ESO on consoles without Add-Ons
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676794
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Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
Pretty much this.
Most forum-goers in WoW talk about raiding, but less than 5% of people playing that game actually do raids. Forums are not indicative of the playerbase as a whole.
That's just not true. Most players in WoW do raids due to the LFR tool.
And again: you can play ESO without addons but you limit yourself. If you are satiesfied with 50% potential, okay. I am not and that's why I use at least an addon for combat numbers.Edited by Seraphyel on March 13, 2015 9:15AM0 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
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Common knowledge? Where is there a proof of this common Knowledge you speak of? Who are the people claiming this? Who has made studies about the type of population that visit gaming forums? Were is the study about the population that visits these forums? Why are you talking about WOW? this isn't wow! it's ESO! both games have nothing do do with each other and raiding here is much much more easier which is why it's accessible to many more people including most of the casual players that aren't shy enough to find a casual guild with a decent amount of players which is the majority of them.
So, please, stop speaking of numbers that you can't prove and have not a single clue about and using them to support your selfish claims.
Edit: Oh and let's not deviate the subject here which is that a majority of people that care enough to speak find the UI lacking a lot of elements to be deemed a good one and the only reason you have to deny them is "I don't need them so too bad for you, i don't think you should get them". Let's not deviate from the fact that some people are just selfish enough to care enough about denying other people something that would make the game more enjoyable for them and that 99% of the other MMO makers deemed important enough to implement in their games.
Thanks.
I'm not deviating from the subject. I'm responding to the argument that these forums represent the majority of the playerbase (they don't) and that the majority of players are obsessively aiming their characters towards min/maxing and endgame (they aren't).
I'm well aware this isn't WoW. I simply cited the big kid on the block because they have the largest population sample to choose from. But it's been evident from day one that a very small percentage of players in ESO actually do things like trials or DSA. That's not a reason to not have that content, but it's a statement of fact about who is actually playing the game.
But you're right. Let's focus on the subject at hand:
This game is not unplayable without add-ons. I've cleared the vast majority of that endgame content without ever using an add-on, and I'm not about to start using them. I like a minimal UI. Lots of players do. Min/maxers are not, and will never be, the majority.----
Murray?0 -
Divinius✭✭✭✭✭
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Absolutely agreed that forum-goers likely only represent a small portion of the playerbase.nerevarine1138 wrote: »I'm not deviating from the subject. I'm responding to the argument that these forums represent the majority of the playerbase (they don't) and that the majority of players are obsessively aiming their characters towards min/maxing and endgame (they aren't).
Also agreed that the majority of players are very likely NOT "obsessively aiming their characters towards min/maxing."
But I'm not sure I'd agree with your previous (not directly quoted above) statements that the vast majority of players do not use and rely on addons at all. ESOUI download numbers would seem to indicate that at least some of the QoL addons are insanely popular. But without statistics from someone that could actually know (like ZOS), the percentage of players that use addons could be anyone's guess.
Again, agreed that min/maxers are likely not the majority of players. But this is where these thread always seem to devolve into face-palm inducingly frustrating arguments.nerevarine1138 wrote: »This game is not unplayable without add-ons. I've cleared the vast majority of that endgame content without ever using an add-on, and I'm not about to start using them. I like a minimal UI. Lots of players do. Min/maxers are not, and will never be, the majority.
The min/maxxers say that "everyone uses addons for the DPS meters" and the anti-addon crowd counters with "you don't need addons".
No, everyone does not use DPS meters. I have 24 addons installed, some of which I wouldn't want to play the game without. Not a single one of them tells me my DPS, or gives me any combat info, because I'm a casual that only plays the game with my brother and fiancee, and I don't care (right now) about trying to max my DPS, because we have yet to hit any content that we can't clear.
I use a ton of addons, but they are all QoL things that just give me more info when in menus. Other than small numbers overlayed inside my health/magicka/stamina bars, my normal in-game UI doesn't look much different. It's virtually as minimalistic as the stock UI.
Which brings me to my next point. Not wanting to use DPS meters does not equate to not wanting to use addons. People that argue that "no one needs DPS meters" can't use that to automatically correlate to "no one needs addons." And while I'll grant that no one actually "needs" addons, there are a large number of them that are VERY convenient and greatly improve the otherwise limited UI, that are NOT DPS meters.
And "wanting a minimal UI" is not a reason to avoid addons. If you want to avoid addons, that's fine. Your prerogative. But you can maintain a minimal UI (and even get a more minimal one) and still use a ton of addons.
{Edited for typos}Edited by Divinius on March 13, 2015 12:25PM1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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That's just not true. Most players in WoW do raids due to the LFR tool.
And again: you can play ESO without addons but you limit yourself. If you are satiesfied with 50% potential, okay. I am not and that's why I use at least an addon for combat numbers.
The numbers @nerevarine1138 was touting were from before the raid-finder was created. It was found that less than 5% of the total player base for WoW were actively completing the upper tier raids during the Vanilla / BC era. Making the raid content was a huge undertaking and a main focus of Blizzard's resources, and the vast majority of players never even stepped into them.
"The culmination of the PvE endgame is the 25 player raids. Prior to WLK, only a few players got there; for example, only about half the number of players who killed a boss in Karazhan ever killed a 25 player boss, and less than 5% defeated the final boss of the expansion (Kil'Jaeden). In vanilla WoW, less than 2% of all players ever entered Naxxramas (the original version)." - taken from wowwiki.com
This was according to Blizzard's internal metrics. It is not a number that he made up; it used to be fairly common knowledge among mainstream MMO players. He did mention that this was part of the reason that the raid-finder tool was created, which is true.
Most players in WoW do raids now, and they do an incredibly dumbed down version of the actual raids where most mechanics can be entirely ignored and everybody still gets a trophy. That was their fix; just make it stupidly easy so even the lowest common denominator can still win. I'm not sure that's a route I'd like to see ESO go down, lol.
Either way, it was just an analogy, and I felt compelled to chime in as it was an analogy trying to reiterate my own sentiment, which still stands: You simply cannot assume that the opinion of the forum-going community is indicative of how the actual player base feels. It's simply too small of a sample size to trust the data.
With all that said, I am actually all for addons and even integrating some of the more used addon features into game. More than that, I'd like to see at least most of the missing UI functionality (stats, buff-tracking, actual health numbers / percentages, etc) implemented in-game (off by default, w/ an option to toggle).
I agree that you cannot possibly play this game at your full potential w/out some addons, due to the lack of information from the default UI. That's just a fact.
Edited by Varicite on March 13, 2015 1:23PM1 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭Most players in WoW do raids now, and they do an incredibly dumbed down version of the actual raids where most mechanics can be entirely ignored and everybody still gets a trophy. That was their fix; just make it stupidly easy so even the lowest common denominator can still win. I'm not sure that's a route I'd like to see ESO go down, lol.
Either way, it was just an analogy, and I felt compelled to chime in as it was an analogy trying to reiterate my own sentiment, which still stands: You simply cannot assume that the opinion of the forum-going community is indicative of how the actual player base feels. It's simply too small of a sample size to trust the data.
With all that said, I am actually all for addons and even integrating some of the more used addon features into game. More than that, I'd like to see at least most of the missing UI functionality (stats, buff-tracking, actual health numbers / percentages, etc) implemented in-game (off by default, w/ an option to toggle).
I agree that you cannot possibly play this game at your full potential w/out some addons, due to the lack of information from the default UI. That's just a fact.
I hate LFR. That's the worst thing Blizzard ever brought into WoW but that's another story.
The thing is: forum doesn't represent the "masses", but it can represent valuable playerbases. If ESO would have had success in it's launch / recent form, there would be more players, no model change and much more things. There are indicators that ESO failed in many parts due to its decreasing population and so on. People in the forums keep saying that because it's true - maybe not for the full amount they are mentioning, but for a percentage of that.
I agree with the lower part of your post.
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Kragorn✭✭✭✭✭
I can see you're content with not playing to your full potential due to lack of detailed information .. lol "massive glow" is all you need to know about a debuff, you serious? .. and threat is something you can leave to the tank, really?ginger_josh.1b16_ESO wrote: »@Kragon,
Any such effects you need to be aware of as either healer looking out for vital effects or any other role manages such buffs, can be seen visually on the character. Tiny boxes next to healths bars Vs a massive glow around a weapon or surrounding a character? Ill take the glows any day. Healing in pvp you can tell when you need to dispell fire siege weapon DoT's because PEOPLE WILL BE ON FIRE.
That's fine, some of us prefer to play the best we can and the game out of the box doesn't allow for that.Edited by Kragorn on March 13, 2015 4:00PM0 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭I could play with closed eyes, but I choose to open them whilst playing. Why? Mhm, because I want to know what's happening. Same goes with addons.
Without an addon for numbers, you literally no NOTHING. You can't deny that. You don't know if you critically hit, if the target blocked your skill, if your skill was enhanced by a buff or something like that and so on.
To play without combat numbers is like playing with one eye open and the other eye closed.0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Darkonflare15 wrote: »Have I uses add ons before? Yes
Do I need add ons to enjoy the game? No
What have I use add ons on for? Convenience
Why do I do not need add ons? I am not a min- maxer or pvp expert.
Am I missing anything? No because I play the game fine without all of the clutter and add on related problems.
So will I have a problem switching over to consoles? No since I can enjoy the game with out these non necessities.
Will the consoles suffer because of no add ons? Hardly unlikely since they are use to it and we do not know all of the changes to the UI and it probably has a lot things that people need add ons 4.
I use addons not for min/max but for convenience. I think it's amusing that certain people (their name isn't even worth mentioning) say they want to play a game not do math. Yet the default UI menu is an exercise in time wasting frustration. I'm glad I don't need a separate spreadsheet to keep track of which items I need for each recipe, I have an addon that let's me track it, same for alchemical ingredients and keeping track of my research. It's just baffling that people make addons seem like they create extra work, when in fact they actually help keep things organized and save time on trivial tasks. But those same people frequently come onto the forums and never once criticize anything about this game or offer ways to improve it, but instead act as though it's absolutely perfect in every way and spend their time chastising people who only want to make it better.Edited by eventide03b14a_ESO on March 13, 2015 4:11PM:trollin:0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This game is being made for consoles so it can be sold to the rental stores not a bunch of individual sales. How many of the console players are going to make it to endgame? I would assume not very many at all. AKA there is no need for addons when you are only renting it for a week or so.
I'm pretty sure this isn't going to be a rental game. How would that even work?
It's interesting you say that because my experience has been that anytime someone has suggested an addon to solve a problem I have never seen anyone confused by it. Addons actually seem to be quite the norm in the game not this rare thing that most people never use.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
It's fairly common knowledge. There are numerous sources about WoW's raiding frequency, and Blizzard actually mentioned that the reason behind the creation of Raid Finder was that they wanted more than a tiny fraction of their players to experience raid content. But I was just citing them as a popular example.
I'm not saying this is a good or a bad thing. But most players don't focus on endgame content. Most players aren't "hardcore". Most players are the dreaded "casuals" who play games for fun and don't even know that the forums exist, much less that some users are enraged over things like UI design.
You have admitted many, many, many, times in multiple threads that you don't use addons. Yet you come here seemingly this expert on addons and who uses them and for what purpose. I don't use addons for min/max endgame I roolz pew pew look at me mom uberness. I use them mostly for utility and convenience. I suggest you actually try some of the these very well created functional addons for yourself before you comment on something you know nothing about. And please stop citing anecdotes as though they are facts. If you have actual numbers for any of these claims please provide some actual links.nerevarine1138 wrote: »
I'm not deviating from the subject. I'm responding to the argument that these forums represent the majority of the playerbase (they don't) and that the majority of players are obsessively aiming their characters towards min/maxing and endgame (they aren't).
I'm well aware this isn't WoW. I simply cited the big kid on the block because they have the largest population sample to choose from. But it's been evident from day one that a very small percentage of players in ESO actually do things like trials or DSA. That's not a reason to not have that content, but it's a statement of fact about who is actually playing the game.
But you're right. Let's focus on the subject at hand:
This game is not unplayable without add-ons. I've cleared the vast majority of that endgame content without ever using an add-on, and I'm not about to start using them. I like a minimal UI. Lots of players do. Min/maxers are not, and will never be, the majority.
Edited by eventide03b14a_ESO on March 13, 2015 4:24PM:trollin:0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
I'm not deviating from the subject. I'm responding to the argument that these forums represent the majority of the playerbase (they don't) and that the majority of players are obsessively aiming their characters towards min/maxing and endgame (they aren't).
You, once again, have no clue if what you say is true. Me and most the people I play with are selling min/max gear at high prices (40K and more) every day, I'm talking Healer / Footman jewelry, Adroitness gear, Dreugh Knight, martial knowledge. Demand has never been higher, which suggests that a large part of the community at end game is min/maxing. Just ask the leaders of popular VR trading guilds.nerevarine1138 wrote: »I'm well aware this isn't WoW. I simply cited the big kid on the block because they have the largest population sample to choose from. But it's been evident from day one that a very small percentage of players in ESO actually do things like trials or DSA. That's not a reason to not have that content, but it's a statement of fact about who is actually playing the game.
No it's not. Once again you have no source, nothing to back that up. On the contrary, I've never seen a game where so many casuals engage in end game content with such ease, especially after the nerfs of Zenimax and from the popularity of the DK builds we have posted, I'd say a great deal of people seem to be engaging in such content, a proof of this is the fact many players complained because they where getting dozens of notifications from people who completed trials, which means people where actually clearing the content. So once again you state (probably false) opinions as facts.nerevarine1138 wrote: »But you're right. Let's focus on the subject at hand:
This game is not unplayable without add-ons. I've cleared the vast majority of that endgame content without ever using an add-on, and I'm not about to start using them. I like a minimal UI. Lots of players do. Min/maxers are not, and will never be, the majority.
The fact you cleared the vast majority of that end game content without an addon means nothing since you play in a group of people that probably where using addons and since you can't have any clue as to what your DPS is, it is possible/very likely (since I haven't heard of anyone installing FTC and saying: OMG my DPS is great) they where carrying you, so addons helped you complete all that end game content even if they where in other player's UI's.
As for the game being unplayable without addons, it's a matter of personal opinion and in MY opinion and the opinion of MANY others, the game is unplayable without addons, I would quit right now and delete the game if I couldn't use addons, hence, this game will be unplayable for many console users because they will not like the UI.
You like a minimal UI, many players don't and all the UI elements people want to add are optional which means that just because you don't like it, you want to force your taste on to other people. As for your last phrase, I'd like to say: People who like the stock UI, are not, and will never be, the majority.Edited by TehMagnus on March 13, 2015 6:38PM0 -
ItsRejectz✭✭✭✭✭I feel sorry for all the fresh console players that come to these forums looking for help and are instead met by all these pc elitest morons.Xbox EU - GT: o69 Woody 69o
VR16 Sorc: Vlad V Impaler
VR16 Sorc: Yes it's Woody
VR16 NB: Prince of Wallachia
VR16 Templar: Sir Lancelot the Brave
VR16 DK: I'm Better Than You0 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »
We'll ignore that being a terrible analogy and focus on this:
The OP claimed that the game is unplayable without addons. I play the game without addons (as do most players). The OP is objectively wrong.
No, most players play with addons. lol.Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.0 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭ItsRejectz wrote: »I feel sorry for all the fresh console players that come to these forums looking for help and are instead met by all these pc elitest morons.
To use mathematics or simple numbers doesn't make you an elitist moron, it makes you a player that knows what's happening.0 -
Ashigaru✭✭✭✭
Have you tried ESO with the rift? i have one and have been debating on trying to set it up for ESO it is awesome in Elite Dangerous by the wayTonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »
Meh we have already all of that
* on the shield you can connect mouse+ keyboard if you want....
MY photoshop skills are akward.......
and Btw we have even the oculus so no big point here
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Ashigaru✭✭✭✭ginger_josh.1b16_ESO wrote: »@Kragon,
Any such effects you need to be aware of as either healer looking out for vital effects or any other role manages such buffs, can be seen visually on the character. Tiny boxes next to healths bars Vs a massive glow around a weapon or surrounding a character? Ill take the glows any day. Healing in pvp you can tell when you need to dispell fire siege weapon DoT's because PEOPLE WILL BE ON FIRE.
I'm just going to assume people are used to having all the information handed to them so easily like in a WoW raid where you just stare at small boxes boxes through entire fights. For me the group content in ESO is much more engaging because im actually able to watch and even take part in the combat during my supportive roles.
As for threat? i can trust a tank to use a taunt ability on more important enemies. It's really only dps getting hit by avoidable attacks which is a problem for me but that exists in any MMO.
And actually damage done values are really not needed. Over the years people have just gotten to a point where they THINK an overall damage / healing done / taken per second is vital, but we just do not need such things. Bottom line is, habbits from other MMO's have ruined other peoples experience with ESO because they dont get all the spoonfeeding they are used to.
Again, all the info is there but just in a different form of what people are used to seeing. If an addon is required to reveal it, then this may not be the best game for those people to be playing or maybe they just need some time to adapt.
Over the years? I played EQ from the start for little over 11 years and we ALWAYS did this stuff, we didnt have addons so we had to figure out ways to calculate the stuff but it has ALWAYS been in mmo's if you were an rp'r or a wedding dress wearer i could see how it wouldn't be noticed but it has always been around the mmo scene from the start.0 -
Gix✭✭✭✭
Mentioning FFIV (I think you meant FFXIV) and describing its UI with the words "ease of use" does not help your argument one bit.
Every other MMO on the market at the moment RIft, SWTOR, WOW, FFIV, Wildstar, have comon UI elements and ease of use that ESO doesn't have, so you can consider ESO is substandard since it doesn't meet the standards that everybody else is using. You can argue it's different, it's "minimalistic" (worst excuse ever) but the fact is it's not as polished, customizable and functional as the UIs of most if not all popular MMOs on the market. This is not based on my experience, it's based on facts.
Here's a quick and easy exercise you can do:
Play vanilla WoW and open your (full) inventory. For the sake of the argument I'll even allow you to use the hot-key that opens all your bags at once (because opening a single backpack is such a good design /sarcasm); do the same with FFXIV while you're at it. Now open your (full) inventory in vanilla ESO.
QUICK! Go through your mess and delete the cheapest item you're carrying! Have fun going through your items one by one with your "standard UI".
Lets not forget that FFXIV keeps loot and equipment on two separate/unrelated UIs... which hold multiple pages that aren't filtered by category.
You wouldn't know a good UI if it'd hit you in a face.
We can agree on one thing, though: ESO's UI is not polished.0
