Champion Points Catch Up Mechanic Concept

Dixa · June 2015

this is not everquest with 12,000 aa's. this is not needed.

the only thing champion points are really doing is highlighting further already existing balance issues. the underlying issues have to be addressed.

and quite frankly it is like any AA system - if you want more of it, play more.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · June 2015

I dont think they will ever have 400 cp cost only 25k xp. Thats like 30 minutes of questing.

Gidorick · June 2015

Thanks for posting that @halfbadger!. Those actually have quite an impact on a concept I'm working on now.

Gidorick · June 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I dont think they will ever have 400 cp cost only 25k xp. Thats like 30 minutes of questing.

It was more demonstrating the concept than proposing actual numbers.

I had to look up EQ:AA @Dixa. Interesting.

RazzPitazz · June 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

I dont think they will ever have 400 cp cost only 25k xp. Thats like 30 minutes of questing.

Agreed, but his main concern was that they keep lowering the xp needed until the value of CP itself is deflated, making it another pointless stat grind.

Furor · June 2015

halfbadger wrote: »

No. Wrong.

I'm pretty sure when I'm sitting on 33,000 magicka unbuffed on my Nightblade when I have 3,600 CP I'm not going to have 49,500 magicka unbuffed.....

halfbadger · June 2015

Furor wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

No. Wrong.

I'm pretty sure when I'm sitting on 33,000 magicka unbuffed on my Nightblade when I have 3,600 CP I'm not going to have 49,500 magicka unbuffed.....

Well done you can multiply a number by 1.5.

Gidorick · July 2015

With @Deltia voicing his opinion on CP gab being an issue, I thought I'd bring attention to this thread.

I still think this is the MOST effective way to handle CPs and I've yet to hear a good reason why this wouldn't work & benefit everyone and every play style. It wouldn't cap players to allow others to catch up yet it would allow players to earn ranks more quickly so the gap isn't as broad as it will eventually be.

Gidorick · July 2015

lathbury wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Champion System needs an ACTUAL Catch-Up Mechanic. Simply lowering XP required for X number of CPs or Capping CPs only provides temporary solutions.
The benefit to lowering XP required for X number of CPs doesn't benefit those who have to earn the next CP after they earn whatever the amount of CPs are. At that point we will simply have the same problem we have now... it's just that most players will have gotten an easy handful of CPs.

Capping CPs actively hinders players who like to grind so that players beneath them can catch up. It also doesn't address that in 2 years players will be running around with 2500 CPs and new players will be faced with the exact same problem we are trying to avoid.

I have this in a separate thread but everyone seems to have latched onto this thread to post ideas so... here it goes:

Gidorick wrote: »

There is currently quite a bit of concern regarding player catching up to legacy players when it comes to Champion Points (CP). Well, here’s my suggestion:

@ZOS should implement a curved buff scale so that the lower number of CPs a character has in comparison to the highest number of CPs that any character has on a server, the faster that character earns CPs.

A player with 100 CPs would earn their next CP faster if the highest number of CPs on the server is 1000 than they would if the highest number of CPs was only 500. The higher the maximum number of CPs that has been earned on the server, the faster those with a lower number of CPs will earn Champion Points.

Using this CP XO Buff Percentage, CPs will not be earned any faster by the community, but players would be able to climb that CP ladder more quickly. Using the maximum number of CPs to determine the buff also means that the higher the number of CPs that have been earned, the faster lower CP earners will be able to catch up. The highest possible Buff percentage could also be determined by the highest number of CPs earned on the server.

Using two scales, if the most CPs that any player currently has is 600 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 15%. This would leave us with the following approximations:
60 CP = 15% buff

300 CP = 12% buff

500 CP = 8% buff

These numbers increase dramatically the more CPs are earned. If the most CPs that any player has is 2500 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 210%. This would leave us with the following approximations:
100 CP = 210% buff

500 CP = 201% buff

1000 CP = 189% buff

2000 CP = 126% buff

Now, these specific percentages aren’t by any means gospel or exactly what I’m suggesting here. The rate of the curved scale of either the Buff Percentage or the Buff Rate could be altered one way or the other.

What I’m suggesting is a mechanic where there is a percentage of a buff applied to players who have less than the top number of CPs and that buff should be dependent on how many CPs the top player on the server has earned. This would not in any way change the rate of community XP gain, but would, instead, change the rate at which new players are able to catch up to older players. This mechanic should exist independently from and underneath Enlightenment, XP Pots, and Crown XP Scrolls.

These mechanics will close the inevitable CP gap but would not undermine the accomplishments of those players that have gone out and earned the most CPs.

Thoughts?

Original Thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

your solution while well thought out and presented while not an active cap is more of a rolling softcap so has the same short coming ie people not making any noticeable cp gains are liable to feel unjustly nerfed to allow other ''less dedicated fans'' to get a hand up. So the forum qq would erupt and we would have people quitting etc. also it does not address the scaling issue how do you scale dungeons etc by average cp? as you and I know that this would again not be an even playing field for things like speed runs etc. what about new content where do they set the bar? with challenging content imagine the complaints and community bitterness when ppl are expected to prove cp level for that.
It is also same set of problems the devs are gonna have with their solution. If they increase the diminishing returns players will feel they aren't progressing if they dont op players skewing leader boards and owning pvp.
also their solution does not address scaling hence vet rank increases to at least keep itemisation and dungeon scaling semi controlled.

Thanks for your input @lathbury. I'm quoting you in this thread to not derail the other.

In my concept the current CP gains wouldn't change. Top CP earners would gain CPs as quickly as they are now. Are you saying that people would feel nerfed because they're not getting the CP bonuses? Remember, the closer a player gets to the max level of CP the slower they will gain CPs, all the way down to the current rate of CP gain. No nerfs. Only buffs. Now... if the complaint is that a catch-up mechanic exists at all... I don't know what to say there

I wasn't aware they were going to scale anything according to CPs. I don't think Anything should be scaled or leveled on CP. CP should be a 100% completely adjacent leveling scheme to VR ranks dungeons/gear/etc. needs to be scaled off of VR/Level.

lathbury · July 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Champion System needs an ACTUAL Catch-Up Mechanic. Simply lowering XP required for X number of CPs or Capping CPs only provides temporary solutions.
The benefit to lowering XP required for X number of CPs doesn't benefit those who have to earn the next CP after they earn whatever the amount of CPs are. At that point we will simply have the same problem we have now... it's just that most players will have gotten an easy handful of CPs.

Capping CPs actively hinders players who like to grind so that players beneath them can catch up. It also doesn't address that in 2 years players will be running around with 2500 CPs and new players will be faced with the exact same problem we are trying to avoid.

I have this in a separate thread but everyone seems to have latched onto this thread to post ideas so... here it goes:

Gidorick wrote: »

There is currently quite a bit of concern regarding player catching up to legacy players when it comes to Champion Points (CP). Well, here’s my suggestion:

@ZOS should implement a curved buff scale so that the lower number of CPs a character has in comparison to the highest number of CPs that any character has on a server, the faster that character earns CPs.

A player with 100 CPs would earn their next CP faster if the highest number of CPs on the server is 1000 than they would if the highest number of CPs was only 500. The higher the maximum number of CPs that has been earned on the server, the faster those with a lower number of CPs will earn Champion Points.

Using this CP XO Buff Percentage, CPs will not be earned any faster by the community, but players would be able to climb that CP ladder more quickly. Using the maximum number of CPs to determine the buff also means that the higher the number of CPs that have been earned, the faster lower CP earners will be able to catch up. The highest possible Buff percentage could also be determined by the highest number of CPs earned on the server.

Using two scales, if the most CPs that any player currently has is 600 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 15%. This would leave us with the following approximations:
60 CP = 15% buff

300 CP = 12% buff

500 CP = 8% buff

These numbers increase dramatically the more CPs are earned. If the most CPs that any player has is 2500 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 210%. This would leave us with the following approximations:
100 CP = 210% buff

500 CP = 201% buff

1000 CP = 189% buff

2000 CP = 126% buff

Now, these specific percentages aren’t by any means gospel or exactly what I’m suggesting here. The rate of the curved scale of either the Buff Percentage or the Buff Rate could be altered one way or the other.

What I’m suggesting is a mechanic where there is a percentage of a buff applied to players who have less than the top number of CPs and that buff should be dependent on how many CPs the top player on the server has earned. This would not in any way change the rate of community XP gain, but would, instead, change the rate at which new players are able to catch up to older players. This mechanic should exist independently from and underneath Enlightenment, XP Pots, and Crown XP Scrolls.

These mechanics will close the inevitable CP gap but would not undermine the accomplishments of those players that have gone out and earned the most CPs.

Thoughts?

Original Thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

your solution while well thought out and presented while not an active cap is more of a rolling softcap so has the same short coming ie people not making any noticeable cp gains are liable to feel unjustly nerfed to allow other ''less dedicated fans'' to get a hand up. So the forum qq would erupt and we would have people quitting etc. also it does not address the scaling issue how do you scale dungeons etc by average cp? as you and I know that this would again not be an even playing field for things like speed runs etc. what about new content where do they set the bar? with challenging content imagine the complaints and community bitterness when ppl are expected to prove cp level for that.
It is also same set of problems the devs are gonna have with their solution. If they increase the diminishing returns players will feel they aren't progressing if they dont op players skewing leader boards and owning pvp.
also their solution does not address scaling hence vet rank increases to at least keep itemisation and dungeon scaling semi controlled.

Thanks for your input @lathbury. I'm quoting you in this thread to not derail the other.

In my concept the current CP gains wouldn't change. Top CP earners would gain CPs as quickly as they are now. Are you saying that people would feel nerfed because they're not getting the CP bonuses? Remember, the closer a player gets to the max level of CP the slower they will gain CPs, all the way down to the current rate of CP gain. No nerfs. Only buffs. Now... if the complaint is that a catch-up mechanic exists at all... I don't know what to say there

I wasn't aware they were going to scale anything according to CPs. I don't think Anything should be scaled or leveled on CP. CP should be a 100% completely adjacent leveling scheme to VR ranks dungeons/gear/etc. needs to be scaled off of VR/Level.

yeah any catch up mechanic will have its detractors I'm afraid. but the scaling thing is surely a must for things that have achievements and leader boards to keep as level a playing field as possible but also to ensure the content is not to hard leading to ppl quitting and also not total face roll. I don't see how this is possible while cp's exist.

Gidorick · July 2015

lathbury wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Champion System needs an ACTUAL Catch-Up Mechanic. Simply lowering XP required for X number of CPs or Capping CPs only provides temporary solutions.
The benefit to lowering XP required for X number of CPs doesn't benefit those who have to earn the next CP after they earn whatever the amount of CPs are. At that point we will simply have the same problem we have now... it's just that most players will have gotten an easy handful of CPs.

Capping CPs actively hinders players who like to grind so that players beneath them can catch up. It also doesn't address that in 2 years players will be running around with 2500 CPs and new players will be faced with the exact same problem we are trying to avoid.

I have this in a separate thread but everyone seems to have latched onto this thread to post ideas so... here it goes:

Gidorick wrote: »

There is currently quite a bit of concern regarding player catching up to legacy players when it comes to Champion Points (CP). Well, here’s my suggestion:

@ZOS should implement a curved buff scale so that the lower number of CPs a character has in comparison to the highest number of CPs that any character has on a server, the faster that character earns CPs.

A player with 100 CPs would earn their next CP faster if the highest number of CPs on the server is 1000 than they would if the highest number of CPs was only 500. The higher the maximum number of CPs that has been earned on the server, the faster those with a lower number of CPs will earn Champion Points.

Using this CP XO Buff Percentage, CPs will not be earned any faster by the community, but players would be able to climb that CP ladder more quickly. Using the maximum number of CPs to determine the buff also means that the higher the number of CPs that have been earned, the faster lower CP earners will be able to catch up. The highest possible Buff percentage could also be determined by the highest number of CPs earned on the server.

Using two scales, if the most CPs that any player currently has is 600 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 15%. This would leave us with the following approximations:
60 CP = 15% buff

300 CP = 12% buff

500 CP = 8% buff

These numbers increase dramatically the more CPs are earned. If the most CPs that any player has is 2500 CPs, the maximum buff any player can have is about 210%. This would leave us with the following approximations:
100 CP = 210% buff

500 CP = 201% buff

1000 CP = 189% buff

2000 CP = 126% buff

Now, these specific percentages aren’t by any means gospel or exactly what I’m suggesting here. The rate of the curved scale of either the Buff Percentage or the Buff Rate could be altered one way or the other.

What I’m suggesting is a mechanic where there is a percentage of a buff applied to players who have less than the top number of CPs and that buff should be dependent on how many CPs the top player on the server has earned. This would not in any way change the rate of community XP gain, but would, instead, change the rate at which new players are able to catch up to older players. This mechanic should exist independently from and underneath Enlightenment, XP Pots, and Crown XP Scrolls.

These mechanics will close the inevitable CP gap but would not undermine the accomplishments of those players that have gone out and earned the most CPs.

Thoughts?

Original Thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/184576/champion-points-catch-up-mechanic-concept/p1

your solution while well thought out and presented while not an active cap is more of a rolling softcap so has the same short coming ie people not making any noticeable cp gains are liable to feel unjustly nerfed to allow other ''less dedicated fans'' to get a hand up. So the forum qq would erupt and we would have people quitting etc. also it does not address the scaling issue how do you scale dungeons etc by average cp? as you and I know that this would again not be an even playing field for things like speed runs etc. what about new content where do they set the bar? with challenging content imagine the complaints and community bitterness when ppl are expected to prove cp level for that.
It is also same set of problems the devs are gonna have with their solution. If they increase the diminishing returns players will feel they aren't progressing if they dont op players skewing leader boards and owning pvp.
also their solution does not address scaling hence vet rank increases to at least keep itemisation and dungeon scaling semi controlled.

Thanks for your input @lathbury. I'm quoting you in this thread to not derail the other.

In my concept the current CP gains wouldn't change. Top CP earners would gain CPs as quickly as they are now. Are you saying that people would feel nerfed because they're not getting the CP bonuses? Remember, the closer a player gets to the max level of CP the slower they will gain CPs, all the way down to the current rate of CP gain. No nerfs. Only buffs. Now... if the complaint is that a catch-up mechanic exists at all... I don't know what to say there

I wasn't aware they were going to scale anything according to CPs. I don't think Anything should be scaled or leveled on CP. CP should be a 100% completely adjacent leveling scheme to VR ranks dungeons/gear/etc. needs to be scaled off of VR/Level.

yeah any catch up mechanic will have its detractors I'm afraid. but the scaling thing is surely a must for things that have achievements and leader boards to keep as level a playing field as possible but also to ensure the content is not to hard leading to ppl quitting and also not total face roll. I don't see how this is possible while cp's exist.

To be honest, I hadn't even considered how CPs can affect a players ability in leaderboard activities. Players DO earn CPs... so they should be able to reap those benefits... in PVP situations they have battle leveling that should take care of some of those issues. In a game where people progress and can improve skills and abilities by playing you will always have a power gap of some sort, that's just the nature of leveling.

I remember playing some FPS and I was just getting TROUNCED when I realized that one of the benefits of leveling up was a faster fire rate.

To create a level playing field ALL bonuses and skills would have to be leveled to be the same. The best that can be done is make it so players have the option to catch up to those who want/can spend much more time in game.

Gidorick · August 2015

I added a blub from another post that I thought enhanced this idea quite a bit.

@Attorneyatlawl, in one of his suggestions has a very similar idea but suggested the following:

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Take the champion levels of the top tenth or so of people playing the game who have logged in within the last month on the entire megaserver. Then, average them. This gives you a figure as to how many champion ranks the top XP earners in the game have right now.

I really like the idea of taking an average of the top ten percentage of players so everyone isn't just based off of the ONE highest player. This would also create a kind of competition between the top earners to go "above and beyond". to be the best of the best!

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · August 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Im fine with the system as it stands. I want them to focus now on more content. New zones. Stuff like that. For the past year they have been dinking around with game systems and we have had content stagnation for 9 months now. Leave the CP system alone please ZOS and focus on what players really want which is stuff to do and new places to explore.

If you think that the current player base can sustain this game then you don't understand the predicament that ZOS is under right now. Trying to attract new players is more revenue and you can't attract new players under the current system.

For example: I bought the game at a discount mind you. Why should I SUB and help out the game if I'm so behind the long timers. I did the Beta and was gone for a year just got back. I PVPed and literally these CP%$%$%$ just stand there while every low sub tries to pummel them and they just invis away . Doesn't sound like fun does it.

So how is ZOS suppose to attract new players with this kind of system. It might be FINE for you but for new players (new revenue) it's frustrating but I guess those of you who have been here for a long time don't understand that. Tell you what go into BWB as a 10 level with no CP and come back and tell me how you feel. Either way on Twitch LIve they already confirmed it it's going to happen with or without support of the long timers.

marco.cuevas.ventob14_ESO · August 2015

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

If they dont hurry up and put out some new zones there wont be any problem with catching up. The PC servers will be a ghost town with noone to catch up to.

This..

with Fall out 4 and MGSV coming out I might never come back if this continues.

Where is the incentive in creating ALTS to try out new class' in PVP if the CP people
just hand it to your $%$%$% they could go play with the VR people but that's just too hard
for them I guess. What we have here is equivalent to a Hacked player where he is invincible
the legit way and ZOS just gave them this mechanic which is OP and unfair.

Supernovas · August 2015

For what its worth, this is my experience. I recently came back to the game and was completely behind with cp, in fact i had 1 v12. For the past few months i have levelled another toon to v14 and have spent real money buying exp pots and have been grinding my little heart out.

Thus , i am gaining some ground, in fact i appreciate that now i can just buy the pots from in game due to the ambrosia recipe.
I understand that i have more time to spend to do this, but hey, this is a mmo, and whomever has the most time, benefits.
Why do you guys want zos to get rid of this option? Is it because you just dont want to spend ur time grinding, or spend money, or work hard for anything? I recommend playing a FPS game or maybe a moba, or just please quit complaining , and just start earning your points .
I wish you all a nice day.

Tolmos · August 2015

Tanaka_Khan wrote: »

Why should those of us who have been playing since day one have to change to accommodate new players? If new players start in any other MMO (lets say WOW) do they have the right to argue that all the older players should have their characters reduced so they are all on even ground? I think not!
Should someone who has more free time be penalized because some one else can only play half as much and not earn as many CP's?

People should just accept the game as it is or go look for another.

Unfortunately, down the road that is exactly what they will do. And that's what a lot of us are trying to curb.

I get it. I really do. Having the game stroke your ego and give you a seniority based stat advantage over your opponent makes you feel powerful, and that's a hard high to come down from. The first time you lose in an actual player skill battle to a new player, the mind can't help but wander to "Why is this possible? Why didn't the game help me out a bit?"

Unfortunately, that way of thinking is only good for the already established long time players. NEW players who want to compete will likely take your advice and head to greener pastures. And those of us that want actual longevity in the game, are willing to compromise at least some of our sense of entitlement and give them a way to do that. And if the cost of keeping an influx of new players means I have to risk losing to the actual player skill of some 2 month old character being played by a noob... well, small price to pay. My ego will live, and I'm sure yours will as well.

Gidorick · August 2015

Honestly it's about retaining players. Simple as that. If players are presented with a seemingly impossible (or actually impossible) task, they'll quit.

Let grinders grind. Don't cap (punish) them. Just enable others to catch up more quickly. The top 10% will ALWAYS be the top 10%. With my concept, players will gain CPs at lightning speed and slowly gain them more and more slowly until the earning is on even ground with the top earners.

I view this as an 'everyone wins' solution.