts today because he has all those years of experience and is still strong and fit and healthy as he ever was?

Oh wait, he's not. He hit a "cap" in what he could do (age).

You want the game to be like real life? CP needs a cap. You REALLY want it to be like real life? After a few years your character gets weaker and you have to swap over to magic use cause you're now old and frail.

This shaping games like real life stuff is fun, huh? =D

Cogo

This thread makes me think of,

" - I want to win the world cup in football and be the best player in the world! Nerf all other teams so I can win!"

The champion system is great. It needs tweaking in regards to Cyrodiil and some values.
So what if someone else have more CPs or anything then me? It's not like I can't get the same CPs as everyone else. Takes time, sure...so?

If you are Vet rank 2, should Vet rank 14 be removed because they are more powerful then you right now? Or only stall everyone else until YOU get vet 14?

If you had 100 gold and someone else have 100.000 gold, do you want gold removed?

I wonder if those who want a cap on CPs, would still want that if they had more CPs then others.

ch.ris317b14_ESO

BugCollector wrote: »

There's already a couple of players with 1000 CP. The gap just keeps on growing and growing between these grinders and newbie players. They have no way to catch up, even with ZOS's catch up program.

My suggestion is to get completely rid of the Champion System, BUT compensate the grinders, who have 400 or more CP, with a unique title and mount or something.

Champion System is the cause of imbalance. Listen before it's too late.

Should just do away with levels, VR, AND CP....

Skill lines should be the only progression, add a crap ton more of them and make them more exp