Scale World to Player Level.

  • fosley_ESO
    fosley_ESO
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    Rune_Relic wrote: »
    You see bigger damage, bigger armour.....but does it really make you more powerful ? No.
    You just have the illusion of being more powerful as the stats increase to match levelled NPCs.
    Except ..if you go to underlevelled or overlevelled zones.
    That last part is key here. You can do quests at "too low" of a level and have a challenge, or you can wait until you're a few levels past them and make them easier. If the NPCs all scaled, you would be forced to fight them at one difficulty no matter what.

    Also, things like skyshard hunting become much easier when you're worried less about dying and more about actually searching for it, and if you're not a quester, you can just go back and blow through quest-lines to get some skill points instead of having to work for them so hard. For some people, you're right and it won't matter one way or the other. For others though, forced NPC scaling would make certain tasks too tedious to bother, while still others find the lack of scaling makes old content boring.
    UrQuan wrote: »
    What I'd really like to see is more replayability of lower level zones.
    I think the main problem with this is why the zones were fun to begin with. For me, I enjoy the zone because of the storylines and being able to explore a new area. Once I've done that, coming back once a week to kill some boss or another isn't really "replaying" the zone so much as having to travel through the zone to kill a boss. The only thing that would really help replayability to me is if there was actual new content on a regular basis.

    The other thing you can do, is have sub-zones with different leveling. So maybe you go through Rivenspire at level 20 and there are hints of a war, but mostly the quests deal with other things. Then at level 40, the war is in full swing, and you have to go put down an uprising or kick out the Dominion or whatever. I think it would work better though if the questing wasn't split by faction. Maybe you have to come back to Daggerfall at VR6 for a quest chain, instead of never looking back after level 50.

    This way, you're not really getting more content, but it means you're seeing old zones in a new light, plus it makes the zones feel more alive, like people are actually able to progress their lives without your immediate assistance.
  • Majic
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    Dynamic level adjustment is much, much better.

    It doesn't solve the problems caused by a lack of repeatable content, but at least it allows players to leave the End-Game Ghetto and not be confronted by a world full of gray mobs that give no XP.
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  • UrQuan
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    fosley_ESO wrote: »
    UrQuan wrote: »
    What I'd really like to see is more replayability of lower level zones.
    I think the main problem with this is why the zones were fun to begin with. For me, I enjoy the zone because of the storylines and being able to explore a new area. Once I've done that, coming back once a week to kill some boss or another isn't really "replaying" the zone so much as having to travel through the zone to kill a boss. The only thing that would really help replayability to me is if there was actual new content on a regular basis.

    The other thing you can do, is have sub-zones with different leveling. So maybe you go through Rivenspire at level 20 and there are hints of a war, but mostly the quests deal with other things. Then at level 40, the war is in full swing, and you have to go put down an uprising or kick out the Dominion or whatever. I think it would work better though if the questing wasn't split by faction. Maybe you have to come back to Daggerfall at VR6 for a quest chain, instead of never looking back after level 50.

    This way, you're not really getting more content, but it means you're seeing old zones in a new light, plus it makes the zones feel more alive, like people are actually able to progress their lives without your immediate assistance.
    That's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I mentioned "one-time quests that send you back there." There was another thread some time ago where I suggested things like a quest for Ebonheart characters to go back and re-take Bleakrock, or a quest for Daggerfall characters to go back and investigate sabotage that's delaying the rebuilding of Camlorn, and similar things. I'd love to have reasons to go back and re-visit those locations, and this type of quest is one of the ways that this could be achieved (with phasing). From the point of view of content creation, it's less work for ZOS to re-use an existing location for a quest than it is to create a brand new location for a quest, so theoretically this type of content could be produced much more quickly.
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  • Triddle
    Triddle
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    Natjur wrote: »
    One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.
    GW2 did it by scaling you DOWN to match the zone. But unless your in an instance (which scales to the leader) there is no way to have the zone scale to you cause if your L50 and standing next a a L10 player..... what level did you want the zone to scale to.....?????

    Actually its (conceptually) simple. You just scale damage depending on who is doing/receiving it. To use your example, L50 standing next to L10, let's say the mobs are L30.

    L10 attacks mob, his damage is scaled to L30 damage.
    L10 is attacked by mob, its damage is scaled to L10 damage.
    L50 attacks mob, his damage is scaled to L30 damage.
    L50 is attacked by mob, its damage is scaled to L50 damage.

    The question is whether that's something you really want to see in game.
  • DogFaceInBananaPatch
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    If zones scaled to the players level then might as well remove character levels and if there's no character levels then there's no reason to scale and if nothing scales then might as well just stand there and win.
  • rager82b14_ESO
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    Know what would be better?

    A option that lets you make a group, and have your own personal little phase zone of the world. Where it is just your group, and you can scale how tough the enemies is, and have some control over your adventure.

    Or if you want to play solo, and not break into a home, just to see a naked cat girl and guy doing who knows what over a corpse.
  • Gidorick
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    I would love for ESO to have a more "open world" feeling... I don't see why this would be a problem or.
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  • DanielMaxwell
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    one problem with all of the ideas for scaling the zones to the players ignores one very important fact , all of the scaling programing would have to run on the server to prevent less then honest players from cheating . that would add considerable amounts of serverside code that would take up vital processing cycles , leading to increased server lag.
  • UrQuan
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    Actually, if you really wanted to get fancy with scaling open world content, you could do it something like this:

    Say mobs in this zone are level 30. If your character's level is within 4 levels of that (in either direction) there is no scaling of damage. You do damage to the mobs at your actual level, and they do damage to you at their actual level. So if you're level 26-34, fighting that mob is no different than it would be today.

    If your character's level is not within 4 levels of the mob's level, then the damage the mob does to you is scaled enough to bring it within 4 levels, and the damage you do to the mob is scaled enough to bring it within 4 levels. So, for example, a level 10 player fighting this level 30 mob would have the damage he does to the mob scaled up as if he were a level 26 player, while the damage the mob does to the player would be scaled down as if it were a level 14 mob. Equally, a level 50 player would have the damage he does to the mob scaled down to be as if he were a level 34 player, while the damage the mob does to the player will scale up to be as if it were a level 46 mob.

    You can combine this with the idea of maximum scaling, so that the effective levels added or subtracted when scaling the damage can't be any more than, say 10.

    So if you combine those two concepts, the level 10 player fighting the level 30 mob will only have his damage done scaled up to level 20, while a level 20 player fighting the same mob would have his damage done scaled up to level 26.
    Edited by UrQuan on March 31, 2015 11:48PM
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  • Sinthrax
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    Honestly, I am about to the point I wish they would shut the servers down. I haven't seen anything in over a month that anyone is satisfied about in ESO. Read through the forums...everyone wants things changed to make it like Skyrim or more single player friendly. I have totally given up...

    I need to stay off the forums because they have ruined the game for me. I already don't like some of the changes they have made and if they listen to 95% of the people here...then to ME its headed in the wrong direction. And don't say they aren't listening because alot of the future changes and content are already based on exactly what people here are asking for. The wrong direction for me...

    I want danger and hard PvE. Not the crap we have now...kill 10 mobs and still full health. Really? And people want it made even easier. No danger, no accomplishment, solo dungeons, cheaper horse upgrades, easier to get end game gear, easier to level....and that is just a few. I could go on but why?


    Sigh.....
  • Gidorick
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    Sinthrax wrote: »
    Honestly, I am about to the point I wish they would shut the servers down. I haven't seen anything in over a month that anyone is satisfied about in ESO. Read through the forums...everyone wants things changed to make it like Skyrim or more single player friendly. I have totally given up...

    I need to stay off the forums because they have ruined the game for me. I already don't like some of the changes they have made and if they listen to 95% of the people here...then to ME its headed in the wrong direction. And don't say they aren't listening because alot of the future changes and content are already based on exactly what people here are asking for. The wrong direction for me...

    I want danger and hard PvE. Not the crap we have now...kill 10 mobs and still full health. Really? And people want it made even easier. No danger, no accomplishment, solo dungeons, cheaper horse upgrades, easier to get end game gear, easier to level....and that is just a few. I could go on but why?


    Sigh.....

    Well, part of the reason the forum is rife with dissatisfaction is that no new content has come out in what.. 5 months? and we have at least 3 or 4 months left to wait.
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  • UrQuan
    UrQuan
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    Sinthrax wrote: »
    I want danger and hard PvE. Not the crap we have now...kill 10 mobs and still full health. Really? And people want it made even easier.
    You may have missed it, but what people are primarily asking for in this thread is scaling that will allow them to go back to lower level zones without it being a faceroll. That's the opposite of wanting it made even easier.
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  • JD2013
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    I am not much of an MMO player, but even I know that is not how it works.

    Why are people so insistent on trying to make this game into Skyrim? I mean, they have already stated that all future content will scale to your level (or, rather, you will scale to the content)

    I sincerely doubt that any MMO or RPG would have lasted without content that you have to work for and get tougher for, and without character progression.

    Where is the character progression if everything scales to you? Where is the incentive?
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  • Jroc
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    If it scales completely then people are no longer given the option to over-level content if they find it difficult, which in an MMO where you can't adjust the difficulty is a much greater problem than the level 50 wanting to go back and do an area they skipped over.

    And if it has a cap then it doesn't really solve the issue as many areas will still be grayed out for higher levels making the idea quite a bit pointless. Also it would require someone to drastically over-level content they are having trouble with, which is ridiculous to demand of them just so someone can go back and re do some skipped content at their level.
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  • Eliteseraph
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    Jroc wrote: »
    Sorry this isn't Skyrim. Doing this would create large complications and basically result in a single-player game as every zone would be instanced.

    Not at all. Just scale players to the zone similar to how GW2 does it.
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  • Sinthrax
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    UrQuan wrote: »
    Sinthrax wrote: »
    I want danger and hard PvE. Not the crap we have now...kill 10 mobs and still full health. Really? And people want it made even easier.
    You may have missed it, but what people are primarily asking for in this thread is scaling that will allow them to go back to lower level zones without it being a faceroll. That's the opposite of wanting it made even easier.

    If its ACTUALLY hard but I am judging it off a mobs in game now. ALL the equal level mobs in game now are WAY to easy. If with this change they scale UP the difficulty then I wouldn't mind. That was my point.
  • Jroc
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    Jroc wrote: »
    Sorry this isn't Skyrim. Doing this would create large complications and basically result in a single-player game as every zone would be instanced.

    Not at all. Just scale players to the zone similar to how GW2 does it.

    Read above.
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  • fosley_ESO
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    UrQuan wrote: »
    Say mobs in this zone are level 30. If your character's level is within 4 levels of that (in either direction) there is no scaling of damage. You do damage to the mobs at your actual level, and they do damage to you at their actual level. So if you're level 26-34, fighting that mob is no different than it would be today.

    If your character's level is not within 4 levels of the mob's level, then the damage the mob does to you is scaled enough to bring it within 4 levels, and the damage you do to the mob is scaled enough to bring it within 4 levels.
    This is an interesting concept. It would certainly solve some of the issues I mentioned earlier. However, I still don't think scaling players up to do high-levels zone is a great idea in an MMO. And if you only scale players down this way, skilled, high-level players will only be slightly less annoyed with how easy it is.

    However, I can think of a fix. Players have asked for a difficulty slider before. We could have a slider with 9 settings. The hardest setting scales players down to the NPC Level - 4, the middle is L, the easiest setting is L + 4. I would suggest that it will never increase the player's effective level beyond their earned level, but this could still be a nice mechanism. I would also suggest the option to disable scaling entirely so you can have a more typical leveling experience if you want.
  • fromtesonlineb16_ESO
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    One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.
    Skyrim was a solo off-line game, ESO is a multiplayer on-line game, it can't be done except in solo-only instances.

    Also, many TES fans hated level-scaling in Oblivion and Skyrim, as @BBSooner noted.
    Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on April 1, 2015 7:23AM
  • bertenburnyb16_ESO
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    or scale player down (not up) to world lvl, so u can play with lower lvl friends, and it wouldn't create such a phasing mess, end lvl players in low lvl zones would still be a little more powerfull then a lvl apropriate player, but it would still be a little challenging (but since pve is way to easy only when your 10 lvls below content it gets a little challanging, but thats a discussion for another topic) this gives end lvl players the option to go back to other zones, and not just oneshot everything
    now they only need to add an incentive, like bigg ass bosses that spawn priodically or questchains for instance a town is getting attacked by an enemy alliance, and last quest could be a hard world boss wich takes multiple players (and also scales up with the amount of players interacting, just like anchors should do...)

    I have said this so many times already.... zos wants to leave end lvl players with minimal options it seems
    Edited by bertenburnyb16_ESO on April 1, 2015 8:04AM
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  • Faulgor
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    fosley_ESO wrote: »
    Rune_Relic wrote: »
    You see bigger damage, bigger armour.....but does it really make you more powerful ? No.
    You just have the illusion of being more powerful as the stats increase to match levelled NPCs.
    Except ..if you go to underlevelled or overlevelled zones.
    That last part is key here. You can do quests at "too low" of a level and have a challenge, or you can wait until you're a few levels past them and make them easier. If the NPCs all scaled, you would be forced to fight them at one difficulty no matter what.

    Generally I would agree, but there's already no point to do that in ESO. Mobs too low for your level don't drop any loot or exp, mobs too high have a steep hit penalty and don't give full exp IIRC. The game already tries hard to keep you in a certain level bracket, and there's no reward to step out of it.
    If they want to keep it that way, I say let them introduce more scaling, like the guild questlines and upcoming DLC. This way I can at least chose when to do content and still get rewarded. A true open leveling experience without penalties in lower/higher areas would be preferable, but I don't see that happening at all.
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  • Horrum
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    One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.

    How? If there are 100 people with different levels in the zone, what then? It doesn't work that way in an MMO.
  • Flynch
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    Mentoring should be the way forwards. Frankly it should have been part and parcel from launch imo.
  • michael_bimson
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    Neverwinter introduced a scaling system for some of their instanced PvE battles (possibly they were termed scenarios but I cannot remember the name reliably). The mobs in these instances had a skull replace the level number and were scaled in such a way as to allow high level players to play alongside low level players and maintain the challenge for both players.

    Would it be nice to purposefully revisit outleveled areas? Yes.

    Should this be achieved through scaling? I have to say no, I instinctively think its too big a drain on resources to look into scaling entire zones. What could the devs be working on while they are working this out, what impact will it have on lag? Open to suggestion on this though, as it is my gut reaction rather than one based in experience.

    Could this be achieved through the addition of some high level content to out of the way areas in the existing zones? This would be my preferred option.

    However if this could be achieved without too much extra server load I would approve of this:
    fosley_ESO wrote: »
    Players have asked for a difficulty slider before. We could have a slider with 9 settings. The hardest setting scales players down to the NPC Level - 4, the middle is L, the easiest setting is L + 4. I would suggest that it will never increase the player's effective level beyond their earned level, but this could still be a nice mechanism. I would also suggest the option to disable scaling entirely so you can have a more typical leveling experience if you want.

  • Seraphyel
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    Jroc wrote: »
    Sorry this isn't Skyrim. Doing this would create large complications and basically result in a single-player game as every zone would be instanced.

    Guild Wars 2 is scaling your character down to the level of the zone. That's quite nice when you want to go back or just develop your character through lower level zones - and guess what, it works totally fine.
  • drackonir
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    sadownik wrote: »
    i would love to see mechanism similar to that in GW2 here, it wiould allow me to return to lower lvl zones. RIght now its a waste of huge work - after finishing you have no need returing to lower lvl zone. If combined with some kind of events and random missions it would make a lot for ESO.

    So you are saying, that right now you cannot return to lover lvl zones? ;) And what is your purpose of returning there? haven't you completed all the content? Or you are one of those who leveled up to vet 14 on grinding mobs and now you would like to try the story line? :expressionless:
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  • Rune_Relic
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    To recap then ...
    1. People want to revisit low levels
    2. People want to level the content.
    3. People want to over/under level content.
    4. ZOS has put a 5 level window on content reward.

    So its pretty much as suggested above as the best compromise.
    Scale combat on a level vs level basis (with +/- 4 level window).
    Put the Level on a silder + or - 4 levels on the user interface.

    Those who want hard content would set the slider at -4 to reduce their personal level [with higher reward]
    Those who want easy content would set the slider at +4 to increase their personal level [with lower reward].
    Those 8 levels below will be scaled 8 levels higher + slider value
    Those 20 levels higher will be scaled 20 levels lower + slider value.

    This way everyone can decide if they want harder/easier content or better/worse reward.
    This isn't too far removed from the level reward penalty system in place.
    They are scaling players to content in future anyway.
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  • Seth_Black
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    One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.

    You're insane.
    Go to ANY mmo developer studio for a trip, stay for a day, look how it looks like to work on it
    Come back, delete your post.
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  • asteldian
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    No scaling please, it was one of the worst aspects in later TES games. Gw2 stlye was also horrible so don't go force scaling me down either.
    While not a fan of scaling in general, I can just about deal with the future DLC plans of scaling players up.
  • Faulgor
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    asteldian wrote: »
    No scaling please, it was one of the worst aspects in later TES games. Gw2 stlye was also horrible so don't go force scaling me down either.
    While not a fan of scaling in general, I can just about deal with the future DLC plans of scaling players up.

    To be fair, the single player scaling was entirely different than the scaling we see in Cyrodiil and will see in future DLC. In ESO, scaling your level up to the world leaves enough room for progression through skills, abilities and gear. On the other hand, in Oblivion for example, your skills would directly influence your level and thus your stats, and the world would scale to you. This resulted in not feeling any progression or worse, feeling weaker with a higher level if you increased your level with non-combat skills like Security. Both won't be an issue in ESO's system, which has different problems, but not those.
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