Update on Cyrodiil Performance

Rust_in_Peace

The game is unplayable in it's current state.

wraith808

Rhaenir wrote: »

The game is unplayable in it's current state.

... but I'm playing it? As are several others?

OH! Hyperbole!

It's playable. There are problems that are being worked on as stated at the beginning of the thread. And people that try to take advantage of it apparently, though I'm usually in delves and doing missions rather than at the keeps, so I don't see them as bad.

Rust_in_Peace

So you're doing PVE in the middle of no where and that's representative of the state of PVP as a whole?

Get out.

osnernb16_ESO

I feel very sad to say it, but Zos, really I think this issue is gonna kill you in the not to far future. The disappointment in this area of the game takes it's toll.... I hope it doesn't, but by now, I think it will. I'm so sorry, I know you are all trying.

Cyrodiil Killes Zos, Like Video Killed the Radio Stars..

wraith808

osnernb16_ESO wrote: »

I feel very sad to say it, but Zos, really I think this issue is gonna kill you in the not to far future. The disappointment in this area of the game takes it's toll.... I hope it doesn't, but by now, I think it will. I'm so sorry, I know you are all trying.

Cyrodiil Killes Zos, Like Video Killed the Radio Stars..

You should look in the other Cyrodiil thread. They're going in the right direction, IMO. It just takes time.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

The current problems in Cyrodiil might kill PvP, but even if PvP were to be removed from the game altogether, I think that the PvE content would have enough attraction to retain at least a large portion of the current players. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but if Cyrodiil were to disappear from the game tomorrow, many players wouldn't even notice, much less care. There are not all that many people still fighting the Alliance War.

Without PvP, ESO would no longer be the game that was advertised, and the players who only want to do PvP would leave, but a PvE-only version of ESO would probably still be a game that many people would enjoy.

Ysne58

There are more people playing PvP than you think. I'm not one of em, but yes they matter too.

HeroOfNone

JTorus wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

I like your post but I have to disagree. I watch Twitch stream on my I-Pad when I am not playing. I watch many players who play on the three competitive EP guilds (H, H and I) who stream. They are top ranked EP players. You can clearly hear the raid leaders (the crown) tell the ppl to lag the server in their TS, especially when they are losing or outnumbered. The have abilities slotted to minimize lag influence and they do it intentionally. It does not happen once in a while, it happens almost every night. They clearly tell them what abilities to spam. Recently, I heard one raid leader to have 8 players with resto staff staffs to spam healing springs right outside the breach. That person is a top Five Player for EP. I would name the players, guilds and the streamers but I want the streamers to keep their TS channel open. Because they are not just exploiters they are not very bright. I would tape them to get them banned but I don’t care. I can see that behind their webcam they are living in their mom's basement and that is punishment enough. In reality, unless C and A are leading groups thier top guilds are not very effective. My guild creamed said name groups (well 2 of the guilds but who can tell as they share the same players mostly anyways) outside bleakers last night 3/17/15 at around 6 pm to 7pm pac time on Chill over and over and over as the one competent group leader was not on. We even let them rez each other so we could cream them again. They did not come back, aaawwww. Tonight if C and/or A are not there we will cream them again. Better hope those two never stop playing or roll another faction.

--> Zenimax Media TOS <--
We all just agreed to these (revised?) terms on Monday's patch. Every last active player is bound to these terms.
Section 8
Bullet point 8

You agree not to use any Service to:
Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Bullet point 10

Engage in disruptive behavior in chat areas, game areas, forums, or any other area or aspect of the Services. Examples of disruptive behavior include, but is not limited to, conduct which interferes with the normal flow of gameplay or dialogue within a Service, vulgar language, abusiveness, hitting the return key repeatedly or inputting large images so the screen goes by too fast to read, use of excessive shouting [i.e., all text in capitals] in an attempt to disturb other users, "spamming" or flooding [i.e., posting repetitive text], commercial postings, solicitations and advertisements, posting advertising or promotional messaging, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or other commercial activities.

Section 9
Paragraph 2

You may not participate, take part in, initiate, or engage in actions that impose an unreasonable or disproportionate load on the infrastructure hosting the Game(s) and/or Services.

We need to help ZOS when we see this stuff going on.

• Screencap the offenders (get their name)
• Record streams/TS conversations
• Report it ZOS /bug /feedback. Login to the website and file the incident, create a ticket. Include map coordinates, time, etc if you're able. Do it through official channels. Make it official.

Be polite and respectful; don't whine or complain; don't make demands or violate any TOS rules yourself. ZOS is as frustrated as we are with this garbage, lets not put them on the defensive with rude behavior. Also, do not expect to ever get any sort of reply from ZOS indicating that some sort of action was taken. And don't expect change overnight. Sometimes a company has to build a case before taking certain measures. You're not in this for the social justice of the matter, you're in this to help them improve their product and your playing experience. ZOS has a system in place to remove these troublemakers, lets (respectfully) help them utilize it.

We're out there every night, lots of us are in guilds chatting in TS. It shouldn't be too hard to organize a 'screencap night'.

100% agree. my only current issue, and maybe ZOS can come to some middle ground with this and "No naming and shaming". When someone is intentionally leading warbands and groups like this, streaming it, and promoting it as a valid tactic like DHale suggests, then I feel that the news should come out from someone that:

1. Something wrong was done
2. Do not do said wrong thing
3. list out who not to listen to when they say to do that.

We have folks who think that because someone will promote it in zone chat or worse yet, in stream, it may be a valid tactic. We also have folks that promote themselves as spies for the other faction, so knowing who they are and spreading that information is rather important to counteracting it. In other cases, like jumping through the walls and crap, its important to realize when you see that person's name that they could be doing that, to help mitigate the exploit.

I don't have a good answer on what that middle ground can be though, just that there is an issue with so many being in the dark on players that are doing obvious exploits and cheats.

Messy1

houimetub17_ESO wrote: »

Today art 13:00 - 13:15, in NA thornblade, reds were pushing blue to get their scroll back.

Only EP was pop locked

Blues had 3 bars pop

Yellow had 2 bars pop

The lag went do bad around there that we could not use abilities, share quest, walk around... NADA

Even in Chillrend during primetime and all 3 factions pop locked no such nonsense happen.

Open your eyes ZoS, there is a group of EP NA who is using some kind of video stream to overload the server and cause lag intentionally. All the time. Look at when they push for emperor or for scrolls it happends all the time

If there is even a suspicion about something like this happening it needs to be investigated immediately and if there is any wrongdoing discovered it needs to be fixed immediately. I have been playing Thornblade and have noticed that whenever a pack of EP comes towards our DC group I get significant lag and slow down. This doesn't happen when we engage AD forces however.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

The current problems in Cyrodiil might kill PvP, but even if PvP were to be removed from the game altogether, I think that the PvE content would have enough attraction to retain at least a large portion of the current players. Hopefully, it won't come to that, but if Cyrodiil were to disappear from the game tomorrow, many players wouldn't even notice, much less care. There are not all that many people still fighting the Alliance War.

Without PvP, ESO would no longer be the game that was advertised, and the players who only want to do PvP would leave, but a PvE-only version of ESO would probably still be a game that many people would enjoy.

I really hope PvP can survive and prosper . . . it is incredibly fun when working properly. I introduced a guild member to PvE and PvP in Cyrodil and they told me "Thank you so much, this is the most fun I've ever had playing this game!"

ZOS should work hard to punish any individuals who are found to be causing lag intentionally. If it is becoming apparent that these sort of lag tactics are becoming a problem for the game it needs to be rectified immediately for the health of the game. It should be obvious that 1) Those responsible for lag tactics are a minority in the game and have a very selfish and specific reason to be implementing such tactics, namely, to give themselves a superior edge in the PvP battle 2) Letting lag tactics persist will scare away new players from entering PvP because of the perceived reputation that PvP has acquired for lag tactics being used 3) Further development of game dynamics and content are being hindered by people who use lag tactics because so much time has to be focused on combating players who do this.

ONCE AGAIN, WHOEVER IS USING LAG TACTICS IN THE GAME IS A MINORITY AND IF THEY NEED TO BE BANNED FOR PVP TO BECOME FUNCTIONAL AGAIN AND TO BE DEVELOPED INTO A MORE FUN ENVIRONMENT THEN SO BE IT. WE WILL NOT MISS THEM.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Ysne58 wrote: »

There are more people playing PvP than you think. I'm not one of em, but yes they matter too.

I'm not saying they don't matter, but it might be more effort to keep supporting them than what ZOS think it's worth.

Objectively, there are only a few thousand players in Cyrodiil at peak hours. Population cap on all campaigns on both servers means less than 15,000 people worldwide at one time. There may be more people playing PvP than I think, but I would also say that there are fewer people playing PvP than most PvP players realize.

But like I said above, I really hope it doesn't come to ZOS giving up on PvP.

Ysne58

Don't forget that there are two servers. And there is also a dedicated group of players that make PTS their main server. So that is three mega servers that have pvp available.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

I did not forget that there are two servers, and the PTS has nowere near as many players as either of the two main servers. Please read what I wrote: "Population cap on all campaigns on both servers means less than 15,000 people worldwide at one time."

Doing the math and even including one pop-locked campaign for the PTS still adds up to less than 15,000.
1,200 players per campaign, five campaigns per server plus the equivalent of one full campaign in PTS means 11x1,200 = 13,200 people. In all the world. That's the absolute maximum amount of people who could possibly be playing PvP at once, and how many times have you seen all campaigns locked for all factions?

Not everyone plays every day, but this is their peak capacity, the amount of slots they need to have to allow for everyone who could possibly want to play PvP during peak hours to get a spot in Cyrodiil.

IcyDeadPeople

Sylvyr wrote: »

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Only real way of fixing it just dawned on me.

Reduce the skills we take into Cyrodil to two per bar and no ultimate.
Make battles be fought with weapons , light and heavy attacks.
One damage ability and one heal, or two damage, or two heals. That's it.


I'll lol myself for that one, but might be how they handle it vs. Fixing it for real before next year.

How about taking out all skills and we just emote what we do.

Sure, we can use our imaginations to view the particle FX.

DHale wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

The_Death_Princess wrote: »

Why is it that when Blue team on Yellow team fight the population can be maxed out, certainly much greater, in the area and the lag is tolerable?
(We believe red team is exploiting this)

Nobody is exploiting lag. When latency shoots up to 1000+ ping and we suddenly have turn based combat mechanics, it is happening for all the factions. There is not a situation where you can make other people lag without experiencing it on your own faction.

It is equally challenging to play with lag whether you are attempting to assault or defend a keep. Nobody wants it, nobody benefits from it, and when it persists for a while, we lose players from all three factions as people get disconnected or log off.

I like your post but I have to disagree. I watch Twitch stream on my I-Pad when I am not playing. I watch many players who play on the three competitive EP guilds (H, H and I) who stream. They are top ranked EP players. You can clearly hear the raid leaders (the crown) tell the ppl to lag the server in their TS, especially when they are losing or outnumbered. The have abilities slotted to minimize lag influence and they do it intentionally. It does not happen once in a while, it happens almost every night. They clearly tell them what abilities to spam. Recently, I heard one raid leader to have 8 players with resto staff staffs to spam healing springs right outside the breach. That person is a top Five Player for EP. I would name the players, guilds and the streamers but I want the streamers to keep their TS channel open. Because they are not just exploiters they are not very bright. I would tape them to get them banned but I don’t care. I can see that behind their webcam they are living in their mom's basement and that is punishment enough. In reality, unless C and A are leading groups thier top guilds are not very effective. My guild creamed said name groups (well 2 of the guilds but who can tell as they share the same players mostly anyways) outside bleakers last night 3/17/15 at around 6 pm to 7pm pac time on Chill over and over and over as the one competent group leader was not on. We even let them rez each other so we could cream them again. They did not come back, aaawwww. Tonight if C and/or A are not there we will cream them again. Better hope those two never stop playing or roll another faction.

Thanks for sharing this info, I had not heard of this going on. Intentional or not, I still can't imagine how lagging the server can possibly benefit anyone.

I play on EP and anytime the server lags, I cannot fight other players effectively, whether defending or attempting to assault a keep. It seems to affect everyone in the area equally, regardless of faction.

Merlin13KAGL

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Sylvyr wrote: »

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Only real way of fixing it just dawned on me.

Reduce the skills we take into Cyrodil to two per bar and no ultimate.
Make battles be fought with weapons , light and heavy attacks.
One damage ability and one heal, or two damage, or two heals. That's it.


I'll lol myself for that one, but might be how they handle it vs. Fixing it for real before next year.

How about taking out all skills and we just emote what we do.

Sure, we can use our imaginations to view the particle FX.

@IcyDeadPeople Immediately envisions:

"Shot you!"

"Did not."

"Did too!"

"Nu uh..."

"Uh huh!

DHale

See no lag.

Hear no lag.

Feel no lag.
.
Don't talk about the lag!

What Lag?

Lag is OP.

Nerf the lag

Hope that clarifies it for everyone.

Peace,

Sarousse

The lag is totally out of control.

Please, remove armor procs from ground AE (especially caltrops) so it doesn't lag anymore. I'm fed up with hearing 5 meteors/second when 2 warbands fight each other in a keep.

Messy1

You know, I wouldn't mind if ZOS had like a PvP test at least every week on the Live server in some made up PvP zone that everyone could join if they wanted to test out new ideas and concepts for PvP. I think it would be very helpful to everyone.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

Messy1 wrote: »

You know, I wouldn't mind if ZOS had like a PvP test at least every week on the Live server in some made up PvP zone that everyone could join if they wanted to test out new ideas and concepts for PvP. I think it would be very helpful to everyone.

Agreed. We are now way past the point where they can ask their customers to just have patience, and it's time for them to seek help with debugging. For the short term bug fixes, I am sure lots of people would be happy to participate in a developer directed test run on the PTS to pinpoint what's causing the current urgent problem. Leaving the PvP game in this broken state for much longer will kill it.

Rune_Relic

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

You know, I wouldn't mind if ZOS had like a PvP test at least every week on the Live server in some made up PvP zone that everyone could join if they wanted to test out new ideas and concepts for PvP. I think it would be very helpful to everyone.

Agreed. We are now way past the point where they can ask their customers to just have patience, and it's time for them to seek help with debugging. For the short term bug fixes, I am sure lots of people would be happy to participate in a developer directed test run on the PTS to pinpoint what's causing the current urgent problem. Leaving the PvP game in this broken state for much longer will kill it.

+3

KeplerMG

I really bothers me that ZOS focus is on finding ways to make players spread out, rather than finding out why Cyrodiil once worked, and no longer does. I feel they are on a tangent that is the wrong road towards getting this right.

The last time Cyrodiil was so unplayable was back when FPS drops were permanent and would persist through deaths and re-spawns. They fixed this, and Cyrodiil worked well for a while. Then they added fancy lighting and Cyrodiil got a little more laggy. Then they added facial expressions and Cyrodiil got a bit more laggy. Then update 6 came down and something in that update put Cyrodiil over the garbage tolerance limit and it can no longer operate. I think it is the AOE changes.

The way AOE works now is a bit more complicated and my guess is that it requires a lot more calculations. At the same time, the improvements to Meteor have increased its popularity. Meteor has always crashed and/or lagged out the server since day one. This is because if the target is moving, the ultimate does not fire and is not expended, and the player can keep casting it over again until the target stops moving and it finally hits. I've seen Meteor crash Cyrodiil many many times, long before 1.6. The difference now is that more people are using it.

Disable the lighting and facial expressions update in Cyrodiil. There is no time to stand around and enjoy them in a PVP zone. They are zero benefit in Cyrodiil and are way off base when taking the performance of Cyrodiil into consideration.

Revert AOE changes. This sloppy change was not well thought out. When forum cry babies began complaining about AOE spammers, ZOS began work on a 'fix'. Fortunately, many good players began to find better ways of dealing with the AOE cluster monkeys. Unfortunately, ZOS was not clued in on this and continued work on their 'fix'. By the time it went live... no... by the time it went to PTS, the ZOS solution had already become unnecessary. The new Alliance War Assault ability would have been enough help against the AOE cluster monkeys.

Last but not least, for the love of all that is good and right... change Meteor so that it can no longer be spammed due to moving targets. Make it a ground target AOE like Nova.

I'm not an expert at how this all works. I am just a person that has played the game and has seen the patterns. I write this because I love this game and desperately want to see it work again.

Yasha

wraith808 wrote: »

Rhaenir wrote: »

The game is unplayable in it's current state.

... but I'm playing it? As are several others?

OH! Hyperbole!

It's playable. There are problems that are being worked on as stated at the beginning of the thread. And people that try to take advantage of it apparently, though I'm usually in delves and doing missions rather than at the keeps, so I don't see them as bad.

Its been like this since launch, and it does drive people away from the game or at least from pvp. Writing off serious problems with "They are working on it" starts to get tired when it is used to excuse the same problems for almost a year.

Are they really working on it? Exactly what has been done and what are the plans for improving the situation? What has been done over the last year specifically in relation to pvp lag, and why hasn't it been effective?

I am glad at least now we have gotten past people just saying "oh its your computer settings/graphics card/internet connection", but I would like to see some real progress.

Messy1

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

You know, I wouldn't mind if ZOS had like a PvP test at least every week on the Live server in some made up PvP zone that everyone could join if they wanted to test out new ideas and concepts for PvP. I think it would be very helpful to everyone.

Agreed. We are now way past the point where they can ask their customers to just have patience, and it's time for them to seek help with debugging. For the short term bug fixes, I am sure lots of people would be happy to participate in a developer directed test run on the PTS to pinpoint what's causing the current urgent problem. Leaving the PvP game in this broken state for much longer will kill it.

And hopefully it would help determine if lag tactics are a part of it, although, I'm sure the people who participate in it will not be the perpetrators, but if they can get similar numbers involved in PTS tests then they can see if it is possibility that people really are using lag tactics in ESO PvP

KeplerMG wrote: »

I really bothers me that ZOS focus is on finding ways to make players spread out, rather than finding out why Cyrodiil once worked, and no longer does. I feel they are on a tangent that is the wrong road towards getting this right.

The last time Cyrodiil was so unplayable was back when FPS drops were permanent and would persist through deaths and re-spawns. They fixed this, and Cyrodiil worked well for a while. Then they added fancy lighting and Cyrodiil got a little more laggy. Then they added facial expressions and Cyrodiil got a bit more laggy. Then update 6 came down and something in that update put Cyrodiil over the garbage tolerance limit and it can no longer operate. I think it is the AOE changes.

The way AOE works now is a bit more complicated and my guess is that it requires a lot more calculations. At the same time, the improvements to Meteor have increased its popularity. Meteor has always crashed and/or lagged out the server since day one. This is because if the target is moving, the ultimate does not fire and is not expended, and the player can keep casting it over again until the target stops moving and it finally hits. I've seen Meteor crash Cyrodiil many many times, long before 1.6. The difference now is that more people are using it.

Disable the lighting and facial expressions update in Cyrodiil. There is no time to stand around and enjoy them in a PVP zone. They are zero benefit in Cyrodiil and are way off base when taking the performance of Cyrodiil into consideration.

Revert AOE changes. This sloppy change was not well thought out. When forum cry babies began complaining about AOE spammers, ZOS began work on a 'fix'. Fortunately, many good players began to find better ways of dealing with the AOE cluster monkeys. Unfortunately, ZOS was not clued in on this and continued work on their 'fix'. By the time it went live... no... by the time it went to PTS, the ZOS solution had already become unnecessary. The new Alliance War Assault ability would have been enough help against the AOE cluster monkeys.

Last but not least, for the love of all that is good and right... change Meteor so that it can no longer be spammed due to moving targets. Make it a ground target AOE like Nova.

I'm not an expert at how this all works. I am just a person that has played the game and has seen the patterns. I write this because I love this game and desperately want to see it work again.

It's worth a shot, they should try everything that you mentioned.

Rust_in_Peace

DHale wrote: »

I watch many players who play on the three competitive EP guilds (H, H and I) who stream. They are top ranked EP players. You can clearly hear the raid leaders (the crown) tell the ppl to lag the server in their TS, especially when they are losing or outnumbered. The have abilities slotted to minimize lag influence and they do it intentionally. It does not happen once in a while, it happens almost every night. They clearly tell them what abilities to spam. Recently, I heard one raid leader to have 8 players with resto staff staffs to spam healing springs right outside the breach. That person is a top Five Player for EP. I would name the players, guilds and the streamers but I want the streamers to keep their TS channel open. Because they are not just exploiters they are not very bright. I would tape them to get them banned but I don’t care. I can see that behind their webcam they are living in their mom's basement and that is punishment enough. In reality, unless C and A are leading groups thier top guilds are not very effective.

I would suggest doing what I have started to do and that is send in reports by email giving the time and date of when it happened and describe exactly what you were doing and who you saw doing it.

All I asked in my report is that the issue be investigated. If what everyone suspects is true it should be taken very seriously not just in their actions against the guilty parties but to figure out a way to stop anyone else from doing it in the future.

Vunter

ZOS, just introduce small scale PVP in the game already since you aren't able to do the large scale one properly.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

[snip] You promised large scale combat and you guys failed. You best get your act together and figure it out.

[edited for inappropriate content]

KeplerMG

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

[snip] You promised large scale combat and you guys failed. You best get your act together and figure it out.

Even worse, one of the biggest selling points of this game is the Alliance War and they advertise that is supports hundreds of players on screen at once.

This is copied and pasted from here

Featuring three-sided Player vs. Player (PvP) gameplay, The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited supports hundreds of players on screen at once in an open world fight for control of Cyrodiil.

I feel sorry for all the future console players who buy this game because they are excited about the PVP, only to find out that it does not actually work as described.

[edited to remove quote]

tiamak

KeplerMG wrote: »

I feel sorry for all the future console players who buy this game because they are excited about the PVP, only to find out that it does not actually work as described.

One might have to check out, how Cyrodiil behaves towards the console players. If I remember correctly, those guys will play on different servers. So what happens to us doesn't necessarily happen to them as well. Furthermore, if the problem lies with some inappropriate way to use skills (as sometimes is suggested), it might not be a problem for console players. Maybe, using a controller does not permit that inappropriate use of skills? Or in general, maybe the much more regulated environment of a console game is in favour of delicate game mechanics like those in Cyrodiil?

KeplerMG

tiamak wrote: »

KeplerMG wrote: »

I feel sorry for all the future console players who buy this game because they are excited about the PVP, only to find out that it does not actually work as described.

One might have to check out, how Cyrodiil behaves towards the console players. If I remember correctly, those guys will play on different servers. So what happens to us doesn't necessarily happen to them as well. Furthermore, if the problem lies with some inappropriate way to use skills (as sometimes is suggested), it might not be a problem for console players. Maybe, using a controller does not permit that inappropriate use of skills? Or in general, maybe the much more regulated environment of a console game is in favour of delicate game mechanics like those in Cyrodiil?

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

pmn100b16_ESO

@ZOS_PaulSage So what now? One week after this thread appeared no update from a dev. Whats being looked at? How are you approaching this problem? Cyrodiil performance is worse than ever and in all honesty it isn't the consumers responsibility to come up with "ideas" to fix it, that's what ZoS is paid to do.

Look at the video in this thread (if its not deleted already):
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/159511/can-anyone-explain-to-me-whats-happening-in-the-video#latest #

That's about 15 people!!! Serious problems here.

Is it time to openly admit that it is beyond Zenimax's current capability to fix Cyrodiil? [snip]

[edited for bashing]

monkeyzealer

i would be happy to know if they would look at changing how you lvl up Assualt and Support skill and make them not tied to alliance rank and like this where able to lvl up assault skill line by capturing keeps/resources and maybe even killing players and have support skill line lvl up by repair keeps and healing people. this would get a lot of pve it know it won't be 100% maybe like 15% of Pvers who only go in there to get a skills from the assault/support Skill lines that would help in pve.