@ZOS When are VR levels going away (step 1)? Just remove character VR levels and open up VR items

NewBlacksmurf

Soulshine wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

They just need to remove VR levels period.

As I said, that won't change anything.

Removing VR level without giving us new stuff to do only makes the whole situation even worse.

My "option" was just a way to show how awful VR levels can be turned into less awful VR levels.

There are two components here that result in the final issue:

VR Content (zones, quests etc.) and VR progression (slowly, dull, bland, non-rewarding etc.)

Right now both components are quite bad. When you take away the VR progression, the whole VR Content gets even worse because you have - besides the Champion System - no real motivation to do it.

The biggest issue here is the missing content. If there would be more VR content with a player choice where to go, it would be better than it is now. It wouldn't be good or great, but better.

If tomorrow they just removed the character VR levels (ours not npc's) in this phase

My post is for this phase and I his does work fine.
The need for content will always be there but the game isn't that old.

The problem is that the NPC's were adjust back in closed BETA to be too easy along the lines when they added VR levels.

If they remove the VR levels now and then adjust other things in later phases as schedule this one adjust creates a HUGE viability to play post 50 ANd actually creates value to the crown store explorers item

All the stuff you're mentioning takes months and some is not even on their radar.

I'm coming with a logic approach in line with what they've already said they are going to do but just chose not to

The Champion System was created to -- supposedly -- replace VR.

You seem to think it is a simple issue of just taking the numbers away and be done with it. It isn't. Balancing the game for CS is far, far more complex than balancing for VR would ever have been, and even Sage himself discussed this at length in the Champion System presentation.

You cannot remove VR right now without adding the systems needed to support progression though the Champion System as he discussed. These are still missing from the game.

I do realize it's not simple. I'm just making a part suggestion within this phase

NewBlacksmurf

BBSooner wrote: »

I hope nobody is under the impression that when they remove VR level 50 will be the cap. That would require additional reworking of all the items and VR zones. Very likely the VR is just going to be made regular levels, and level cap will be 63 ... or even just rounded up to 65.

I think we are saying the same thing but I do want to point it.
Character levels would should max at 50
NPC levels should go numeric

Naivefanboi

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I know it was mentioned on live twitch ask the devs months back but then we hear that it will be here until after console launch.
I understand there may be challenges and lots of things to figure out but keeping them around seems odd now that the champion system is here.

Considering we can earn hundreds of champion points and get really strong overtime I'm asking one thing...


Can I ask that you remove the VR levels from our characters only
Also remove the VR level restrictions for any VR item, armor, weapon to level 50 OR to specific champion levels.
Even if 1CP equals VR1 armor, weapons, potion requirements it's a great step in the right direction.


Just hoping to have this phased out by June/July.

no no zos will wait till after console launch if they even do it at this point.
that way they can annoy abunch of the new console gamers who just hit vr6-14

so one of 3 things will happe, zos will be logical and remove vr levels before console.....rofl ikr but it could happen.
zos will remove vr levels after console launch and annoy the hardcore crowd who get into game on console and hit level cap. gamers dont like having their time wasted lol.
or veteran levels will never leave and removing them will be forgotten in b2p dust, this is what im predicting and hoping for.

Endurance

the ppl that got to VR14 before 1.6 had it easy, while the ones doing it in 2.0.1 have a hell of a grind so this is why everyone is complaining

Vahrokh

Endurance wrote: »

the ppl that got to VR14 before 1.6 had it easy, while the ones doing it in 2.0.1 have a hell of a grind so this is why everyone is complaining

Wait for 3.0 (console release?), for when they'll remove VR and replace it with... paid DLCs.
Because Wrothgar, IC etc. etc. were all cool concepts when game was Pay to Play but now they'll have to charge for them.

Imagine getting to regular level 50. Then, even completely removing levels and putting in level-adapt content, you still must do "something" in order to go from the character "power" given at today's level 50 to the character "power" you have today at VR14. If they remove VR replay content, that something would be new zones to quest in... but now those zones need to be purchased.

What a mess they are hopping into.

Attorneyatlawl

Going to just re-post my thoughts from the last time this exact thread showed up, a scant couple of days ago :

Given that the vet content is basically as easy as levels 1-50 in terms of the mob difficulty overall now, there really is no difference between calling the level cap "Veteran Rank 14" and "Level 64". The areas have been nerfed significantly twice (once before launch by a bit, and once post-launch), and the XP needed to go through them has as well. What benefit could there possibly be to trying to re-scale everyone's existing items/stats to some arbitrary level 50 or below number? What exactly do people hope would come of "removing" the extra levels (veteran ranks) that are there now? It would be an incredibly complex undertaking for no practical benefit, all while introducing many potential problems with the systems design and for existing players.

Are you saying you'd rather see the overall time to max level decreased? It's already pretty short. Besides, the same argument could be used for Alliance Ranks and achievements for advancing the Undaunted skill line, Legerdemain, Werewolf/Vampire, Mage's Guild, etc. too. Functionally, all "veteran ranks" are providing are extra levels. The Champion System is an alternate advancement type design and while it's a great addition to the game, it really has nothing to do with the underlying level cap for normal character levels (1 to V14(aka level 64)).

Attorneyatlawl

Endurance wrote: »

the ppl that got to VR14 before 1.6 had it easy, while the ones doing it in 2.0.1 have a hell of a grind so this is why everyone is complaining

It's still doable quickly, and far more quickly than the 1.0 to 1.1 patch era . 1.5 to the current 2.0.1 patch have been the same leveling-wise where the quest xp was brought down significantly, but the overall time to level remains faster than beta and launch.

Craven_Killmore

how will removing them improve your game experience, you will still be leveling in cadwells silver and gold anyways... it's like complaining you have to go to the doctor when your sick, useless.

Seraphyel

Craven_Killmore wrote: »

how will removing them improve your game experience, you will still be leveling in cadwells silver and gold anyways... it's like complaining you have to go to the doctor when your sick, useless.

That's exactly the point. Veteran Ranks are connected to Cadwells Silver & Gold. As I pointed out on the first page, both are a must because they "improve" the overall feeling despite of one of them being here without the other (VR zones without VR progression would be awful, VR progression without VR zones would be awful).

Zenimax needs to implement other zones for getting the VR ranks to make it a "better" feeling.

Removing them will only better the situation when Zenimax adds new types of Content AND adjusts Cadwells Silver & Gold.

Xjcon

Is it to hard to level to VR 14? I know 1-50 was kinda fast and maybe that's the problem. Maybe they should have had molag get away twice and only kill him at the end of gold,

I don't see an issue with vr 14, and I don't see how making every piece of gear accessible at lvl 50 will help the game.

Xjcon

Endurance wrote: »

the ppl that got to VR14 before 1.6 had it easy, while the ones doing it in 2.0.1 have a hell of a grind so this is why everyone is complaining

The people before 2.0 claimed the exact same thing.

Seraphyel

Xjcon wrote: »

Is it to hard to level to VR 14? I know 1-50 was kinda fast and maybe that's the problem. Maybe they should have had molag get away twice and only kill him at the end of gold,

I don't see an issue with vr 14, and I don't see how making every piece of gear accessible at lvl 50 will help the game.

VR1-10 is like 1-50 but twice. And VR10-14 is just a Craglorn grind fest.

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO

No, keep Vet levels.

Every other suggestion in this thread is unacceptable, except for the user-created content. Neverwinter made it work, albeit with its assorted problems. If there is one mmo that should allow restricted dev tool use, that's the mmo based on THE ELDER SCROLLS SERIES. I remember playing Neverwinter 1.5 years ago and thinking: Elder scrolls could do this better.

NewBlacksmurf

Craven_Killmore wrote: »

how will removing them improve your game experience, you will still be leveling in cadwells silver and gold anyways... it's like complaining you have to go to the doctor when your sick, useless.

I don't agree. If the VR levels are gone I will not do the silver and gold quests. I'd only grab shards and skills and then do other stuff as the first time done gives me the champion points and other times through I'd just to do something as I want but not required to get to Craglorn.

Hypertionb14_ESO

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I don't get what you are expecting removing VR levels to bring to the game at this point?

You still have a lot of XP to earn to get CP. You still, presumably, will need to get the best type of weapons whether they are called VR14 or '50++'. You will still have to quest through the VR1-10 areas to get skills, items, achieves, skyshards and so on.

Also if after the recent changes they remove 13 skill points and equivalent stat points from everyone who has reached VR14 and similar removals from anyone VR1 or higher then they will probably face an armed uprising.

I've never really understood what the beef is with the VR levels themselves - I get that some don't like questing (although why you'd not expect questing in an online game based on the biggest questing RPG series is another question), I get that some have issue with immersion and offering other ways to level is always good - but levels are just levels... how does the game become better if you remove 14 levels?

you wont need to do anything beyond the inital 1-50 in order to play endgame if you already have a maxed out character.

the Vet grind is the worst in the game... far worse is the fact that even if you finish all the vet zones you still wont be able to join endgame content for a while because it will only get you around vet 11 or so. meaning you HAVE TO GRIND to be able to join endgame stuff on a new character...

the Vet grind is the single most major turn off for players of this game atm, and always has been.

Vet levels are really bad because of how much enemy mobs scale with those levels, and a Vet 1 cannot deal with Vet 14 Npcs as a result in general. the fact you have to grind to even begin to be competitive is the problem.

WraithAzraiel

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I know it was mentioned on live twitch ask the devs months back but then we hear that it will be here until after console launch.
I understand there may be challenges and lots of things to figure out but keeping them around seems odd now that the champion system is here.

Considering we can earn hundreds of champion points and get really strong overtime I'm asking one thing...


Can I ask that you remove the VR levels from our characters only
Also remove the VR level restrictions for any VR item, armor, weapon to level 50 OR to specific champion levels.
Even if 1CP equals VR1 armor, weapons, potion requirements it's a great step in the right direction.


Just hoping to have this phased out by June/July.

Unlikely. They're releasing on Consoles in June. Nothing new will be added or anything major likely taken away until Fall.

NewBlacksmurf

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I know it was mentioned on live twitch ask the devs months back but then we hear that it will be here until after console launch.
I understand there may be challenges and lots of things to figure out but keeping them around seems odd now that the champion system is here.

Considering we can earn hundreds of champion points and get really strong overtime I'm asking one thing...


Can I ask that you remove the VR levels from our characters only
Also remove the VR level restrictions for any VR item, armor, weapon to level 50 OR to specific champion levels.
Even if 1CP equals VR1 armor, weapons, potion requirements it's a great step in the right direction.


Just hoping to have this phased out by June/July.

Unlikely. They're releasing on Consoles in June. Nothing new will be added or anything major likely taken away until Fall.

Sounds like a recipe for failure of possibly an almost really good game for consoles.
I do hope another change happens soon

Seraphyel

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Sounds like a recipe for failure of possibly an almost really good game for consoles.
I do hope another change happens soon

What change?

Zenimax doesn't give us new content and they cling to some of their worst design decisions (UI, VR etc.) without removing or at least improving them.

NewBlacksmurf

Seraphyel wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Sounds like a recipe for failure of possibly an almost really good game for consoles.
I do hope another change happens soon

What change?

Zenimax doesn't give us new content and they cling to some of their worst design decisions (UI, VR etc.) without removing or at least improving them.

Any good changes....anything less like ideas you mentioned, I've mentioned or others.

bg22

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I don't get what you are expecting removing VR levels to bring to the game at this point?

You still have a lot of XP to earn to get CP. You still, presumably, will need to get the best type of weapons whether they are called VR14 or '50++'. You will still have to quest through the VR1-10 areas to get skills, items, achieves, skyshards and so on.

Also if after the recent changes they remove 13 skill points and equivalent stat points from everyone who has reached VR14 and similar removals from anyone VR1 or higher then they will probably face an armed uprising.

I've never really understood what the beef is with the VR levels themselves - I get that some don't like questing (although why you'd not expect questing in an online game based on the biggest questing RPG series is another question), I get that some have issue with immersion and offering other ways to level is always good - but levels are just levels... how does the game become better if you remove 14 levels?

How with 5 stars... Are you not aware that 14 Veteran ranks is the equivalent of going through another 100 levels of content? lol

The VR levels simply create a GIGANTIC gap between lvl 50 players and VR14 players. So much so, that until you're roughly VR8~ you're worthless in Cyrodiil.

Seraphyel

bg22 wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I don't get what you are expecting removing VR levels to bring to the game at this point?

You still have a lot of XP to earn to get CP. You still, presumably, will need to get the best type of weapons whether they are called VR14 or '50++'. You will still have to quest through the VR1-10 areas to get skills, items, achieves, skyshards and so on.

Also if after the recent changes they remove 13 skill points and equivalent stat points from everyone who has reached VR14 and similar removals from anyone VR1 or higher then they will probably face an armed uprising.

I've never really understood what the beef is with the VR levels themselves - I get that some don't like questing (although why you'd not expect questing in an online game based on the biggest questing RPG series is another question), I get that some have issue with immersion and offering other ways to level is always good - but levels are just levels... how does the game become better if you remove 14 levels?

How with 5 stars... Are you not aware that 14 Veteran ranks is the equivalent of going through another 100 levels of content? lol

The VR levels simply create a GIGANTIC gap between lvl 50 players and VR14 players. So much so, that until you're roughly VR8~ you're worthless in Cyrodiil.

Not only a gigantic gap between VR1 and VR14, they are a motivation grave.

Alphashado

The issue with Vet Ranks is how long it takes each character to become relevant and competitive for endgame. It was a gigantic design flaw from a company creating their first MMO. ZoS created Vet levels under the guise of endgame content. In their opinion (and they have said as much many times) V1-V10-V14 was designed to give people many hours of enjoyable content to do with their friends after reaching level cap. They did not understand what true endgame content is.

Each Vet Rank is basically the same as 10 levels of time and progression. So the laughable and incredibly painful aspect of Vet Ranks is that you MUST complete an additional 130 levels of content AFTER you beat that main story BEFORE you are relevant or remotely competitive for REAL endgame content.

I've said this before in other threads and I will say it again. The most painless way to convert VRs would be to reduce the XP required to advance in level 50+ so that it's the same as 1-50, and make the level cap 63. Then you would only have 13 additional (normal) levels to complete after beating the main story and the only programming you would have to change would be XP required to gain CP and the text on gear/items to say "requires level 63" instead of "requires VR 14".

All of the current gear would still work. All of the current crafting materials would still work. You would still get 13 additional attribute pts post lvl 50. All of the 50+ and 50++ zones would still be incredibly useful and desired for farming CP.

And most importantly, completing the other faction's content would be optional and each alternate character and/or new player can be competitive and relevant at TRUE endgame content withing a reasonable amount of time.

There is still the issue of disparity between zero CP and 300+ CP, but that is an entirely different issue. Mixing the two issues just makes it worse.

BlackEar

VR zones are needed. They deliver content. How else would we be playing?

infraction2008b16_ESO

Craven_Killmore wrote: »

how will removing them improve your game experience, you will still be leveling in cadwells silver and gold anyways... it's like
have to go to the doctor when your sick, useless.

Removing them would mean instead of people being seperated by vet ranks would only have to do the first zone/main story in order be at the same point in the game as everyone else ready for trials, dungeons, future zones etc instead of being gated by rank.

That's a good thing, I mean what's the point in an Mmo which makes it hard for players to progress through the game together?

Anoteros

Seraphyel wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Sounds like a recipe for failure of possibly an almost really good game for consoles.
I do hope another change happens soon

What change?

Zenimax doesn't give us new content and they cling to some of their worst design decisions (UI, VR etc.) without removing or at least improving them.

absolutely right.

maryriv

They are increasing Cyrodiil to v10 I seriously doubt they are going to get rid of vet levels any time soon, if ever.

Rykoth

They've said VR leveling is being removed. That said, I don't understand *how*

What's the point of all the VR Ranked Armors if there's no VR?

I think the solution is for people to chill out, have patience. When Wrothgar, and Murkmire, and all the other zones come out, I think folks'll find there's more than a few paths to level up and not just Cadwell's crap.

Valnas

the issue is casuals are trying to get the end game balanced to their playstyle.

McDoogs

Rykoth wrote: »

They've said VR leveling is being removed. That said, I don't understand *how*

What's the point of all the VR Ranked Armors if there's no VR?

I think the solution is for people to chill out, have patience. When Wrothgar, and Murkmire, and all the other zones come out, I think folks'll find there's more than a few paths to level up and not just Cadwell's crap.

They said that, but I don't see them actually being able to create new content (they need DLC for revenue now) and completely re-balancing the existing veteran content, gear, as well as all the vet player characters. 2/3rds of the game, at least, is balanced for the existence of veteran ranks. I think that the business realities will force the idea of removing veteran ranks to the scrap heap.

Roechacca

There will be more game design changes and nerfs then Tabula Rasa if things keep going in this direction .