Assuming ZoS Removes Veteran Levels. What Happens To Attributes And Skill Points?

Gidorick · June 2015

spoqster wrote: »

There is a very simple solution. They can reward the 13 skill points and attribute bumps as a reward for reaching level 50. That would make it completely fair and provide a nice bit of motivation to reach max level.

If you want to make it a bit less drastic, you can award these for quests, such as 3 for killing Molag Bal, and another 5 for finishing Cadwell's Silver and Gold respectively. You could even split it up and award one for each zone. That way everyone could get it.

There is also the option to handle skill points and attribute bumps differently, by awarding the skill points (such as mentioned above) so that people don't have to create an alt just to fit in that crafting skill line, but to take away the attribute points. It will be a fair solution. It won't matter in PVP, since it is the same for all players. And in PVE, you'd have to change an enchantment or two, or do an attribute respec (which will be available for free) to keep your char above that magic 18k mark. The loss in dps you'd get from lowering mag/stam will be the same for everyone, so it will be fair.

All in all: Not a problem.

This is a pretty good idea. I still like my idea of converting them to levels and adding levels every month because we get extra CP and continued progression. If I'm going to be making XP, I like to have a bar to fill up besides the CP bar.... It think THAT is going to get really old... really fast.

But if converting VR to levels is out of the question I think what you have proposed is a very reasonable way to handle this. The Skill Point rewarded by zone then a little bonus for finishing Silver and Gold really seems like a great idea.

What about gear though? just bring everything down to level 50?

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Oh, and I don't think the Attribute Point bonus matters much if everyone is balanced to the new Level 50 Attribute Level. I wouldn't suspect doom and gloom when there are perfectly viable options available to ZoS on this.

While this will be true for PvP it will make a big difference in PvE since most of the end game bosses have an attack that do a lot of damage. That's why most end game groups want people to have at least 20k in health. So unless they rework the amount of health, magicka, stamina you get per point so that there is no effective change this will not work for both types of gameplay.

That's exactly what they would have to do. I'm not sure why people assume that attribute points would have anything to do with it at all. The skill point issue is the bigger issue and easily resolved. The attributes on the other hand would cap out at '49', and the game could easily be balanced off of that. I'm really not sure what is so confusing about this.

King Bozo · June 2015

The answer to the question...No one knows they only assume vet levels are going away.

Xjcon · June 2015

I don't understand why they need to reinvent the wheel just because some people don't want the leveling process to take a reasonable amount of time. Yes it's reasonable. If the leveling gets shortened then what? Endgame? I know they at one point said it but I still wouldn't be suprised if they scrap the idea dropping vet levels.

kevlarto_ESO · June 2015

Nothing, because in an ESO live they said you will still be doing Gold and Silver, they said they were going to make it a bit easier to access, what ever that means, there is no major revamp coming for this, instead of being call VRxx you will just be levelxx , I think a lot of people are in for a huge let down when this happens, but then again nothing has happened and by the time they get around to it could be something completely different..

spoqster · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

show previous quotes

spoqster wrote: »

There is a very simple solution. They can reward the 13 skill points and attribute bumps as a reward for reaching level 50. That would make it completely fair and provide a nice bit of motivation to reach max level.

If you want to make it a bit less drastic, you can award these for quests, such as 3 for killing Molag Bal, and another 5 for finishing Cadwell's Silver and Gold respectively. You could even split it up and award one for each zone. That way everyone could get it.

There is also the option to handle skill points and attribute bumps differently, by awarding the skill points (such as mentioned above) so that people don't have to create an alt just to fit in that crafting skill line, but to take away the attribute points. It will be a fair solution. It won't matter in PVP, since it is the same for all players. And in PVE, you'd have to change an enchantment or two, or do an attribute respec (which will be available for free) to keep your char above that magic 18k mark. The loss in dps you'd get from lowering mag/stam will be the same for everyone, so it will be fair.

All in all: Not a problem.

This is a pretty good idea. I still like my idea of converting them to levels and adding levels every month because we get extra CP and continued progression. If I'm going to be making XP, I like to have a bar to fill up besides the CP bar.... It think THAT is going to get really old... really fast.

But if converting VR to levels is out of the question I think what you have proposed is a very reasonable way to handle this. The Skill Point rewarded by zone then a little bonus for finishing Silver and Gold really seems like a great idea.

What about gear though? just bring everything down to level 50?

I think the gear matter worries the developers. If all veteran gear is leveled to 50, it will result in quite a bit of an outrage from all the players who have spent countless hours and millions of gold to get the best set pieces in gold v14. But I doubt the outrage will be bigger than over those lost hours of leveling/grinding from v1 to v14 in the first place. So alas. If they are going to remove the veteran ranks, there will be tears, one way or the other. And I believe in the end everyone will be happy that it will take them less time to pull up future alts to max level.

In terms of pve endgame not so much will change. You don't buy expensive gear, upgrade items to gold or cash in your gold keys until v14 anyway. The biggest change will probably be that there is less difference between dsa and vdsa, as they can't hand out v13 items anymore. But they can hand out purple master weapons (with purple enchantments), so that there is still motivation to complete the higher tier for the best enchantment. But better players prefer vdsa for the challenge anyway.

This whole topic of removing vet ranks and player motivation really leads to a more abstract and fundamental discussion about player motivation and video game design.

In an MMO, two completely different games are brought together and merged into one. On the one hand there is the traditional RPG, where character progression is part of the experience and it helps to engage players and draw them in if you make them stronger without them actually getting any better. On the other hand you have the sports element, where you create a platform for players to compete. These games don't necessarily need progression. Look at Counter Strike. It is hugely popular to this day, and there is almost zero progression. You start the same way, every session. And players get better by improving their own skills, rather than their gear, characters or whatever.

How do you meld these completely different paradigms together? Looking at it from a bit of a distance, WoWs solution of just slapping on more progression with each new expansion, seems a bit blunt and not terribly creative. Granted, it was successful enough, but every single WoW player I ever talked to admitted that s/he despises this treadmill, and many stopped playing because they got tired of it. It is my personal opinion that the times of treadmills are over. @Gidorick, I am not a big fan of your idea to turn vet ranks into levels and god forbid to add more each month.

I think there is a solution, though. It's clear that you need a level playing field for any competitive environment. Nobody would back away from a shootout with Lionel Messi. One would consider it an honor, and if he beats you, that is because he is better than you. But nobody would agree to play against someone else if your goal was bigger and theirs smaller. And that is precisely what levels mean. For no reason, other than spending time, one player is more powerful than another. Levels are poison for any competitive sport. Just imagine that for every year you played football your goal would be a foot smaller than your opponent's. Nobody would play that sport. On the other hand, we know that players grind out hours of content just to get that piece that is 1% better than the one they already have. So we know from experience that minuscule differences in quality are enough to keep players motivated. Thus you need a progression system that slows down exponentially and approaches an asymptote, that looks a bit like a flattened log curve. EA Sports' Fifa does that really well. If you put in a week of playtime and no money, you can build a team (read character) that can beat any other team. Every improvement beyond that takes progressively longer to achieve and is ultimately not necessary, as you can compensate with the right playing skill. People still spend massive amounts of money on it, mainly for vanity reasons, but they can't buy anything you can't get from improving your skills.

So from that perspective I would argue for taking away levels, rather than adding more. I'd prefer it if level 20 was the max level, and after reaching that you only get skill points but no power increases. That way you could jump into the game, play for a week and be ready to compete with experienced players. From that point on you'd have an asymptotic progression system (the CS) and you'd have a horizontal progression system (the skills). Getting more skill points will make you more variable, and allow for more ways to adapt and focus your build, rather than making it bluntly stronger. (I am a huge fan of horizontal progression, I think it is far superior to vertical progression.)

What about the people who are there for the RPG? Give them a great story! Nobody watches Game of Thrones because it makes their TV bigger, they watch it because the story captivates them. I want the same in an MMO. I want to reach max level quickly and a story that is so good that I play it simply because I want to see how it pans out.

Taking it a step further, I am not sure there is a fundamental need for even an asymptotic progression system. In the end there are only few fundamental mechanisms that ultimately engage players. The most prominent are (a) fame, (b) getting better and (c) story/knowledge.

A great MMO will provide

a level playing field for players to compete evenly (early endgame)
a complex combat/sport system, so players can actually learn it and improve --> (b) through practice
a complex horizontal progression system --> (b)
a complex and layered recognition system (leaderboards, titles, nameplates, etc.) so that everyone can carve out a bit of fame --> (a)
a great story that you want to consume as entertainment, regardless of progression or reward --> (c)

That's the recipe for success.

Sadly, ESO does not do brilliantly in all of these categories.

It takes stupidly long to reach v14, unless you grind like a madman. Grade F.
The fighting system (dps, tank, healer, pvp) and meta (dungeon tactics, pvp tactics) are great as they are easy to learn and hard to master. I think this is ESOs strongest suit. Grade A.
The horizontal progression system is a bit simple. There are only few viable sets and skill rotations to choose from. Grade C.
Too little here. The titles are great, but there is so much to be done. Grade D.
The story is good, but by forcing players to do it, they are turning many players against the story. Many players rush through it to get to max level and are then too bored to revisit it. IMHO it would be a better solution to completely decouple it from the progression system, and give it as a bonus to players, to indulge in after a few hours of dungeons or pvp. Grade B.

All in all I think ESO could have been/could be a much better game had/if they designed it in more modern way. Thank god they have good combat and a great story/art/atmosphere to carry it.

Gidorick · June 2015

That was a great read @spoqster! Your points have lead me to question why we have levels at all. Why even bother with leveling if players are so concerned with NOT being the biggest and the best? Just have a system that is pretty much all skill points to unlock abilities.

I personally feel like the issue that ESO, and many other MMO faces, is giving players meaningful goals and I have posted many suggestions about what could be done about that.

Players get tired of the "grind" because they do the same thing over and over to achieve that grind, not because of the grind itself. It's the monotony that players tire of, not the progression. Repeatables are a good thing to have and MMOs especially need them but when the repeatable BECOME the gameplay, players get bored.

I really think trying to find a better method of progression is kind of like treating the symptom and not the disease. Different progression won't make the same content less tedious. My concept of continued levels is for the carrot and won't make the content less tedious either.

ZOS needs to invest some time into systems and mechanics in ESO that are SELF sustainable. Random dungeons, Player Generated Activities (Guild quests), non-combat activities (racing, games, fishing, hunting) are all things that can keep a player engaged without adding more narrative content.

I wouldn't be surprised if post VR removal (if there is nothing else to progress TO except CP) it wouldn't be long before players will be coming on this forum to complain about how tedious of a grind CPs are. That they aren't rewarding enough. That the task before us is too grand.

progression facilitates content. Or... at least it SHOULD.

Nebthet78 · June 2015

Maybe what they need to do, instead of nerfing and changing VR levels is put a system in place where once a player plays through the game the first time (Both silver and gold), they then have the option for their alts to be upgraded immediately to V14, and all quests in all 1-50, silver and gold zones are then locked as if the player had already done them.

This way, those players who want immediate gratification of being V14 can do so, AND it ensures they cannot go back and do the quests they should have done in the first place to earn XP quicker, therefore making it a more level playing field.

Heck, maybe they could even sell this option in the Crown Store only.

BuggeX · June 2015

A solution, no the best, but it work.

1) you will get 1 Skillpoint an Attribut Point each 10 CPs to 130 = 13 Skill/Attribut.

2) You will get 13 Skill/Attribut with the Achivment when you hit lvl 50

MAOofDC · June 2015

BuggeX wrote: »

A solution, no the best, but it work.

1) you will get 1 Skillpoint an Attribut Point each 10 CPs to 130 = 13 Skill/Attribut.

2) You will get 13 Skill/Attribut with the Achivment when you hit lvl 50

Number 1 would be even more of a grind than getting to Vet 14. Each vet level currently takes 1,000,000 exp to get for a total of 13,000,000 exp.

Each Champion Point currently costs 400,000 exp to get. For 130 CPs it would take 52,000,000 exp or 4 times as much. Making that not a viable option.

olemanwinter · June 2015

Just solve this and the gear problem at the same time by making 64 total levels, making the XP per each of those levels in-line with regular non-vet levels, and convert VR5 gear to LVL55 gear, and so forth.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2015

spoqster wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gidorick wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

There is a very simple solution. They can reward the 13 skill points and attribute bumps as a reward for reaching level 50. That would make it completely fair and provide a nice bit of motivation to reach max level.

If you want to make it a bit less drastic, you can award these for quests, such as 3 for killing Molag Bal, and another 5 for finishing Cadwell's Silver and Gold respectively. You could even split it up and award one for each zone. That way everyone could get it.

There is also the option to handle skill points and attribute bumps differently, by awarding the skill points (such as mentioned above) so that people don't have to create an alt just to fit in that crafting skill line, but to take away the attribute points. It will be a fair solution. It won't matter in PVP, since it is the same for all players. And in PVE, you'd have to change an enchantment or two, or do an attribute respec (which will be available for free) to keep your char above that magic 18k mark. The loss in dps you'd get from lowering mag/stam will be the same for everyone, so it will be fair.

All in all: Not a problem.

This is a pretty good idea. I still like my idea of converting them to levels and adding levels every month because we get extra CP and continued progression. If I'm going to be making XP, I like to have a bar to fill up besides the CP bar.... It think THAT is going to get really old... really fast.

But if converting VR to levels is out of the question I think what you have proposed is a very reasonable way to handle this. The Skill Point rewarded by zone then a little bonus for finishing Silver and Gold really seems like a great idea.

What about gear though? just bring everything down to level 50?

I think the gear matter worries the developers. If all veteran gear is leveled to 50, it will result in quite a bit of an outrage from all the players who have spent countless hours and millions of gold to get the best set pieces in gold v14. But I doubt the outrage will be bigger than over those lost hours of leveling/grinding from v1 to v14 in the first place. So alas. If they are going to remove the veteran ranks, there will be tears, one way or the other. And I believe in the end everyone will be happy that it will take them less time to pull up future alts to max level.

In terms of pve endgame not so much will change. You don't buy expensive gear, upgrade items to gold or cash in your gold keys until v14 anyway. The biggest change will probably be that there is less difference between dsa and vdsa, as they can't hand out v13 items anymore. But they can hand out purple master weapons (with purple enchantments), so that there is still motivation to complete the higher tier for the best enchantment. But better players prefer vdsa for the challenge anyway.

This whole topic of removing vet ranks and player motivation really leads to a more abstract and fundamental discussion about player motivation and video game design.

In an MMO, two completely different games are brought together and merged into one. On the one hand there is the traditional RPG, where character progression is part of the experience and it helps to engage players and draw them in if you make them stronger without them actually getting any better. On the other hand you have the sports element, where you create a platform for players to compete. These games don't necessarily need progression. Look at Counter Strike. It is hugely popular to this day, and there is almost zero progression. You start the same way, every session. And players get better by improving their own skills, rather than their gear, characters or whatever.

How do you meld these completely different paradigms together? Looking at it from a bit of a distance, WoWs solution of just slapping on more progression with each new expansion, seems a bit blunt and not terribly creative. Granted, it was successful enough, but every single WoW player I ever talked to admitted that s/he despises this treadmill, and many stopped playing because they got tired of it. It is my personal opinion that the times of treadmills are over. @Gidorick, I am not a big fan of your idea to turn vet ranks into levels and god forbid to add more each month.

I think there is a solution, though. It's clear that you need a level playing field for any competitive environment. Nobody would back away from a shootout with Lionel Messi. One would consider it an honor, and if he beats you, that is because he is better than you. But nobody would agree to play against someone else if your goal was bigger and theirs smaller. And that is precisely what levels mean. For no reason, other than spending time, one player is more powerful than another. Levels are poison for any competitive sport. Just imagine that for every year you played football your goal would be a foot smaller than your opponent's. Nobody would play that sport. On the other hand, we know that players grind out hours of content just to get that piece that is 1% better than the one they already have. So we know from experience that minuscule differences in quality are enough to keep players motivated. Thus you need a progression system that slows down exponentially and approaches an asymptote, that looks a bit like a flattened log curve. EA Sports' Fifa does that really well. If you put in a week of playtime and no money, you can build a team (read character) that can beat any other team. Every improvement beyond that takes progressively longer to achieve and is ultimately not necessary, as you can compensate with the right playing skill. People still spend massive amounts of money on it, mainly for vanity reasons, but they can't buy anything you can't get from improving your skills.

So from that perspective I would argue for taking away levels, rather than adding more. I'd prefer it if level 20 was the max level, and after reaching that you only get skill points but no power increases. That way you could jump into the game, play for a week and be ready to compete with experienced players. From that point on you'd have an asymptotic progression system (the CS) and you'd have a horizontal progression system (the skills). Getting more skill points will make you more variable, and allow for more ways to adapt and focus your build, rather than making it bluntly stronger. (I am a huge fan of horizontal progression, I think it is far superior to vertical progression.)

What about the people who are there for the RPG? Give them a great story! Nobody watches Game of Thrones because it makes their TV bigger, they watch it because the story captivates them. I want the same in an MMO. I want to reach max level quickly and a story that is so good that I play it simply because I want to see how it pans out.

Taking it a step further, I am not sure there is a fundamental need for even an asymptotic progression system. In the end there are only few fundamental mechanisms that ultimately engage players. The most prominent are (a) fame, (b) getting better and (c) story/knowledge.

A great MMO will provide
a level playing field for players to compete evenly (early endgame)

a complex combat/sport system, so players can actually learn it and improve --> (b) through practice

a complex horizontal progression system --> (b)

a complex and layered recognition system (leaderboards, titles, nameplates, etc.) so that everyone can carve out a bit of fame --> (a)

a great story that you want to consume as entertainment, regardless of progression or reward --> (c)

That's the recipe for success.

Sadly, ESO does not do brilliantly in all of these categories.
It takes stupidly long to reach v14, unless you grind like a madman. Grade F.

The fighting system (dps, tank, healer, pvp) and meta (dungeon tactics, pvp tactics) are great as they are easy to learn and hard to master. I think this is ESOs strongest suit. Grade A.

The horizontal progression system is a bit simple. There are only few viable sets and skill rotations to choose from. Grade C.

Too little here. The titles are great, but there is so much to be done. Grade D.

The story is good, but by forcing players to do it, they are turning many players against the story. Many players rush through it to get to max level and are then too bored to revisit it. IMHO it would be a better solution to completely decouple it from the progression system, and give it as a bonus to players, to indulge in after a few hours of dungeons or pvp. Grade B.

All in all I think ESO could have been/could be a much better game had/if they designed it in more modern way. Thank god they have good combat and a great story/art/atmosphere to carry it.

You really sum up quite a lot of what I've said about this issue before and to great detail. I agree with you about this. I would love to see a huge list of skills we can learn and work with, and slot on our bar. Choice of abilities to slot on the bar would be a strategic choice. I really believe this would be great for gameplay, and continue to give players something to do.

spoqster · June 2015

I agree with you @Gidorick. I am not convinced that we need levels in MMOs. Levels were introduced in classical pen and paper RPGs as an abstract representation of a player's skill. It made sense in that context and was necessary to have a metric for combat. As RPGs moved to the screen combat systems became more and more complex and dynamic. The more a combat system allows to distinguish between different levels of player skill, the less the need for actual character levels.

Essentially, the better the content is, the less progression a game needs.

PVP is already a good example. Rank progression is PVP is extremely slow and most people have no chance at ever becoming emperor. But still people play in Cyrodiil without getting tired of it. That's because the gameplay does not feel as repeatable. Although all keeps look the same and you pretty much do the same things every session, capturing a keep is never the same as before. There are always different enemies that react differently.

People don't get tired of football although it is the same game every time, over and over again, because no two games ever play out the same way. A good game needs to be created so that it allows that kind of complexity.

The only way to do that in PVE is with a sandbox design. I believe player generated content is the key. Imagine how much fun it would be to walk through Daggerfall if the city changes every day because player build and tear down houses. Or how much fun it would be to have player-generated quests, where players hire other players to retrieve artifcacts, rescue someone or craft something.

Another good solution is to focus more heavily on the fame element and introduce progression there. Take the dungeons for example. They did a fantastic job on those and the system with the dailies is decent. They could add a progression system where they just scale up the mobs inside and have the dungeon level increase from 1 (accessible for most players) to infinity. That would give players of any skill the motivation to beat the dungeon at the next level, and would provide a very accurate measure of the power of a character. It's very specific to beat Spindleclutch at level X, vs "having a v14" which implies a great range of power and skill. And players should get the recognition for that, by getting it displayed on a public character profile.

Instead, they dumbed down the dungeons with 1.6 to make them more accessible, especially for non CP players. Now even Veteran Dungeons are too boring to do for experienced players. And this I don't understand. ZOS created this vast amount of great content, and they have so many opportunities to use it within systems that keep players engaged for years, but they go wasted. It almost seems like they are missing the creativity to create game mechanics that allow for both challenge and accessibility.

sparafucilsarwb17_ESO · June 2015

I think if vet levels were going to be removed it would\should have been done before console launch.

byrom101b16_ESO · June 2015

This isn't hard really.

They give 2 Skill Points per level from 40th = +10 SP, and then 1 SP per 50 CP's.

If they introduce it late enough, everyone should have at the very least 200 CPs - and those that don't can always be boosted to 200 CPs to balance it.

Xandryah · June 2015

Personally i think there is not much to worry about those attribute points... there are probably many solutions available, all of them welcome by all players on the long run

would it be bad, if they would extend maximum level to level 63/64? that could be a solution... and every level would surely not need 1 Million XP.... they can increase XP gains (that's pretty much necessary > swtor)

i think also, that they will make it possible to gain CP from lvl 1 on, which would boost alt's creations; i still have only 1 veteran 14 toon and no other veteran toons.

Personally, i think, this game has only solutions for many aspects.... one thing i don't like is the class-balance and total freedom-concept without being able to gauge the toon's performance with numbers (like swtor); also the 3-second-kill-possibility in PvP ...

I hope and am a bit confident that, when the Vetaran-levels will be removed the CP-system will also change and more easier to access etc...

I'm still using my fingers to rather type stuff in the forums or crossing them instead of clicking my mouse

felinith66 · June 2015

ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »

Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.

We are hard at work on it and I’m here to answer a few of your questions. Most of these questions were also asked during our Guild Round Table in the last two days.

What happens to the Skill Points from VR1-12? Are they carried over to the CS instead?

The Skill Points we reward will not be removed from you! You will continue to have the same amount of Skill Points you do now. The Champion System does not reward any Skill Points, only gaining Veteran Ranks does. When we take out Veteran Ranks we will make sure that anyone that didn't make it max Veteran Rank will still rewarded with those Skill Points.

I_killed_Vivec · June 2015

felinith66 wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »

Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.

We are hard at work on it and I’m here to answer a few of your questions. Most of these questions were also asked during our Guild Round Table in the last two days.

What happens to the Skill Points from VR1-12? Are they carried over to the CS instead?

The Skill Points we reward will not be removed from you! You will continue to have the same amount of Skill Points you do now. The Champion System does not reward any Skill Points, only gaining Veteran Ranks does. When we take out Veteran Ranks we will make sure that anyone that didn't make it max Veteran Rank will still rewarded with those Skill Points.

Unfortunately that quote is over a year old - before VR went from 12 to 14!

It seems to me that the only options presented here are either based on "something for nothing" (get 13 skill points for beating Moley) or "base it on CP". And "base it on CP" is really just basing it on XP. Which is precisely what we have now with VR...

As VR progression is something that just happens to you as you gather CP, why bother removing it? With the CP system in place it is essentially another line of passives that trigger when you get CP (XP). And as such it forms an adequate system for progression in terms of gear, crafting, food, potions...

And it will also provide a way to level new content - ZoS have said (I know...) that DLC will level to your character. How can they level it unless they take CP into account? We all know a level 50 with no CP will be far, far weaker than a level 50 with 200CP - do ZoS level against CP, or against VR?

Apart from people who want to have alts at VR14 without the grind and people who want to be "competitive" as soon as they reach level 50, Veteran Ranks are a red herring. They are just passives you attain while grinding CP...

leeux · June 2015

What about simply crediting the extra SP and AP when a char transitions to L50? As in, 49->50 and you're done, now you have 13 skill points and 13 attributes for distribution.

(Assuming they remove the vet levels at all, which I'm still not convinced they'll ever do)

MAOofDC · June 2015

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

This isn't hard really.

They give 2 Skill Points per level from 40th = +10 SP, and then 1 SP per 50 CP's.

If they introduce it late enough, everyone should have at the very least 200 CPs - and those that don't can always be boosted to 200 CPs to balance it.

You mean everyone who is playing the game RIGHT now should have 200. Anyone else gets a free pass on the day your idea goes live. But the person who buys the game the next day, sorry Charlie you are out? Is that what I'm reading?

Gidorick · June 2015

leeux wrote: »

What about simply crediting the extra SP and AP when a char transitions to L50? As in, 49->50 and you're done, now you have 13 skill points and 13 attributes for distribution.

(Assuming they remove the vet levels at all, which I'm still not convinced they'll ever do)

I think this is the most likely to happen. But what does this 'solve'? People will still want progression and I think the champion point grind will wear thin really fast.

MAOofDC · June 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

show previous quotes

leeux wrote: »

What about simply crediting the extra SP and AP when a char transitions to L50? As in, 49->50 and you're done, now you have 13 skill points and 13 attributes for distribution.

(Assuming they remove the vet levels at all, which I'm still not convinced they'll ever do)

I think this is the most likely to happen. But what does this 'solve'? People will still want progression and I think the champion point grind will wear thin really fast.

I agree that removing Vet Levels at this point will solve nothing and add unneeded strife. People will still want a measuring stick to see if potential group members, that they have never worked with before, should be able to do the job they are grouping up for. The fear of losing valuable time to a PuG is very strong and not unjustified. So instead of, "What level are you?" it will be, "How many Champion points do you have?" Or even worse, "How many Champion Points do you have, and where did you spend them?"

I mean I've been in PuGs that on paper should have been able to face roll a dungeon and we have failed. Mostly due to players not using the correct fight mechanics. But lack of proper gear and/or bad choices made with someone's rotation might have also helped. I've also been in groups that should have been instafails and we just steamrolled through the mobs and bosses. Because the people involved knew the fights, had good gear for their level, and knew the optimal rotation for their style of play. That being said I would not try to take a Vet 1 through Veteran City of Ash. Now proponents of the get rid of vet levels will say "See, if we are all level 50 we will be even and can run it." I counter with not necessarily.

Someone who got the game 2 weeks ago and just turned level 50 or Vet 1 are at a major disadvantage to me. I'm been playing the game since Beta I currently, as of 6/9/15, have 204 Champion points. I'm only so/so far along compare to some people I know but, leaps and bounds along when compared to my friend who just turned Vet 14 yesterday. Even if they nerf us all to a maxed level of 50 I will still have a greater potential than the newer players and unless I just stop playing I will ALWAYS have it. Because they will never be able to catch up that is what happens in every single MMO it's a concept called Power Creep. There isn't a really good way to stop this, but I think that ESO does a good job of mitigating it. Also I am guessing that a lot of people who want level 50 to be max really don't know what the champion system is really about. The passive are cool but the don't make a huge amount of difference. They also very quickly start generating a diminishing return on investment. I assigned a point last night and gained around 1/10 of a percent to my magicka regen, be still my beating heart.

I also think players who don't have a level 50 toon fully understand just how much of a grind the Champion point system really is. Let me tell you it's more of a grind than leveling EVER was. So there is a maximum amount of 3600 CPs to get. You would need to get 1,440,000,000 exp points to get them all, 1.44 Billion, that's Billion with a B. Next to a number like that the mere 13,000,000 exp points, that's 13 Million with a M, needed to become Vet 14 it seems, well minuscule. Exp earned leveling up also counts towards you gaining CPs. Meaning if you get 10k exp from killing a bunch of mob you get 10k towards your next level and 10k towards your next CP. So that leveling up grind starts to look a little less crappy. Because not only are you getting your base stats up and gaining new skills you are earning CPs.

As far as how the CP system actually works here is a quick tutorial.

There are three types of points Warrior, Thief and Mage, you earn one at a time in that sequence. There is 9 constellations to spend your points on their are what I call minor passives and major passives. The minor passive affect the basic power of your toon. A percentage bouns to damage with a particular type of weapon or some reduction of damage taken by a particular type of attack. The Major passives give a big buff to your style of play be it a free damage shield of extra stuff from a chest to name a few right off the top of my head. The first major passives don't activate until you get 10 points in a particular constellation. So a player need to grind up 15,200,000 Exp for their first 10 point passive in just 1 of their constellations. Please note this is 2.2 Million more than what is needed to reach Vet 14 from Vet 1. You'll need another 800,000 exp to have the first major passives opened in all three constellation. BTW the first major passive are kind of lackluster. They don't start getting good until the 30 point level another 24,000,000 exp points away for all three. There are other major passive activation points at 75 and 120. There is something called Enlightenment which you get every 24 hours. It acts like a rested bonus that quadruples the exp gained but has a finite amount of boost, 400,000 exp or one CPs worth. It should be noted that you can only use enlightenment with Vet leveled toons and the total daily amount is account wide. So if you have two Vet level toons and one uses 200k worth of enlightenment there is only 200k worth available to all your other Vet level toons. After you use it up for the day's allotment it's back to the same ole' grind. Now you can bank it up by not playing your Vet level toons but even then you can only hold 12 points worth at any given time.

To me the CP system just SCREAMS grinding and ZoS has been going out of their way to nerf places people go to grind. Making the CP grind way worse than the level grind ever is. It just doesn't feel as bad because you get 2.2 CPs per Vet level as you are getting them. That is until you stop leveling and all you are left with is the grind.

Enodoc · June 2015

(Sorry, haven't read the whole thread)

This whole issue would never have existed if they hadn't introduced the Skill and Attribute points to VRs. At launch, gaining a new VR didn't give you Skill and Attribute points. If that had stayed as it was, removing VRs wouldn't create this issue. But since it didn't stay as it was, they certainly won't remove the Skill and Attribute points they specifically added after launch.

There are two things that I think are "most likely":

Everyone gets 14 Skill and Attribute points as soon as they hit Level 50.
The points are distributed based on number of CPs, up to 14. For example, you get 1 Skill and Attribute point at 50, and 1 more for every third CP up to the 39th CP.

spoqster · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gidorick wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

What about simply crediting the extra SP and AP when a char transitions to L50? As in, 49->50 and you're done, now you have 13 skill points and 13 attributes for distribution.

(Assuming they remove the vet levels at all, which I'm still not convinced they'll ever do)

I think this is the most likely to happen. But what does this 'solve'? People will still want progression and I think the champion point grind will wear thin really fast.

I agree that removing Vet Levels at this point will solve nothing and add unneeded strife. People will still want a measuring stick to see if potential group members, that they have never worked with before, should be able to do the job they are grouping up for. The fear of losing valuable time to a PuG is very strong and not unjustified. So instead of, "What level are you?" it will be, "How many Champion points do you have?" Or even worse, "How many Champion Points do you have, and where did you spend them?"

I mean I've been in PuGs that on paper should have been able to face roll a dungeon and we have failed. Mostly due to players not using the correct fight mechanics. But lack of proper gear and/or bad choices made with someone's rotation might have also helped. I've also been in groups that should have been instafails and we just steamrolled through the mobs and bosses. Because the people involved knew the fights, had good gear for their level, and knew the optimal rotation for their style of play. That being said I would not try to take a Vet 1 through Veteran City of Ash. Now proponents of the get rid of vet levels will say "See, if we are all level 50 we will be even and can run it." I counter with not necessarily.

Someone who got the game 2 weeks ago and just turned level 50 or Vet 1 are at a major disadvantage to me. I'm been playing the game since Beta I currently, as of 6/9/15, have 204 Champion points. I'm only so/so far along compare to some people I know but, leaps and bounds along when compared to my friend who just turned Vet 14 yesterday. Even if they nerf us all to a maxed level of 50 I will still have a greater potential than the newer players and unless I just stop playing I will ALWAYS have it. Because they will never be able to catch up that is what happens in every single MMO it's a concept called Power Creep. There isn't a really good way to stop this, but I think that ESO does a good job of mitigating it. Also I am guessing that a lot of people who want level 50 to be max really don't know what the champion system is really about. The passive are cool but the don't make a huge amount of difference. They also very quickly start generating a diminishing return on investment. I assigned a point last night and gained around 1/10 of a percent to my magicka regen, be still my beating heart.

I also think players who don't have a level 50 toon fully understand just how much of a grind the Champion point system really is. Let me tell you it's more of a grind than leveling EVER was. So there is a maximum amount of 3600 CPs to get. You would need to get 1,440,000,000 exp points to get them all, 1.44 Trillion, that's Trillion with a T. Next to a number like that the mere 13,000,000 exp points, that's 13 Million with a M, needed to become Vet 14 it seems, well minuscule. Exp earned leveling up also counts towards you gaining CPs. Meaning if you get 10k exp from killing a bunch of mob you get 10k towards your next level and 10k towards your next CP. So that leveling up grind starts to look a little less crappy. Because not only are you getting your base stats up and gaining new skills you are earning CPs.

As far as how the CP system actually works here is a quick tutorial.

There are three types of points Warrior, Thief and Mage, you earn one at a time in that sequence. There is 9 constellations to spend your points on their are what I call minor passives and major passives. The minor passive affect the basic power of your toon. A percentage bouns to damage with a particular type of weapon or some reduction of damage taken by a particular type of attack. The Major passives give a big buff to your style of play be it a free damage shield of extra stuff from a chest to name a few right off the top of my head. The first major passives don't activate until you get 10 points in a particular constellation. So a player need to grind up 15,200,000 Exp for their first 10 point passive in just 1 of their constellations. Please note this is 2.2 Million more than what is needed to reach Vet 14 from Vet 1. You'll need another 800,000 exp to have the first major passives opened in all three constellation. BTW the first major passive are kind of lackluster. They don't start getting good until the 30 point level another 24,000,000 exp points away for all three. There are other major passive activation points at 75 and 120. There is something called Enlightenment which you get every 24 hours. It acts like a rested bonus that quadruples the exp gained but has a finite amount of boost, 400,000 exp or one CPs worth. It should be noted that you can only use enlightenment with Vet leveled toons and the total daily amount is account wide. So if you have two Vet level toons and one uses 200k worth of enlightenment there is only 200k worth available to all your other Vet level toons. After you use it up for the day's allotment it's back to the same ole' grind. Now you can bank it up by not playing your Vet level toons but even then you can only hold 12 points worth at any given time.

To me the CP system just SCREAMS grinding and ZoS has been going out of their way to nerf places people go to grind. Making the CP grind way worse than the level grind ever is. It just doesn't feel as bad because you get 2.2 CPs per Vet level as you are getting them. That is until you stop leveling and all you are left with is the grind.

I don't know a single person who still grinds CP. Some people still grind out their enlightenment, but apart from that it seems like it has finally sunk in that the CS is not meant to be grinded. Even the most old-fashioned MMO players have finally understood that endgame can be about having fun rather than about progression.

I have written two long posts in this thread to explain this in detail. Please scroll up if you feel like following my thoughts.

As to the power differences the CS provides, you have to look at the full picture. Yes, there is a power difference, especially in DPS. But good PVE DPS varies anywhere between 10k and 25k, if you manage to get everything right, have your skills and your gear optimized for the boss and don't miss a single beat in your execution. But 10k -12k is enough to comfortably beat any trial. When you look at tanking and PVP tactics and playing skill are much, much more important than your numbers. There is currently no content in the game that a good player who just hit v14 yesterday can't beat.

MAOofDC · June 2015

Enodoc wrote: »

(Sorry, haven't read the whole thread)

This whole issue would never have existed if they hadn't introduced the Skill and Attribute points to VRs. At launch, gaining a new VR didn't give you Skill and Attribute points. If that had stayed as it was, removing VRs wouldn't create this issue. But since it didn't stay as it was, they certainly won't remove the Skill and Attribute points they specifically added after launch.

There are two things that I think are "most likely":
Everyone gets 14 Skill and Attribute points as soon as they hit Level 50.

The points are distributed based on number of CPs, up to 14. For example, you get 1 Skill and Attribute point at 50, and 1 more for every third CP up to the 39th CP.

The second idea you think most likely would cost newer players 15,600,000 exp. The current cost to get from level 50 AKA Vet 1 is 13,000,000 so with this idea implemented it would cost 2.6 Million more exp to reach the same level as the Vet rank system.

Makkir · June 2015

or they get rid of vet levels and just increase the level cap to 65...or 64

MAOofDC · June 2015

spoqster wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

What about simply crediting the extra SP and AP when a char transitions to L50? As in, 49->50 and you're done, now you have 13 skill points and 13 attributes for distribution.

(Assuming they remove the vet levels at all, which I'm still not convinced they'll ever do)

I think this is the most likely to happen. But what does this 'solve'? People will still want progression and I think the champion point grind will wear thin really fast.

I agree that removing Vet Levels at this point will solve nothing and add unneeded strife. People will still want a measuring stick to see if potential group members, that they have never worked with before, should be able to do the job they are grouping up for. The fear of losing valuable time to a PuG is very strong and not unjustified. So instead of, "What level are you?" it will be, "How many Champion points do you have?" Or even worse, "How many Champion Points do you have, and where did you spend them?"

I mean I've been in PuGs that on paper should have been able to face roll a dungeon and we have failed. Mostly due to players not using the correct fight mechanics. But lack of proper gear and/or bad choices made with someone's rotation might have also helped. I've also been in groups that should have been instafails and we just steamrolled through the mobs and bosses. Because the people involved knew the fights, had good gear for their level, and knew the optimal rotation for their style of play. That being said I would not try to take a Vet 1 through Veteran City of Ash. Now proponents of the get rid of vet levels will say "See, if we are all level 50 we will be even and can run it." I counter with not necessarily.

Someone who got the game 2 weeks ago and just turned level 50 or Vet 1 are at a major disadvantage to me. I'm been playing the game since Beta I currently, as of 6/9/15, have 204 Champion points. I'm only so/so far along compare to some people I know but, leaps and bounds along when compared to my friend who just turned Vet 14 yesterday. Even if they nerf us all to a maxed level of 50 I will still have a greater potential than the newer players and unless I just stop playing I will ALWAYS have it. Because they will never be able to catch up that is what happens in every single MMO it's a concept called Power Creep. There isn't a really good way to stop this, but I think that ESO does a good job of mitigating it. Also I am guessing that a lot of people who want level 50 to be max really don't know what the champion system is really about. The passive are cool but the don't make a huge amount of difference. They also very quickly start generating a diminishing return on investment. I assigned a point last night and gained around 1/10 of a percent to my magicka regen, be still my beating heart.

I also think players who don't have a level 50 toon fully understand just how much of a grind the Champion point system really is. Let me tell you it's more of a grind than leveling EVER was. So there is a maximum amount of 3600 CPs to get. You would need to get 1,440,000,000 exp points to get them all, 1.44 Billion, that's Billion with a B. Next to a number like that the mere 13,000,000 exp points, that's 13 Million with a M, needed to become Vet 14 it seems, well minuscule. Exp earned leveling up also counts towards you gaining CPs. Meaning if you get 10k exp from killing a bunch of mob you get 10k towards your next level and 10k towards your next CP. So that leveling up grind starts to look a little less crappy. Because not only are you getting your base stats up and gaining new skills you are earning CPs.

As far as how the CP system actually works here is a quick tutorial.

There are three types of points Warrior, Thief and Mage, you earn one at a time in that sequence. There is 9 constellations to spend your points on their are what I call minor passives and major passives. The minor passive affect the basic power of your toon. A percentage bouns to damage with a particular type of weapon or some reduction of damage taken by a particular type of attack. The Major passives give a big buff to your style of play be it a free damage shield of extra stuff from a chest to name a few right off the top of my head. The first major passives don't activate until you get 10 points in a particular constellation. So a player need to grind up 15,200,000 Exp for their first 10 point passive in just 1 of their constellations. Please note this is 2.2 Million more than what is needed to reach Vet 14 from Vet 1. You'll need another 800,000 exp to have the first major passives opened in all three constellation. BTW the first major passive are kind of lackluster. They don't start getting good until the 30 point level another 24,000,000 exp points away for all three. There are other major passive activation points at 75 and 120. There is something called Enlightenment which you get every 24 hours. It acts like a rested bonus that quadruples the exp gained but has a finite amount of boost, 400,000 exp or one CPs worth. It should be noted that you can only use enlightenment with Vet leveled toons and the total daily amount is account wide. So if you have two Vet level toons and one uses 200k worth of enlightenment there is only 200k worth available to all your other Vet level toons. After you use it up for the day's allotment it's back to the same ole' grind. Now you can bank it up by not playing your Vet level toons but even then you can only hold 12 points worth at any given time.

To me the CP system just SCREAMS grinding and ZoS has been going out of their way to nerf places people go to grind. Making the CP grind way worse than the level grind ever is. It just doesn't feel as bad because you get 2.2 CPs per Vet level as you are getting them. That is until you stop leveling and all you are left with is the grind.

I don't know a single person who still grinds CP. Some people still grind out their enlightenment, but apart from that it seems like it has finally sunk in that the CS is not meant to be grinded. Even the most old-fashioned MMO players have finally understood that endgame can be about having fun rather than about progression.

I have written two long posts in this thread to explain this in detail. Please scroll up if you feel like following my thoughts.

As to the power differences the CS provides, you have to look at the full picture. Yes, there is a power difference, especially in DPS. But good PVE DPS varies anywhere between 10k and 25k, if you manage to get everything right, have your skills and your gear optimized for the boss and don't miss a single beat in your execution. But 10k -12k is enough to comfortably beat any trial. When you look at tanking and PVP tactics and playing skill are much, much more important than your numbers. There is currently no content in the game that a good player who just hit v14 yesterday can't beat.

I was just crunching the numbers for people who are calling the Vet Ranks a grind. I know very few people still grind for CP's but, some still do. Hell there was thread started yesterday about possible Bots doing the grind.

MAOofDC · June 2015

Makkir wrote: »

or they get rid of vet levels and just increase the level cap to 65...or 64

If they do this people will still *** that they have to grind levels to get to maxed level.

WyldfireWyrm · June 2015

Nebthet78 wrote: »

I am thinking that while they are going to remove VET levels, they are not actually going to really disappear, but will instead be converted and called something else instead. Otherwise, they have a crapload of work ahead of them to convert every single piece of armor and weapon in this game, let alone balancing out our levels and what not.

I agree with this. The way I see it, there are 2 easy ways to solve the problem without anyone getting nerfed and endgame gear not having to be completely redone. Either the removal of veteran ranks will occur during the VERY eventual expansion (even crappy MMOs eventually get at least one expansion before they die) and all new gear is released for whatever the new end game level is. Or make VR14 into level 65 with no need to change great at all.

There are plenty of simple ways to solve the situation, but not many people will want to get behind. Psychologically speaking, human beings tend to resist change because it creates an element of the unknown and the unknown tends to do make people act irrational. This is especially true in a situation like this, where there is the possibility of regressing backwards in level, meaning people's time had been wasted. The key to making the removal of veteran levels a success will be to make it feel like forward progress, not regression.

MartyVendetta27 · June 2015

information has apparently been made available about the future of Veteran Ranks and how the phasing out of them will work.

The Veteran System is not going to be in place forever. A replacement called the Champion System is rolling out in 4 phases, the first of which was implemented in Update 2. These are the order at which the phases are scheduled to be deployed with their estimated updates.
Phase 1, deployed in Update 2: Reduce the difficulty of Veteran content so it is more consistent with the items you earn.
Phase 2, deployed in Update 5: Convert Veteran Points into Experience Points and reduce the overall amount needed to obtain a Veteran Rank. You will now earn an attribute point and a skill point for every Veteran Rank you obtain, and the overall Veteran content experience is much more like the 1-50 leveling experience.
Phase 3, deployed in Update 6: Add a new alternate advancement system that uses Champion Points. You are able to spend these Champion Points on passive buffs such as increasing critical strike, increasing armor etc. And there will be a special menu from where you can choose 9 constellations to level up. All 9 can be leveled up but it will take a VERY long time to max them out. In fact, the system adds over 3 real-world years' worth of character advancement. Champion Points are tied to XP and each 400,000 XP is 1 Champion Point. Players' main attributes (Health, Magicka, Stamina) were also increased by almost tenfold to add granularity to the system.
Phase 4, to be deployed in Update 7 or 8: Remove Veteran Ranks entirely, and reduce the level cap to 50. Max-level equipment will now come in "Seasons" and players can buy equipment from older seasons. Very little is known of Phase 4 other than this.

Copied from here: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Veteran_Levels