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Scale World to Player Level.

Hassgrinsen
One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.
  • WraithAzraiel
    WraithAzraiel
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    No.

    As a work around, new DLC zones will be exploreable by everyone, as the player will be scaled up to the level of the zone, akin to how battle-leveling works in Cyrodiil.
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  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    It's not that they can't work that way, it;'s just that no-one's done it before.

    I don't see why mob damage and HP can't scale according to who it is hitting, nor why player damage can't scale according to what is being hit.

    In other words, if a level 10 character hits a level 10 mob for 100 damage, then the mob takes (after modifiers) 100% damage from that attack.

    If a level 40 player hits the same mob, then the player damage is scaled down by some formula, to hit for approximately the same point value as the level 10 player, but would only actually be hitting for say 25% of their max damage.

    Same applies to mobs hitting players... low level mobs hitting high level players get their damage scaled up for that player only.

    Once all the other damage calculations are done, just run the final number through a multiplier based on attacker/target level difference and that's it. It might not be 100% correct, but I don't think it would be too difficult to come up with a simple multiplier that would still enable challenge for Veteran players in the low-level zones.

    Obviously, this wouldn't be done for a low-level player having their damage scaled up to hit higher level mobs.
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  • PKMN12
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    you....don't understand how MMO's work, do you.......
  • UrQuan
    UrQuan
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    PKMN12 wrote: »
    MMO's CANNOT work that way, there is no maybe here.
    They actually sort of can if you plan it right. Here's how it would work:

    Say you're in a "level 30" area. All of the mobs are set as level 30.

    A mob is fighting a level 10 character.

    The mob is still level 30, but when he hits the character, the damage done to the character is scaled down to what it would be if the mob was level 10.

    When the character hits the mob, the character is still level 10, but the damage done to the mob is scaled up to what it would be if the character was level 30.

    If it was set up like this (so scaling is done to damage and is done based on whatever is taking the damage), then level 10 characters and level 50 characters could all be fighting the same mobs (even at the same time) and all be having similar levels of difficulty (although the higher level characters would still have the advantage of having more skills and passives).

    You could even set it so that the scaling will only work within a certain range (so a level 30 mob will only have its damage scaled by a maximum of 10 levels down to as if it was a level 20 mob, and a level 10 character would only have his damage scaled by a maximum of 10 levels up to as if he was a level 20 character, for example).
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  • Endurance
    Endurance
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    Jroc wrote: »
    Sorry this isn't Skyrim. Doing this would create large complications and basically result in a single-player game as every zone would be instanced.

    it never caused a single problem in guild wars 2.. so if ESO couldnt properly do that then its definately a problem with the game
    Natjur wrote: »
    One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.
    GW2 did it by scaling you DOWN to match the zone. But unless your in an instance (which scales to the leader) there is no way to have the zone scale to you cause if your L50 and standing next a a L10 player..... what level did you want the zone to scale to.....?????

    it doesnt scale to match the player, it scales to match that particular map and the level of the monsters on it
    Edited by Endurance on March 31, 2015 9:25PM
    I'm outta here
  • Miszou
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    PKMN12 wrote: »
    you....don't understand how MMO's work, do you.......

    Sure I do.

    But people seem to be focusing on scaling the zone by character level, when you can just as easily scale the damage by level difference.

    The zone can still be populated by level 10 mobs or whatever, but when a level 40 character shows up in it, they should only deal 25% of their damage output and take 400% more damage. (Assuming a completely linear scale for simplicity)

    edit: I suck at math. Fixed it.
    Edited by Miszou on March 31, 2015 9:32PM
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  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
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    I hate to tell people that think it can't be done, but level syncing isn't new to MMOs. In EQ2 you could sync to a group member's level or talk to an NPC that let you go down to a desired level to do content.

    If you're curious how this works http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Mentoring.
    :trollin:
  • Tandor
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    And so the one remaining piece is slotted into the "Finish the Game in a Day" jigsaw, with the newly-created character scaled to the ultimate boss mob :smiley: !

    This is neither Skyrim nor GW2, it is a MMORPG. Big difference.
  • PKMN12
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    Endurance wrote: »
    Jroc wrote: »
    Sorry this isn't Skyrim. Doing this would create large complications and basically result in a single-player game as every zone would be instanced.

    it never caused a single problem in guild wars 2.. so if ESO couldnt properly do that then its definately a problem with the game
    Natjur wrote: »
    One of the best thing's about Skyrim was that the game would scale to your character's power. Would be great if all the old content wasn't a complete waste. I mean, there is a huge diversity of content, and we're pretty much pigeon holed into Craglorn, which isn't so diverse.
    GW2 did it by scaling you DOWN to match the zone. But unless your in an instance (which scales to the leader) there is no way to have the zone scale to you cause if your L50 and standing next a a L10 player..... what level did you want the zone to scale to.....?????

    it doesnt scale to match the player, it scales to match that particular map and the level of the monsters on it

    yeah, but that is not what the OP wants. Anyway, even then, a higher level player still tends to be more powerful thanks to gear and moves.
  • Miszou
    Miszou
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    Tandor wrote: »
    And so the one remaining piece is slotted into the "Finish the Game in a Day" jigsaw, with the newly-created character scaled to the ultimate boss mob :smiley: !

    This is neither Skyrim nor GW2, it is a MMORPG. Big difference.

    No, because obviously it would only scale in one direction.
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  • haileyjschmidtub17_ESO
    I'm quite happy with the way this games leveling works.
    You're lucky that a low level can even fight higher levels. Most MMO's if you fought something 20 level's higher then you you'd get your crap rocked. In this game with a little more effort and planning you can fight way higher mobs.
    Perhaps put together a better build to go tackle harder things if you really don't want to level in the zone you're in.
  • Ysne58
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    If it were possible I would love it. Quests turn white so fast for me in levels 1 to 50 it's not funny. I'd love for that content to scale up to vet level once I've reached that level.
  • Gix
    Gix
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    Endurance wrote: »
    it doesnt scale to match the player, it scales to match that particular map and the level of the monsters on it
    In GW2, it is neither.

    It scales the player DOWN to match the level the zone that it was designed for. Final Fantasy 14 does the same for their events and dungeons.

    The OP is asking to scale the zone to match the player.
  • UrQuan
    UrQuan
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    Miszou wrote: »
    Tandor wrote: »
    And so the one remaining piece is slotted into the "Finish the Game in a Day" jigsaw, with the newly-created character scaled to the ultimate boss mob :smiley: !

    This is neither Skyrim nor GW2, it is a MMORPG. Big difference.

    No, because obviously it would only scale in one direction.
    Depends on how it's implemented. You could very easily set things up so that in most zones it scaled in both directions (potentially with limits, as I talked about above, so that it will scale a maximum of X levels), while still keeping some zones/dungeons that will scale up, but not down. That way you keep the people who want to explore different zones in the order of their choosing happy, while still keeping some content as only for experienced players.
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  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    To be honest this game needs something like this. I quickly out-level the game's content and then the enemies don't even drop loot. I'll never understand how anyone can have a hard time leveling on this game.

    For example: it was annoying having to fight my way through the halls of the dead day before yesterday and not get a single drop from any of the enemies I killed (many of which were rather difficult I might add). Yet based on the sole fact I was higher level I got nothing from them. It was B.S.

    Some kind of changes do need to take place. Downscaling everyone to a max level on the zones like Guild Wars 2 does could work and obviously can be done on an MMORPG (since it has been done). So that's one way they could address this problem. Because I agree with the OP - this is a real issue for this game and needs some attention.
    Edited by Jeremy on March 31, 2015 9:46PM
  • fosley_ESO
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    If low-level characters can scale up to every npc in the world, then why bother even having levels? Just get rid of levels and the only way to advance your character is by earning skill points and upgrading your gear.

    I think EQ2's system would be the best here. High-level characters can go to a guy who temporarily reduces their effective character level to whatever the content is at. Then you still have the same sense of progression, and you can still level up to make hard content easier, but if you want to go back and play through some low-level content you missed, you can do it at-level so it's more fun.

    Something you could do is adjust quest rewards so they're commensurate with the player's current level. Then a VR4 could still level up via level 20 quests, and maybe get an item upgrade here or there.

    Also, the TES series' issue with the world scaling to the player level has been one of the most hotly complained about issues ever. The Fallout games helped with this by making individual enemies fixed, so a Supermutant Master is always the same strength, but at higher levels you see more Masters and fewer regular guys. In Skyrim, my understanding was zones had a level range. So a specific dungeon might be a level 10-20 dungeon. If you go in at level 4, it scales down, but only to 10, so it's hard. If you go in at 40, it scales up to 20, so it's easy. In all the newer games, certain zones are much more likely to contain high-level enemies than other zones.

    I can see the appeal of being able to just go to whatever zone you want and have a reasonable challenge, but then you end up with this feeling that you never get more powerful. At the same time, I personally think it would seem more plausible if zone difficulty reflected the kind of enemies there. So zones with major towns in them should be low-level zones, because there are a bunch of guards and soldiers policing the bulk of the baddies. Then zones with open warfare, little faction presence, and/or lots of powerful monsters should be the high-level zones, because the best of the best aren't enough.

    On that note, I also enjoy some level-mixing in zones. Just because I'm in Daggerfall where everything is civilized and orderly doesn't mean I can't run into a VR4 brigand in a back alley who demands all my gold or my head. Maybe there's a vampire coven in the mountains outside Wayrest. Stay away and you'll be fine, but venture inside before level 40 or something and you become dinner.

    You could even make it part of an on-going quest line. "I was ambushed by a Brigand today. I hate him, and vow eternal vengeance. I'll have to hunt him down when I get stronger." Then sometime after hitting VR2, you get a note in the mail. "I overheard your conversation with the bartender at the inn last night, and I have a lead on the guy you're looking for. Meet me at the graveyard in Dhalmora tonight with 500 gold for my trouble."
  • sadownik
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    i would love to see mechanism similar to that in GW2 here, it wiould allow me to return to lower lvl zones. RIght now its a waste of huge work - after finishing you have no need returing to lower lvl zone. If combined with some kind of events and random missions it would make a lot for ESO.
  • haileyjschmidtub17_ESO
    Everyone keeps talking about returning to finish things 8)
    Why not just do everything when you're in that zone ;)
    Haven't missed a quest ever 8)
  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
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    As you level...
    1. Player Armour + damage + skills increase.
    2. NPC Armour + damage + skills increase.
    You normally end up levelled against 3+ NPCs anyway as long as you are in the right zone.
    [granted you understand the systems better as you gain more experience so find it easier]

    So either way...NPC = Character

    You see bigger damage, bigger armour.....but does it really make you more powerful ? No.
    You just have the illusion of being more powerful as the stats increase to match levelled NPCs.
    Except ..if you go to underlevelled or overlevelled zones.

    As everyone should be in the appropriate level anyway....whats the difference ?
    Noone gets any XP for NPCs 5+ levels lower so its clearly not intended for you to take on low level stuff.

    vis a vis.... Whats the point of levelled zones ?

    Its kind of like saying if I go from Italy to france....everyone suddenly becomes siginificantly weaker simply because I am on a different part of the world ?????!!

    Like wolfs and mudcrabs....should there be level 10 versions and Vet10 versions or the same beast ?
    Are they on steroids ...or subject to nuclear irradiation or something ?

    What does need to level is skills/proficiency with weapon/spell/armour etc.
    We need to keep facing new challenges, learning new stuff, progressing our character.
    Edited by Rune_Relic on March 31, 2015 10:20PM
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  • ElliottXO
    ElliottXO
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    Auto-leveling enemies is the main reason why I hated oblivion. It destroys your progression.
  • UrQuan
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    Everyone keeps talking about returning to finish things 8)
    Why not just do everything when you're in that zone ;)
    Haven't missed a quest ever 8)
    I've hardly ever missed a quest in a zone, but that doesn't mean that I don't ever want to visit those zones again. What I'd really like to see is more replayability of lower level zones. There are various ways to achieve this (daily quests, one-time quests that send you back there, raids, events, etc), but for any of those to work there would have to be some sort of scaling involved. Otherwise you're just facerolling everything and getting no XP or loot, which combines to make it all feel like a waste of time.
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  • Rune_Relic
    Rune_Relic
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    Do we even need levels with the CS + skyshard system ?
    Anything that can be exploited will be exploited
  • haileyjschmidtub17_ESO
    Rune_Relic wrote: »
    Do we even need levels with the CS + skyshard system ?

    That would be grounds for leaving :(
    What would the point be then?
    Levels are a nice little "Congrats you're accomplishing something!"
    Grinding skyshards just seems like a long annoying quest.
  • UrQuan
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    Rune_Relic wrote: »
    Its kind of like saying if I go from Italy to france....everyone suddenly becomes siginificantly weaker
    Must resist urge to turn this comment into an insulting joke about the French...
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  • R1ckyDaMan
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    If only they had done the game with no level req for any zone and made them all the same from the start, and used champ system from start for progression..
  • DDuke
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    No, why dumb down the game?

    Level scaling has been the most criticized introduction to the Elder Scrolls series ever since Oblivion.

    If you want a mentoring system, where your character is downleveled to the zone level while playing with a low level friend, that's fine.

    But I want my character to matter. I want places where my character cannot go yet (or can, but will have trouble...), which require my character to become stronger and I want places where my character feels powerful.

    BBSooner wrote: »
    I more enjoyed Morrowind where the world didn't scale. Some areas felt definitively more dangerous than others, it gave a sense of danger as opposed to a sense that everything is more or less my equal.

    Pretty much this.
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