ZOS I will pay you $30+ to change my RACE

Iluvrien · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

So your reason for not having race change, is because there a few elitist A-holes in the game who won't group with you or make fun of your race?

No. That people would do that (not to me) is a reason, but it isn't the only one.

The other ones I have relate to Lore, decisions having an impact, population swings based on FOTM, incentivizing ZOS to concentrate on the wrong kind of content generation, people shouting for unpaid changes every time a racial ability was changed by a fraction of a percent... and several others culminating with that if racial abilities were actually either less impactful or more balanced then we wouldn't need this extra mechanic anyway.

Having a single reason for something that is this complex and has this amount of scope to affect the dynamics of the game as a whole? That would be silly.

[Edit: Just to remove the self-serving aspect from this, I have no problems getting into groups and nobody has criticised my build]

AngryNord · March 2015

Spangla wrote: »

if no race change then race balance is a must - khajit racials vs imperial for instance is a joke - comon zeni it is time you addressed this

Why should they address something that is so ingrown in TES lore? This game has destroyed TES lore way too much as is.

AngryNord · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

if no race change then race balance is a must - khajit racials vs imperial for instance is a joke - comon zeni it is time you addressed this

Then why not make it for in-game gold? Otherwise it is simply P2W.

10 000 crowns, and the character gets all achievements, skillpoints etc wiped and starts as level 1 in the Coldharbour cell. That'd teach them.

Iluvrien · March 2015

Junkogen wrote: »

Yeah, you're right. However, this game takes some big departures with certain races. For instance, Orcs had berserker in Skyrim and none of their racial abilities in ESO reflect that. Argonians are supposed to be masters of guerrilla warfare and none of their racials reflect that. In any event, they're not all that balanced given the class and overall game design. For example, Dunmers synch up incredibly well with dragonknights. Other races don't have that. It's just a little annoying.

True enough, ESO is taking liberties.

Wasn't Berserker a triggered power in the earlier games? I remember that it was in Morrowind and Oblivion. The difference might be the loss of racial ultimates during the production process. Berserker wasn't a constant or passive ability, so we might have seen it in that (cut) system instead.

That said, it doesn't go again the initial point of them having taken liberties.

Ley · March 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

So your reason for not having race change, is because there a few elitist A-holes in the game who won't group with you or make fun of your race?

No. That people would do that (not to me) is a reason, but it isn't the only one.

The other ones I have relate to Lore, decisions having an impact, population swings based on FOTM, incentivizing ZOS to concentrate on the wrong kind of content generation, people shouting for unpaid changes every time a racial ability was changed by a fraction of a percent... and several others culminating with that if racial abilities were actually either less impactful or more balanced then we wouldn't need this extra mechanic anyway.

Having a single reason for something that is this complex and has this amount of scope to affect the dynamics of the game as a whole? That would be silly.

[Edit: Just to remove the self-serving aspect from this, I have no problems getting into groups and nobody has criticised my build]

I assumed since you didn't address any other elements of my post that touched on all those topics, that that was the one reason that you had a problem with.

Explain to me why/how race change would be lore breaking or how this would change anything for you in game. You probably wouldn't even notice if anyone but your closest friends changed their race. As a few people have mentioned, including me, there are plenty of creative ways that the designers could add a bit of lore to support the race change. To be quite frank, this is just a game, even if it was implemented with no supporting lore, I don't think it would be much of a big deal to that many people.

I guess neither of us can know exactly how this whole FotM deal would go unless it was implemented. Do you really think thousands of players would pay to change their race every time someone discovered a 2% advantage to a certain race/build combo? and do you really think zos would generate content to deliberately encourage people to change their race? Would that really be a more effective way to improve their game and make a bit of extra revenue? More than just making new content/costumes/mounts/novelty items? I suppose you're entitled to your opinion but I really don't see this becoming a major issue. I can imagine a small percentage of players changing their race frequently and most other players, maybe 1-2 times to make up for bad choices.

People shout for unpaid changes every time anything in the game is changed by a fraction of a percent anyways, they will simply continue to do what they've always done. For the record, I don't completely disagree with them, if I invest time/money/gold on something with certain expectations and the developers go and change it on me, I'll likely feel a bit cheated and possibly want to be compensated. I'm not the type to cause much drama over it but I can see peoples point, who are upset.

I think every race should be different and their abilities should have an impact on the type of role they're designed to play. I think some races are currently less lucrative than others and could use some tweaking to be up to par with the other racial abilities but that is not really relevant to this topic.

I guess it boils down to the fact that I can't imagine most players using this mechanic in an abusive way and I presume you can. I just see more good coming from this than bad.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO · March 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

grimsfield wrote: »

I'll pay you $25 bucks for this ZOS. And that's it. The same price WoW charges for this service.

But WOW charges a subscription... so surely ZOS should charge more. Say... $30?

GW2 charges $10 and $5 extra for a name change with it

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO · March 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

FotM, why is this anyone's concern? Who care if some players change their race once a month how will it affect you? If you don't want to use it, don't; I won't. Is someone changing their race according to the newest trend going to be detrimental to their success?

For the same reason that has been given several times before. Sometimes even by me...

...because of grouping. As the selection of a character race is, at the moment, immutable there has to be a certain level of pragmatism with regards to putting together a group (especially in PUGs) and what the races/roles for the characters in that group need to be. As such the approach to grouping has to have a degree of inclusivity built into it.

As soon as race change becomes an option this required pragmatism disappears. Why? Because a group leader can expect people to have already changed their race to fit their class/role. A group leader can (and will) be exclusive because, of course, anyone saying "well this is the race I like" will get hit with the "you're just butthurt because people are criticising your build" or "I don't have time for you to waste by being sub-optimal". We have already seen responses such as this on the forums, why would they suddenly disappear from the game?

I've never not been invited to a raid in WoW/ FFXIV because my race choice wasnt the most optimized choice lol....

Spangla · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

if no race change then race balance is a must - khajit racials vs imperial for instance is a joke - comon zeni it is time you addressed this

Then why not make it for in-game gold? Otherwise it is simply P2W.

Read my earlier post - I said it should be free

samiz1 · March 2015

Since 2 weeks i'm looking for an answer from a ZOS responsible about the race change but no answer.
IS THERE A ZOS STUFF TO TELL AS IF YOU PLAN TO ADD A RACE CHANGE ?

AngryNord · March 2015

I Guess they got tired of the 2-3 threads pr month about this

Jaxsun · March 2015

ZOS, just remove the racial passives altogether. Or make them all the same and call them "Growing Pains" or something that's not lame. Problem solved. I don't care if its lore breaking. This is not real life, you are not your toon. You didn't actually fight Molag Bol...

Iluvrien · March 2015

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

I've never not been invited to a raid in WoW/ FFXIV because my race choice wasnt the most optimized choice lol....

Oh, I don't know. I would probably have dumped you for the "lol" you append to every sentence alone.

...as a more on-topic response... how does that fact that you weren't dropped in two entirely different games affect your inclusion in this one?

Zarbryn · March 2015

Im not against race change in some circumstances (I really dont care what other people do with their money), but on a side note I am a dark elf nightblade. I just play the way I want to (which is pretty much how they promoted the game - so why racial passives in the first place?).

Also, when the game was first launched there was no ability to zoom in as well as other character creation bugs (mine was stuck on low graphics). My first ever character has really odd body proportions, which I didnt realise at first. The hips are to narrow for the torso and it really bugs me. Unfortunately, in the excitement of first playing the game, I used my rings of mara. As soon as I got the graphics sorted I noticed. I would consider an appearance change just to correct this. Depending on the price etc. I never play this character, but I dont delete her either! I got the physical collectors edition and it just seems like a waste.

As I dont see how it affects my gameplay, I dont see why someone else shouldnt be able to get a race change? If it is expensive more money goes towards dev and less people will use it.

Ley · March 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

I've never not been invited to a raid in WoW/ FFXIV because my race choice wasnt the most optimized choice lol....

Oh, I don't know. I would probably have dumped you for the "lol" you append to every sentence alone.

...as a more on-topic response... how does that fact that you weren't dropped in two entirely different games affect your inclusion in this one?

Better question is, how do you fail to acknowledge the relation between trends in mmos?

Doesn't the fact that this is all speculatory mean the best we can do is make an educated guess on the outcome, based on similar past experiences?

ThatRedguardGuy · March 2015

I would easily pay $100 for a race change at this point.

Iluvrien · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

Better question is, how do you fail to acknowledge the relation between trends in mmos?

Doesn't the fact that this is all speculatory mean the best we can do is make an educated guess on the outcome, based on similar past experiences?

Yes, it does. And my experience of making Race Change available means that it increases FOTM and group-role-race exclusivity.... so?

Ley · March 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Better question is, how do you fail to acknowledge the relation between trends in mmos?

Doesn't the fact that this is all speculatory mean the best we can do is make an educated guess on the outcome, based on similar past experiences?

Yes, it does. And my experience of making Race Change available means that it increases FOTM and group-role-race exclusivity.... so?

So his experience is invalidated by your own?

Aeladiir · March 2015

akray21 wrote: »

I will pay a good amount to change my race in ESO.

Arguments against race change:

1. "It would be lore breaking" - Who cares, don't do it yourself. You will never know that I changed my race because you don't play with me. It will only affect you if someone you play with changes race, and most of the time people that care that much about lore play with like minded people so no harm...
2. "...but you can just re-roll a new character". - Not wasting my 400 hours that I have put into this game to get another character of the same class to max level. My time is worth way more than my money.
3. "People would just change race every time ZOS makes an update for the FotM build" - Not if they charge $30+...
4. "Racial passives are not that important" - End game content would disagree. My wood elf NB healer gets no bonus from his racials. Why does he have to suffer because I thought I would be a DPS, but my group decided that they didn't want to have a healer so I had to step in?

ZOS... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I hate people like you.

Erock25 · March 2015

domenthechief wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I will pay a good amount to change my race in ESO.

Arguments against race change:

1. "It would be lore breaking" - Who cares, don't do it yourself. You will never know that I changed my race because you don't play with me. It will only affect you if someone you play with changes race, and most of the time people that care that much about lore play with like minded people so no harm...
2. "...but you can just re-roll a new character". - Not wasting my 400 hours that I have put into this game to get another character of the same class to max level. My time is worth way more than my money.
3. "People would just change race every time ZOS makes an update for the FotM build" - Not if they charge $30+...
4. "Racial passives are not that important" - End game content would disagree. My wood elf NB healer gets no bonus from his racials. Why does he have to suffer because I thought I would be a DPS, but my group decided that they didn't want to have a healer so I had to step in?

ZOS... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I hate people like you.

I always find it amusing that people who care about lore (stereotypically the king nerds amongst the nerdy video game players) are those that are filled with such hate and a basic lack of understanding of other peoples' feelings.

Iluvrien · March 2015

Ley wrote: »

So his experience is invalidated by your own?

No, but on the other hand it means that mine isn't invalidated by his. See how this works?

Ley · March 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

So his experience is invalidated by your own?

No, but on the other hand it means that mine isn't invalidated by his. See how this works?

Must be some sort of misunderstanding here. I wasn't suggesting that your opinion wasn't valid, only pointing out that in my opinion you shouldn't be so submissive of his.

As for my opinion, I don't personally want to play with they type of people who discriminate based on FotM trends and have never seen them as a majority of players. There's not really any reason for that type of player not to be discriminatory within the current system. Meaning if you picked the wrong race in their opinion, regardless of the availability of race change, they can still choose not to include you in their group. Doesn't seem like adding the option to change your race will affect this much.

Junkogen · March 2015

ThatRedguardGuy wrote: »

I would easily pay $100 for a race change at this point.

Is it because you picked something other than Redguard and felt like something just didn't feel right?

Obscure · March 2015

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

It's a replay driver that I don't think ZOS will want to remove from the game.

It's a matter of "if we charge $30 to change the race on any character to include a Max level character, how much revenue does that gain us in the short term and how does it effect revenue on the long term?"

Short term they'd see a revenue spike, but long term they'd see less replay, higher player attrition, and perhaps even enough to offset the short term revenue spike resulting in a 0 net gain. Who is likely to keep flowing capital into the business? Someone who is Maxed out and just changes his race for a flat fee, or someone who rerolls a new race and replays to get a Max character again? Tough question to field, but I have no doubts it's the kind of conversation these ZOS employees sit down in long meetings to discuss.

Leave it in the hands of the pros. I wouldn't tell a surgeon how to do his job, and I wouldn't expect him to tell me how to do my job, and I apply the same reasoning to any career professional that has done what they do for years and become proficient enough in the practice to get paid to do it.

most of WoW shop sales are from services not mounts/pets
which is funny because they even sale near level cap toons.

...and you have the earnings reports to support that claim? Perhaps a statement from Blizzard stating this is the case?

akray21 wrote: »

Obscure wrote: »

It's a replay driver that I don't think ZOS will want to remove from the game.

It's a matter of "if we charge $30 to change the race on any character to include a Max level character, how much revenue does that gain us in the short term and how does it effect revenue on the long term?"

Short term they'd see a revenue spike, but long term they'd see less replay, higher player attrition, and perhaps even enough to offset the short term revenue spike resulting in a 0 net gain. Who is likely to keep flowing capital into the business? Someone who is Maxed out and just changes his race for a flat fee, or someone who rerolls a new race and replays to get a Max character again? Tough question to field, but I have no doubts it's the kind of conversation these ZOS employees sit down in long meetings to discuss.

Leave it in the hands of the pros. I wouldn't tell a surgeon how to do his job, and I wouldn't expect him to tell me how to do my job, and I apply the same reasoning to any career professional that has done what they do for years and become proficient enough in the practice to get paid to do it.

I am playing the game less because I can't be the race I want to be. I'm not about to grind 250+ hours to get VR14 for the 10% more magicka. I would rather "grind" and hour an hour and a half at work and pay for it. Work is a grind 5 days per week, I don't want to add hundreds of hours to my normal weekly grind.

Subjective. I work in excess of 60 hours a week, and I refuse to grind in any game, ESO included. If it's not fun, I literally don't have time for that bull***. Market is flooded with awesome games and I'll be damned if I'm going to burn my free time doing anything less than having fun gaming. This is subjective. Many would fundamentally disagree with me, but they're likely to busy grinding right now to comment.

you can look up the numbers but it's pretty obvious.

back in thunderlord a lot of top guilds race changed to troll.

for WoD a lot of PvP players faction changed to alliance ( no horde player on top 5 pages)

They make tons of money off it and it's expensive

I have looked up the numbers, and it's not itemised in their earnings reports. It's certainly anything but obvious.

What is obvious is the ocean of failed games that attempted to clone WoW's model. Many try, and they ALL fail. WoW is a freak of nature, a one of a kind, lightening in a bottle, flash in the pan game. To copy WoW should be a red flag for any studio that isn't Activision/Blizzard.

what do you mean fail?? how many MMO's have shut down there servers in the post

Thymos wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

also all of complaining saying classes will be next are just proving my point how y'all literally know nothing about MMO's

Lots of MMO offer race/sex changes.

literally none of them offer class changes.

Since you are offering it as a point, could you name "lots" of these MMOs. Hopefully they are quality MMOs, and that their races aren't just purely cosmetic.

GW2
WoW
Terra
Swtor
Neverwinter
Rift
FFXIV

the list goes on its a pretty staple feature to the genre like name changes.

Also 3 of those games are in the top 3 MMO list atm (WoW FFXIV abdand GW2) just saying for the guy that thinks copying WoW leads to "failure".
It's not copying WoW it's adding a basic feature that is pretty much staple to the MMO market currently.

The WoW model fails when cloned. The games that clone then do not fail, they change the model expressly so that they do not do so like any rational business would. The only MMOs to literally fail in recent memory were the original FF14 and APB. Both now revamped and rebooted after being literally shut down. Those are different cases however and have little of anything to do with attempting to clone WoW's model.

Point is they shouldn't implement any business strategy because it was good for other games. Keep in mind the strong DAoC vibes ESO has and note DAoC doesn't have any race change options. It's ZOS's prerogative to decide was is our is not healthy for their model. Nothing good comes from cloning WoW's other than the realisation that doing so was a bad idea leading a studio to change the model.

Zarbryn · March 2015

Thats a good point. Race change might increase the feeling that people need to play a certain race for a certain role. In this case I would rather they didnt allow it.

I am just very aware of the amount of time people put into their character development. It not just levelling, its achievements and roleplaying as well.

Aeladiir · March 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

domenthechief wrote: »

akray21 wrote: »

I will pay a good amount to change my race in ESO.

Arguments against race change:

1. "It would be lore breaking" - Who cares, don't do it yourself. You will never know that I changed my race because you don't play with me. It will only affect you if someone you play with changes race, and most of the time people that care that much about lore play with like minded people so no harm...
2. "...but you can just re-roll a new character". - Not wasting my 400 hours that I have put into this game to get another character of the same class to max level. My time is worth way more than my money.
3. "People would just change race every time ZOS makes an update for the FotM build" - Not if they charge $30+...
4. "Racial passives are not that important" - End game content would disagree. My wood elf NB healer gets no bonus from his racials. Why does he have to suffer because I thought I would be a DPS, but my group decided that they didn't want to have a healer so I had to step in?

ZOS... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I hate people like you.

I always find it amusing that people who care about lore (stereotypically the king nerds amongst the nerdy video game players) are those that are filled with such hate and a basic lack of understanding of other peoples' feelings.

basic lack of understanding of other peoples' feelings

with such hate

You make no sense whatsoever.

Tonturri · March 2015

I have a khajiit nightblade I want to change into a Bosmer for RP reasons. Geez >.> There are people out there who don't care about that 'p2w' bit. Heck I wouldn't mind just looking like a bosmer and having that extra crit.

On another note, I offered to heal a veteran pledge the other day on my Bosmer DK. The party lead grumbled and noted that they 'needed' a Templar. I then proceeded to heal the dungeon perfectly fine.

If you look in Greenshade, there's a quest where a Dunmer (I think) drinks a potion and changes into an Argonian.

If I changed my sorcerer kitty to an Altmer, she would gain
Somewhere around 200 damage on force pulse hits.
2400 magicka
120 magicka regen.

That's actually somewhat significant. Anyway, an option would be to actually balance out racial passives, and -then- offer race changes. Or at least, balance the racials as much as possible.

Aeratus · March 2015

AngryNord wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

if no race change then race balance is a must - khajit racials vs imperial for instance is a joke - comon zeni it is time you addressed this

Why should they address something that is so ingrown in TES lore? This game has destroyed TES lore way too much as is.

Because this game is an MMO. And an MMO must be designed such that either the racials are balanced (which they are not), or if they are not balanced, give players a chance to change race so that they are not at a competitive disadvantage.

Game balance was a joke in single player TES games, and this included racials. For example, in Oblivion, if you were a breton, you could equip a single ring and become completely immune to all magicka damage/effects.

Furthermore, rebalancing of racials does not break lore, because they still recognize difference in races even if nonimal. I would be fine if, for example, Altmer had only a 1-2% advantage in magicka functions. This would be an acceptable amount that would be consistent with lore. But at the moment, Altmer has a 5-10% advantage, and this is unacceptable if ESO is to become a serious, well-balanced competitive game.

As I've suggested above, race change and race balance are two separate things, but they are interconnected. I think it is too much to ask for a rebalance of racials, because ZOS has not shown any competence in this area. That is, I don't believe we can cure the disease (i.e., racial balance), so the only thing we can hope is to treat the symptoms (race change).

pecheckler · March 2015

I'd pay to change race as well. No point in being an imperial templar healer.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO · March 2015

Iluvrien wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

I've never not been invited to a raid in WoW/ FFXIV because my race choice wasnt the most optimized choice lol....

Oh, I don't know. I would probably have dumped you for the "lol" you append to every sentence alone.

...as a more on-topic response... how does that fact that you weren't dropped in two entirely different games affect your inclusion in this one?

yeah your comment doesn't change the fact that I've never seen anyone ask for a specific race for raids in those games even with a race change option which is your apparent worry.

Also yoy are trying to say we should compare it to Daoc but we already don't have their payment model and don't have faction exclusive classes so we are already past "being a copy of Daoc".

pugyourself · March 2015

Aeratus wrote: »

AngryNord wrote: »

Spangla wrote: »

if no race change then race balance is a must - khajit racials vs imperial for instance is a joke - comon zeni it is time you addressed this

Why should they address something that is so ingrown in TES lore? This game has destroyed TES lore way too much as is.

Because this game is an MMO. And an MMO must be designed such that either the racials are balanced (which they are not), or if they are not balanced, give players a chance to change race so that they are not at a competitive disadvantage.

Game balance was a joke in single player TES games, and this included racials. For example, in Oblivion, if you were a breton, you could equip a single ring and become completely immune to all magicka damage/effects.

Furthermore, rebalancing of racials does not break lore, because they still recognize difference in races even if nonimal. I would be fine if, for example, Altmer had only a 1-2% advantage in magicka functions. This would be an acceptable amount that would be consistent with lore. But at the moment, Altmer has a 5-10% advantage, and this is unacceptable if ESO is to become a serious, well-balanced competitive game.

As I've suggested above, race change and race balance are two separate things, but they are interconnected. I think it is too much to ask for a rebalance of racials, because ZOS has not shown any competence in this area. That is, I don't believe we can cure the disease (i.e., racial balance), so the only thing we can hope is to treat the symptoms (race change).

Class imbalance is far more problematic than racial imbalance. I'm guessing there are a lot of DKs and Templars on here asking for race changes to give them even more of an advantage over the other classes. Take your flappy wings and fly on outta here.