@ZOS When are VR levels going away (step 1)? Just remove character VR levels and open up VR items

Seraphyel

Rykoth wrote: »

They've said VR leveling is being removed. That said, I don't understand *how*

What's the point of all the VR Ranked Armors if there's no VR?

I think the solution is for people to chill out, have patience. When Wrothgar, and Murkmire, and all the other zones come out, I think folks'll find there's more than a few paths to level up and not just Cadwell's crap.

That's what should have been here by now.

VR wouldn't be so awful if there would be more ways to reach VR14. Cadwells Silver & Gold are an utter distaster and one of the dumbest design decisions I've ever encountered.

As I pointed out, with an alternative route from VR1-VR14 through Murkmire, Wrothgar or IC it wouldn't be as bad as it is right now.

The real issue here is the braindead revamp of low leveling zones so that you have content for VR1-14 that shouldn't have been "endgame" content.

sylviermoone

I don't mind the VR levels, nor do I mind the increase in XP needed to gain said levels. What I mind is the content available for earning those levels.

I understand that Cadwell's Silver and Gold were put into place for folks that would rather not start from scratch, so to speak, in order to play through the content of the other factions.They wanted to be able to focus on taking one char through the entirety of the games content. I respect that there are people out there that would want to make that choice.

I, on the other hand, enjoy leaning different play styles. I like going through each factions content with a different char, and not being forced to go through the entirety of the games content with every character I have.

After playing since the beginning, I have 2 chars sitting at VR 1 and 2, as well as several lower level alts at various stages in the 1-50 game. My VR chars aren't competivite in Cyrodil, can't compete successfully in groups for trials, aren't leveled enough for Craglorn.....so that leaves just grinding out mobs for XP? Unless, of course, I embark upon Cadwell's Silver with them, and I'd honestly rather gouge my eyes out with an icepick than that.

It isn't the levels or large chunks of XP that are the problem. It is the complete lack of non- regurgitated content that is the roadblock for me to continue to level my VR chars. I would love to get to end game stages (though at my rate of play, that could take another year!) with my chars, but I would like some content that makes me excited to get there. For me, playing any Elder Scrolls game is about the journey, and the journey from VR 1 to VR 10+ is woefully laughable. Changing VR 1-14 to be called 51-64 isn't going to change that one bit.

Edit: spelling

eventide03b14a_ESO

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I don't get what you are expecting removing VR levels to bring to the game at this point?

You still have a lot of XP to earn to get CP. You still, presumably, will need to get the best type of weapons whether they are called VR14 or '50++'. You will still have to quest through the VR1-10 areas to get skills, items, achieves, skyshards and so on.

Also if after the recent changes they remove 13 skill points and equivalent stat points from everyone who has reached VR14 and similar removals from anyone VR1 or higher then they will probably face an armed uprising.

I've never really understood what the beef is with the VR levels themselves - I get that some don't like questing (although why you'd not expect questing in an online game based on the biggest questing RPG series is another question), I get that some have issue with immersion and offering other ways to level is always good - but levels are just levels... how does the game become better if you remove 14 levels?

The point of removing VR character specific levels is to allow the champion system to have value.
The VR system has no value but instead creates separation, pushes people to grind if they make an alt, prevents many from enjoying friends and parties due to a senseless VR level.

The game allows any VR1 to go to Craglorn but the min level is VR10. People don't mind leveling to do content but now having VR levels AND champion points is just odd.

It's not that people don't want to quest but people don't want to play the game in each faction per character just to get to Vr10. By design VR levels were there to give players something to achieve until Craglorn released. It came out months ago

Silver and gold quests are cool IF you haven't played the other factions as an alt. silver and gold quests should be optional and not required.

IF ZOS provided some form of questing that is available at VR1 but not requiring PvP that offsets silver and gold quests this would be good but VR levels still don't fit in. how silly is it to be forced to play through all factions per character over and over again just to hit a VR level so that you can play with others PvE or PvP and be a contributor when the champion system also exists.

How silly is it to gain account wide champion points if you still have to VR level after 50.
This isn't a single player game. It's not Diablo it's one massive server full of people to play with but we are limited.

Quest phasing, solo only quests phased, faction limatations but then at the last solo quest main story you then can go play through other factions.

This VR level issue is just one road block that needs to go away due to champion system being better and a more viable way to handle post 50 leveling

Part of the appeal for me to getting a character to 50 is that I finally have a sandbox experience. But like others have said there is a big difference between fighting VR1 NPCs and VR10 NPCs. It would be nice if we could literally go wherever we like at 50.

eventide03b14a_ESO

BBSooner wrote: »

I hope nobody is under the impression that when they remove VR level 50 will be the cap. That would require additional reworking of all the items and VR zones. Very likely the VR is just going to be made regular levels, and level cap will be 63 ... or even just rounded up to 65.

This is news to me. Where did you get this information?

Seraphyel

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I hope nobody is under the impression that when they remove VR level 50 will be the cap. That would require additional reworking of all the items and VR zones. Very likely the VR is just going to be made regular levels, and level cap will be 63 ... or even just rounded up to 65.

This is news to me. Where did you get this information?

I don't think it's an official statement but it's an assumption made by logic.

If you remove VR you have to remove everything connected to it - and there are MANY things connected to your Veteran Level.

Gorthax

sounds to me like people just want to do end game content, trials, and be on equal footing in pvp without putting in any leg work. Kids these days I swear

Seraphyel

Gorthax wrote: »

sounds to me like people just want to do end game content, trials, and be on equal footing in pvp without putting in any leg work. Kids these days I swear

Leg work was done from 1-50.

EQBallzz

They already said it wouldn't be before console release which means it won't be any time soon, if ever. It doesn't even make sense for them to remove them if they let it get released on consoles because then they would have to remove them immediately following all the console players getting into vet levels. Not to mention all the associated content/items associated with vet levels that would need to be completely reworked. it just doesn't make sense so I wouldn't count on it happening.

NewBlacksmurf

Gorthax wrote: »

sounds to me like people just want to do end game content, trials, and be on equal footing in pvp without putting in any leg work. Kids these days I swear

Not at all, people need to gear up, etc. but being forced to go through silver and gold quests soley due to Vet level limitations is silly. Champion levels + gear should be required but not Champion levels + gear + Vet levels with only two choices to gain efficient vet levels being silver and gold quests or grinding.

infraction2008b16_ESO

Rykoth wrote: »

They've said VR leveling is being removed. That said, I don't understand *how*

What's the point of all the VR Ranked Armors if there's no VR?

I think the solution is for people to chill out, have patience. When Wrothgar, and Murkmire, and all the other zones come out, I think folks'll find there's more than a few paths to level up and not just Cadwell's crap.

Armors get replaced, rehashed and removed in MMO's all the time. Tbh I'd like to see a new system of gear progression like for example the ability to learn set bonuses via research or if instead of highest tier mat = stronger item it would be good if endgame mats gave your item different characteristics and you could mix/match different mats in the same item to create say your own alloys for blacksmithing or your own cloth for clothing etc.

Possibilities are endless but some of those things aren't possible with the current VR in place due to it being a linear system.

Emma_Overload

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I don't get what you are expecting removing VR levels to bring to the game at this point?

If he's like me, he has lower VR level alts that he wants to be able to wear all the nice VR14 armor sets he bought for his main. I didn't level my VR alts for weeks because I thought VR levels were going to be removed... that turned out to be a mistake!

NewBlacksmurf

EQBallzz wrote: »

They already said it wouldn't be before console release which means it won't be any time soon, if ever. It doesn't even make sense for them to remove them if they let it get released on consoles because then they would have to remove them immediately following all the console players getting into vet levels. Not to mention all the associated content/items associated with vet levels that would need to be completely reworked. it just doesn't make sense so I wouldn't count on it happening.

I disagree....about it making sense and about having to rework items.

As mentioned in my other comments, there isn't anything to rework. The champion level can take the place of a VR level as such Champion levels 1 -8 or whatever would equal VR1 and so VR2gear and items would require a champion level of 10+ or so. Nothing complicated about that change.

Removing the VR character levels is just as simple as taking the VR indication off as now champion levels took in consideration the VR levels before implementation. Changing NPC VR levels to a numerica level is also simplistic.

Why release something onto another platform that as a developer you no longer want to be apart of the game?

eventide03b14a_ESO

Seraphyel wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I hope nobody is under the impression that when they remove VR level 50 will be the cap. That would require additional reworking of all the items and VR zones. Very likely the VR is just going to be made regular levels, and level cap will be 63 ... or even just rounded up to 65.

This is news to me. Where did you get this information?

I don't think it's an official statement but it's an assumption made by logic.

If you remove VR you have to remove everything connected to it - and there are MANY things connected to your Veteran Level.

They said nothing about level cap increase.

There was a post from @ZOS_MariaAliprando back in October:

ZOS_MariaAliprando wrote: »

Greetings! I am Maria Aliprando, Gameplay Designer on the Champion System.

What happens to the Veteran Ranks we currently have VR1-12?

We want to remove the Veteran Ranks from the game and rely on the more active progression provided by the Champion System. However, when we release the Champion System we will continue to maintain Veteran Ranks. We have several options as to how we will remove Veteran Ranks but all of them require time and careful planning. In the meantime, we are making Veteran Ranks earned by XP and reducing the overall time it takes to get a Veteran Rank. We are also rewarding an Attribute Point and a Skill Point each time you reach a Veteran Rank.

Does everyone that is a Veteran Rank get lowered back to lvl50? Or are the Ranks staying, but only being changed to lvl 51, 52, etc instead?

Similar to an answer before, we just don’t know yet.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/122386/general-confusion-about-veteran-rank-and-champion-system

Of course she also said they would track XP for CP and we know what happened with that.

NewBlacksmurf

^ I won't even quote the above after reading it....
Point blank, it needs to be phased out. I think there are enough comments and suggestions out there to start with removing them prior to June even if NPC VR levels stay as long as they use a simple champion level to VR level ratio based on today's exp rate.

Seraphyel

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

^ I won't even quote the above after reading it....
Point blank, it needs to be phased out. I think there are enough comments and suggestions out there to start with removing them prior to June even if NPC VR levels stay as long as they use a simple champion level to VR level ratio based on today's exp rate.

It won't happen. It's a sad truth, but it's still the truth.

I think they are just thinking about it after console launch. If the console version is successful, they may continue to remove VR, if it's not successful there is no need in spending time on removing VR anymore.

Krym

sylviermoone wrote: »

I understand that Cadwell's Silver and Gold were put into place for folks that would rather not start from scratch, so to speak, in order to play through the content of the other factions.They wanted to be able to focus on taking one char through the entirety of the games content. I respect that there are people out there that would want to make that choice.

yet at the same time zenimax gives you EIGHT character slots and different classes. I still remember the "no raids speech", but when they figured out that there is no endgame besides cyrodiil they panicked and tacked the other faction zones on at 50 for "longevity". it worked so great it burned people out before ever reaching the cap (and it's not like zenimax wanted people to sub longer or sth...).

the whole issue could've been avoided by releasing the champ system sooner, remove levels 50+ and let people to what they want for XP to level champ points. majority will want to do the other zones anyway for shards/achievements/etc. CHOICE is always best solution.

Gorthax wrote: »

sounds to me like people just want to do end game content, trials, and be on equal footing in pvp without putting in any leg work. Kids these days I swear

yeah, because having to grind at least 10 veteran ranks is the true sign of a dedicated hardcore player!

Anilahation

I'm VR6, I don't understand the complaint of VR ranks.

I got level 50 from 3 days played and did all the quest.

so to hit vr10 I'd have to do 9 days played.

ohh the horror.


also I'm sure if the level was called 63 people wouldn't freak out like they are.


I do agree with a post here though it would have been a lot more immersive and sandbox feel if after 50 you could go where you want ( you technically can since you can kill higher VR mobs a lot easier compared to release)

ShirleyShine

I don't really mind the veteran levels.
I've only got one character though, and have taken my time along the way to try out everything.
Now at vet 9, I've had fun seeing the other Pacts for the first time. [AD - currently in DF desert]

I've really enjoyed the journey, and can't say it's been boring for me.
It's been satisfying to see the zone maps go white along the way and even getting the fish done for each zone.

smokes

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm VR6, I don't understand the complaint of VR ranks.

I got level 50 from 3 days played and did all the quest.

so to hit vr10 I'd have to do 9 days played.

ohh the horror.


also I'm sure if the level was called 63 people wouldn't freak out like they are.


I do agree with a post here though it would have been a lot more immersive and sandbox feel if after 50 you could go where you want ( you technically can since you can kill higher VR mobs a lot easier compared to release)

did you do this at launch or just recently?

i did it at launch

everyone i played with hit VR1-3 and quit.
they all loved questing to 50, hated vr1-10.
then craglorn came out - which was tuned for VR10+, the options you had were:
grind out quests to VR10 and go to craglorn
grind mobs to VR10
grind pvp to VR10 whilst feeling incredibly underpowered against the VR14's who pretty much exploited their way there

then anomalie grinding became a thing - you could get a VR level in 20 mins killing them, as well as a bucket load of epic loot. there was massive crowds, they were nerfed 2-3 weeks later. they were still a grind and honestly i feel as though i cheated, but i just couldn't bare the quest grind (i made it to VR4 before i burned out, i absolutely hated questing by that point).

i'm glad the champion system is here and i really hope the B2P system pulls back in lots of launch players, but until the VR system goes, this game will struggle.

the endgame really needs a full overhaul and some solid sense of direction - it's likely a lot of work to do so, but the sooner it's done, the sooner the game can move onto greener pastures and put this whole shaky first year behind it.

i really want ESO to do well, it's a beautiful game and i love playing it, but cadwells silver and gold were a massive mistake and killed a lot of interest.

craglorn should've been VR1-4. not VR10-14, i've been saying so since launch

my heart goes out to the devs though, as i bet it's been an incredibly stressful year and not only do they want to fix the current system, but they want to be working on new content as well.

Shehriazad

I am only worried how they could make this without breaking the game...they have to rebalance the entire game, account for the missing stat and skillpoints AND SO ON.

But I think I got an idea:

Soul Reincarnation:

If you want to play the other 2 alliances...you will have to reincarnate your character back to level 1.


-Let's say you start as an Aldmeri Character, finish your story and reach lvl 50. You gain 4 Stat/Skillpoints extra and get the option to reincarnate.
-You reincarnate, play the character again...but on a different alliance, play the entire game again. You are being given a stat punishment until lvl 50 to make this content harder. Once you reach the end, this time you get +8Stat/Skill points and the option to reincarnate once more
-You reincarnate, play the character again...but on the last missing alliance. You are now a fully "soulbound" character with even bigger stat punishments to make the last alliance the ultimate challenge.(those punishments only apply in the 1-50 leveling zones, of course)
-You finish the game on the last alliance and gain 13 Extra Skill/Statpoints when hitting 50.
-Cadwell will now talk to you for your final choice. You now have to choose the reality that you choose to stay in, as you can only exist once. You pick your alliance and stay with it forever (unless you pay real money later for an alliance swap #buy2play)
-You are now a twice reincarnated character that has fought in multiple dimensions...and then decided in which alliance he/she actually wants to be the hero and fight this war.
-You proceed to craglorn.


Basically...with that system you aren't actually forced to ever reincarnate if you don't want to...at the cost of some statpoints. You basically get the option to go into a different dimension where you were on side X...and the final reward being that you become stronger every time you beat the story plus a free switch of alliance as the final reward.
But people who only want to have some casual fun...might be fine without those stat/skillpoints. They will just go to Craglorn or the new DLC zone...or just Cyrodiil 24/7.

I_killed_Vivec

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Not at all, people need to gear up, etc. but being forced to go through silver and gold quests soley due to Vet level limitations is silly. Champion levels + gear should be required but not Champion levels + gear + Vet levels with only two choices to gain efficient vet levels being silver and gold quests or grinding.

Then I must be missing something...

Champions level should be required

Vet levels should not.

But XP = VR = CP

You get VR as a simple by-product of gaining XP for CP... indeed the only efficient ways to gain CP are precisely those to gain VR. Play th egame and you will increase naturally in both.

I understand that people at level 50 want to be "competitive" going into PvP or Craglorn, but even in a non-VR world they are not going to be competitive compared to someone who has, say, 70 CP (i.e. today's VR14). Either the game is scaled - in which case there is no real progression - or some will have progressed further than others.

I understand that people want to "fast track" alts without having to go through the grind of getting VR14 - though now, of course, they will have the advantage of all the CP gained by their other characters. Though I'd prefer a player being able to construct alts up to their "maximum" character. Say you had a DC DK at VR6 with 200 skill points and 50 CP then you can automatically build an AD sorc with the same. I'd prefer to see that than have all alts contribute to an overall pool from which they can all take the same.

Niminion

I think the main issue people have with VR levels is the gear. It doesn't "feel" like endgame if you can't equip any piece of gear you get. Therefor people do not consider VR1-14 "endgame" and QQ about having to level to get to cap.

I think first they could consolidate the VR levels a bit when it comes to gear 1-5, 6-10, 11-14. Three gear tiers would be much preferable to 14.

smokes

Shehriazad wrote: »

Soul Reincarnation:

why re-incarnate if i can just roll an alt?

having the other factions to quest in as optional content for the additional skillpoints, story and exploration - awesome.
having it forced upon you to get to max level and enjoy endgame content - feels kinda rapey

Seraphyel

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm VR6, I don't understand the complaint of VR ranks.

I got level 50 from 3 days played and did all the quest.

so to hit vr10 I'd have to do 9 days played.

ohh the horror.


also I'm sure if the level was called 63 people wouldn't freak out like they are.


I do agree with a post here though it would have been a lot more immersive and sandbox feel if after 50 you could go where you want ( you technically can since you can kill higher VR mobs a lot easier compared to release)

It's about the horrible grind through the other factions, not the VR levels at all.

Krym

Seraphyel wrote: »

It's about the horrible grind through the other factions, not the VR levels at all.

you have to get to VR14 somehow, if people have an issue doing the other factions I assume plenty will have more of an issue running in circles grinding exp...

NewBlacksmurf

Krym wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

It's about the horrible grind through the other factions, not the VR levels at all.

you have to get to VR14 somehow, if people have an issue doing the other factions I assume plenty will have more of an issue running in circles grinding exp...

It's about not being forced to an extent to play other factions WHICH is a terrible idea when it's forced considering the crown store sales the option to play any race in any faction.

NewBlacksmurf

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Not at all, people need to gear up, etc. but being forced to go through silver and gold quests soley due to Vet level limitations is silly. Champion levels + gear should be required but not Champion levels + gear + Vet levels with only two choices to gain efficient vet levels being silver and gold quests or grinding.

Then I must be missing something...

Champions level should be required

Vet levels should not.

But XP = VR = CP

You get VR as a simple by-product of gaining XP for CP... indeed the only efficient ways to gain CP are precisely those to gain VR. Play th egame and you will increase naturally in both.

I understand that people at level 50 want to be "competitive" going into PvP or Craglorn, but even in a non-VR world they are not going to be competitive compared to someone who has, say, 70 CP (i.e. today's VR14). Either the game is scaled - in which case there is no real progression - or some will have progressed further than others.

I understand that people want to "fast track" alts without having to go through the grind of getting VR14 - though now, of course, they will have the advantage of all the CP gained by their other characters. Though I'd prefer a player being able to construct alts up to their "maximum" character. Say you had a DC DK at VR6 with 200 skill points and 50 CP then you can automatically build an AD sorc with the same. I'd prefer to see that than have all alts contribute to an overall pool from which they can all take the same.

You're confused or maybe my words are not typed well.

My apologies, I'll take the blame.


VR does not equal exp gains for CP.
Level 50= exp gains for champion levels

VR levels = content and gear restrictions for no apparent reason now that champion levels exist.
Champion levels can easily replace the VR level limitations with no other changes. That literally will take then one minor update.

Now the other part is my argument to not be forced to do silver and gold quests. Also...it's not that people want to be fast tracked but at 50 they don't want to have to repeat the content they just finished. (Diff factions but it's the same).

If a player gains champion levels for post 50 experience those levels apply to the account. VR levels are only character specific so it's just odd that one was introduced to replace the other but now it doesn't replace VR levels.

For the PvP crowd, they are forced to go through VR levels too which is odd because they may not want to do any PvE. Of course a certain amount is beneficial but maybe they just PvP so technically VR levels are a burden just as it is for PvE players.


Conclusion:
Champion levels will allow a new 50 to catch up to an experienced VR14 if the account has a VR14 or multiple VR characters. Due to champion levels, it no longer makes sense to use a character level to lock out a character where the character is on an experienced account.

If someone wants to refill on another faction they should be able to do so. They should be able to use non-bound items based on champion level requirements and keep playing.