Assuming ZoS Removes Veteran Levels. What Happens To Attributes And Skill Points?
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wraith808✭✭✭✭Notice that part 4 of that wiki entry doesn't have any footnotes or references. I don't think that they have *ever* said that they will just reduce the level to 50- that's just speculation. If you have any direct references to it, then I'd like to know where. But that speculation wouldn't be in place if they had been clear. But I don't even think *they* know what they're going to do.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
F7sus4✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wanted to thank you for summing up all the insight that I have already shared 3-4 months ago in separate posts.
ad.1) They added 14 skill/attribute points for each Veteran Rank AFTER they announced VR system removal. Taking them back would be plain stupid and is not really likely to happen.
ad. 2) Meh, more than unlikely.
ad. 3) It's kinda funny to propose your own solution and then explain why it should be discarded. But either way, this is what is already happening with CP system. With each CP rank, your stats are slowly growing.
Yes, that's what I actually stated. People that want to remove VR ranks are also people who want to rush through the content and reach max level in a week. This is not how it works (and neither it should) in this game. Actually, VR should NOT be removed. Perhaps, they should have never been implemented, but once we have established meta-game after 1 year, we should not want to flip the table upside down and make another (a'la-1.6) carnage-revolution.In my opinion the main reason that I can figure out for people wanting to have Vet levels removed. Is because they want to be maxed level ASAP so that they can win at PvP or run the end game PvE content. Reaching maxed level sooner will not necessarily make you a better PvPer or PvEer in fact it will give you less time to figure out a build you like or how to use the build you have chosen effectively.1 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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For the record, I want VRs removed but I don't want to rush through content and reach max level in a week. I have no interest in reaching max level; it'll happen when it happens. Or it won't if I don't make it that far.People that want to remove VR ranks are also people who want to rush through the content and reach max level in a week.
The reason I want VRs removed is so that all endgame content can be played in any order, and you're not forced to go Silver -> Gold -> Craglorn. Whoever heard of levelling through endgame? That's a contradiction, but that's what we have.Edited by Enodoc on June 15, 2015 12:49PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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MAOofDC✭✭✭✭I wanted to thank you for summing up all the insight that I have already shared 3-4 months ago in separate posts.
ad.1) They added 14 skill/attribute points for each Veteran Rank AFTER they announced VR system removal. Taking them back would be plain stupid and is not really likely to happen.
ad. 2) Meh, more than unlikely.
ad. 3) It's kinda funny to propose your own solution and then explain why it should be discarded. But either way, this is what is already happening with CP system. With each CP rank, your stats are slowly growing.
Yes, that's what I actually stated. People that want to remove VR ranks are also people who want to rush through the content and reach max level in a week. This is not how it works (and neither it should) in this game. Actually, VR should NOT be removed. Perhaps, they should have never been implemented, but once we have established meta-game after 1 year, we should not want to flip the table upside down and make another (a'la-1.6) carnage-revolution.
I personally wish that the VR level stay in place. They are too well ingrained to the game right now. That being said, I created this thread to have an open dialogue about how the players who want the VR removed, would deal with the points that would go away.
So none of what suggested in my OP are optimal solutions but #3 was suggested by someone else in thread and I thought it was a good enough idea that it needed to be presented so that others would more than likely read it. After all most people read the OP but may not read any other posts.Guild Master of the Guild <The Wrath of Sheogorath>. CHEESE AND CABBAGE FOR EVERYONE!!!0 -
wraith808✭✭✭✭For the record, I want VRs removed but I don't want to rush through content and reach max level in a week. I have no interest in reaching max level; it'll happen when it happens. Or it won't if I don't make it that far.
The reason I want VRs removed is so that all endgame content can be played in any order, and you're not forced to go Silver -> Gold -> Craglorn. Whoever heard of levelling through endgame? That's a contradiction, but that's what we have.
But you can do that without removing VRs. So if that's the aim, why not campaign for that rather than removing VRs? I think that VRs are a convenient scapegoat for many justified complaints. But by not focusing on what the actual complaints are, you run the risk of them removing VRs, but the problems still remaining.Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Only by making VRs essentially useless, and then you may as well just remove them anyway. Currently you have Silver: V1-V5, Gold: V6-V10, Craglorn: V11-V14. If you made Silver: V1-V14, Gold: V1-V14, Craglorn: V1-V14, then what's the point? You may as well just have Silver: 50+, Gold: 50+, Craglorn 50+ without applying arbitrary numbers to it.
But you can do that without removing VRs. So if that's the aim, why not campaign for that rather than removing VRs? I think that VRs are a convenient scapegoat for many justified complaints. But by not focusing on what the actual complaints are, you run the risk of them removing VRs, but the problems still remaining.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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wraith808✭✭✭✭Only by making VRs essentially useless, and then you may as well just remove them anyway. Currently you have Silver: V1-V5, Gold: V6-V10, Craglorn: V11-V14. If you made Silver: V1-V14, Gold: V1-V14, Craglorn: V1-V14, then what's the point? You may as well just have Silver: 50+, Gold: 50+, Craglorn 50+ without applying arbitrary numbers to it.
And that's what I'm saying. You can do that without removing VRs and all of the problems that come with it. Remove the requirements, lower the XP requirement, and you don't have to change itemization, figure out what to do with the 14 attribute/skill points, and deal with the uproar and requisite bugs to go along with the change, and take the time. I'm not disagreeing with you that the requirements for the content need to be removed. But I'm just saying that you don't have to remove VRs to get to that same aim.
Thoughts?Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror1 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah, I would be happy with that. It doesn't address the "player separation" issue that others are complaining about, but then again, since CPs exist, nothing will. Keeping the ranks existent to alleviate the problem with itemization, while removing the implied rank requirements for content access, would be a reasonable way to go about it.And that's what I'm saying. You can do that without removing VRs and all of the problems that come with it. Remove the requirements, lower the XP requirement, and you don't have to change itemization, figure out what to do with the 14 attribute/skill points, and deal with the uproar and requisite bugs to go along with the change, and take the time. I'm not disagreeing with you that the requirements for the content need to be removed. But I'm just saying that you don't have to remove VRs to get to that same aim.
Thoughts?UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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wraith808✭✭✭✭Yeah, I would be happy with that. It doesn't address the "player separation" issue that others are complaining about, but then again, since CPs exist, nothing will. Keeping the ranks existent to alleviate the problem with itemization, while removing the implied rank requirements for content access, would be a reasonable way to go about it.
With CPs in the game, I'm not sure how you go about addressing the "player separation" concerns. When it was just VR, then you could use scaling- that they've already introduced. But with the myriad of choices that CP introduces, there's no real effective way to take those- or the lack of them- into account. The diminishing returns does help with that, but it doesn't really alleviate it.
And even when they introduce new content, how are they going to take it into account?Quasim ibn-Muhammad - VR 12 Redguard Dragon Knight
Taladriel Vanima - VR 5 Altmer Nightblade
Ambalyo iyo Bogaadin - VR 1 Redguard Sorceror0 -
I am a little confused as to what is going on here.
On console, you do not acquire any extra skill or attribute points (at least not that I have seen or heard yet).
I am on the PS4 version, head of a large guild with a ton of Vet Rank players and none have mentioned it. I am also Rank 1 myself and did not acquire new attribute or skill points from it. If I did, I would have 10 health and 40 magicka attribute instead of 39 magicka.
Did I miss something?PSN Username: AtomicSpatula
Veteran Rank 1 Argonian Nightblade Healer: Sight-of-Amber"Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world"
-Siddhartha Gautama0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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You don't get an Attribute Point for Level 1, so at VR1 you should have received a total of 49 points. At VR14, you should have 62 points.AtomicSpatula wrote: »I am a little confused as to what is going on here.
On console, you do not acquire any extra skill or attribute points (at least not that I have seen or heard yet).
I am on the PS4 version, head of a large guild with a ton of Vet Rank players and none have mentioned it. I am also Rank 1 myself and did not acquire new attribute or skill points from it. If I did, I would have 10 health and 40 magicka attribute instead of 39 magicka.
Did I miss something?Edited by Enodoc on July 4, 2015 3:51PMUESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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NotSo✭✭✭✭I honestly don't know why this is such a huge thing. I'd gladly sacrifice those 13 attribute and skill points to cut veteran ranks. Hell, I'd give up my full roster of characters and have a full account reset to cut veteran ranks.Gar'Sol the Wanderer VR14 Khajiit Sorcerer Spellblade1 -
TheEmoVampire✭✭✭They will get rid of them all 16 of them and all 16 of the skill points as well. IDK why people are complaining about losing Attribute and skill points, this is what y'all wanted no? What do think removing vertical progression is for? To make players less powerful and the game shorter. I seriously don't understand gamers y'all ask for change and when it comes all y'all do is whine and complain about it. The people who actually like Veteran Ranks like continuous progression, when the cap gets lower you'll be able to max level in at most a month (took me three weeks to get to Level 50) but the people who like Veteran Ranks are the minority ( I am one of them, personally I see know problem with Veteran Ranks) and like everything else the majority rules, so yea 16 skill points and Attribute are going to be missing! Congratulations Veteran haters you just shortened the game by over 100+ hours now you'll need to put about three weeks in and your good to go (when this happens) it took me a while to get VR14 so that's hours put into the game for nothing, and there's nothing that can get them back. and to the people who hate Veteran Ranks (aka expansion and incentive to play the game) all games are going to need hours for you to get any where, so if that's the reason you hate Veteran Ranks then go away because that's not a valid reason. You will always need to pour hours into it.Edited by TheEmoVampire on July 5, 2015 3:57AM1 -
TheEmoVampire✭✭✭
Not wanting to level isn't the issue... it's the "grindyness" of the levels. Check out that thread... I explain it in a little bit of detail to illustrate my point. gradual progression is the key. Not level 49... BAM VR1...now go get 1 million XP. Now another million... now another million. It needs to ease the player into higher progression requirements.
Now if people honestly don't want to level, I find that an odd things to say for an RPG.
People not wanting to Level is the probelm, the fact is people only think they have to "grind to VR14" those people are completely stupid and ignorant simple because the common and main problem there is the simple fact that they did not even bother doing the other zones, I've done every world boss delve and even completed cadwells gold. I was Veteran Rank 1 before I even started on The Rift, which I believe is like a level 40-45 zone. And when I got out of cold harbour I was Veteran Rank 3. So that is proof that grinding is less effective than actually play the game. Y'all are trying to play the game like you would play Destiny, and heres a big shocker, this is The Elder Scrolls Online Tamriel Unlimited. Play the game and you'll get some where you won't get any where if you stay in one spot killing the same mob over and over again. I'm a Veteran Rank 14 I've been play since like July of 2014 and I did not play the game till March 2015 again, so that's like almost 6 months of me not playing, and I'm max (for now). So quite the complaining and go defeat Molag Bal, oh woat sorry you have to meet the the project at the Harboarage first to even start the main quest, good news for you grinders who took like 1000+ hours on grinding you get to spend another 50ish to complete the main quest or maybe not because now it won't be a challenge cause its maxed at 50 lol now tahts some irony, gotta spend more time on something thats not even a challenge. Oh BTW the people who don't grind actually spend get farther along in the game, and in less time. The only reason y'all want it gone is cause y'all don't want to Level it, seriously 13,000,000 xp does not take that long to get. Grinding is not necessary, y'all just don't want level up.Edited by TheEmoVampire on July 5, 2015 3:56AM0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think they will come up with some other type of leveling system... perhaps going 51+ and somehow in place of skill points, add champion points. This would reduce the amount of champion points, but would also go back to making 'levels' count for something as it did when you'd gain a skill point. They could easily convert VR1-16 into levels 51-70, or something along those lines. They'd take away a lot of champion points from high level players, but it would bring some sort of balance back to the game because you wouldn't have champion points being such an unbalanced aspect of the game.
It seems to me that adding VR levels and Champion points was a rushed concept meant to appease the grumblings of the "we haven't had any new content" players and we see the results when ideas aren't run through the "long-term" filter. This was a problem in DCUO, devs would implement things without ever giving thought to how it would play out in three months or six months, and then they'd have to 'fix' those things later when obvious problems occurred. Why is it so difficult for developers to create a timeline, start placing ideas on it, and then seriously think about what 'could' go wrong and how are all those things going to fit together... to me it doesn't sound like a difficult concept, but so many games these days give no thought to the future of their ideas, they just implement them and 'hope for the best' when in reality, had they taken a bit of time and actually considered how everything would fit together, they'd have realized it wasn't such a good idea in the first place... BEFORE subjecting the entire gaming community to it. Just my thoughts.
Edited by ADarklore on July 5, 2015 11:21PMCP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****0 -
lolzbuckets✭✭✭Okay, so I'm a bit too lazy to read through this entire thread before asking my question, so if it's already been answered, my bad, BUT.
Even if they decide to just let the people who've earned them keep their 13 extra skill points and make it impossible for anyone else to get them, how would that impact PVP at all? Let me explain.
There are currently a bit more than 320 skill points every character can acquire.
There are currently somewhere north of 400 possible places to spend them.
You can only have as many as 10 skills and 2 ultimates equipped at a time.
An enormous chunk of passives only apply when you're using specific gear or skills.
Long story short, it's literally impossible to benefit from more than *mayyyyyyyyybe* 100 skills at any given time.
So let me ask my question again. How does losing 13 skill points impact PVP? Even a little bit?
I'll grant you that an extra chunk of health/mana/stamina would hurt a bit more, but the addition of skill points to this debate seems asinine at best.
However, all that said, it seems like the fix is fairly obvious. They could let the people who have earned the extra skill points keep them. They could add a new quest line, made available at level 50, that has 13 (or more) sections, upon completion of which your character earns an extra skill point and an extra attribute. For characters who are at veteran rank 2 or higher when this patch is applied, parts 1 through 13 are retroactively completed, or at least have their rewards removed. Alternately, it could be the introductory mission to new content, accessible at level 50, rewarding anywhere from 0 to 13 extra skill points and/or attributes based on your veteran rank prior to the patch's release.
That way, everyone is on the same page, end of story.
As to any complaints about how Champion points will never be balanced...
So?
Your complaints about Champion points can only possibly fall into three categories: balance, wherein particular skills are so overpowered that taking them is 100% necessary and taking anything else is 100% pointless, or so weak that there is never a situation in which they are worth taking; functionality, speaking specifically to bugs, not the aforementioned balance issue; or WHINGING, wherein you think that people who started playing yesterday should be just as powerful as people who have invested two years of their life into making a character an utter bamf.
For those of you whinging, while I could take your argument to its logical extension and explain why it's ridiculous, I won't. Instead, here's an apology and a suggestion.
I'm sorry some people are higher level than you.
Get over it.0 -
gkspcg_ESO✭✭It would be counter productive to remove veteran ranks. Think of the number of maxed out players that would just stop playing. The game just came out on the consoles a little of a month ago and a little more than a year on PC. That would be a lot of lost money. Who would buy the expansions, all the lazy new players?0 -
Jumper45✭✭✭What is the point of removing vet levels but raising the level cap if that were to happen? that doesnt make much sense as its still the same thing just a different name label. If anything that would push players further apart. AKA you can run a Vet12 dungeon at VR 6 and still do ok. The same wouldnt exactly be said about a lvl 60 in a level 76 dungeon. Not to mention they would have to rework all gear and/or have to add a TON of new inventory for these extra 26 levels of gear vs just the 14. Not quite sure what all the hub bub is about vet levels and also not sure why ANYONE would want the level cap reduced rather then raised since thats what would be happening if vet levels were removed. Champ points are no different then other systems mmos have used like Everquest with AA points ( but theirs was a much bigger scale) This pretty much gives people a reason to do content. If you dont need the gear and you arnt gaining any sort of exp/leveling you have no reason what so ever to do it. Thus theses areas of content become wastelands.
You have to look at it from all angles ANYtime you can push play time into exp gains you are giving people a reason to repeat content they already have. Farming gear falls into that catagory but is a lot more toxic then EXP. For example ive ran DSC over 85 times and ive yet to see a helm drop but people in my grp will be there their first time and get the drop. While it doesnt bother me as a long time mmo player ( back in everquest it could take months to get a drop) I can see that being toxic to newer players attitudes.
When you start messing with things like this it can get real muddy real fast because it effects ALOT of things that arnt seen on the surface. Example: No one does Vet dungeons anymore b/c they have all the gear and dont need xp b/c they are xp capped and champ point capped. Que times take 3 hours just to get into one ( I wont go into how that is already the case with the que system) and people give up or skip the content all together or just out level it completely because its so slow.“All right, I've been thinking, when life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade! Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager!
Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man whose gonna burn your house down - with the lemons!” (Portal 2)
17 Years MMORPG Experience healing and I still havn't figured out why people stand in red circles.0
