Assuming ZoS Removes Veteran Levels. What Happens To Attributes And Skill Points?

MAOofDC · June 2015

Vicodine wrote: »

The best solution to a problem is usually the easiest. And I'll be honest with you. Killing you... is hard....

On a more serious note

13 quest / achievement awards giving you skill AND attribute points. I mean certain achievements already give you SP.

They are NOT getting rid of Cadwell's silver/gold. That's 4 zones for silver meaning 4 points. 4 zones for Gold giving you another 4.

If you would count starter islands that's 5-per alliance.

The rest in Craglorn for completing parts of the main story there. (OR in Trials as we currently have 3)

That even gives them room to expand and give you more points in the future. One or more points per zone, each time they would bump the VR, they instead give it to you as a reward. Same effort, same time, only problem is you have to get that in a way that is a given. But that's already there - skill point rewards for main story quests. No moar grinding - you have Champion Points for that

This makes a good bit of sense I could support a system like this. That being said, the PvPer people will complain about this from the get go simply because to be equal or better than other PvPers they will have to quest. And not just quest but do full zones of quests the one thing they seem to NOT want to do at all. Even non PvPers are saying that questing is boring and/or immersion breaking to have to do Cadwell's Silver/Gold. What you propose would REALLY force people to do them simply to be competitive.

MAOofDC · June 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · June 2015

At this stage in the game do people honestly think they will remove vet levels?

The only thing that will make them do that is if console players quit in droves because of them. Those left on PC are the ones that learned to live with or love the vet levels.

Personally I find it refreshing to again have a mmo where leveling is NOT a formality of a few days before some mythical endgame and where a max level character means you have actually put some effort into playing that character.

At the moment lvl 1 to 50 is so mind boggling boring and easy that being lvl 50 is a whatever event. Vet level content used to be a bit challenging and teached you to actually playing the game and think, but that is gone now and only some vet dungeons, trials, pvp etc takes any skill.

Vicodine · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

Vicodine wrote: »

The best solution to a problem is usually the easiest. And I'll be honest with you. Killing you... is hard....

On a more serious note

13 quest / achievement awards giving you skill AND attribute points. I mean certain achievements already give you SP.

They are NOT getting rid of Cadwell's silver/gold. That's 4 zones for silver meaning 4 points. 4 zones for Gold giving you another 4.

If you would count starter islands that's 5-per alliance.

The rest in Craglorn for completing parts of the main story there. (OR in Trials as we currently have 3)

That even gives them room to expand and give you more points in the future. One or more points per zone, each time they would bump the VR, they instead give it to you as a reward. Same effort, same time, only problem is you have to get that in a way that is a given. But that's already there - skill point rewards for main story quests. No moar grinding - you have Champion Points for that

This makes a good bit of sense i can could support a system like this. That being said, the PvPer people will complain about this from the get go simply because to be equal or better than other PvPers they will have to quest. And not just quest but do full zones of quests the one thing they seem to NOT want to do at all. Even non PvPers are saying that questing is boring and/or immersion breaking to have to do Cadwell's Silver/Gold. What you propose would REALLY force people to do them simply to be competitive.

Yeah I imagine this would bring some uproar from PvPers. Pretty much like everything that has been done, ever

Not just in ESO.
But If you don't want to quest you have an disadvantage even now - there's like 3 or more skill points you can gain from main quests in each zone. I mean yeah you gain SP by your alliance ranks, but still if you do all content you are the strongest most toughest *** out there. If you skip on quests, you loose skill points. Skill points you could otherwise invest into something useful, like learning every skill there is available to your character. Every passive. Every craft

The game should not force you to do content, and it does not. It should encourage you to do it - and reward you for doing it.

The champion system made sure that you get a reward no matter what you do. But then, there are some perks for everything you do:

- crafting is there to help you get some easy gold. Don't get me wrong - I don't mean equipment crafting. Consumables is where's the money at

- you have AP with which you can buy gear and sell it for a high price, Alliance Ranks that give you SP and you even gain more XP in PvP now then ever, that's your reward for doing PvP.

- you have (usually crappy) gear for doing group PvE, plus XP, plus weekly, plus daily, plus fun? if you do it with your friends. (I'm not gonna go into this more because I'm not happy with the way thing are right now in group PvE)

What do you get for questing when you don't have to? *** rewards. A blue ring you throw out the moment you get it. A handful of gold. And XP. An occasional skill point. Now add to that an occasional Attribute point. One more incentive to get you to do quests

EDIT: Double quote, sorry:)

MAOofDC · June 2015

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

At this stage in the game do people honestly think they will remove vet levels?

The only thing that will make them do that is if console players quit in droves because of them. Those left on PC are the ones that learned to live with or love the vet levels.

Personally I find it refreshing to again have a mmo where leveling is NOT a formality of a few days before some mythical endgame and where a max level character means you have actually put some effort into playing that character.

At the moment lvl 1 to 50 is so mind boggling boring and easy that being lvl 50 is a whatever event. Vet level content used to be a bit challenging and teached you to actually playing the game and think, but that is gone now and only some vet dungeons, trials, pvp etc takes any skill.

This guy gets it. I got an alt of mine from brand new to level 50 in 3 days during the Memorial day weekend. That's what I meant when I said it seem people who want the Vet levels gone just want a win button installed into the game.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

MAOofDC · June 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

Egonieser · June 2015

Why would they do something so complicated? My guess is they will just transform the vet ranks into normal levels with slightly decreased XP requirement, heck even 500k per level would be fine and maybe 1mil for the very last level. That way the grind is reduced and gameplay and items remain unaffected.
I personally dunno what all the moan is about. This is my 3rd veteran char and i am vr8 and not even finished or near finishing cadwells silver and i don't grind, just kill mobs inbetween quests. More than enough xp to go around.

OtarTheMad · June 2015

At first I wanted the Vet level gone but the more I think about it the more I want them to focus on content versus overhauls. The past year was one big overhaul of the game and we missed out on content that I am sure ZOS had planned to be released already. I don't want that to happen again because this game will certainly die if they do that.

We need content not overhauls, are the Vet ranks a grind and insanely boring to level through? Absolutely. However I will trade that "boring" grind for new content being released every 2-3 months. (PLEASE take your time and get the DLCs/Updates right) I heard a while back that they planned on giving those who were already veteran ranks the attributes and skill points they missed. They could just do that as a reward for hitting max level, give you the attributes and skill points you would have earned if the VR system was still in play.

MAOofDC · June 2015

Egonieser wrote: »

Why would they do something so complicated? My guess is they will just transform the vet ranks into normal levels with slightly decreased XP requirement, heck even 500k per level would be fine and maybe 1mil for the very last level. That way the grind is reduced and gameplay and items remain unaffected.
I personally dunno what all the moan is about. This is my 3rd veteran char and i am vr8 and not even finished or near finishing cadwells silver and i don't grind, just kill mobs inbetween quests. More than enough xp to go around.

How would changing the vet levels to regular levels change anything? It wouldn't really. Mind you I have no problem with Vet levels I wouldn't mind if they end up increasing the max levels when they add truly new content new zones, quests and such. But my question is more aimed at the people who so vehemently want them removed. Since I keep asking them how they would account for the missing points and they just don't and keep on advocating the levels removal. Only the people who have given their opinions on this thread have been bothered to even attempt an answer.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

MAOofDC · June 2015

OtarTheMad wrote: »

At first I wanted the Vet level gone but the more I think about it the more I want them to focus on content versus overhauls. The past year was one big overhaul of the game and we missed out on content that I am sure ZOS had planned to be released already. I don't want that to happen again because this game will certainly die if they do that.

We need content not overhauls, are the Vet ranks a grind and insanely boring to level through? Absolutely. However I will trade that "boring" grind for new content being released every 2-3 months. (PLEASE take your time and get the DLCs/Updates right) I heard a while back that they planned on giving those who were already veteran ranks the attributes and skill points they missed. They could just do that as a reward for hitting max level, give you the attributes and skill points you would have earned if the VR system was still in play.

Okay that makes some sense but it also feels ,TO ME, like it's rewarding people for whining. Or rewarding people who didn't have to deal with the pain or going through the whole leveling process.

MAOofDC · June 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Veridiano02 · June 2015

This problem has a very, very easy solution.

Let the VR just as they're now, because they're perfect as they're. And insted of fixing somethign that's already working, focus all that work in new, nice and original content. Some new skills, like a true Elder Scrolls mage (you know, destruction and illusion spells, weapon conjuration) necromancy, thieves guild with thief sidequests, the Dark Brotherhood with some assassination sidequests...

NewBlacksmurf · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Youre either misinterpreting or adding things that were never stated by my suggestion

If it's true that 400k - 800k is the exp needed for 1-2 champion levels then the suggested result of my idea is only 5mil - 10.5 mil per character for a VR 14

That's is waaay better and again my preferred suggestion is 1 champion level gets 1 skill/stat point
5mil < 14 mil

Let me restate just in case I typed something wrong

1 take the current VR level of any character and roll it into the champion system. (No real changes other than visual and it removes the character level problem that creates separation

2 the skill and stat points that came from 1 new VR level would now come from 1 champion level gain (limited to the character who earned the champion level) but the account still gains a champion level (no changes to the champion system at all)

3 the gear, weapons and item requirements will move from a VR requirement to (#2 above) so no other conversions are needed

4 the character UI screen would depict the individual champ level that is used as a requirement for gear, etc.

5 the NPC levels would all fall to 50-54 in Cadwell areas. In Craglorn NPC's would use a level indicator of 54-60 where it makes sense

I think that's a very simple but realistic approach that addresses everything but doesn't screw up anything.

MAOofDC · June 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Youre either misinterpreting or adding things that were never stated by my suggestion

If it's true that 400k - 800k is the exp needed for 1-2 champion levels then the suggested result of my idea is only 5mil - 10.5 mil per character for a VR 14

That's is waaay better and again my preferred suggestion is 1 champion level gets 1 skill/stat point
5mil < 14 mil

Let me restate just in case AU typed something wrong

1 take the current VR level of any character and roll it into the champion system. (No real changes other than visual and it removes the character level problem that creates separation

2 the skill and stat points that came from 1 new VR level would now come from 1 champion level gain (limited to the character who earned the champion level) but the account still gains a champion level (no changes to the champion system at all)

3 the gear, weapons and item requirements will move from a VR requirement to (#2 above) so no other conversions are needed

4 the character UI screen would depict the individual champ level that is used as a requirement for gear, etc.

5 the NPC levels would all fall to 50-54 in Cadwell areas. In Craglorn NPC's would use a level indicator of 54-60 where it makes sense

I think that's a very simple but realistic approach that addresses everything but doesn't screw up anything.

While your math is correct it wouldn't be a fair system since it currently costs 1,000,000 exp per vet level. It used to increase as you leveled up but they made Vet levels a uniformed amount to level up. So at minimum it would have to be 13 to 14 million, not the 5 -10.5 million you state. That is also assuming that only 35 CP are what's needed to be of equal level and not 70 or 75 which is what they grandfather everyone in with.

So instead of needing to be Vet 2 let's say to use weapon or armor X you would need to be Champion Level 3-4? or level 51? How does solve the I don't want to grind anymore levels problem people are have with the Vet rank system? May be I misunderstanding you points but it seems to me you just want to change the name from Veteran Rank 1-14 to level 50-63 or just use the Champion Level number. So basically nothing will change except the name of the levels. People will still have to grind to reach "max" level. Is this what you mean?

NewBlacksmurf · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Youre either misinterpreting or adding things that were never stated by my suggestion

If it's true that 400k - 800k is the exp needed for 1-2 champion levels then the suggested result of my idea is only 5mil - 10.5 mil per character for a VR 14

That's is waaay better and again my preferred suggestion is 1 champion level gets 1 skill/stat point
5mil < 14 mil

Let me restate just in case AU typed something wrong

1 take the current VR level of any character and roll it into the champion system. (No real changes other than visual and it removes the character level problem that creates separation

2 the skill and stat points that came from 1 new VR level would now come from 1 champion level gain (limited to the character who earned the champion level) but the account still gains a champion level (no changes to the champion system at all)

3 the gear, weapons and item requirements will move from a VR requirement to (#2 above) so no other conversions are needed

4 the character UI screen would depict the individual champ level that is used as a requirement for gear, etc.

5 the NPC levels would all fall to 50-54 in Cadwell areas. In Craglorn NPC's would use a level indicator of 54-60 where it makes sense

I think that's a very simple but realistic approach that addresses everything but doesn't screw up anything.

While your math is correct it wouldn't be a fair system since it currently costs 1,000,000 exp per vet level. It used to increase as you leveled up but they made Vet levels a uniformed amount to level up. So at minimum it would have to be 13 to 14 million, not the 5 -10.5 million you state. That is also assuming that only 35 CP are what's needed to be of equal level and not 70 or 75 which is what they grandfather everyone in with.

So instead of needing to be Vet 2 let's say to use weapon or armor X you would need to be Champion Level 3-4? or level 51? How does solve the I don't want to grind anymore levels problem people are have with the Vet rank system? May be I misunderstanding you points but it seems to me you just want to change the name from Veteran Rank 1-14 to level 50-63 or just use the Champion Level number. So basically nothing will change except the name of the levels. People will still have to grind to reach "max" level. Is this what you mean?

You're making this too complicated.
When removing something...basically anything in that feature is being deleted.
Now we all understand that the system is tied into other things so the other suggestions I have keep those things in tact without breaking any other system, feature.

It's not going to be fair because the system is being removed entirely.
That's the purpose

MAOofDC · June 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Youre either misinterpreting or adding things that were never stated by my suggestion

If it's true that 400k - 800k is the exp needed for 1-2 champion levels then the suggested result of my idea is only 5mil - 10.5 mil per character for a VR 14

That's is waaay better and again my preferred suggestion is 1 champion level gets 1 skill/stat point
5mil < 14 mil

Let me restate just in case AU typed something wrong

1 take the current VR level of any character and roll it into the champion system. (No real changes other than visual and it removes the character level problem that creates separation

2 the skill and stat points that came from 1 new VR level would now come from 1 champion level gain (limited to the character who earned the champion level) but the account still gains a champion level (no changes to the champion system at all)

3 the gear, weapons and item requirements will move from a VR requirement to (#2 above) so no other conversions are needed

4 the character UI screen would depict the individual champ level that is used as a requirement for gear, etc.

5 the NPC levels would all fall to 50-54 in Cadwell areas. In Craglorn NPC's would use a level indicator of 54-60 where it makes sense

I think that's a very simple but realistic approach that addresses everything but doesn't screw up anything.

While your math is correct it wouldn't be a fair system since it currently costs 1,000,000 exp per vet level. It used to increase as you leveled up but they made Vet levels a uniformed amount to level up. So at minimum it would have to be 13 to 14 million, not the 5 -10.5 million you state. That is also assuming that only 35 CP are what's needed to be of equal level and not 70 or 75 which is what they grandfather everyone in with.

So instead of needing to be Vet 2 let's say to use weapon or armor X you would need to be Champion Level 3-4? or level 51? How does solve the I don't want to grind anymore levels problem people are have with the Vet rank system? May be I misunderstanding you points but it seems to me you just want to change the name from Veteran Rank 1-14 to level 50-63 or just use the Champion Level number. So basically nothing will change except the name of the levels. People will still have to grind to reach "max" level. Is this what you mean?

You're making this too complicated.
When removing something...basically anything in that feature is being deleted.
Now we all understand that the system is tied into other things so the other suggestions I have keep those things in tact without breaking any other system, feature.

It's not going to be fair because the system is being removed entirely.
That's the purpose

Okay I am not trying to make this complicated it's a complicated issue to start with, and one that needs to be hashed out. So that the Devs know how the community feels about it before they just toss something together that may not solve the issues the player base is complaining about.

From what I'm reading it seems to me, what you are suggesting isn't changing or removing anything except the name Veteran Rank. Because you are not actually removing the levels you are just hiding them within the Champion Points system. There is still a cap at which you no longer earn Attribute and Skill points. Also you mention that the mobs will get new level numbers like a level 54 mob so that player will know approximately what the mobs power level is. So again you end up implying that there is still a max level above 50 it's just hidden. If this is the case then why have the devs spend their time going through the game changing all of the mobs, gear requirements, and implement the new way the champion system would work and just stick with the system they already have in place? Time I and others think would be better spent working on the very much needed bug fixes and new content. Content that includes new zones and quests not just crown store items because they are putting enough of that type of stuff out already.

wraith808 · June 2015

I have a wacky idea. Don't remove them. They're making too much focus on the part that's not the problem.

Scale VR1-14 in line with the other levels instead of having some arbitrary amount of XP needed.
Unlock all the content, zones, etc at VR1
Quit trying to nerf grinding.
Increase PvP XP

That does everything that is wanted, without having to go through a really complicated re-design, fraught with bugs and missteps.

You don't have to do cadwells at that point.
The XP needed will be small enough that it will go by just as fast as 1-50, no matter which way you chose to do it.

Ozoneknight · June 2015

Somehow, I doubt that they will decrease the level cap. They might make the level cap level 65 instead of VR14, and just change the ranks of the vet players, etc. Somehow, I seriously doubt that they would "grandfather in" already VR players, as that would just completely wreck the game.

Prizax · June 2015

2 CP = 1 Attribute Point

NewBlacksmurf · June 2015

MAOofDC wrote: »

show previous quotes

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Youre either misinterpreting or adding things that were never stated by my suggestion

If it's true that 400k - 800k is the exp needed for 1-2 champion levels then the suggested result of my idea is only 5mil - 10.5 mil per character for a VR 14

That's is waaay better and again my preferred suggestion is 1 champion level gets 1 skill/stat point
5mil < 14 mil

Let me restate just in case AU typed something wrong

1 take the current VR level of any character and roll it into the champion system. (No real changes other than visual and it removes the character level problem that creates separation

2 the skill and stat points that came from 1 new VR level would now come from 1 champion level gain (limited to the character who earned the champion level) but the account still gains a champion level (no changes to the champion system at all)

3 the gear, weapons and item requirements will move from a VR requirement to (#2 above) so no other conversions are needed

4 the character UI screen would depict the individual champ level that is used as a requirement for gear, etc.

5 the NPC levels would all fall to 50-54 in Cadwell areas. In Craglorn NPC's would use a level indicator of 54-60 where it makes sense

I think that's a very simple but realistic approach that addresses everything but doesn't screw up anything.

While your math is correct it wouldn't be a fair system since it currently costs 1,000,000 exp per vet level. It used to increase as you leveled up but they made Vet levels a uniformed amount to level up. So at minimum it would have to be 13 to 14 million, not the 5 -10.5 million you state. That is also assuming that only 35 CP are what's needed to be of equal level and not 70 or 75 which is what they grandfather everyone in with.

So instead of needing to be Vet 2 let's say to use weapon or armor X you would need to be Champion Level 3-4? or level 51? How does solve the I don't want to grind anymore levels problem people are have with the Vet rank system? May be I misunderstanding you points but it seems to me you just want to change the name from Veteran Rank 1-14 to level 50-63 or just use the Champion Level number. So basically nothing will change except the name of the levels. People will still have to grind to reach "max" level. Is this what you mean?

You're making this too complicated.
When removing something...basically anything in that feature is being deleted.
Now we all understand that the system is tied into other things so the other suggestions I have keep those things in tact without breaking any other system, feature.

It's not going to be fair because the system is being removed entirely.
That's the purpose

Okay I am not trying to make this complicated it's a complicated issue to start with, and one that needs to be hashed out. So that the Devs know how the community feels about it before they just toss something together that may not solve the issues the player base is complaining about.

From what I'm reading it seems to me, what you are suggesting isn't changing or removing anything except the name Veteran Rank. Because you are not actually removing the levels you are just hiding them within the Champion Points system. There is still a cap at which you no longer earn Attribute and Skill points. Also you mention that the mobs will get new level numbers like a level 54 mob so that player will know approximately what the mobs power level is. So again you end up implying that there is still a max level above 50 it's just hidden. If this is the case then why have the devs spend their time going through the game changing all of the mobs, gear requirements, and implement the new way the champion system would work and just stick with the system they already have in place? Time I and others think would be better spent working on the very much needed bug fixes and new content. Content that includes new zones and quests not just crown store items because they are putting enough of that type of stuff out already.

-my suggestion "removes the veteran ranks, the veterans system, and veteran restrictions"
-the suggestion does merge some of the VR system into the champion system but honestly you could just delete it all

My thoughts are to respect the VR players and keep the conversion purpose done by ZOS

Yes there is still a cap in my idea
Yes this numerical NPC changes keeps the VR NPC levels but as numerical as you comment it shows an NPC cap level too but it's not hidden which is why you would do this so people feel themselves progressing.

Why would the devs spend time changing into champ sys vs keeping the VR?
-eliminate player separation
-eliminate the grind
-eliminate PvP complaints with the VR system
-they are already doing this as apparent in using a conversion system for VR to Champ Levels

Time is better spent on other things....?
-it becomes a waste of time to fix things if there is a greater overall change coming. Finish the change and fix afterwards so that new content can follow.

If they spend time fixing stuff and delay this big change then any DLC is also delayed

ThePonzzz · June 2015

My guess is they will re-scale the VR zones to a level over 50. I don't think max level will just be 64, we'll probably see something like 75. Players will have a net gain of skill points when they make the change. It won't be the other way around.

Vaelen · June 2015

There really is no clear method out there to fix the old neverending power creep issue in games over time, at least one that doesn't come without political and business related consequences.
In a nutshell:
Player A is a hardcore player that devotes 6-8 hours a day to playing ESO and grinds his way to VR14 and then goes onto trials and experiences all endgame content the game has to offer.

Player B is a casual player that plays 1-2 hours a day who complains about having to grind to VR14 to be able to enjoy the endgame content.

Player A is waiting and anticipating Zenimax to release new endgame content soon for more progression.

Player B is waiting and anticipating for Zenimax to remove Veteran Ranks and make it easier to experience endgame content and bypass the grind.
Statistically Player A devotes more time to the game, and will probably spend more money in the Crown Store than player B.

Player A does not want to give up the time Player A devoted into the grind and the game, and will be disappointed if Zenimax makes all that time wasted for naught through nerfs to Veteran Ranks, Player A may move onto a different game if Zenimax just blanket nerfs all the hardcore players and doesn't release any new content for progression soon.

Player B does not want to grind the way because it takes too long for casual players to compete against hardcore players, and would rather just move onto a different game.

So the politics of it all, is how can you really appease both your casual and hardcore player bases at once without negatively affecting one of the bases? Age old dilemma...

MAOofDC · June 2015

Prizax wrote: »

2 CP = 1 Attribute Point

I ask you is there an upper limit? Because if not your suggestion would give my main 101 extra attributes points it will be 102 by tomorrow. If you think this will provide for a balanced game I have a great bridge in New York City to sell you.

MAOofDC · June 2015

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

show previous quotes

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

I edited the OP to add the third option that has been brought up in this discussion I am putting the text of the added portion below so that people who have been following it don't have to scroll up to the OP to read it.

3. ZoS sets up a system where you gain Attribute and Skill Points based on the number of Champion Points you have gained. While on the surface this seems to solve the problem it actually creates a number of balancing issues making this probably the worst idea. For the sake of argument lets say you get a Skill point for 10 CPs and an Attribute point for every 20 CP. At Champion level 200 you would have 20 skill points,(7 more than would be lost) and 10 attribute points(3 less than lost) sound acceptable so far right? Now add into the fact that CPs are account wide and available to a new alt toon at level 1. So the Alt of someone with a champ 200 toon would start out with 20 skill points and 10 more attributes points that someone brand new to the game. This would only get worse as this toon levels, at level 10 they can start to PvP. At just this level they have a MASSIVE ADAVANTAGE over newer players with access to skills, morphs and passives available to them. Don't forget they would also have greater resources available to them. They will also be at a MAJOR DISADVANTAGE to players that have more CPs. On the PvE side of the game they are just tearing through the zones completely unstoppable because while they are at the "correct" level for the area they so over power the mobs that the game becomes way to easy. This problem will get even worse when they start Cadwell's Silver because they will start gaining new CP's with their already highly augmented toon. That is assuming that Cadwell's Silver and Gold continue to have increasing difficulty as you progress through them, which they may not because all of the mob are at the max of level 50.

The option as I suggested stops just like VR14 stops.
It can only be earned after 50 and the pt is earned per character using each chars independent champ of exp bar.

The only purpose of my idea is to allow each character to earn 13 pts.
If you have to level 1 to 2 champion levels per point that's cool but anything more goes back to the huge chunk of exp needed.

Keeping it simple with every 1-2 champ pts works.

Okay, first thing that comes to mind, what's the upper limit? Remember there is 3600 CPs available. So using your system of a point every 2 CP that's 1800 points seem a little high to you, it does to me. Hell even using my example system you end up with 360 skill points and 180 attribute points which is still to many. So they would need to increase the the CP to point ratio by quite a bit.

Another thing to consider is ZoS has been actively nerfing grind sites left , right, and center. They REALLY don't want people to grind but to quest and go through the content they have lovingly crafted. So to get a toon to have the same amount of skill and attribute points as a Vet 14 will take a considerable amount of time and effort that not everyone can put into the game. Lastly the Champion Point System is fundamentally an account based system, and it needs to be. CPs are a grindy enough thing they don't need to add more grind to every alt a person may have. So having to code a system that track toon A has earned X amount while toon B has earned Y.

Another point my main would be screwed over royally as I am focused on leveling my alts. He is fully leveled and I only use him when I'm running the Vet pledge or running end game content. Which mean he gets MAYBE 1/2 a point for the vet pledge UNLESS I happen to be enlightened at the time I'm running the end game stuff. but chances are he is not because I used it while leveling my alts. So my alts, which are being leveling during the CP era of the game, will have more points because they are the ones that are actually earning more CP for my account as a whole than my main is. I wouldn't be the only person affected by your proposed system, in fact a know a large number of people who would even more boned than me, simply because they already had fully leveled alts before the CP era began.

No, no, no

You're making this way too complicated.

Today
VR has 14 levels (13 skill/ stat gains)

When removed
Gaining (1-2) Champion levels per character gives only the character who earned the 1-2 champion level 1 skill/stat pt up to 13

That's it. No idea where all that other stuff comes from as that's not what I'm suggestion

Simple approach...there it is.
The gear and items follow this and for anyone whose completed any VR levels they keep what they have and fall into the above.

Edit: some may ask well how does someone know if a player can handle an encounter....or how do they track those skill/stat gains?

Good question: They could keep the VR rank indicators of needed in the UI but it wouldn't show as a VR level but just a rank kinda like PvP

Ok I might have not fully read your post as I was eating breakfast while doing so I didn't notice that you had meant to have a upper limit. But that being said having someone at ZoS taking the time to code and test and way to track which character earned X amount of CPs of the account's total amount seems like a bit of a waste of resources to me. Time better spent creating new content or even better hunting down and fixing existing bugs. Not creating new code that might create even more and potentially game wrecking bugs.

There is nothing new to code. Champion points are earned independently by character and the bars are tracked independently already. The indicator is in the UI just like the skill/stat points.

It's nothing new but instead removing the VR leveling parts that separate us and respecting and keeping in text the effort other VR folks have achieved.

When you go into the UI it shows you the char stats and skill pts.

The separation would still exist it would just be called something else. For example when the CP system went live they grandfathered in everyone who had a Vet 14 with 1,000,000 exp banked on it. Giving them 75 CPs, I only got 70 because I didn't have the 1,000,000 exp banked. They also stated that the points were being given out at a discount only costing 200,000 exp per point instead of the 400,000 cost it is today.

So using a system you've outlined for someone to get the skill and attributes points equivalent of a Vet 14 they would need to be at least Champion Level 70. That's 28,000,000 exp points that someone new needs to earn to get to the same amount of skill and attribute points every Vet 14 has now. Under the current system getting those points only cost 14,000,000 points AND they still get CPs. Sure they only earn 35 CPs but it's better than only 35 CPs and only 7 more skill and attributes points. This is assuming that you'll need champion level 70 to be equal in power to vet 14. And even if it's only champion level 35 then people will STILL use the champion level as a measuring stick for weather or not someone can group up with them. If not champion level then maybe total number of attribute points, "Trial Group LF Tank must have 62 attribute points", or something of that nature.

My point being people will always find a way to measure someone up to see if what the group needs to accomplish CAN be accomplished by the individual group members or weather the group will have to carry them to the finish line.

Youre either misinterpreting or adding things that were never stated by my suggestion

If it's true that 400k - 800k is the exp needed for 1-2 champion levels then the suggested result of my idea is only 5mil - 10.5 mil per character for a VR 14

That's is waaay better and again my preferred suggestion is 1 champion level gets 1 skill/stat point
5mil < 14 mil

Let me restate just in case AU typed something wrong

1 take the current VR level of any character and roll it into the champion system. (No real changes other than visual and it removes the character level problem that creates separation

2 the skill and stat points that came from 1 new VR level would now come from 1 champion level gain (limited to the character who earned the champion level) but the account still gains a champion level (no changes to the champion system at all)

3 the gear, weapons and item requirements will move from a VR requirement to (#2 above) so no other conversions are needed

4 the character UI screen would depict the individual champ level that is used as a requirement for gear, etc.

5 the NPC levels would all fall to 50-54 in Cadwell areas. In Craglorn NPC's would use a level indicator of 54-60 where it makes sense

I think that's a very simple but realistic approach that addresses everything but doesn't screw up anything.

While your math is correct it wouldn't be a fair system since it currently costs 1,000,000 exp per vet level. It used to increase as you leveled up but they made Vet levels a uniformed amount to level up. So at minimum it would have to be 13 to 14 million, not the 5 -10.5 million you state. That is also assuming that only 35 CP are what's needed to be of equal level and not 70 or 75 which is what they grandfather everyone in with.

So instead of needing to be Vet 2 let's say to use weapon or armor X you would need to be Champion Level 3-4? or level 51? How does solve the I don't want to grind anymore levels problem people are have with the Vet rank system? May be I misunderstanding you points but it seems to me you just want to change the name from Veteran Rank 1-14 to level 50-63 or just use the Champion Level number. So basically nothing will change except the name of the levels. People will still have to grind to reach "max" level. Is this what you mean?

You're making this too complicated.
When removing something...basically anything in that feature is being deleted.
Now we all understand that the system is tied into other things so the other suggestions I have keep those things in tact without breaking any other system, feature.

It's not going to be fair because the system is being removed entirely.
That's the purpose

Okay I am not trying to make this complicated it's a complicated issue to start with, and one that needs to be hashed out. So that the Devs know how the community feels about it before they just toss something together that may not solve the issues the player base is complaining about.

From what I'm reading it seems to me, what you are suggesting isn't changing or removing anything except the name Veteran Rank. Because you are not actually removing the levels you are just hiding them within the Champion Points system. There is still a cap at which you no longer earn Attribute and Skill points. Also you mention that the mobs will get new level numbers like a level 54 mob so that player will know approximately what the mobs power level is. So again you end up implying that there is still a max level above 50 it's just hidden. If this is the case then why have the devs spend their time going through the game changing all of the mobs, gear requirements, and implement the new way the champion system would work and just stick with the system they already have in place? Time I and others think would be better spent working on the very much needed bug fixes and new content. Content that includes new zones and quests not just crown store items because they are putting enough of that type of stuff out already.

-my suggestion "removes the veteran ranks, the veterans system, and veteran restrictions"
-the suggestion does merge some of the VR system into the champion system but honestly you could just delete it all

My thoughts are to respect the VR players and keep the conversion purpose done by ZOS

Yes there is still a cap in my idea
Yes this numerical NPC changes keeps the VR NPC levels but as numerical as you comment it shows an NPC cap level too but it's not hidden which is why you would do this so people feel themselves progressing.

Why would the devs spend time changing into champ sys vs keeping the VR?
-eliminate player separation
-eliminate the grind
-eliminate PvP complaints with the VR system
-they are already doing this as apparent in using a conversion system for VR to Champ Levels

Time is better spent on other things....?
-it becomes a waste of time to fix things if there is a greater overall change coming. Finish the change and fix afterwards so that new content can follow.

If they spend time fixing stuff and delay this big change then any DLC is also delayed

You have brought up some interesting points I humbly disagree with some of them but I wanted this issues thoroughly discussed and I thank you for providing us with your point of view. Please keep your thoughts and comments coming I'm not ashamed to admit that I would like a dev to chime in and get their thoughts on this subject.

MAOofDC · June 2015

Vaelen wrote: »

There really is no clear method out there to fix the old neverending power creep issue in games over time, at least one that doesn't come without political and business related consequences.
In a nutshell:
Player A is a hardcore player that devotes 6-8 hours a day to playing ESO and grinds his way to VR14 and then goes onto trials and experiences all endgame content the game has to offer.

Player B is a casual player that plays 1-2 hours a day who complains about having to grind to VR14 to be able to enjoy the endgame content.

Player A is waiting and anticipating Zenimax to release new endgame content soon for more progression.

Player B is waiting and anticipating for Zenimax to remove Veteran Ranks and make it easier to experience endgame content and bypass the grind.
Statistically Player A devotes more time to the game, and will probably spend more money in the Crown Store than player B.

Player A does not want to give up the time Player A devoted into the grind and the game, and will be disappointed if Zenimax makes all that time wasted for naught through nerfs to Veteran Ranks, Player A may move onto a different game if Zenimax just blanket nerfs all the hardcore players and doesn't release any new content for progression soon.

Player B does not want to grind the way because it takes too long for casual players to compete against hardcore players, and would rather just move onto a different game.

So the politics of it all, is how can you really appease both your casual and hardcore player bases at once without negatively affecting one of the bases? Age old dilemma...

This is totally at the heart of this issue hitting the nail on the head my friend.

Gidorick · June 2015

Power creep is an issue... people who play more are more powerful. The game ends up being just for hardcore players that have been in the game for a very long time.

ZOS needs a system that gives long-time players rewards for playing more, yet doesn't make new players feel like they have absolutely NO chance against those long-time players.

I think a pretty good solution solution is the concept of player scaling. Have a zone that is constructed for the top tier players and if lower players go into the zone, they are scaled to the zone.

This is the same for Cyrodiil, always have Cyrodiil designed for the top tier players... just scale the lower players up to the appropriate level. That's pretty much what's happening now.

Where the issues come in are the different skills that the top tier players have. Those will come into effect but two players, one level 15 and one level 50, should be on somewhat equal ground.

I don't think there's a perfect solution to this... but scaling would make sure a level 50 player isn't 5X as powerful as a level 10 player.

spoqster · June 2015

There is a very simple solution. They can reward the 13 skill points and attribute bumps as a reward for reaching level 50. That would make it completely fair and provide a nice bit of motivation to reach max level.

If you want to make it a bit less drastic, you can award these for quests, such as 3 for killing Molag Bal, and another 5 for finishing Cadwell's Silver and Gold respectively. You could even split it up and award one for each zone. That way everyone could get it.

There is also the option to handle skill points and attribute bumps differently, by awarding the skill points (such as mentioned above) so that people don't have to create an alt just to fit in that crafting skill line, but to take away the attribute points. It will be a fair solution. It won't matter in PVP, since it is the same for all players. And in PVE, you'd have to change an enchantment or two, or do an attribute respec (which will be available for free) to keep your char above that magic 18k mark. The loss in dps you'd get from lowering mag/stam will be the same for everyone, so it will be fair.

All in all: Not a problem.

arena25 · June 2015

Garwulf wrote: »

Do not worry about that as I suspect the game will be dead before that occurs. The Fun Wowsers will have made sure of that.

Somewhere in oblivion, Molag Bal sharpened his claws and said to Mannimarco, "Mannimarco, I'm bored. Let's discuss ways of getting my latest victim..."