How can a Sorc kill a DK in 1.6?

david.haypreub18_ESO

Let me be clear: I'm not whining here; I'm actually looking to prepare my Sorc for 1.6, and wondering what skills I'm going to need. The game is changing significantly, but I find that my Sorc on live (and in fact every character I play on live) has a tough time with the archetypal DK. The combination of Scales, Talons, Whip, Standard and Batswarm usually proves too much for my newbie Sorc (lvl 49) to take, even on Blackwater. So here I'm trying to learn to play, and trying to figure out what skills I should be sure to have once 1.6 hits. So how do I do it? How do I, as a magicka-Sorc, take down a DK?

Right now I am using Destro/Resto. I am stacking Hardened Ward and either healing ward or Harness magicka as defence. I use Velocious Curse and Mage's Fury, but that seems just to tickle a DK. Streak can be helpful, and Crushing Shock before I see the wings. Heavy attacks with my lightning Destro staff do ok damage. I've started to use Daedric Mines, but the jury is still out on them for me so far. But what normally happens is that I burn into the DK, get health down a bit, often below 50%, and then the DK heals, shield charges, Talons, whips, and game over.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Rydik

Forget about DK in 1.6, be ready for Templar=D

technohic

Rydik wrote: »

Forget about DK in 1.6, be ready for Templar=D

I've seen this a lot, but I have to ask. Why? Jeebus beam? Just interrupt it.

david.haypreub18_ESO

technohic wrote: »

Rydik wrote: »

Forget about DK in 1.6, be ready for Templar=D

I've seen this a lot, but I have to ask. Why? Jeebus beam? Just interrupt it.

Ditto. They have taken away as much from the Templar as they've given (the interruptible Jesus beam is nice, and I love the change to Power of the Light and the fact that Biting Jabs has a stamina morph... but the nerfs to restoring aura and the addition of CC immunity in Jabs and Blazing Spear really takes a lot of the oomph out of these changes). The big difference I think is the Templars now totally lack any AoE CC. Templars can't root-spam me. So I am still far more worried about DKs than Templars.

Tankqull

against a DK you´ll need defensive stance to make use of frag-pingpong, deadric mines and a bolt escape morph to keep him out of melee range. but ittl be a attrition fight in all cases wich is severly hindered by the changes to expert mage

Rydik wrote: »

Forget about DK in 1.6, be ready for Templar=D

for a sorc templars are "no problem" as they do not perma negate your primary dmg source.

BEZDNA

i have the opposite question - how can DK beat a shield stacking bolt escaping sorc in 1.6?

Tankqull

BEZDNA wrote: »

i have the opposite question - how can DK can beat a shield stacking bolt escaping sorc in 1.6?

by forcing him to consume his stamina.
Bolt escape is a 15m port every charge has a 22m range+cc component which the sorc needs to block + followed up by a root guess who is allways in favor? the moment his stam is consumed the sorc is cake.

Bashev

BEZDNA wrote: »

i have the opposite question - how can DK beat a shield stacking bolt escaping sorc in 1.6?

Touche!

david.haypreub18_ESO

Tankqull wrote: »

against a DK you´ll need defensive stance to make use of frag-pingpong, deadric mines and a bolt escape morph to keep him out of melee range. but ittl be a attrition fight in all cases wich is severly hindered by the changes to expert mage

I'm destroy/resto right now... do I have any chance if I don't want to go Sword and Board?

Erock25

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

against a DK you´ll need defensive stance to make use of frag-pingpong, deadric mines and a bolt escape morph to keep him out of melee range. but ittl be a attrition fight in all cases wich is severly hindered by the changes to expert mage

I'm destroy/resto right now... do I have any chance if I don't want to go Sword and Board?

Defensive Posture is tough for me to use as a magicka based Sorc in 1.6. Stamina is at a higher premium now.

Snit

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I'm destroy/resto right now... do I have any chance if I don't want to go Sword and Board?

Only if the DK isn't particularly good at 1v1. If you don't want to go S&B, then choose option B: run. You can usually get away. It doesn't make sense to engage in that fight if you're not specced in a way to give you a shot.

Tankqull

Snit wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I'm destroy/resto right now... do I have any chance if I don't want to go Sword and Board?

Only if the DK isn't particularly good at 1v1. If you don't want to go S&B, then choose option B: run. You can usually get away. It doesn't make sense to engage in that fight if you're not specced in a way to give you a shot.

this.
you are a sorc with the luck to allways be able to chose your fights. make proper use of that advantage.
dk´s are no even footed opponents when using destro staffs. [even though some exeptional sorcs still made it work like "legendary mage"]

Philthyorc

Can't speak for 1.6 yet, cuz I need to do more testing before I figure out how to "counter" Dk's but surprisingly enough my aoe build in live works pretty well against them.

I usually pop crit surge then alternate, encasing rune and elemental wall, this usually forces him to use Stam to break the root, and then He has to get out of the fire ( this works especially well against vamps)

So after I play that game for a bit I continue to Keep the floor on fire, then mix in streak for the cc and to keep him off balance, I try to get behind him to cast spells n such while he can't see me, cuz sometimes they lose track of the fire on the ground if they don't see u cast it. Keep in mind I'm also keeping my shields up and popping a tripot if needed.

Finally at this point most dk's have used a a good chunk of thier Stam, so if I see them stating to stay in my roots I then drop my Atro on their heads... Keep em cc'd and the floor on fire and this is usually enough to kill them... Or they ironically enough run from me

Not a traditional sorc build, but man it's nice to not have to worry about flappy wings. I hope I can make this work somehow in 1.6 , but I'm conflicted ... We'll see I guess hope this helps.

rfennell_ESO

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Let me be clear: I'm not whining here; I'm actually looking to prepare my Sorc for 1.6, and wondering what skills I'm going to need. The game is changing significantly, but I find that my Sorc on live (and in fact every character I play on live) has a tough time with the archetypal DK. The combination of Scales, Talons, Whip, Standard and Batswarm usually proves too much for my newbie Sorc (lvl 49) to take, even on Blackwater. So here I'm trying to learn to play, and trying to figure out what skills I should be sure to have once 1.6 hits. So how do I do it? How do I, as a magicka-Sorc, take down a DK?

Right now I am using Destro/Resto. I am stacking Hardened Ward and either healing ward or Harness magicka as defence. I use Velocious Curse and Mage's Fury, but that seems just to tickle a DK. Streak can be helpful, and Crushing Shock before I see the wings. Heavy attacks with my lightning Destro staff do ok damage. I've started to use Daedric Mines, but the jury is still out on them for me so far. But what normally happens is that I burn into the DK, get health down a bit, often below 50%, and then the DK heals, shield charges, Talons, whips, and game over.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Fight near cliffs, hope dk falls off and dies.

Yuke

Daedric Mines is "I Win" against a melee DK. Especially with 1.6.

ToRelax

Please, do not just all throw assumptions about the other classes strengths together.

I've tested all classes on the PTS as ranged casters (as that is how I like to play).

I think, Templars have the most well rounded toolkit now for this purpose, with Blazing Shield againt melee, major defile (healing debuff) with Dark Flare, DoT and snare in Vampire's Bane, Eclipse as a reflect when needed and of course Radiant Destruction to execute.
NBs and DKs will encounter heavy problems against several melee attackers, while NBs have at least cloak and shadow image to kite. Imo for open world, DKs will be in the worst place if played as a ranged caster for open world - in duels you have Fossilze, wich is very powerful now.

Anyway, for the Sorc, he can probably be the strongest magicka class if played well (as melee magicka got some pretty big nerfs).
Hardened Ward as a magicka based shield already gives a huge advantage over other classes magicka builds as you have to spend less attribute points / enchants on health and still get a stronger shield. Unlike Blazing Shield, you need more tools to deal with melee attackers though, I recommend Deadric Minefield, wich can do a great lot of damage now if the enemy "eats" them, and of course Bolt Escape.
To actually kill someone, you will need burst damage (or the enemy was squishy), it is extremely hard to run out of your main resource (magicka for you I guess) with 3 cost reduction glyphs compared to 1.5.
If you don't kill them with your burst, they will just recover and go on as if nothing happened.
To do burst damage, you can combine some of those skills:

- Entropy (either morph) - use it to proc the Might of the Guild passive wich grants the Empower buff, to strengthen your next attack by 20%.
- Inevitable Detonation - amazing if you can get it off, use for example Daedric Minefield and Ball of Lightning to get in a save enough position if needed. It needs however, some time to get the required alliance rank to even unlock the skill.
- Velocious Curse - it has been buffed quite a bit and is maybe the main reason Sorcerer burst is considered pretty deadly in 1.6. If you cast it right after Inevitable Detonation, they'll explode pretty much at the same time, potentionally dealing massive, unreflectable damage.
- Crystal Fragments - the damage is even higher when they proc the instant cast now, even higher with using Entropy before. You can also use Entropy to proc it, then eventually use the next seconds to prepare a burst with the other mentioned skills, maybe use entropy again for the buff and fire the Fragments. However, it is reflectable, be careful with it.
- For that reason, you may want to try out the Defensive Posture, the reflect skill from the sword and shield skill line. The Clannfear might be a decent enough heal if you want to use Destruction Staff. Might, I don't think it will be very reliable. Also the stamina drain will be heavy on your resources as you will probably have less stamina in 1.6. Personally, I will use Destro/Resto.
- Endless Fury. I don't have this in my current setup for 1.6 either, but it can synergize well, as this skill, too, can be casted before the actual burst like the Curse, thus leaving you doing instant damage (like Fragments) when you want the burst to go off.
- Crushing Shock is still very good, if you really don't want a ranged interrupt, you can use Force Pulse insted of course. What it does for me, is hold pressure at the enemy, so they can't control the fight thus protect me and make me able to finish them off. Also, it is good to have an instant cast damage ability wich you can weave after getting off your burst because it is not the usual that your opponent just dies in one second, but it is much more likely to lead to his death if you keep the pressure on in the few seconds that matter.

Ultimates:
- Meteor. It is reflectable. But it has a nice cc part and amazing damage, and again, is not instant. You can cast right before the burst to stack up more damage. Ice Comet would be preferable for 1v1, Shooting Star for greater battles I'd say.
- Storm Atronach. Because it's not reflectable. But it does not hit just as hard and you can cc it, thus negating your area denial.
- Soul Assault. I rarely use it but I know players who use it uite effectively and I believe it can be very powerful if you use it right after your burst. It is purgable and interruptable.

This is what I can tell you, decide yourself wether or how to use that info. Also note that most of it was gathered through dueling and theorycrafting, no one can be sure how the game will evolve in PvP once 1.6 hits live.

Edit: corrected some typos - if you find more you can have them, to lazy to read it all again.

olsborg

Given time, and enough cp points, players aint gonna be able to kill other players 1v1, unless one of them are extremely bad at playing their class. Imo, CP System is going to ruin small scale pvp.

TheMachineKiller

olsborg wrote: »

Given time, and enough cp points, players aint gonna be able to kill other players 1v1, unless one of them are extremely bad at playing their class. Imo, CP System is going to ruin small scale pvp.

Um, have you dueled anyone in Cyrodil on pts? Plenty of killing going on...

ToRelax

olsborg wrote: »

Given time, and enough cp points, players aint gonna be able to kill other players 1v1, unless one of them are extremely bad at playing their class. Imo, CP System is going to ruin small scale pvp.

Well that is true as well and I hope CP balance will get adjusted soon.
Otherwise I'll probably leave in a few months wich would be a shame, I love the combat in ESO .

scottub17_ESO17

olsborg wrote: »

Given time, and enough cp points, players aint gonna be able to kill other players 1v1, unless one of them are extremely bad at playing their class. Imo, CP System is going to ruin small scale pvp.

I think high CP actually makes fights faster for the most part. The damage output of some builds is insane with high CP.

ToRelax

scottub17_ESO17 wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Given time, and enough cp points, players aint gonna be able to kill other players 1v1, unless one of them are extremely bad at playing their class. Imo, CP System is going to ruin small scale pvp.

I think high CP actually makes fights faster for the most part. The damage output of some builds is insane with high CP.

At the beginning that is possible. "Enough" can indeed be an amount of 2000 and more CP, we simply cant test that really good. However, we can see on PTS that duels between players with 3600 CP usually take much longer than those between players with 70-150 CP.
In any case is the balance with higher amounts of CP still severly flawed and must be adressed before some people have enough CP to be literally unkillable.

Vis

Snit wrote: »

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

I'm destroy/resto right now... do I have any chance if I don't want to go Sword and Board?

Only if the DK isn't particularly good at 1v1. If you don't want to go S&B, then choose option B: run. You can usually get away. It doesn't make sense to engage in that fight if you're not specced in a way to give you a shot.

That is my philosophy for DKs that spam scales. Why bother against an IWin button? Just bolt away knowing he's at least never going to kill you.

Gargragrond

Vis wrote: »

That is my philosophy for DKs that spam scales. Why bother against an IWin button? Just bolt away knowing he's at least never going to kill you.

So, you are saying that dk can never kill you - you either kill him or bolt away. How is that dk IWin button working exactly?

Valnas

if your purely dueling you have a few cc / burst options but for AvA world play ...

i have harness mag + immov/praye w/ heavy resto and a disease enchant. I try to sustain full resources through their burst and not get cc'd, repostion w/ streak. I know people are down on harness but, it's a 280 cast for like 1/2/320 mag back + resto returns and it eats (i'm vamp) the bad dmg. If your not a vamp, try mutagen/rapid or quick siphon or something class based that economical sustain. Ele drain in 1.6 if you are ele dot heavy (lighning form/splash/destro).

If i saw them flap a lot (needlessly) i go offensive when they stop w/ crushing shock/frag on my destro. if they flap/block it's fire rings as an execute or back to sustain if they got off enough clean GDB's or popped an ult.

Sheuib

As some others have stated I have always used AOE on DKs and it has been pretty effective.

Dracane

Gargragrond wrote: »

So, you are saying that dk can never kill you - you either kill him or bolt away. How is that dk IWin button working exactly?

If your enemy surrenders (blinking or running way means surrender), you win. Simple as that.
If your enemy runs away, he admits, that you are too strong and this is a victory for you.

Ryuho

First of all, u wont see many of light armor magicka based tank DKs.. those times are over with 1.6.x... But u will see a lot of stam based DKs, especially 2H/bow DKs.. How to kill such guy? Well, rly esy, just use pokemons

Mines -> pokemons -> curse -> heavy att and inst crystal

Snit

Gargragrond wrote: »

So, you are saying that dk can never kill you - you either kill him or bolt away. How is that dk IWin button working exactly?

That's not how it works. It's the same factor that determines a lot of small PvP fights -- who noticed the other guy first. If the DK has initiative and gets on you with Talons and a perhaps some other crowd control, the odds are pretty good that you're going to get burst down.

If the sorc has initiative, or if both parties see each other from >30m away, and the sorc isn't a Sword and Board spec, they should probably run. DK vs Staff Sorc is an awful matchup, and the sorc can usually flee it. It's still far from certain, though, particularly if the DK has friends. There are some pretty mobile specs out there that do not rely on bolt escape. Also, horses are a thing.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

Lightning splash.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Ryuho wrote: »

First of all, u wont see many of light armor magicka based tank DKs.. those times are over with 1.6.x... But u will see a lot of stam based DKs, especially 2H/bow DKs.. How to kill such guy? Well, rly esy, just use pokemons

Mines -> pokemons -> curse -> heavy att and inst crystal

Pokemons?

Derra

Tankqull wrote: »

against a DK you´ll need defensive stance to make use of frag-pingpong, deadric mines and a bolt escape morph to keep him out of melee range. but ittl be a attrition fight in all cases wich is severly hindered by the changes to expert mage

Rydik wrote: »

Forget about DK in 1.6, be ready for Templar=D

for a sorc templars are "no problem" as they do not perma negate your primary dmg source.

You won´t have enough stamina to use defensive stance and cc break constantly on a pure magica sorc in 1.6 while also stacking enough spelldmg to actually do dmg.