5 slots is not enough for our bars.

ch.ris317b14_ESO · July 2015

CMG138 wrote: »

This is something that has bothered me since launch, although I'm not sure if anyone has posted about it. 5 slots is definitely not enough to be very versatile. Every other MMO that I've played gives you at least 10, which I think is a much more reasonable number. I can't be the only one who has to change their skill bar depending on what kind of enemies they're going to face. If we had 10 slots, our combat styles could be much more unique, and it could lead to people spamming abilities less in PvP. Of players would have a lot more passives, but I think that would really bring out the differences in classes. I understand why ZoS only gave us 5 slots, they had to cater to console players, of course we can see how successful it's been on that field.

You get two weapon slots and two ultimates

Plus active block, active attack with variable input, and bash....

Thats actually quite a bit of options.

..... the really limiting factor is that theu forced us into classes instead of being able to pursue all skill lines as a normal ES game would allow.

Trensharo · July 2015

gurugeorgey wrote: »

I think it depends. I think 10 skills is actually a pretty decent balance.

The thing is, with MMOs you can have a choice, either you have lots of skills and lots of them available, but they don't do very much of any note, ie. there's not much "oomph" to any of them; or you have less skills that are more well defined, more definite, more powerful, and you can actually learn to use them really well (because you're forced to wring out the max of what can be done with combos of them because of the limited selection).

I played EQ2 for a while, and yes, there's a lot of fun to be had having a massive toolbox; but a massive toolbox is perforce a toolbox wherein no particular tool stands out all that much, and in the long run I prefer having "big", well-defined abilities with lots of oomph, and I like the way you can experiment in the game to find a combination to suit your playstyle, and the limitation helps you focus in that way, helps you find a combo that's uniquely yours.

Another point, worth noting in this context, is that actually you can usefully use only a few keys quickly and effectively (i.e. those near your index, middle and ring fingers, with pinky handling shift and CTRL, thumb maybe on ALT), so keys like 3 and 4, maybe 5, with E, R, Q, F, Z, C, V, with 1 and 2 suitable for ring finger. (obviously everyone's got their variations, but just as a general idea). Other keys, being less to hand, are mostly either for situational abilities or abilities you don't need to trigger very often for one reason or another. So there's a kind of "natural" limitation right there anyway.

No class in EQ2 requires 4+ full bars of skills to DPS, Heal, or Tank/Support.

The other bars are there for convenience, for example a Summoner may have all of their pets and pet support spells on one bar, then all of their buffs (most of which aren't even used in a group situation, to be frank) on another, in addition to DD Spells and CC, etc.

But in reality, I didn't use more than 10 buttons to DPS on my Necro, and some of those buttons were cool downs (some fairly long - E-Tox, Lifeburn, etc.). I also played a Warlock (betrayed to Wizard and back, so got experience on both of those), and it wasn't much different, nor was my Enchanter any different.

The bars are there for convenience, and because PC gamers who actually do cursory research do not have issues reaching those buttons because a $50 MMO mouse or gamepad puts them all at a ringer's reach.

The controls for TESO work great for console players with minimal amounts of buttons available to them (barring the PS4's KB/Mouse support, but they use that because the XB360/One doesn't support it), but they are horrible for PC play. They render much of your gaming hardware obsolete, and they are way less efficient than if you had just given more expansive skill bars.

Even EverQuest in 1999 had more skill slots than TESO.

I sort of expect the limited skill slots in Action MMOs like Diablo and Path of Exile. In an MMORPG, it's way too restrictive and it makes it too easy to coral people into very few template builds since some skills are so powerful that there is really no way to get away from them in a build to diversify, without destroying the gameplay in some way.

dlepi24 · July 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

GlassHalfFull wrote: »

Yes, the horse is dead. Basically with this game you need to use your brain to plan for an encounter more than just using a finger to spam one of ten skills.

While I know you're desperately trying to portray the combat in this game as something deep and complex, in fact the fewer the number of skills the LESS SKILLFUL you need to be to play.

'Plan for an encounter'?

Wut?

You mean spending time to re-slot skills in your action bar before every encounter is SKILLFUL? It's certainly bloody boring and an utter waste of time. When playing games which allow for tens of skills to be available I spend time PLAYING THE GAME, not faffing with the UI every 30 seconds.

CMG138 wrote: »

So instead we should just spam one of five skills?

Well no, 10, because the game's battle mechanics are HUGELY expanded in depth by having the gear-swap ability to give you another 5 to select from.

The sad fact @GlassHalfFull would love to ignore is that this game, as all other similar MMOs is based ENTIRELY on skill rotations dictated by the min/maxers and those that figure them out, the majority of players then follow sheep-like in a herd doing what the min/maxers tell them.

And given only 5 skills are available at a time, and weapon swapping is and always has been 'iffy', rotations in ESO are a lot simpler than other games because there are so few buttons to select from.

Few people "think" about how to play most do what they're told, and those that 'think' have precious little to think about the game's mechanics are so simple due to lack of variety.

Isn't that how pretty much every other MMO is though? You just have a cookie cutter build that someone figures out and then that's pretty much all you're allowed to do...At least in this game you have more flexibility and unique-ness with 5 skills than you do with 20.

Majzkatten · July 2015

Omg 5 skills and 2 bars is enuff! I love the combat in this game and i dont wanna "play piano" >.< Only thing is, u should have to aim with all attack abilities maybee...

renton1x1x1 · July 2015

Tankqull · July 2015

Khaldar wrote: »

While I don't always agree with ZOS and have played nearly every MMO in the western world, I will say I actually like the idea of 5 skills and 2 bars. I like that players are forced to think about their build. While it is not that great of a challenge, it does pose limitations and tough decisions. And it beats the 4+ years of playing WoW and having 50 keybinds. Less is more in my opinion.

do not disagree but then the developers must provide a system not containing toggles eating two skill slots to be used at all, a 100 or better 110% functioning bar change and not that measly 60-70% we currently have where you get stuck every second fight in a QB without beeing able to switch without any understandable reason.

in other words the system must work perfectly and not as awefull as in ESO...

Trollwut · July 2015

CMG138 wrote: »

Every other MMO that I've played [...]

I play ESO mainly because it is not every other MMO.

Cogo · July 2015

What is it that some people don't get?

The bar mechanics is the combat system. You can choose whatever you like, but not at the same time. That's the whole idea..........YOU are the skill how good you are. Not buttons....

More buttons would only mean "Win = smash buttons".
No thank you.

There are many things that needs improving in ESO. The combat system and ability bar is not among them.

Duragon_Darko · July 2015

Cogo wrote: »

What is it that some people don't get?

The bar mechanics is the combat system. You can choose whatever you like, but not at the same time. That's the whole idea..........YOU are the skill how good you are. Not buttons....

More buttons would only mean "Win = smash buttons".
No thank you.

There are many things that needs improving in ESO. The combat system and ability bar is not among them.

Agreed. I love the 2 weapon, 10 slot system, forces you to think about which skills you can make work with which other skills. Adds an element of strategy. The last line in the quote is dead on..... so many things need to be fixed, the combat slot system is NOT one of them.

Makkir · July 2015

Yes it is. This feature of the game actually requires you to think about what you want to use before heading into battle.
In fact, from a PvP perspective, this one thing that keeps a check on some players from being excessively OP

Lord_Draevan · July 2015

What I wouldn't mind would be adding 1 passive-only slot, so you'd have that plus 5 active ability and 1 Ultimate ability.
No more though, I do like the current system over the dozens+ you see in other MMOs.

CMG138 · July 2015

Cogo wrote: »

What is it that some people don't get?

The bar mechanics is the combat system. You can choose whatever you like, but not at the same time. That's the whole idea..........YOU are the skill how good you are. Not buttons....

More buttons would only mean "Win = smash buttons".
No thank you.

There are many things that needs improving in ESO. The combat system and ability bar is not among them.

I understand your view on this, but I'll still run into people in PvP who are spamming abilities like steel tornado, or biting jabs, and you'll see that on the forums all the time. I honestly think that it would be nice to have more abilities slotted just so that you have more options. I think that would increase the skill required to play the game because it would be harder to predict what your enemy in PvP would use next. It would also force people to be better with resource management and carefully choose what ability they wanted to use, but they would have the option.

JMadFour · July 2015

I don't think we need more slots.

what NEEDS to happen though, is that Toggles need to persist through Bar Swaps. having to have Bound Armor or Siphoning Strikes on both bars is a waste of a slot, because on one of those bars, you'll never actually use the skill. it's just there because it has to be for the Toggle not to wear off.

JMadFour · July 2015

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

What I wouldn't mind would be adding 1 passive-only slot, so you'd have that plus 5 active ability and 1 Ultimate ability.

this is a good idea. especially for those Toggle skills.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · July 2015

5 slots is not enough for our bars.

Yes-huh.

I like 5.

So there.

DeepBlade · July 2015

I love only having 5 skills. 10 skills is to much and you can make your build have 10 skills that you willl be always using during combat (bar swap) and this games combat mechanichs is much more complex than most MMO's (dodge roll, blocking, bashing, etc). If you want 10 skills you should optimize your build so that your secondary bar would work in combat better.

Xvorg · July 2015

5 skills is more than enough, since it keeps you focused on your role.

10 skills per bar will mean that the 2 H DK tank will be able to get a buff on his weapon not only once, but twice, and his light attacks are gona hurt a lot. On top of that he will be able to ensnare you and knock you back, while increasing his health reg, armor, and Spell Res. Did I mentioned he will be able to reflect projectiles while rooting melee attackers?

Egg_Death · July 2015

Xvorg wrote: »

5 skills is more than enough, since it keeps you focused on your role.

10 skills per bar will mean that the 2 H DK tank will be able to get a buff on his weapon not only once, but twice, and his light attacks are gona hurt a lot. On top of that he will be able to ensnare you and knock you back, while increasing his health reg, armor, and Spell Res. Did I mentioned he will be able to reflect projectiles while rooting melee attackers?

Exactly. If I had 10 skills as a sorc I could have bound armor, healing ward, thundering presence, power surge, and mage light on just to name a few, and I'd still have 5 slots left to have crystal fragments, healing springs, and three AoE/CC/DD abilities depending on the situation. My second bar could then have nearly all destro staff abilities and any complementary abilities from the sorc tree, and I could have immovable or other armor/world actives to make me even more OP.

The result of a bigger bar would inevitably lead to fewer interesting abilities. In the end the same people who have min/maxed the 5-slot builds will do the same for 10-slot builds, so diversity is a false hope there. Everything would need a huge nerf, and even then combat will be much easier since you won't have to work around your build's weaknesses.

I didn't think it could get worse, but we're now beating a dead horse in a zombie thread - beating a dead zombie horse, anyone?

Xvorg · July 2015

I think it is always necessary to point out why, despite the lag and the frustration caused by Z selective mutism, we do like this game (for what it should be)

WyldfireWyrm · July 2015

The only issue I have with skill slots are the toggles. If they could make it so that I didn't have to slot a toggle on both bars, that would be perfect. All they have to do is make it so that a toggled ability on the back bar stays active even if you switch bars and only turns off when you die or toggle it off.

I have no complaints about the number of slots beyond that. Its a great combat system and I agree with others that it limits your skills so you can't be everything all at once. It requires you to actually think about your combat strategy rather than going in guns blazing with a FotM rotation that works on everything. I also feel it makes the PVP a little more evenly matches. It's still true that a skilled PVP player will likely win, but I remember playing PVP in WoW where I had 30+ abilities/rotations to choose from, which virtually guaranteed that the skilled player would win because I couldn't choose which skill to use fast enough. At least now the unskilled or less skilled player might stand a chance since they don't have to think about which of their 30+ abilities to use.

CMG138 · July 2015

Xvorg wrote: »

5 skills is more than enough, since it keeps you focused on your role.

10 skills per bar will mean that the 2 H DK tank will be able to get a buff on his weapon not only once, but twice, and his light attacks are gona hurt a lot. On top of that he will be able to ensnare you and knock you back, while increasing his health reg, armor, and Spell Res. Did I mentioned he will be able to reflect projectiles while rooting melee attackers?

Yea, because everyone has infinite resources. They won't be able to do all of those things in one battle.

Arkhazul · July 2018

The people who say 5x2 bar is enough just can't handle 10 at one. Just give us 10 slots bar and you can play with your 5x2 bar "skillfully" if you want

. And players are spamming one ability already ( Supprise attack, Lethal Arrow, and Crystal fragments), we want more slot to use other skills but you seem too scared to accept the change and you don't want to talk about it. (Sorry for my bad English if something wrong)
http://i.imgur.com/xsrjFkZ.png

Waffennacht · July 2018

My God. How did you find this to Necro??

Necromantic abilities beyond any I've seen before!

MerlinPendragon · July 2018

They should make a sixth slot as a purchasable upgrade in the crown store

lazerlaz · July 2018

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The game offers the most flexibility of any other AAA MMO out there. That means that you control your character's abilities in combat. Even GW2 which has a similar wep swap ability pigeon holes you into certain abilities. The 5 spots per bar is a way to make you think about how you want to play your character. You can't be good at everything all the time. 10 slots ensures that.

Exactly, 5 is fine.

For PVP it comes down to out play and think you opponent.

Only the weak and narrow minded struggle with build diversity and 10 skills.

Funny how there are so many "I want it all" perspectives out there.

As if it's not achievable and broken already with certain classes. Heal, tank, and dps in PVP all wrapped up into one.

Tetrafy · July 2018

Lord Xanhorn wrote: »

The game offers the most flexibility of any other AAA MMO out there. That means that you control your character's abilities in combat. Even GW2 which has a similar wep swap ability pigeon holes you into certain abilities. The 5 spots per bar is a way to make you think about how you want to play your character. You can't be good at everything all the time. 10 slots ensures that.

Youve never played ffxiv.

Artim_X · July 2018

These necromancers need to be stopped! However, if 10 skill slots aren't enough you could always play a sorc and use overload as a utility bar.

Raraaku · July 2018

Arkhazul wrote: »

The people who say 5x2 bar is enough just can't handle 10 at one. Just give us 10 slots bar and you can play with your 5x2 bar "skillfully" if you want . And players are spamming one ability already ( Supprise attack, Lethal Arrow, and Crystal fragments), we want more slot to use other skills but you seem too scared to accept the change and you don't want to talk about it. (Sorry for my bad English if something wrong)
http://i.imgur.com/xsrjFkZ.png

lol, I think you're mistaking a cheap spammable skill for weaving purposes with that spammable skill being the sole source of DPS. That is not the case at all, those skills (although I personally wouldn't consider crystal frags or lethal arrow as spammable) are there to boost DPS with LA weaving and to fill the 2-4 seconds of downtime in your rotation until you need to reapply your DoTs.

Troll bait and necroing all in one post, I'm impressed.

ZOS_AlexL · July 2018

Greetings everyone,

Since this thread has been inactive for 3 years until yesterday, we've decided to close it.

Thanks for your understanding!

- AlexL