P2W Question...

DODHitman

I have seen a lot of posts in regards to this today, and the past week for that matter (regarding exp pots). I personally can see the pluses and negatives to both sides. Now I have posted this in another thread but was completely by passed with an answer, so I am making my own thread to see what "the players" thoughts are.
If "exp pots" are P2W, then whats your thoughts on people like me and others, that still plan to pay the "sub" and get the extra "exp" bonus in comparison to those who dont? Is that not the same thing?? Am I/they now categorized as a pay to win? I havent seen this mentioned yet in any threads and I am curious. If so sorry and pls direct me in the right direction.

MongooseOne

Honestly you can't argue with the P2W screaming horde, if they claim a game is p2w no amount of reason is going to change their mind.

It completely baffles me....and their standard for claiming p2w differs for each game. GW2 is almost always brought up as a good nonp2w cashshop, yet i can dump some cash and have a max level character in full exotics in 6 hours tops.

My conclusion is the p2w crowd has no idea what they are talking about so i simply ignore them. Sadly their screams simetimes scare of potential new players which i do find bothersome.

vkayne_ESO

To many people worry about what others have instead of worrying about themselves. Age old story of the haves and have nots.

Philelectric

People have no idea of what pay to win is. XP bonus (no matter how big it is) it will NEVER be a pay to win thing. XP bonus is a pay for convenience and tbh, it is not an opinion, its a fact.

XP bonus doesnt give you anything an other player cant get and doesnt make you stronger than the other players.
XP bonus will simply help to get an other max lvl character or helpa new player get a first max lvl character.

People complain because they dont want to pay a sub or anything else and get the same cookies a sub will get.



If XP bonus is P2W then simply being more than two level above some1 else should be considered an exploit.

Kuettbullen

Exp pots are NOT pay to win! If you want to know the defenition of pay to win look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG06WAxoR9k

I can see why some think they are P2W (or atleast unfair to a degree) because of the Champion system but that still doesnt make it P2W. Though that argument is invalid if it doesnt affect Champion exp. For things to actually be P2W the items you get from paying would be equal or better than the items gained through blood, sweat and tears.

Everything might be for naught because of what this dev said.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys. Matt Firor had previously mentioned in last month's Road Ahead that we would likely be adding experience boost potions to the Crown Store at some point. These types of potions follow our philosophy of only including items for convenience (and customization) in that you will spend less time to gain experience. That said, please remember that this information was datamined (that's ok!) and isn't yet available in-game, so it's not necessarily indicative of the final item that you'll see.

That statement claims that even if it gets implemented in the first place it might not be the same as the item that has been datamined.

DODHitman

I just dont get why they scream about the pots but havent said anything about the "month" long experience gain you get from staying subbed......isnt it the same *** thing. I get "more" exp if I "pay" the sub and if you dont, you dont get that exp. I honestly dont care either way, just surprised they arent saying anything about that.

Grao

DODHitman wrote: »

I have seen a lot of posts in regards to this today, and the past week for that matter (regarding exp pots). I personally can see the pluses and negatives to both sides. Now I have posted this in another thread but was completely by passed with an answer, so I am making my own thread to see what "the players" thoughts are.
If "exp pots" are P2W, then whats your thoughts on people like me and others, that still plan to pay the "sub" and get the extra "exp" bonus in comparison to those who dont? Is that not the same thing?? Am I/they now categorized as a pay to win? I havent seen this mentioned yet in any threads and I am curious. If so sorry and pls direct me in the right direction.

The potion is pay to win as it offers you a considerable advantage. 50% extra exp is a lot in a game with less and less exp sources - it is clear the current nerfs to exp gain are all very well aimed at forcing players to not only subscribe, but also buy the P2W potions.

I don't think having a subscription should allow you to gain exp faster. It should affect Gold, AP gains, leveling of abilities and maybe exp gain up to lvl 50 (or Vr14). It should not ever affect CP gain. And just to say, I do have a subscription and may actually keep it for a while.

The potion is far worse than the subscription though as it is 5 times more effective and it is short lived, meaning you have to pay, and pay, and pay and keep paying if you have any interesting in remaining competitive.

P3ZZL3

Fundamentally it's the amount. 10% is acceptable as non p2w. 50% is not.

That's pretty much their whole argument. It's not adding it. It's the amount it gives.

I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever - this is just what I've gleamed from the other 143 posts about it

Grao

Kuettbullen wrote: »

Exp pots are NOT pay to win! If you want to know the defenition of pay to win look at this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG06WAxoR9k

I can see why some think they are P2W (or atleast unfair to a degree) because of the Champion system but that still doesnt make it P2W. Though that argument is invalid if it doesnt affect Champion exp. For things to actually be P2W the items you get from paying would be equal or better than the items gained through blood, sweat and tears.

Everything might be for naught because of what this dev said.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys. Matt Firor had previously mentioned in last month's Road Ahead that we would likely be adding experience boost potions to the Crown Store at some point. These types of potions follow our philosophy of only including items for convenience (and customization) in that you will spend less time to gain experience. That said, please remember that this information was datamined (that's ok!) and isn't yet available in-game, so it's not necessarily indicative of the final item that you'll see.

That statement claims that even if it gets implemented in the first place it might not be the same as the item that has been datamined.

Zenimax statements are like balloons, full of hot air. The potion was data mined like that because it is what they plan to release, just like Nightmare horse was data mined, just like the recolors for the senche tiger were data mined. Maybe now that the potion "leaked" and the forum reactions weren't exactly positive, they may change how much exp the potion gives, but I doubt. They nerfed exp gain all over the place by over 50% exactly to force people into buying this potions.

Granz

EXP pots are not P2W in my opinion. Armor, stat boots, special items is P2W imo. So I can level quickly with a EXP pot and not sink my life into this. That's my choice and means I will get up to speed and play the end game. Which everyone should want because I play this for PvP and you want me out there because I suck and I am a easy kill.

They put pots in the game I will buy them immediately. A) I give money to the cause. Which is good for development. and I get to get out and PvP quicker.

The end... I love the idea. Do it up!

DODHitman

I can definitely see where this "could" get out of hand per the video I saw in another thread with Arch Age. As I stated above I can see both sides.....I just hope if they do decide to go this route they at least drop it to the same as subscription based percentage.....50% is pretty *** high.

DDuke

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Fundamentally it's the amount. 10% is acceptable as non p2w. 50% is not.

That's pretty much their whole argument. It's not adding it. It's the amount it gives.

I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever - this is just what I've gleamed from the other 143 posts about it

No, that is not the whole argument.

10% from subscribing is also P2W, and should not exist imo (atleast for CP). I did argue against it, if you look at my post history (you'll have to go way back though).

However, the reason people accept this easier, is that you gain it by subscribing (doing what we did before).

There is also some sweet irony in reducing "I want to play for freeee" crowd eventually into second grade citizens by subscribing. However, I do possess the capacity to see how this is wrong from ethical perspective.

So I say no to +10% subscriber XP as well.

DODHitman

@DDuke ,

Im glad you replied here cause you and a couple others are the reason I "saw the light" so to speak on the other end of the stick. Wich is why I see both sides.....Which is also why I asked this question, with people as strong minded on the subject as you and others, why wasnt this (sub exp) ever mentioned. From what I have seen in recent posts anyhow, its all been about the pots exp.

edit:
This is my first true MMO (wont include D3 as one lol) and trying to understand the big picture here.

Inactive Account

Most of the people that are "complaining", as some call it, are the loyal fans/subscribers that have been with E.S.O. from the start.

The biggest trigger of this discussion was the sudden 90 degree turn in the format of the game.( which, some argue was coming from the start)

A large number of people signed up for E.S.O. for the simple Fact that it was a Subscription base game. (Yes, because it is also based in E.S. Lore).

The switch to B2P, was not favored by many, but was accepted.

The Pay-To-Win question is Grey. The concept of it cannot be nailed down, or even brought into focus for a majority of people. The definition of P2W is as varied as the people who have who discuss this topic; ie; Soft P2W, Hard P2W, Hidden P2W.

As many others have stated here and in other threads. If E.S.O. had been marketed / released as it is now, there would be no discussion here, but this is/was a major change and people are very unsure of what it is going to do to this game.
Now with the Re branding of E.S.O. into Tamriel Unlimited much has been altered.


There are, as we all know, many examples out there ,of the quick slide to crap that a P2W game model can take.

With this being said we all get attached to games like this after we have put countless hours into the game ( unless, of course, you type " /played" in the chat; then you see the time played) .
This is an enjoyable thing we use to have fun, but we have to remember that it is at the same time, a business. And like all businesses we frequent we have to use our most mighty weapon we have.
We can continue to pay that business money, be it a sub fee, or be it in the form of buying Crowns. If YOU feel that you not getting value for your dollar, stop paying. That message will be louder than anything that anyone of us can type here.

Rottley

People should learn the concept of pay to win and stop crying for everything.

Inactive Account

Rottley wrote: »

People should learn the concept of pay to win and stop crying for everything.

Pretty sure they know what it is, that's why this discussion is happening. They want to avoid it, from the start.

DODHitman

nobertpaulb16_ESO wrote: »

Rottley wrote: »

People should learn the concept of pay to win and stop crying for everything.

Pretty sure they know what it is, that's why this discussion is happening. They want to avoid it, from the start.

Exactly, by no means do I think this is really gonna be that bad.....but it could turn into a real mess if it evolves into other areas of the game. As well as I said earlier....50% is pretty crazy....

Zershar_Vemod

DODHitman wrote: »

I have seen a lot of posts in regards to this today, and the past week for that matter (regarding exp pots). I personally can see the pluses and negatives to both sides. Now I have posted this in another thread but was completely by passed with an answer, so I am making my own thread to see what "the players" thoughts are.
If "exp pots" are P2W, then whats your thoughts on people like me and others, that still plan to pay the "sub" and get the extra "exp" bonus in comparison to those who dont? Is that not the same thing?? Am I/they now categorized as a pay to win? I havent seen this mentioned yet in any threads and I am curious. If so sorry and pls direct me in the right direction.

As someone who is currently paying a sub, I would be 100% ok with them removing the 10%xp bonus if they never add XP potions, etc. to the Crown Store.

Danikat

MongooseOne wrote: »

Honestly you can't argue with the P2W screaming horde, if they claim a game is p2w no amount of reason is going to change their mind.

It completely baffles me....and their standard for claiming p2w differs for each game. GW2 is almost always brought up as a good nonp2w cashshop, yet i can dump some cash and have a max level character in full exotics in 6 hours tops.

My conclusion is the p2w crowd has no idea what they are talking about so i simply ignore them. Sadly their screams simetimes scare of potential new players which i do find bothersome.

IMO GW2 is a good example of why the P2W argument isn't straight forward and items and bonuses aren't directly comparable across games. That game does have +50% XP boosters, and also a real money - gold conversion system (via gems, the equivalent of crowns) so on the surface it's definitely pay to win.

In practice it's more complicated. Boosters honestly are not worth buying, they only affect XP from kills which is pretty low to begin with so if you want to level quickly you're better off going to World vs. World, especially the Edge of the Mists map which most people use for XP and karma grinding. And exotics are so cheap that almost everyone can get them one way or another as soon as they get to level 80. I didn't have much gold when I got my first max-level character but I had enough karma points to get 2 sets from the Temples in Orr, and since all exotics are equally good it doesn't matter where they come from.

But also the entire game is designed so that stats, especially stats from equipment will never be the deciding factor in a fight. Even with a max level character in all top-tier gear with the best upgrades you're not going to be able to stomp everything and everyone. Partially because everyone else can get the same fairly easily, partially because what skills you choose and how you use them are much more important. I've played with people who did exactly what you described - bought gold and used it to craft to level 80, then bought exotics and headed straight out to dungeons having never before left the starting cities. They're easily the worst players in the game because they don't know even the most basic things like the fact that they can dodge, or swap weapons in a fight, or that they need to move out of AoE. They just stand in front of a mob and mash skills, expecting their "pay 2 win" gear to carry them and as a result they die constantly in even the easiest fights. In World vs. World they're laughable, even I can kill them and I'm a terrible PvPer.

Of course I'd prefer it if the game didn't have gems to gold and XP boosters, but I really don't think they make it a pay-to-win game. In spite of the fact that in other games they really would be.

In other games where levelling does take an extremely long time and the stats you get from your level and equipment are the primary factor in determining whether you'll win or lose (aka most RPGs) those same benefits would definitely be pay-to-win.

I'm on the fence about ESO. If XP boosters simply let you get to level 50 then I don't think it would be too much of a problem (especially because people who power-levelled their first character would have the same disadvantage in lacking the knowledge that comes from actually playing). I haven't gotten to try the champion system for myself but it seems like that's where XP boosters could be an issue.

WraithAzraiel

DDuke wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Fundamentally it's the amount. 10% is acceptable as non p2w. 50% is not.

That's pretty much their whole argument. It's not adding it. It's the amount it gives.

I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever - this is just what I've gleamed from the other 143 posts about it

No, that is not the whole argument.

10% from subscribing is also P2W, and should not exist imo (atleast for CP). I did argue against it, if you look at my post history (you'll have to go way back though).

However, the reason people accept this easier, is that you gain it by subscribing (doing what we did before).

There is also some sweet irony in reducing "I want to play for freeee" crowd eventually into second grade citizens by subscribing. However, I do possess the capacity to see how this is wrong from ethical perspective.

So I say no to +10% subscriber XP as well.

You played the game when it was Pay to Play and we didn't get a damned thing for our buck outside of what was promised.

Now that there's absolutely no need to pay to play, there's got to be some kind of enticement to continue to subscribe.

That's just business. That's making the product marketable. Who cares if someone get's CP faster than you? Their cap is the same number as your cap. NEWS FLASH: Regardless of the existence of bonuses to XP, somebody's bound to get there before everyone else.

All this speculation and fearmongering is completely unnecessary! Short of PvP, what's the real danger of a CP disparity?

The whole argument is like that of somebody crying because an individual is a higher level than them. It makes no sense.

This whole "Everything Must BE EQUAL TO THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR" trite is nonsensical and ridiculous.

Bottom line, is the product has to be worth the payment. Now the $15 per month premium option is justified. And the XP pot would allow for those who ARE NOT subscribers to get 2 hours of advantage with a 2 hour cooldown.

ZOS is a business, not a charity. They have to make money, or this thing we enjoy so much goes bye-bye.

DDuke

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Fundamentally it's the amount. 10% is acceptable as non p2w. 50% is not.

That's pretty much their whole argument. It's not adding it. It's the amount it gives.

I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever - this is just what I've gleamed from the other 143 posts about it

No, that is not the whole argument.

10% from subscribing is also P2W, and should not exist imo (atleast for CP). I did argue against it, if you look at my post history (you'll have to go way back though).

However, the reason people accept this easier, is that you gain it by subscribing (doing what we did before).

There is also some sweet irony in reducing "I want to play for freeee" crowd eventually into second grade citizens by subscribing. However, I do possess the capacity to see how this is wrong from ethical perspective.

So I say no to +10% subscriber XP as well.

That's just business. That's making the product marketable. Who cares if someone get's CP faster than you? Their cap is the same number as your cap. NEWS FLASH: Regardless of the existence of bonuses to XP, somebody's bound to get there before everyone else.

I wish people would stop saying this.

Is there really a cap, when it is over 9 years away for most people? Grinders might reach it in 5, I don't know. At the moment, the cap is so far away that we cannot really speak of a cap.

Are you willing to be of inferior power to everyone who pays $$$ and plays more than 50% of the amount you do?

Are you willing to see those who play a lot, get even more ahead by now also paying a lot?

Are you sure they won't simply add more Champion Points before anyone reaches the goal (over 5 years from now)?

Considering the whole system was made as an end game grind to sell XP Boosters, I doubt they'd be willing to throw away cash by not adding more CPs.

All things considered, we can speak of an MMO with no realistic level cap, giving XP boosters for $$$. Subscription gives the same thing, so it is also P2W.


I'm not saying everyone should be equal. I'm saying equality shouldn't be determined by money (P2W).


They can make money without turning the game into P2W. Look at LoL, DOTA etc which only sell cosmetics & real convenience items, not things that make you stronger than others.

In fact, I'm willing to bet they'll make less money over long-term (which is what you're interested in for this game, I hope), if the game stays free of P2W.
Majority of players are shown to be against P2W (+-4.8% margin of error): http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159484/do-you-want-p2w/p1

Muizer

DODHitman wrote: »

I have seen a lot of posts in regards to this today, and the past week for that matter (regarding exp pots). I personally can see the pluses and negatives to both sides. Now I have posted this in another thread but was completely by passed with an answer, so I am making my own thread to see what "the players" thoughts are.
If "exp pots" are P2W, then whats your thoughts on people like me and others, that still plan to pay the "sub" and get the extra "exp" bonus in comparison to those who dont? Is that not the same thing?? Am I/they now categorized as a pay to win? I havent seen this mentioned yet in any threads and I am curious. If so sorry and pls direct me in the right direction.

There have been plenty people who argued against the xp/gold etc.. bonuses of the subscription. You can find it in the discussions about the game going B2P. And it has been argued that even if 10% wasn't a big deal, it was going to open the door to much bigger boosts in the crown store.

Personally, I won't be renewing my sub because of this. I don't want to cheat and in my book buying xp boosters is cheating.

WraithAzraiel

DDuke wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

P3ZZL3 wrote: »

Fundamentally it's the amount. 10% is acceptable as non p2w. 50% is not.

That's pretty much their whole argument. It's not adding it. It's the amount it gives.

I have no opinion on this matter whatsoever - this is just what I've gleamed from the other 143 posts about it

No, that is not the whole argument.

10% from subscribing is also P2W, and should not exist imo (atleast for CP). I did argue against it, if you look at my post history (you'll have to go way back though).

However, the reason people accept this easier, is that you gain it by subscribing (doing what we did before).

There is also some sweet irony in reducing "I want to play for freeee" crowd eventually into second grade citizens by subscribing. However, I do possess the capacity to see how this is wrong from ethical perspective.

So I say no to +10% subscriber XP as well.

That's just business. That's making the product marketable. Who cares if someone get's CP faster than you? Their cap is the same number as your cap. NEWS FLASH: Regardless of the existence of bonuses to XP, somebody's bound to get there before everyone else.

I wish people would stop saying this.

Is there really a cap, when it is over 9 years away for most people? Grinders might reach it in 5, I don't know. At the moment, the cap is so far away that we cannot really speak of a cap.

Are you willing to be of inferior power to everyone who pays $$$ and plays more than 50% of the amount you do?

Are you willing to see those who play a lot, get even more ahead by now also paying a lot?

Are you sure they won't simply add more Champion Points before anyone reaches the goal (over 5 years from now)?

Considering the whole system was made as an end game grind to sell XP Boosters, I doubt they'd be willing to throw away cash by not adding more CPs.

All things considered, we can speak of an MMO with no realistic level cap, giving XP boosters for $$$. Subscription gives the same thing, so it is also P2W.


I'm not saying everyone should be equal. I'm saying equality shouldn't be determined by money (P2W).


They can make money without turning the game into P2W. Look at LoL, DOTA etc which only sell cosmetics & real convenience items, not things that make you stronger than others.

In fact, I'm willing to bet they'll make less money over long-term (which is what you're interested in for this game, I hope), if the game stays free of P2W.
Majority of players are shown to be against P2W (+-4.8% margin of error): http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159484/do-you-want-p2w/p1

If they got money to burn, by all means. This a game. I could care less if someone beats me at it. I'm sure I can find and group up with other people who are more on my level. To be afraid of this situation is to believe that the system is finite, that this is all the players that we're going to get, ever. That's never the case with MMO's.

What I will not stand for is this false definition of balance everyone throws around. This dystopian idea that everything must be equal to the lowest common denominator in order to be acceptable. That's not equality, that's communism which has failed in damn near every iteration of it's attempted implementation.

And you can toss around all the polls you want, everyone's definition of P2W differs from EVERYBODY else's. XP pots are fine.

ESO will not be P2W in my eyes until they start offering Best in Slot gear and stat boosts in the Crown Store. And sure you can argue that the XP pots are roundabout stat boosts, but that's grasping at straws.

If the pots are made available for Crowns or in-game gold. Excellent. They are available to everyone. That's equal opportunity.

LordSkyKnight

Ignoring the typical hyperbole.
Ignoring the typical straw man argument tactics.

Paying to win in my opinion is defined as:
When a person pays a real world currency to bypass the standardized design hurdles in a game.

You have varies degrees on how this is implemented into games. Sometimes it's minor things as say a small experience booster to something major such as purchasing end game gear. Some people are more willing to let the minor things slide. There are some games out there that are truly horrendous with their cash shop practices.

I came to this game hoping it would stay a sub and never go that route. I despise cash shops.

Yes, the experience boosters are paying to win. Some consider them rather minor and some like myself, see the potential problem with them. I don't care if you want to level faster. I care that the power gaming whales will use them to push the upper limit of the champion grind to gain advantages in end game competitive PvP and raiding. I also fear it's the beginning of that slippery slope and that they are testing us on how far they can push us with cash shop sales before chasing people off.

ZOS_AlanG

Since we have a large number of threads on this topic, we're locking this and consolidating the discussion into this thread. Please remember that we expect posts on the forums to be civil, constructive, and abide by the forum rules. As we recently reiterated, one of the goals here is to provide a safe, welcoming place for our players and developers to read and talk about the game. As part of this, we will not tolerate trolling, demands, abusive or insulting language toward our community members, developers, company, or ESO itself.

As for XP boosters, Gina comments on this subject earlier in the thread we're consolidating this discussion into:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys. Matt Firor had previously mentioned in last month's Road Ahead that we would likely be adding experience boost potions to the Crown Store at some point. These types of potions follow our philosophy of only including items for convenience (and customization) in that you will spend less time to gain experience. That said, please remember that this information was datamined (that's ok!) and isn't yet available in-game, so it's not necessarily indicative of the final item that you'll see.