Champion Points Catch Up Mechanic Concept

Cuyler

F7sus4 wrote: »

Most people forget that once you'll max your main CP attribute which happens around 400 CP only (and not 3600 CP) - getting a total max of 25% damage/healing boost - that's it, you won't be getting more. Never ever. This wont' change whether you'll have 1001 CPs or 3599 CPs.

Where did you get these numbers? is there a link to the analysis. I've heard all sorts of things from 25% to 50% more damage after 3600 CPs.

I get it that maxing one major attribute (ie.elemental expert) would net 25% more damage, but I can assume that maxing other passives like staff expert and elfborn (for mag builds) along with the base attr increases may push the total damage increase above 50%. Well I'd like to see a true analysis of it anyhow.

@Gidorick maybe you could provide if you have time?

nimander99

Gidorick wrote: »

That pretty much what this concept would do... in effect @Nifty2g. It would also be a dynamically shifting required total, depending on how many CPs the top player has.

There are CP hard caps @nimander99? Besides the 3600 total?

@Gidorick the strength of our abilities have hard caps is what i mean, for instance, spell mitigation can only ever be 50% of damage, same for armor, so any point spent that increases abilities over a limit like that does not calculate (I'm going off my memory on this from hearing a gentleman talk about it during ESO Live in January)

Gidorick

nimander99 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

That pretty much what this concept would do... in effect @Nifty2g. It would also be a dynamically shifting required total, depending on how many CPs the top player has.

There are CP hard caps @nimander99? Besides the 3600 total?

@Gidorick the strength of our abilities have hard caps is what i mean, for instance, spell mitigation can only ever be 50% of damage, same for armor, so any point spent that increases abilities over a limit like that does not calculate (I'm going off my memory on this from hearing a gentleman talk about it during ESO Live in January)

Oh! I was not aware. That's interesting. I wonder what the specific caps are.

Leandor

I'm pretty sure that the onlyhard caps in the game are resistances (50% mitigation for both)

halfbadger

Cuyler wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Most people forget that once you'll max your main CP attribute which happens around 400 CP only (and not 3600 CP) - getting a total max of 25% damage/healing boost - that's it, you won't be getting more. Never ever. This wont' change whether you'll have 1001 CPs or 3599 CPs.

Where did you get these numbers? is there a link to the analysis. I've heard all sorts of things from 25% to 50% more damage after 3600 CPs.

I get it that maxing one major attribute (ie.elemental expert) would net 25% more damage, but I can assume that maxing other passives like staff expert and elfborn (for mag builds) along with the base attr increases may push the total damage increase above 50%. Well I'd like to see a true analysis of it anyhow.

@Gidorick maybe you could provide if you have time?

With 3600 CPs you deal 2 times the damage and have 2 times the effective health of 0 CPs.

Furor

halfbadger wrote: »

With 3600 CPs you deal 2 times the damage and have 2 times the effective health of 0 CPs.

3,600CP does not give you a 200% damage increase...?

Please explain.

halfbadger

Furor wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

With 3600 CPs you deal 2 times the damage and have 2 times the effective health of 0 CPs.

3,600CP does not give you a 200% damage increase...?

Please explain.

I did not say 3600 CPs gives you a 200% damage increase. I said it gives you a 100% damage increase which can be seen if you go onto the pts and do a dps test with 0 CPs and a dps test with 3600 CPs.

Furor

halfbadger wrote: »

I did not say 3600 CPs gives you a 200% damage increase. I said it gives you a 100% damage increase which can be seen if you go onto the pts and do a dps test with 0 CPs and a dps test with 3600 CPs.

Please don't confuse 100% damage increase with 100% dps increase... They're two entirely different things.

Gidorick

Cuyler wrote: »

F7sus4 wrote: »

Most people forget that once you'll max your main CP attribute which happens around 400 CP only (and not 3600 CP) - getting a total max of 25% damage/healing boost - that's it, you won't be getting more. Never ever. This wont' change whether you'll have 1001 CPs or 3599 CPs.

Where did you get these numbers? is there a link to the analysis. I've heard all sorts of things from 25% to 50% more damage after 3600 CPs.

I get it that maxing one major attribute (ie.elemental expert) would net 25% more damage, but I can assume that maxing other passives like staff expert and elfborn (for mag builds) along with the base attr increases may push the total damage increase above 50%. Well I'd like to see a true analysis of it anyhow.

@Gidorick maybe you could provide if you have time?

There's actually some pretty analytics of the champion points here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150690/champion-system-comprehensive-chart-for-pve

nimander99

Gidorick wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

That pretty much what this concept would do... in effect @Nifty2g. It would also be a dynamically shifting required total, depending on how many CPs the top player has.

There are CP hard caps @nimander99? Besides the 3600 total?

@Gidorick the strength of our abilities have hard caps is what i mean, for instance, spell mitigation can only ever be 50% of damage, same for armor, so any point spent that increases abilities over a limit like that does not calculate (I'm going off my memory on this from hearing a gentleman talk about it during ESO Live in January)

Oh! I was not aware. That's interesting. I wonder what the specific caps are.

That I would like to know as well, I bet (though this is just a guess) there are hard caps for other stats as well. I wish someone would make a Hard Cap addon like the outdated Softcaps.

halfbadger

Furor wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

I did not say 3600 CPs gives you a 200% damage increase. I said it gives you a 100% damage increase which can be seen if you go onto the pts and do a dps test with 0 CPs and a dps test with 3600 CPs.

100 CP gives you a 25% damage increase, how are you getting a 100% damage increase?

You get 50% bonus max health, mana and stamina from having 3000 CPs.

You get 20% increased damage from max stamina
You get 25% increased physical damage.
You get 15% increased damage from the crit damage and crit chance increase.
You get 25% increased damage to light attacks which equates to about 5% increased damage.
You get up to 25% increased damage from the 25% armour pen.

You can cast twice as many abilities before running out of stamina if you had 0 stamina regen.

Furor

halfbadger wrote: »

With 3600 CPs you deal 2 times the damage and have 2 times the effective health of 0 CPs.

halfbadger wrote: »

You get 50% bonus max health, mana and stamina from having 3000 CPs.

Your numbers just changed from 2 times the effective health (a 100% increase to max health) to a 50% bonus to max health.

You're very inconsistent with your examples

halfbadger

Furor wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

With 3600 CPs you deal 2 times the damage and have 2 times the effective health of 0 CPs.

halfbadger wrote: »

You get 50% bonus max health, mana and stamina from having 3000 CPs.

Your numbers just changed from 2 times the effective health (a 100% increase to max health) to a 50% bonus to max health.

You're very inconsistent with your examples

effective health is not the same as max health

If you have 1.5 times the health you did before and you have 25% damage reduction then your effective health is 1.5/0.75=2 times your effective health before putting points into the champion system.

Rune_Relic

I still want to see this law written in stone that says more time invested + grinding = more power.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that everyone leaves MMOs specifically because of such bias ?
So saying "because MMO" is literally saying "lets make the same mistakes everyone else has made".
And no doubt why you are all here to try something different as the last MMO didn't cut it.

I am not saying we don't want progression.
No one wants to sit on their thumbs getting bored to death.
Endless progressions is what everyone wants.
I just don't see how endless progressions translates to ...must become more powerful than everyone else too.

This is a game for everyone to enjoy by being competitive using the skills provided (ie game experience).
Being competitive because you have better gear, weapons, health, stamina, magicka is no reflection on player skill.
Winning by OP stats through grinding or cash just panders to people with ego issues.
Having endless supply of time or cash should not guarantee victory.
Experience and practice should.

If you need OP stats to win....you need to L2P

This aside, how many of you complain stuff is too easy ?
Yet no one seems to understand this is to compensate for the bottom player created by the power gap.
Remove the power gap and the content will be scaled to suit everyone.
Increasing the power gap just means content will feel easier and easier...to those leet gods with all the time and money in the world.
Yes that's YOU....the ones defending time = more power
Complaining that stuff was nerfed... because of the power gap YOU demand.

Yinmaigao

MaximumAttackG wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Furor wrote: »

I posted this on anotheotherum but I'll post it here.

MMORPGs arehe land of equal opportunity not the land of equality.
It's time people stopped confusing the two.

I can understand having a reduced cost for the first "400" (Just using this number as an example) champion points in maybe a year from now. This system only released in March...

This is lateral progression. This keeps people wanting to log on because they feel they have something worth logging on for.


Someone had a great post relating this to a job which I'll paraphrase:

"Person A and Person B have the SAME job and get paid the SAME hourly wage.
Person A works 12 hours a day Person B works 3 hours a day.

Person B complains that Person A has more money then them."

.... What?

Comparing the two is like comparing someone who is lost and surviving in the wilderness to someone who is camping.

literally made no sense at all.

and new players have plenty of content to play with while they catch up ( without a "catch up")

As you are level 35, you do not have the perspective other people do of this situation.

Once you sit max level, content dries up very quickly, and CPs are not gained until veteran content.

When they did the CP roll-out, Vet 14's were awarded 75 CP. The average "new" Vet 14 makes 35 on the progress, which already put's them at a disadvantage. Couple this with the fact that there are many players who have 700+, it is a daunting task for new players. Add on to this that the only "effective way" to quickly gain CP is to grind somewhere (in a vet 10 zone, so not intuitive for a new player) where the spawn points are over run by the same people pulling far ahead.... or you can grind vDSA, which is not really an effective option for a new player.

Furor

halfbadger wrote: »

You get 50% bonus max health, mana and stamina from having 3000 CPs.

There aren't any Champion Points for increased health %?

Yinmaigao

Furor wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

You get 50% bonus max health, mana and stamina from having 3000 CPs.

There aren't any Champion Points for increased health %?

Every point you use boosts the primary state associated with it.

Red = health
Green = stamina
Blue = magicka

G0ku

MaximumAttackG wrote: »

G0ku wrote: »

MaximumAttackG wrote: »

Ok, lets say Player A played 100 hours to get to level 50, and another 200hours to get his character maxed out for the current version of the game.

then lets say they come up with some gap closer like the one that was mentioned and made it faster to hit the ceiling to let new players catch up. lets say this saves a player 100 hours.

just leaving this here for the lols:

Dunmer DK Level 1 to VR 14: played 3 days. 10 hours 40 Minutes - at least 35 CP´s while leveling - 20 hours of Ambrosia OP

Obviously those were hypothetical hours...

Don´t quite understand... there are people doing the leveling even faster, I did the mainquest until the VR5 area to get access to VR6-VR10 area and then grinded it out... After getting VR14 i typed /played into console and got these numbers...

Rune_Relic

Furor wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

You get 50% bonus max health, mana and stamina from having 3000 CPs.

There aren't any Champion Points for increased health %?

Every CP in Mage increases magicka
Every CP in thief increases stamina.
Every CP in warrior increases health.
http://asolutionaday.com/calculators-index/

This extends right upto 3000CP in total or 1000cp in stamina/magicka/stamina.
At this point Stamina is +50% more than base, magicka is +50% more than base and Health is +50% more than base.

You really think people are grinding CP just for the passives ?
They are levelling up with every CP with 3600 levels instead of 14.
All the bonuses apply to these increase stats to give a double whammy.

Bit like giving a child a gun.
They are never gonna give it back when they realise the power over others it gives them.

Furor

@Rune_Relic I actually did think it was just the passives but that makes perfect sense! Sorry, I just came back a few weeks ago after quitting shortly after release

Rune_Relic

Furor wrote: »

@Rune_Relic I actually did think it was just the passives but that makes perfect sense! Sorry, I just came back a few weeks ago after quitting shortly after release

No problem. Many seem surprised stats grow too and appear completely oblivious.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

If someone spent the time to earn 3600 CP they deserve all the perks. Do you guys have any idea how long that would take? From what I understand its 3 years played time or if you run xp boosts 24/7 its 1.5 years of played time. Thats an insane amount of time to be playing this game. If I spent 3 years played time and some battle leveled noob kicked my butt Id burn my ESO DVD and molag bal statue.

Leandor

The problem with your percentages is simple: These are from base stats. One has approximately 8000 stamina and magicka and 11000 health as base stat. 50% increase makes that 4000 respectively 5500 bonus from CP. Current values are around 20k for primary stat as minimum. 4000 is not 50% but 20% increase. This alone makes your calculated numbers completely bonkers.

For a magicka stacking sorc with 32k magicka, the 4000 point increase are only a 12.5% increase, even less than in the example before.

Since the stat value increase from spending CP is a fixed value and not relational, your numbers are exaggerated.

halfbadger

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If someone spent the time to earn 3600 CP they deserve all the perks. Do you guys have any idea how long that would take? From what I understand its 3 years played time or if you run xp boosts 24/7 its 1.5 years of played time. Thats an insane amount of time to be playing this game. If I spent 3 years played time and some battle leveled noob kicked my butt Id burn my ESO DVD and molag bal statue.

Should eso be p2w as well then?
You spend time in real life earning money instead of playing eso so you should be able to buy champion points with the money that you have spent time getting.

For it to take someone 1.5 years of play time they would need to be playing without hands and with their eyes shut.

Realistically how much exp do you think someone can earn, while grinding, per hour with an exp pot on?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

halfbadger wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If someone spent the time to earn 3600 CP they deserve all the perks. Do you guys have any idea how long that would take? From what I understand its 3 years played time or if you run xp boosts 24/7 its 1.5 years of played time. Thats an insane amount of time to be playing this game. If I spent 3 years played time and some battle leveled noob kicked my butt Id burn my ESO DVD and molag bal statue.

Should eso be p2w as well then?
You spend time in real life earning money instead of playing eso so you should be able to buy champion points with the money that you have spent time getting.

For it to take someone 1.5 years of play time they would need to be playing without hands and with their eyes shut.

Realistically how much exp do you think someone can earn, while grinding, per hour with an exp pot on?

Google "strawman argument".

Gidorick

I completely understand players wanting to retain their power and not liking the idea of newer players being allowed to catch up to them, but high-level players have to at least understand the issue with the gap.

Do any high-level players have any thoughts on what can be done about the gap that will grow as time goes on between older payers and new players? What can ZOS do to encourage those players to play without stepping on your toes?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Gidorick wrote: »

I completely understand players wanting to retain their power and not liking the idea of newer players being allowed to catch up to them, but high-level players have to at least understand the issue with the gap.

Do any high-level players have any thoughts on what can be done about the gap that will grow as time goes on between older payers and new players? What can ZOS do to encourage those players to play without stepping on your toes?

They already said they are working on a mechanic to give new players the first 400 at a faster rate. They also have battle leveling in VR campaigns. So you will be battle leveled to vr14. Personally thats more than enough in my opinion.

halfbadger

Leandor wrote: »

The problem with your percentages is simple: These are from base stats. One has approximately 8000 stamina and magicka and 11000 health as base stat. 50% increase makes that 4000 respectively 5500 bonus from CP. Current values are around 20k for primary stat as minimum. 4000 is not 50% but 20% increase. This alone makes your calculated numbers completely bonkers.

For a magicka stacking sorc with 32k magicka, the 4000 point increase are only a 12.5% increase, even less than in the example before.

Since the stat value increase from spending CP is a fixed value and not relational, your numbers are exaggerated.

No. Wrong.

0 CPs:
http://i.imgur.com/aNP1Hry.jpg

3600 CPs:
http://i.imgur.com/T5KlC9X.jpg

Both pictures were taken while wearing the medium armour that the pts templates are given.

halfbadger

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If someone spent the time to earn 3600 CP they deserve all the perks. Do you guys have any idea how long that would take? From what I understand its 3 years played time or if you run xp boosts 24/7 its 1.5 years of played time. Thats an insane amount of time to be playing this game. If I spent 3 years played time and some battle leveled noob kicked my butt Id burn my ESO DVD and molag bal statue.

Should eso be p2w as well then?
You spend time in real life earning money instead of playing eso so you should be able to buy champion points with the money that you have spent time getting.

For it to take someone 1.5 years of play time they would need to be playing without hands and with their eyes shut.

Realistically how much exp do you think someone can earn, while grinding, per hour with an exp pot on?

Google "strawman argument".

You have successfully avoided answering one of my questions again. Good job!

Gidorick

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I completely understand players wanting to retain their power and not liking the idea of newer players being allowed to catch up to them, but high-level players have to at least understand the issue with the gap.

Do any high-level players have any thoughts on what can be done about the gap that will grow as time goes on between older payers and new players? What can ZOS do to encourage those players to play without stepping on your toes?

They already said they are working on a mechanic to give new players the first 400 at a faster rate. They also have battle leveling in VR campaigns. So you will be battle leveled to vr14. Personally thats more than enough in my opinion.

I really can't make that assessment until they announce how they're going to allow the first 400 to be earned at a faster rate.

If they simply lower the amount of XP required for the first 400 CP, I think they will end up doing it on a semi-regular basis. Once... twice a year they'll lower the amount of XP needed. for the next 400 CP

1st CP Balance: First 400 CP

• Up to 400 CP costs 200K

2nd CP Balance: First 800CP

• 400 CP costs 100K
• 400 CP costs 200K

3rd CP Balance: First1200CP

• 400 CP costs 50K
• 400 CP costs 100K
• 400 CP costs 200K

4th CP Balance: First 1600CP

• 400 CP costs 25K
• 400 CP costs 50K
• 400 CP costs 100K
• 400 CP costs 200K

Etc. Etc. Etc.

I don't care much for this concept I don't like the regular tinkering. think the regular tinkering does more of a disservice to long time players than establishing a mechanic and just letting that mechanic function.