Please implement "Learning" Mode for Trials and Veteran Dungeons

onlinegamer1

Magdalina wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

I don't see any issue with having tuned-down versions of the trials/vet DSA that scale loot rewards accordingly to invite participation from a wider percentage of the population. It's fun content that everyone should be able to at least experience. Just don't nerf it to the ground in order to do so.

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.

No, there isn't.

Vet DSA - impossible for casuals
Normal DSA - impossible for casuals

Again, NOTHING will change for Normal or Vet (insert content here). It would only be an ADDITION of a 3rd setting, "Casual", which would severely limit loot and XP (like, Loot is VR1, and XP is 10% of normal).

Joy_Division

Reasons why a "casual mode" is more complicated than you think:

1. Our last content release was in, what, October or November? It's been so long I can't even remember. The next once isn't scheduled until after the console release (June) dies down. What exactly am I getting for my sub fee?

2. It will segregate the player base because "casuals" will be way too comfortable with bad habits and be literally incapable of playing with even average players. When I hit VR1 I thought I had the game all figured out because I was able to smoke through all the regular dungeons. Entered VR Spindlecluth and did nothing but wipe for an entire afternoon. All from bad habits formed because players didn't need to block, dodge, DPS effectively, etc once they got to level 30. As it is half the people I run with are incapable of killing the Spawn of Mephala in Fungal Grotto without using the Bridge exploit because they have become too reliant on it...

3. If loot and XP is 10% of normal, how will these "casual" players meaningfully progress in a game that already has a notoriously long "grind"? So not only will these casuals be comfortable with bad habits but they aren't even getting the meaningful progression necessary if they even want to do the normal versions of the content?

onlinegamer1

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reasons why a "casual mode" is more complicated than you think:

1. Our last content release was in, what, October or November? It's been so long I can't even remember. The next once isn't scheduled until after the console release (June) dies down. What exactly am I getting for my sub fee?

2. It will segregate the player base because "casuals" will be way too comfortable with bad habits and be literally incapable of playing with even average players. When I hit VR1 I thought I had the game all figured out because I was able to smoke through all the regular dungeons. Entered VR Spindlecluth and did nothing but wipe for an entire afternoon. All from bad habits formed because players didn't need to block, dodge, DPS effectively, etc once they got to level 30. As it is half the people I run with are incapable of killing the Spawn of Mephala in Fungal Grotto without using the Bridge exploit because they have become too reliant on it...

3. If loot and XP is 10% of normal, how will these "casual" players meaningfully progress in a game that already has a notoriously long "grind"? So not only will these casuals be comfortable with bad habits but they aren't even getting the meaningful progression necessary if they even want to do the normal versions of the content?

By learning the content on an easier setting, so that they can progress to Normal and eventually Vet mode at some future point. Or, not (because they are roleplayers or whatever reason).

ZoS already has "scaling". Its in place, on live servers. All they need is to come up with a way to scale it for even lower difficulty.

cozmon3c_ESO

look just because your casual doesnt mean you dont want hard content, what these people are basically saying is they are sucking it up and need some help but are too afraid to ask for it. my suggestion is find someone on youtube, watch him play, learn some things and try out what he does and be successful. Ask guildies to help you with your build. dont be that guy who thinks he can do damage with a two hander while being full magicka, it just wont work and you will be out of stam before you get through a few swings.

Magdalina

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

I don't see any issue with having tuned-down versions of the trials/vet DSA that scale loot rewards accordingly to invite participation from a wider percentage of the population. It's fun content that everyone should be able to at least experience. Just don't nerf it to the ground in order to do so.

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.

No, there isn't.

Vet DSA - impossible for casuals
Normal DSA - impossible for casuals

Again, NOTHING will change for Normal or Vet (insert content here). It would only be an ADDITION of a 3rd setting, "Casual", which would severely limit loot and XP (like, Loot is VR1, and XP is 10% of normal).

Uh. I think out definitions of "casual" differ. vDSA is hard and impossile for a lot of players, even good ones(it depends a lot on the group working as a whole). Normal DSA...shouldn't even casuals have some challenge?
When you enter DSA, it sounds so fun, and you hear this guy taunting you and just want to beat the hell out of him soooooo much! And then there're all the fun new(for the first few times) mechanics you gotta figure out in order to do it, you learn the place, overcome the ods and come to victory(I've seen a lot of perfectly casual players do this btw, and it really made them happy about their chracters and game). When you enter DSA for first time you feel like you accepted a challenge and once you do it, you feel like you overcame it. It may be a digital world, but the feeling of achievement is real.

What exactly do you want it changed to? Do you want all mobs to have 1 hp and hit for 10 damage tops? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm trying to understand. DSA doesn't even have a quest assosiated with it - it's just what the name states, an Arena where you come if you want to be challenged. If you're not looking for a challenge, there's virtually nothing for you to do there. There's no storyline to see, the loot - well, you're suggesting it's nerfed so you're obviously not in it for loot either...what do you want to do there?

onlinegamer1

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

look just because your casual doesnt mean you dont want hard content, what these people are basically saying is they are sucking it up and need some help but are too afraid to ask for it. my suggestion is find someone on youtube, watch him play, learn some things and try out what he does and be successful. Ask guildies to help you with your build. dont be that guy who thinks he can do damage with a two hander while being full magicka, it just wont work and you will be out of stam before you get through a few swings.

Thanks for not reading/understanding the thread.

There is no issue with strategy (We're not standing in red, ignoring the strats, etc)
There is no issue with gear (We have crafted purple/gold VR14 sets)

It's that we just aren't skilled enough at twitching/animation cancelling/weaving while blocking+dodging to survive the designs of this content.

Jaerlach

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

itsBishop wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

I don't see any issue with having tuned-down versions of the trials/vet DSA that scale loot rewards accordingly to invite participation from a wider percentage of the population. It's fun content that everyone should be able to at least experience. Just don't nerf it to the ground in order to do so.

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.

No, there isn't.

Vet DSA - impossible for casuals
Normal DSA - impossible for casuals

Again, NOTHING will change for Normal or Vet (insert content here). It would only be an ADDITION of a 3rd setting, "Casual", which would severely limit loot and XP (like, Loot is VR1, and XP is 10% of normal).

Regular dsa isn't impossible for casuals. Its impossible for people who aren't trying to be effective. There's no dps or heals check or enrage timer. You just learn the mechanics and execute. All the special mechanic mobs can be cc ed, so the unique mechanics of dsa can be skipped most of the time.

It even has a repair shop inside. All you need is a party composition, and some rational builds. You don't have to be perfectly optimized, you just can't be a heavy armor 2h dps build.

Robbmrp

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS should revamp the whole dungeon difficulty. The Normal mode needs to be exactly that, Normal. Veteran mode a lot more difficult than Normal but still manageable with a PUG group. Then there's a level above Veteran with even greater difficulty and better rewards.
[...]

I kind of like that idea, if I get a piece of the dungeon-sets everytime I complete the hardest mode

Yeah, with varying level of difficulty and drops, everyone can enjoy the content and get items to help them improve their gear setup so they can work towards the next level. You have levels that anyone can do.

The Elites don't have to do the lower levels, why would they, they want the best gear, they should have the hardest level.

DschiPeunt

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

[...]
It's that we just aren't skilled enough at twitching/animation cancelling/weaving while blocking+dodging to survive the designs of this content.

You don't need these things to complete a veteran dungeon.

Jaerlach

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

look just because your casual doesnt mean you dont want hard content, what these people are basically saying is they are sucking it up and need some help but are too afraid to ask for it. my suggestion is find someone on youtube, watch him play, learn some things and try out what he does and be successful. Ask guildies to help you with your build. dont be that guy who thinks he can do damage with a two hander while being full magicka, it just wont work and you will be out of stam before you get through a few swings.

Thanks for not reading/understanding the thread.

There is no issue with strategy (We're not standing in red, ignoring the strats, etc)
There is no issue with gear (We have crafted purple/gold VR14 sets)

It's that we just aren't skilled enough at twitching/animation cancelling/weaving while blocking+dodging to survive the designs of this content.

That's a ludicrous presumption because those behaviors aren't needed to kill praxin. praxin has two phases: lots of CC able adds who do a lot of damage, and a survival phase. Even the boss nightmareS can be ccd. if you're dying to them it's due to inadequate aoe mitigation and cc usage. Negate, veil, cinder storm, choking talons, ring of preservation, while aoe dpsing, then single target dps while stunning the boss adds (big Rabu etc). Holding block down while aoeing is helpful. Trying to animation cancel while aoeing is usually bad. The everyone should tape down block during add phase.

The second phase is survival. spread out, call out the ring, tank with inner beast, avoid the slow purple v. Dps can be awful because there is no enrage and damage isn't high: you either avoid one shot mechanics like ring or lines or die.

remember that praxin does not aggro for a long time during add phase unless taunted. If your tank engages him right away I can imagine why it would be so hard.

All the things you talk about are in the game but totally irrelevant to praxin. The dps test in spindle is blood spawn. If you're beating him your dps is fine for the instance. You don't have to add new dps tricks to praxin. You need to focus on damage mitigation and add control.

Joy_Division

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Reasons why a "casual mode" is more complicated than you think:

1. Our last content release was in, what, October or November? It's been so long I can't even remember. The next once isn't scheduled until after the console release (June) dies down. What exactly am I getting for my sub fee?

2. It will segregate the player base because "casuals" will be way too comfortable with bad habits and be literally incapable of playing with even average players. When I hit VR1 I thought I had the game all figured out because I was able to smoke through all the regular dungeons. Entered VR Spindlecluth and did nothing but wipe for an entire afternoon. All from bad habits formed because players didn't need to block, dodge, DPS effectively, etc once they got to level 30. As it is half the people I run with are incapable of killing the Spawn of Mephala in Fungal Grotto without using the Bridge exploit because they have become too reliant on it...

3. If loot and XP is 10% of normal, how will these "casual" players meaningfully progress in a game that already has a notoriously long "grind"? So not only will these casuals be comfortable with bad habits but they aren't even getting the meaningful progression necessary if they even want to do the normal versions of the content?

By learning the content on an easier setting, so that they can progress to Normal and eventually Vet mode at some future point. Or, not (because they are roleplayers or whatever reason).

ZoS already has "scaling". Its in place, on live servers. All they need is to come up with a way to scale it for even lower difficulty.

You did learn the content on an easier setting: levels 1-50. Progress already.

When they release content quicker than bi-yearly, then I wont complain about them taking the time to "come up with a way" for lower difficulty. Oh wait, they already did: find a Vr1 and use all the exploits for the hardest fights.

xMovingTarget

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

Well, its not too hard. Another thing, bad builds etc should try to get better builds in order to complete trials. Too play bad shouldnt be promoted by a system like that.

Robbmrp

Magdalina wrote: »

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.

This statement is going to vary from person to person because of their perception of "normal". We all have our own level of gaming skill and what I consider normal some other people would consider average or above average.

With DSA, you can't go in there with green and blue items and be that effective let alone get invited to a group in the first place. That's why there's a need for a level where they could. This would be the easiest level for the dungeon that anyone could complete. Yes it would have it's difficulties but would still be able to be completed. Those that want harder dungeon experiences run the harder levels. Those that have never been there before, who want to learn the fights and bosses will take the easiest level to help make themselves better players.

How can someone gain dungeon experience when their inexperience and lower gear items won't get them invited to a group to begin with? To get in a group for any dungeon, you have to be X level with X amount of DPS or you get kicked. With having lower levels of difficulty that isn't going to happen and we will get people into groups sooner and playing more often. Less time trying to find that one person needed to start the dungeon means more playing time and enjoyment for everyone.

A big problem people have now is just trying to find a group for the Normal level. Most Vets don't want to waste time running "Normal" dungeons because it's not worth their time. They will run the Daily Normal dungeon but that's about it. They want to get the most out of their time the same as everyone else.

Lower level dungeons will also help when people are trying out new builds for their characters. People running Vet dungeons don't want someone in there who's "testing" a new build. If they can't do effective DPS immediately your out! The easy level will allow ANYONE regardless of build to go in and test/tweak their build.

Having these lower dungeon levels aren't going to affect anyone who already run the Vet Level dungeons. Who knows, maybe with this change they get even a harder one they will enjoy more with even better gear!

It allows others that would not "normally" be able to experience that content to go in, have fun and get better gear to help make them better players so they can look forward to the next challenge, the next level of difficulty.

onlinegamer1

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This setting (on or off) would allow people to learn the harder content with weaker monsters, loot and XP.

i.e. There would still be just "Normal" and "Veteran" dungeon modes, but you also have a checkbox "[ ] Learning Mode". If checked, monsters are easier, but loot and XP are dramatically nerfed (10% XP, very low level loot)

Thanks!

Updated the OP, to change the terminology so people understand it better.

DschiPeunt

Robbmrp wrote: »

[...]
With DSA, you can't go in there with green and blue items and be that effective let alone get invited to a group in the first place. That's why there's a need for a level where they could. This would be the easiest level for the dungeon that anyone could complete. Yes it would have it's difficulties but would still be able to be completed. Those that want harder dungeon experiences run the harder levels. Those that have never been there before, who want to learn the fights and bosses will take the easiest level to help make themselves better players.

How can someone gain dungeon experience when their inexperience and lower gear items won't get them invited to a group to begin with? To get in a group for any dungeon, you have to be X level with X amount of DPS or you get kicked. With having lower levels of difficulty that isn't going to happen and we will get people into groups sooner and playing more often. Less time trying to find that one person needed to start the dungeon means more playing time and enjoyment for everyone.

A big problem people have now is just trying to find a group for the Normal level. Most Vets don't want to waste time running "Normal" dungeons because it's not worth their time. They will run the Daily Normal dungeon but that's about it. They want to get the most out of their time the same as everyone else.

Lower level dungeons will also help when people are trying out new builds for their characters. People running Vet dungeons don't want someone in there who's "testing" a new build. If they can't do effective DPS immediately your out! The easy level will allow ANYONE regardless of build to go in and test/tweak their build.

Having these lower dungeon levels aren't going to affect anyone who already run the Vet Level dungeons. Who knows, maybe with this change they get even a harder one they will enjoy more with even better gear!

It allows others that would not "normally" be able to experience that content to go in, have fun and get better gear to help make them better players so they can look forward to the next challenge, the next level of difficulty.

1. So you want the content to be a little bit of a challenge, but anyone can complete it. That's ridiculous, because there will always be people, that won't be able to do it. ("Why can't I heal properly with my stamina DK heavy armor build?")
2. I don't know if you are playing on EU or NA server, but on EU I never experienced that someone was asking a random for their DPS.
3. Those elitist gamers, that some people hate on, are actually people, spending their free time playing this game and want to have a good time. I have shown people how things go. If I see a low level struggling for 10 mins to find a group for a dungeon, I go in there with him and try to make him feel useful and do some damage on his own. But a lot of these people don't even thank me or vanish from the game after a while. I don't see, why I should spend my time showing people how things go, when they quit the game 2 weeks after.
4. There is still a normal version of the dungeons, which you can scale down to lvl 1 if you need it and you can test whatever build you like.
5. So they get better gear for doing something that literally anyone should be able to complete. Doesn't sound fair to me.

Magdalina

Robbmrp wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.

This statement is going to vary from person to person because of their perception of "normal". We all have our own level of gaming skill and what I consider normal some other people would consider average or above average.

With DSA, you can't go in there with green and blue items and be that effective let alone get invited to a group in the first place. That's why there's a need for a level where they could. This would be the easiest level for the dungeon that anyone could complete. Yes it would have it's difficulties but would still be able to be completed. Those that want harder dungeon experiences run the harder levels. Those that have never been there before, who want to learn the fights and bosses will take the easiest level to help make themselves better players.

How can someone gain dungeon experience when their inexperience and lower gear items won't get them invited to a group to begin with? To get in a group for any dungeon, you have to be X level with X amount of DPS or you get kicked. With having lower levels of difficulty that isn't going to happen and we will get people into groups sooner and playing more often. Less time trying to find that one person needed to start the dungeon means more playing time and enjoyment for everyone.

A big problem people have now is just trying to find a group for the Normal level. Most Vets don't want to waste time running "Normal" dungeons because it's not worth their time. They will run the Daily Normal dungeon but that's about it. They want to get the most out of their time the same as everyone else.

Lower level dungeons will also help when people are trying out new builds for their characters. People running Vet dungeons don't want someone in there who's "testing" a new build. If they can't do effective DPS immediately your out! The easy level will allow ANYONE regardless of build to go in and test/tweak their build.

Having these lower dungeon levels aren't going to affect anyone who already run the Vet Level dungeons. Who knows, maybe with this change they get even a harder one they will enjoy more with even better gear!

It allows others that would not "normally" be able to experience that content to go in, have fun and get better gear to help make them better players so they can look forward to the next challenge, the next level of difficulty.

By normal in my post I actually just meant the non-vet mode of DSA, but I see your point.

I'd still like to respectfully disagree though

There're plenty of non elitist players who don't care (much) about your level nor dps when you join a normal dungeon PUG group. Even most elitists won't care - normal dungeons are already easy enough for non optimal builds.
I know there IS a problem with finding groups for harder content - vet dungeons and DSA, but I think for those it's better to run with friends/guildies while you're learning. When people get groups together they have different goals in mind - some of them just want a fast "farming" run, others don't mind teaching. You just need to find a friendly team that won't mind learning mechanics with you - or showing them to you. Hell if you're on NA EP - message me, I'll run with you and explain any mechanic you need.

I know people that 2 man normal DSA and people that run (most of) it naked. I'm not saying it's something everyone should/can do, but I do think normal DSA is easy enough to be completed with any resemblance of rational builds(and I fully believe you can do it in green gear, though I don't see why you would. It doesn't scale down so you'll probably only get to it at like vet 12+, there's no way you can't upgrade your gear at least to blue at that point). Furtermore, I think as it is now, it IS a great incentive to learn. People feel challenged and try to be better. I think if it had a mode even easier, exact opposite would happen - people would faceroll it with literally ANY build and skill, learn nothing and then wonder why it doesn't work that way everywhere.

@onlinegamer1, instead of asking for content to be brought down to your level, why not try to get up there yourself?;) Let's talk DSA. What lvl/class/builds were you running? What round/boss/mechanic did you have problem with?

DschiPeunt

Magdalina wrote: »

[...]
Hell if you're on NA EP - message me, I'll run with you and explain any mechanic you need.
[...]

I can offer the same for EU AD. Someone from my guild even runs dungeon tours twice a week to explain the mechanics to people from our guild that haven't done it.

Joy_Division

Robbmrp wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.

This statement is going to vary from person to person because of their perception of "normal". We all have our own level of gaming skill and what I consider normal some other people would consider average or above average.

With DSA, you can't go in there with green and blue items and be that effective let alone get invited to a group in the first place. That's why there's a need for a level where they could. This would be the easiest level for the dungeon that anyone could complete. Yes it would have it's difficulties but would still be able to be completed. Those that want harder dungeon experiences run the harder levels. Those that have never been there before, who want to learn the fights and bosses will take the easiest level to help make themselves better players.

How can someone gain dungeon experience when their inexperience and lower gear items won't get them invited to a group to begin with? To get in a group for any dungeon, you have to be X level with X amount of DPS or you get kicked. With having lower levels of difficulty that isn't going to happen and we will get people into groups sooner and playing more often. Less time trying to find that one person needed to start the dungeon means more playing time and enjoyment for everyone.

A big problem people have now is just trying to find a group for the Normal level. Most Vets don't want to waste time running "Normal" dungeons because it's not worth their time. They will run the Daily Normal dungeon but that's about it. They want to get the most out of their time the same as everyone else.

Lower level dungeons will also help when people are trying out new builds for their characters. People running Vet dungeons don't want someone in there who's "testing" a new build. If they can't do effective DPS immediately your out! The easy level will allow ANYONE regardless of build to go in and test/tweak their build.

Having these lower dungeon levels aren't going to affect anyone who already run the Vet Level dungeons. Who knows, maybe with this change they get even a harder one they will enjoy more with even better gear!

It allows others that would not "normally" be able to experience that content to go in, have fun and get better gear to help make them better players so they can look forward to the next challenge, the next level of difficulty.

OK a couple things here.

Normal DSA is VR 12+ content...how is it even possible you are running around with green gear? That just being lazy or being cheap.

Normal DSA is the "gateway" learning experience to get to Vet DSA. When people first try it they might get to level 6. That's fine. It was the only content released for an entire half year...if people are completing it on their first crack, something is wrong! By your third try, you get to the boss and have to figure it out, maybe you do it then maybe it takes to the next time. But when you finish it you are happy and proud of your new title so you put it on your character. This type of progression is perfectly normal and fine. It happens to even the "elite" players.

What seems to be the issue here is that "casuals" and "elites" are often faced with the same situation when new content comes out: they wipe and are incapable of defeating it. Apparently what makes an "elite" player "elite" is that they take a bit of introspection and figure out what it is they can do better or how to approach the fights differently. Whereas other players come to the forums and ask for easier content.

You ask how can someone gain experience? When I type "LF 1 DPS for daily pledge," whisper me back. I don't bite. I won't ask what your DPS is or what your crit chance is (although I will concede some jerks do that...at least 80% of us dont). I will only ask your level because I am VR14 and it would be unfair for a VR2 or 3 to handle the difficulty.

During the dungeon, don't be afraid to ask questions. I get it, some people are impatient jerks. I am not and I think most others are willing to help because it will make for a smoother dungeon run and add to the overall health of the game.

And I absolutely disagree with the premise that doing easy content makes you a better player. Absolutely 100% disagree. What other aspect in life is that even applicable? When the military trains its recruits, it does not mollycoddle them to make them effective solders. When professional athletes practice, they do so under game-like conditions because how you practice is how you play. Even in intellectual practices, students are throw into the fire from the very beginning - ask any doctor how their organic chemistry class was in her freshman year or a professor how humbled he was in his first graduate seminar. People only improve when challenged and pushed beyond their comfort level.

Robbmrp

Joy_Division wrote: »

OK a couple things here.

Normal DSA is VR 12+ content...how is it even possible you are running around with green gear? That just being lazy or being cheap.
And I absolutely disagree with the premise that doing easy content makes you a better player. Absolutely 100% disagree. What other aspect in life is that even applicable? When the military trains its recruits, it does not mollycoddle them to make them effective solders. When professional athletes practice, they do so under game-like conditions because how you practice is how you play. Even in intellectual practices, students are throw into the fire from the very beginning - ask any doctor how their organic chemistry class was in her freshman year or a professor how humbled he was in his first graduate seminar. People only improve when challenged and pushed beyond their comfort level.

I wasn't referring to my gear with my post. I haven't worn a green item since before level 20. I make my own 9 trait gear as well as sell it to others. That's how I know there are people out there using green/blue gear.

IMO there would be a lot more people to group with and enjoying the content if there were more than 2 dungeon levels.

Exstazik

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This setting (on or off) would allow people to learn the harder content with weaker monsters, loot and XP.

i.e. There would still be just "Normal" and "Veteran" dungeon modes, but you also have a checkbox "[ ] Learning Mode". If checked, monsters are easier, but loot and XP are dramatically nerfed (10% XP, very low level loot)

Thanks!

Learning Mode ?hmmm...good idea.But without any xp/loot....
P.S.Learning Mode: "how to grind for Imperator godmode "

Mikeriddle1b16_ESO

The fact that content from 1 to 50 is all solo, except for a set of dungeons every 8 levels or so is a key problem (the majority of overland bosses are easily soloable and Anchors are soloing with other players soloing stuff around you). Allot of players are relearning group play during those levels, which involves unpicking habits that work well whilst soloing, but there is not enough group content (whilst levelling) for many players to keep in practice before reverting back to solo play habits. Solo XP is so fast and sometimes groups take so long to get that it is easy to over-level a dungeon before a group is available.

IMO the best way of helping casuals learn, and to encourage more socialisation/ group generally, would be to have large overland areas with group content across all levels. That way more players would get used to grouping without the problem of prolonged waiting to group for a series of boss encounters for which everyone already assumes they are already experienced in moving to the right spot in.

AlnilamE

Joy_Division wrote: »

Normal DSA is the "gateway" learning experience to get to Vet DSA. When people first try it they might get to level 6. That's fine. It was the only content released for an entire half year...if people are completing it on their first crack, something is wrong! By your third try, you get to the boss and have to figure it out, maybe you do it then maybe it takes to the next time. But when you finish it you are happy and proud of your new title so you put it on your character. This type of progression is perfectly normal and fine. It happens to even the "elite" players.

LOL! Where you there when I tried to run it last weekend? Because that's exactly as far as I got. :-)

Though it was technically my second time, as I wandered in there once when I was V7 and we got to the boss in the second round.

And I absolutely disagree with the premise that doing easy content makes you a better player. Absolutely 100% disagree. What other aspect in life is that even applicable? When the military trains its recruits, it does not mollycoddle them to make them effective solders. When professional athletes practice, they do so under game-like conditions because how you practice is how you play. Even in intellectual practices, students are throw into the fire from the very beginning - ask any doctor how their organic chemistry class was in her freshman year or a professor how humbled he was in his first graduate seminar. People only improve when challenged and pushed beyond their comfort level.

While challenge is a good thing, a steady learning curve is also a way to learn. Professional athletes were not born professionals. They started slowly, did a lot of easy training that got incresingly difficult but not too much so they could progress without getting too frustrated.

You don't put someone on ice skates for the first time, give them a stick and throw them into a hockey game. There is a progression, and one of the best things about learning is looking back sometimes and realizing how much you have improved (and then seeing how far you still have to go).

I think in ESO, finding your way through the "progression path" is not as evident as it could be.

Sure, you have normal dungeons and veteran dungeons, but the Vet dungeons are not scaled (in terms of difficulty of mechanics) in a way that's obvious.

For example, I would expect the Tier 1 vet dungeons (FG, SC and BC) to be easier than the Tier 2 (EH, WS, DC). Yet, I've been through the Tier 2 ones several times and quite enjoy them, but I hate SC (and make sure to kick Praxin every time I go through normal SC for good measure.)

If you can figure out which challenge increases you can handle and where to find those (normal dungeons, Craglorn delves/quests, vet dungeons, DSA and/or Trials) and in which order, you will get to end game with enough skill to handle what's thrown your way.

But if you take the wrong path and end up in a place that's impossible for you to do at your present skill/gear level, then you are eventually going to give up in frustration.

Robbmrp

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Again, NOTHING will change for Normal or Vet (insert content here). It would only be an ADDITION of a 3rd setting, "Casual", which would severely limit loot and XP (like, Loot is VR1, and XP is 10% of normal).

IMO I see nothing wrong with this. If someone wants to learn their way through a dungeon they've never been to before and others want this as well, why not add it. It won't affect ANY other dungeon level/experience gained or loot dropped.

This game is supposed to be "Play as you Want" yet here's another example of people NOT being able to do just that. Who cares if they get reduced/no XP or reduced level loot? They don't, they are there to learn the dungeon and the fights, not for loot or to grind experience. When I enter a dungeon it's because I want to experience that content. Not gain a billion experience from it or because I want a special "set piece". I personally couldn't care less if dungeons gave experience or not. That's not why I'm going there.

Also is that 1 drop that they will get going to take them from the Casual Level all the way to Elite status? Not in the slightest. What hurt is it going to do to give them a blue set item for the level they ran it in. IMO none at all.

xaraan

Normal pretty much is easy mode on Arena and you can scale dungeons down to V1 if you really have to. Seems like it would be a waste of development time IMO when they need to be focused on getting out some actual content we can play (like new zones, dungeons, etc).

baratron

Sasky wrote: »

The difficulty adjustment got lost a bit from the single-player TES games to ESO. For example, in Skyrim you had several difficulties from 'you had to try to die' to 'better save before every battle' (and mods that even extended it further). Why would a single difficulty be more likely to satisfy an online audience than an offline audience?

This. I've been playing ESO since the first open beta weekend, and working on my current characters since Early Access. And at the beginning, the game was IMPOSSIBLE. I was a person who started Skyrim and Oblivion on the lowest difficulty settings, and only made it up to the middle difficulty setting after literally hundreds of hours in the game. The lack of difficulty sliders on ESO almost made me give up during the beta.

Jaerlach wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

There is something wrong when a V11 Sorcerer Healer, a V14 Dragonknight Tank, a V14 Dragonknight DPS and a V13 Nightblade DPS can't complete Veteran Spindleclutch scaled to V2. Especially considering this exact same group has got through all Lower Craglorn content easily, and has only struggled with the final boss in Shada's Tear.

Press the "LOL" button all you like, but this is the situation which tons of players are in. We've optimised our builds to the best of our abilities, taking advice from anyone with half a clue. We use equipment sets which are appropriate for the skills we wish to use and improved to purple or gold quality. We use blue or purple V5 food and quaff tri-potions. We are even reading the small number of FAQs which are out there for how to deal with particular bosses, and adjust our skill bars accordingly. And apparently we still suck.

And it's more frustrating than "elite" players can possibly believe.

It wouldn't be difficult for ZoS to introduce a "casual" mode so we could experience the content and the quests, and actually have a chance of finishing them. I don't mind if I don't get loot, I just want to be able to enjoy the story of each dungeon.

If I might ask, which fight did you struggle on?

Praxin is one of the harder fights in a veteran dungeon, but if you are doing it on v2 it should not be an issue as long as you manage the initial add phase well. The spiders can deal a boatload of damage that would be a real struggle for a sorc to heal through with healing springs. However, with good use of veils of blades, negate, and the various AOE mitigation skills available to your DKs (especially choking talons from your tank, and cinder storm from one or both of them), you should be able to mitigate the add waves enough for healing springs to do the job. Remember that all the mini-bosses in that fight can be CC'd, so negate is incredibly potent and probably best used to manage the 2nd add spawn (with all the healers in it).

If you were dying on bloodspawn, its probably just a DPS performance issue.

The Blood Spawn took 3, or possibly 4 attempts. I had to keep yelling at people to keep away from the walls and to stop standing in the red, but we did manage it.

Praxin and his waves... We only got to the stage where Praxin becomes a lich once in well over twenty attempts. (And I'm excluding all the attempts where we died within the first 10 seconds, which was every time I couldn't drop my Storm Atronach in time). I was using Daedric Minefield despite being the Healer, the Dragonknights were using Choking Talons and the Nightblade was using Veil of Blades (which I'm not actually sure did anything, even though the guides recommended it). And when we got to the massive add spawn, I was using Suppression Field (morph of Negate). I can't be certain of what everyone else was doing because I was too busy trying to keep us all alive, but certainly everyone had the right attacks on their bars.

Joy_Division wrote: »

baratron wrote: »

There is something wrong when a V11 Sorcerer Healer, a V14 Dragonknight Tank, a V14 Dragonknight DPS and a V13 Nightblade DPS can't complete Veteran Spindleclutch scaled to V2. Especially considering this exact same group has got through all Lower Craglorn content easily, and has only struggled with the final boss in Shada's Tear.

Press the "LOL" button all you like, but this is the situation which tons of players are in. We've optimised our builds to the best of our abilities, taking advice from anyone with half a clue. We use equipment sets which are appropriate for the skills we wish to use and improved to purple or gold quality. We use blue or purple V5 food and quaff tri-potions. We are even reading the small number of FAQs which are out there for how to deal with particular bosses, and adjust our skill bars accordingly. And apparently we still suck.

And it's more frustrating than "elite" players can possibly believe.

It wouldn't be difficult for ZoS to introduce a "casual" mode so we could experience the content and the quests, and actually have a chance of finishing them. I don't mind if I don't get loot, I just want to be able to enjoy the story of each dungeon.

You are right, there is no reason why 4 VR11+ players can't finish Spindleclutch at VR2. Look, I know the Praxin fight is hard...probably the hardest vet dungeon (excluding CoA) fight...especially if people are unfamiliar with the mechanics, but set to VR2 that's the player's fault.

Also the dungeons in Craglorn are considerably easier than the Vet dungeon content and not a good comparison.

A Craglorn dungeon is V11 or V13, though. Surely you'd expect it to be harder than a Veteran Dungeon scaled to V2?

Something happened with Veteran Dungeons when Patch 1.5 introduced scaling. Suddenly, dungeons that I'd been able to complete before became impossible. I have achievements for Veteran Spindleclutch on multiple characters, even the "Finish the dungeon in 20 minutes" achievement, and yet now I can't do them any more - despite being higher level than I was, and despite employing V1 and V2 characters to "turn the difficulty down".

I'm familiar with the dungeons and I know most of the "tricks" for the bosses, and even if I don't, quick reference to a guide can remind me. So why do we keep failing?

I just want to be able to finish these dungeons and get the rest of the achievements. I couldn't care less about loot.

Joy_Division

AlnilamE wrote: »

LOL! Where you there when I tried to run it last weekend? Because that's exactly as far as I got. :-)

I run through DSA enough time with enough player and heard enough stories to know most of our experiences are fairly similar.

While challenge is a good thing, a steady learning curve is also a way to learn. Professional athletes were not born professionals. They started slowly, did a lot of easy training that got incresingly difficult but not too much so they could progress without getting too frustrated.

You don't put someone on ice skates for the first time, give them a stick and throw them into a hockey game. There is a progression, and one of the best things about learning is looking back sometimes and realizing how much you have improved (and then seeing how far you still have to go).

I think in ESO, finding your way through the "progression path" is not as evident as it could be.

Sure, you have normal dungeons and veteran dungeons, but the Vet dungeons are not scaled (in terms of difficulty of mechanics) in a way that's obvious.

For example, I would expect the Tier 1 vet dungeons (FG, SC and BC) to be easier than the Tier 2 (EH, WS, DC). Yet, I've been through the Tier 2 ones several times and quite enjoy them, but I hate SC (and make sure to kick Praxin every time I go through normal SC for good measure.)

If you can figure out which challenge increases you can handle and where to find those (normal dungeons, Craglorn delves/quests, vet dungeons, DSA and/or Trials) and in which order, you will get to end game with enough skill to handle what's thrown your way.

But if you take the wrong path and end up in a place that's impossible for you to do at your present skill/gear level, then you are eventually going to give up in frustration.

I would contend that the 1-50 content is the steady learning curve or it is supposed to be. My problem is that from my experience the content got relatively EASIER rather than harder from 1-50 and then once you hit Vet ranks: BAM, you are in the deep end of the pool. So this is a problem of execution rather than design.

The Tier 1 Vet dungeons were originally scaled to be easier, the problem with this was two-fold: the were still *a lot* harder than the dungeon in Coldharbor (the name eludes me) and became so trivial when you reached Vet 7 or so that they were no longer worthwhile doing.

I'm telling you, the very first time I did Vet spindleclutch I spent an entire afternoon wiping and never got past the Praxin fight. The very first time I tried Vet Crypt of Hearts, we stayed up till 4:30 in the morning, I depleted all my soul gems and magicka pots and didn't beat it. I am fairly certain that even if the "elite" players were honest and not concerned about their reputations, they would admit as such. The content IS hard to the inexperienced, but the solution to this is not to put on training wheels, but to actually do some introspection and see what it was that you can be doing better. In short, it wasn't the fault of the game that I wiped on Spindlecluth but my fault for being a lazy healer who got way too comfortable with the bad habit accumulated by the very easy content that you are asking for and believe will be the solution.

Let's analyze that Praxin fight and try to envision how a "training" run might possibly help players. I've done this fight over 100 times and I this is what all groups need to do:

1) mitigate the damage from first horde of spiders. If they do not do this, it is an instant wipe.
2) aoe them down and spam healing springs.
3) second wave isn't nearly as bad since less spiders and tank can taunt big boss, but mitigation and aoe still necessary
4) third wave: this is a huge DPS check, specifically AOE. Groups must quickly take down the trash while the tank holds aggro on the mini-bosses. Healers need to be CCed and killed as priority targets.
5) fourth wave: there probably will still be stuff alive from wave three. More adds, at this point there will be a spider boss, a charger boss, and a nightblade type boss. This stuff has to die quickly before Praxin becomes hostile.

In a training wheels scenario, how is a group supposed to learn ANY of these mechanics? I'm totally serious.

1) if the first horde of spiders do not instill the fear of death, players will not put down Circle of Protection, cinderstorm, and not hold block down while AOEing them. They won't because there is no reason to. They need to do this.

2) If healers get comfortable with low damage spiders, they will not spam healing springs and keep up hots because doing so would be a waste of magicka. they aren't being trained, they are learning bad habits.

3) Even with decent players, they still sometimes don't down the big spider in wave 2 before wave 3 comes. If they are not incentivized to do so now, why would they ever bother to even reconsider their DPS when they do down that spider in the "training" run?

4) Relates to point 3...DPS checks are a lazy mechanic but they serve a purpose: if I blow through the content on the training mode...what exactly is the game teaching or preparing me to do on the regular mode? We learn through failure. Success breeds complacency.

5) Groups with inadequate DPS will simply be overwhelmed by the 4th wave. A training run will not inform the player or the group that their DPS is too low, but reinforce the illusion that it is fine.

To the point, I will agree that 1-50 does not adequately prepare players for the difficulty in veteran content. But we don't need more "training sessions" that will reinforce bad habits already accumulated from playing 50 levels.

idk

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This setting (on or off) would allow people to learn the harder content with weaker monsters, loot and XP.

i.e. There would still be just "Normal" and "Veteran" dungeon modes, but you also have a checkbox "[ ] Learning Mode". If checked, monsters are easier, but loot and XP are dramatically nerfed (10% XP, very low level loot)

Thanks!

Vet dungeons are learning mode. If the damage doesn't hurt players don't learn to move and block. What vet dungeons are pushing people to move while they dps and heal and to watch what happens around you. Once you have it down you will see they aren't scaled to high.

As far as trials, when they doubled the Rez cap it became easier for casuals. Additionally, while it is only the last fight effected, there is a hard mode that kicks it up a notch. Just like the vet dungeons, trials are pushing players a bit more with requiring improving dps and movement some. Again, once a group has a trial cleared the first time they will find it much easier. A lighter version won't help as some may think.

idk

Also, this thread is more about the game in general, not the PTS changes. Would be better placed in the regular forums.

Shadesofkin

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This setting (on or off) would allow people to learn the harder content with weaker monsters, loot and XP.

i.e. There would still be just "Normal" and "Veteran" dungeon modes, but you also have a checkbox "[ ] Learning Mode". If checked, monsters are easier, but loot and XP are dramatically nerfed (10% XP, very low level loot)

Thanks!

1-50 dungeons are learning mode.

I get what you're saying, I even respect it, but I can't help feeling that the 1-50 was a giant tutorial with dungeons included to get you to the point where you could run those hard dungeons and raids effectively.

baratron

Joy_Division wrote: »

Let's analyze that Praxin fight and try to envision how a "training" run might possibly help players. I've done this fight over 100 times and I this is what all groups need to do:

1) mitigate the damage from first horde of spiders. If they do not do this, it is an instant wipe.
2) aoe them down and spam healing springs.
3) second wave isn't nearly as bad since less spiders and tank can taunt big boss, but mitigation and aoe still necessary
4) third wave: this is a huge DPS check, specifically AOE. Groups must quickly take down the trash while the tank holds aggro on the mini-bosses. Healers need to be CCed and killed as priority targets.
5) fourth wave: there probably will still be stuff alive from wave three. More adds, at this point there will be a spider boss, a charger boss, and a nightblade type boss. This stuff has to die quickly before Praxin becomes hostile.

In a training wheels scenario, how is a group supposed to learn ANY of these mechanics? I'm totally serious.

You make some good points.

I think the problem is that the mechanics are not obvious to a lot of players. All you know is that you're dead again. The Death Recaps are useful in showing you what killed you, but they are less useful in showing you what you're doing wrong - especially what you plural are doing wrong as a group.

Perhaps what we need is not to have the content made easier but to have the game give a lot more hints on the Death Recap screens. Even just having the waves broken down, so you don't have to try to fight all of them at once. It's one thing reading a guide or watching a YouTube video, and another to have the game itself flashing up ideas for how to improve. Also YouTube videos are very inaccessible since they are so rarely subtitled.

Unfortunately, this sort of "training mode" would require a lot more effort on Zenimax's part than simply reducing the difficulty, and so I doubt it will ever get done. Which is a shame, because it's what a lot of us "casual" players need in order to be able to progress.

In all honesty, I'm not even 100% sure what you mean by "mitigate the damage". How does one reduce damage while also attacking? I recently found out that you can hold the block button while using a staff for attack (yes, I've been playing for almost a year and I only just found out that you can block with a staff, because it was never explained anywhere that you could). But that screws up my Magicka management, since I usually hold down the attack button all the time so that I'm casting heavy attacks to restore my Magicka while hitting the various special ability buttons (1-5).

Also, I really do swear that Veteran Dungeons have become much, much harder since 1.5. It used to take maybe 3-5 attempts to do each boss, now we repeatedly get stuck for over an hour. We end up so exhausted that we're playing badly and have to give up. I just want to be able to finish, you know?

The other thing that would help would be if instanced dungeons allowed mixed-Alliance groups. Then we could all bring in our "best"/most-suited for the dungeon character rather than having to make do with the characters that happen to be in the same alliance.

I agree with @Giles.floydub17_ESO though. This probably should go on the main Discussion rather than the PTS form. Although it'll get spammed to death there, and gods only know how many more "LOL"s I'll get for being honest about being a lousy player .