Please implement "Learning" Mode for Trials and Veteran Dungeons

onlinegamer1 · February 2015

This setting (on or off) would allow people to learn the harder content with weaker monsters, loot and XP.

i.e. There would still be just "Normal" and "Veteran" dungeon modes, but you also have a checkbox "[ ] Learning Mode". If checked, monsters are easier, but loot and XP are dramatically nerfed (10% XP, very low level loot)

Thanks!

DeathDealer19 · February 2015

lol this is hilarious. Vet dungeons are already tuned for casuals. You can faceroll all of them. Ive 2 manned some vet dungeons lol. Trials.....AA and HRC are so easy its ridiculous. SO is difficult and I LOVE IT. so fun. Any casual player can complete everything aside from maybe Vet DSA and Sanctum Ophidia. Even those. We carry casuals all the time through them

Rosveen · February 2015

Speaking as a casual, please don't.

Snit · February 2015

Sometimes, it's hard to tell whether something is a suggestion that wasn't really thought through, or just poorly executed satire.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

Can't tell if you're serious or no.

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

lol this is hilarious. Vet dungeons are already tuned for casuals. You can faceroll all of them. Ive 2 manned some vet dungeons lol. Trials.....AA and HRC are so easy its ridiculous. SO is difficult and I LOVE IT. so fun. Any casual player can complete everything aside from maybe Vet DSA and Sanctum Ophidia. Even those. We carry casuals all the time through them

@DeathDealer19‌ , yeah since scaling was implemented? Unless you're talking about delves (not Vet Group Dungeons), I think I'm gonna have to request proof of this or call BS in a big way.

Shadesofkin · February 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

Dungeons in 1-50 are for casuals. They scale, you can do them at Veteran Rank too.

Jaerlach · February 2015

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

Can't tell if you're serious or no.

DeathDealer19 wrote: »

lol this is hilarious. Vet dungeons are already tuned for casuals. You can faceroll all of them. Ive 2 manned some vet dungeons lol. Trials.....AA and HRC are so easy its ridiculous. SO is difficult and I LOVE IT. so fun. Any casual player can complete everything aside from maybe Vet DSA and Sanctum Ophidia. Even those. We carry casuals all the time through them

@DeathDealer19‌ , yeah since scaling was implemented? Unless you're talking about delves (not Vet Group Dungeons), I think I'm gonna have to request proof of this or call BS in a big way.

I don't believe all vet dungeons could be 2 manned but there are some where I would find it believable. I have done big sections of vet dungeons shortman without any planning.

2 man probably needs some specific builds. A templar tank/healer and a sorc dps with both stam and magicka spec could do darkshade caverns. a DK tank could do it too. The dps relies on critical surge and the dk or templar has their own burst heal ability. the tank runs a dps bar for hivelord, both go aoe for Grombull, and the engine guardian is done by a healer with taunt for the spheres and bow dps single targets them and engine down.

Some vet dungeons have mechanics that would stop you (Malubeth in wayrest), ofc.

Slurg · February 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

I think you may not be serious about this suggestion.

However something like this would perhaps keep the less competitive players from trying to get into groups with the hardcore crowd (which they really don't like because bad builds get groups wiped), and perhaps reduce the cries to reduce difficulty that have ended up making a lot of things less challenging for everyone over life of the game.

So in that sense an "easy mode" wouldn't be the worst thing in the world as long as rewards were significantly reduced of course.

onlinegamer1 · February 2015

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

Dungeons in 1-50 are for casuals. They scale, you can do them at Veteran Rank too.

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

Jaerlach · February 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

shadesofkinb14_ESO wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

This difficulty setting would allow people with bad builds and horrible hand-eye coordination to complete them.

Thanks!

Dungeons in 1-50 are for casuals. They scale, you can do them at Veteran Rank too.

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

regular non veteran dsa is not really any harder than a scaled vet dungeon and is probably easier than veteran coa.

If you are v14 and can't complete regular vet dungeons, you either have poorly optimized your build (fixable) or have a bad case of stand in red (Usually fixable by learning mechanics, as avoiding red is basically pattern recognition and visual cues).

You don't need to deal 1400 dps or even 1000 dps to do those things, you just need to make sure your build and equipment are synergistic.

A friend of mine was dpsing v12 vet pledges on their first char at v8 just due to learning the mechanics and having a consistent build. A guildmate of mine has been dpsing v12 pledges on his nightblade since v3. He used to skip hard ones (like crypt of hearts), until he leveled further.

Vet dsa and Sanctum are hard and force optimization. Regular dsa is achievable with reasonable effort.

cozmon3c_ESO · February 2015

think of it as a challenge that you yourself want to over come, we dont need any participation trophies in this game.

Robbmrp · February 2015

ZOS should revamp the whole dungeon difficulty. The Normal mode needs to be exactly that, Normal. Veteran mode a lot more difficult than Normal but still manageable with a PUG group. Then there's a level above Veteran with even greater difficulty and better rewards.

Everyone bought this same game to enjoy everything it has to offer. You can only do so many quests/delves before wanting to do the dungeon content. By having various difficulties EVERYONE can enjoy all of the games content. This would make it easier and quicker for people to get into groups and actually enjoy the dungeon content. Instead of waiting an hour just to get 4 people that want to do the same dungeon at that same difficulty level.

You have people with various gaming skills out there from Average to Elite and all those in between, they should all be able to experience the same content at a level of difficulty they are comfortable with.

They are after all advertising "Play as you Want"......

Phinix1 · February 2015

I can see both sides of this, so let me add a bit of contrast by playing Devil's Advocate for a moment.

There are only 4 classes in this game. That is MINISCULE compared to virtually every other MMO in history. To add needed diversity and "play how you like" to the mix, ESO relies on unique build combinations centering on more than just class, making weapon and armor skills a cornerstone.

This is excellent in principle, as it makes the game less class-centric (though still more so than any other Elder Scrolls title), and allows a lot of really fun and unique styles of play.

The problem is that these unique and fun builds are made totally worthless by poor planning and execution on the part of the fledgling developers. This problem is only made worse in 1.6. Instead of a fun, diverse system with even a semblance of balance, you get pigeon-holed into min-maxing, going full magicka or full stamina, and the shortcomings of a 4-class system become clear.

I do not believe it is wrong for people to want to be able to run content with a hybrid build, or a non-min-maxed full stamina or full magicka build. I also think it is incredibly selfish for the elitists to chime in with their knee-jerk "hell no don't touch my ego fap!" here, because it hurts them in no way that others have a mode where they can at least see the content.

Ideally ZOS would have balanced out their combat systems so that the full spectrum of build diversity can at least be adequate to RUN the content, however they are new at this, and going on a year now it is pretty clear they are still struggling with balance, and 1.6 is doing more damage than good in that regard, buffing pure-stamina and pure-magicka builds and the time-to-kill to ridiculous proportions while rendering hybrid builds laughable even for some SOLO content.

Why should these paying customers be discriminated against just because some delusional ego-stroking elitist can only feel like they have succeeded on hard mode if they deny others the option to run it on a lower difficulty mode?

Seems like the old "it isn't enough that I succeed, but YOU must fail" ape-think to me.

DschiPeunt · February 2015

Robbmrp wrote: »

ZOS should revamp the whole dungeon difficulty. The Normal mode needs to be exactly that, Normal. Veteran mode a lot more difficult than Normal but still manageable with a PUG group. Then there's a level above Veteran with even greater difficulty and better rewards.
[...]

I kind of like that idea, if I get a piece of the dungeon-sets everytime I complete the hardest mode

itsBishop · February 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

I don't see any issue with having tuned-down versions of the trials/vet DSA that scale loot rewards accordingly to invite participation from a wider percentage of the population. It's fun content that everyone should be able to at least experience. Just don't nerf it to the ground in order to do so.

baratron · February 2015

There is something wrong when a V11 Sorcerer Healer, a V14 Dragonknight Tank, a V14 Dragonknight DPS and a V13 Nightblade DPS can't complete Veteran Spindleclutch scaled to V2. Especially considering this exact same group has got through all Lower Craglorn content easily, and has only struggled with the final boss in Shada's Tear.

Press the "LOL" button all you like, but this is the situation which tons of players are in. We've optimised our builds to the best of our abilities, taking advice from anyone with half a clue. We use equipment sets which are appropriate for the skills we wish to use and improved to purple or gold quality. We use blue or purple V5 food and quaff tri-potions. We are even reading the small number of FAQs which are out there for how to deal with particular bosses, and adjust our skill bars accordingly. And apparently we still suck.

And it's more frustrating than "elite" players can possibly believe.

It wouldn't be difficult for ZoS to introduce a "casual" mode so we could experience the content and the quests, and actually have a chance of finishing them. I don't mind if I don't get loot, I just want to be able to enjoy the story of each dungeon.

DschiPeunt · February 2015

baratron wrote: »

There is something wrong when a V11 Sorcerer Healer, a V14 Dragonknight Tank, a V14 Dragonknight DPS and a V13 Nightblade DPS can't complete Veteran Spindleclutch scaled to V2. Especially considering this exact same group has got through all Lower Craglorn content easily, and has only struggled with the final boss in Shada's Tear.

Press the "LOL" button all you like, but this is the situation which tons of players are in. We've optimised our builds to the best of our abilities, taking advice from anyone with half a clue. We use equipment sets which are appropriate for the skills we wish to use and improved to purple or gold quality. We use blue or purple V5 food and quaff tri-potions. We are even reading the small number of FAQs which are out there for how to deal with particular bosses, and adjust our skill bars accordingly. And apparently we still suck.

And it's more frustrating than "elite" players can possibly believe.

It wouldn't be difficult for ZoS to introduce a "casual" mode so we could experience the content and the quests, and actually have a chance of finishing them. I don't mind if I don't get loot, I just want to be able to enjoy the story of each dungeon.

I won't press the LOL-Button, but answer you instead.

I have done Veteran Spindleclutch only once and it was really frustrating after we wiped several times at the same boss, but in the end we did it. And the group I did it with wasn't that good.

But still I don't see why everytime someone can't complete something, they want an easier version. There is something they call endgame content. This exists, so that people that reached max lvl don't delete their character, because there is nothing to do.

What do you want the "easy" Veteran dungeons to be like? Every enemy has 1HP and the bosses have 5HP and do 10DPS damage?
Because that is what it comes down to in the end. There will always be people, that can't complete dungeons and trials and ZOS isn't there to dumb down the content everytime, because someone feels it is too hard.

Improve! Try again! Do it with other people! Try different approaches!
That's what the players are supposed to do instead of demanding to make the content easier! Because: it is doable without an elite-endgame-group.

ZRage · February 2015

There is casual mode already in game, it's called NORMAL

i'd like to see a day when people understand this.

Sasky · February 2015

ZRage wrote: »

There is casual mode already in game, it's called NORMAL

i'd like to see a day when people understand this.

For DSA, yes. For veteran dungeons, no. For trials, 'normal' and 'hard' mode only affect the last boss, so again not really.

The dungeons have completely different bosses and quest lines between normal and veteran. It's not just an easier version. A normal version should give at least experience of the same mechanics, so you could learn them with a larger margin for error.

The difficulty adjustment got lost a bit from the single-player TES games to ESO. For example, in Skyrim you had several difficulties from 'you had to try to die' to 'better save before every battle' (and mods that even extended it further). Why would a single difficulty be more likely to satisfy an online audience than an offline audience?

Lithium Flower · February 2015

Join a guild, request a VR1 to scale it to its lowest difficulty, wreck things, enjoy your downscaled loot.

Dagoth_Rac · February 2015

I have always felt that there should be a range of player-chosen difficulty for all content. None of this auto-level scaling baloney. Let group leader choose Easy/Medium/Hard/Insane. Disable achievements on certain lower difficulty levels, give weaker rewards, etc. But the more content there is for the most players, the better. If some group wants to play Sanctum Ophidia on Easy mode where it is no harder than a normal dungeon, let them. If someone wants to play normal Volenfell on Insane mode where "Desert Lion" hits as hard as Mantikora, let them.

Boom. Now you have about 30 pieces of group content that appeal to all players. Instead of about 2 pieces of content that appeal to hardcore players, a good chunk that appeal to "midcore" players, and hardly anything that appeals to casuals.

Syntse · February 2015

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

Like most of the active readers and posters know in this forum I'm casual gamer. Work during days and play couple of hours in the evenings.

I've completed every single vet dungeon, DSA Normal, AA Normal, Hel Ra Hard mode. Haven't put my foot in Sanctum or DSA Vet yet but that will happen too. So casuals can do it, will it be walk in the park? No.

It is hard content for those who seek hard content and definitely not impossible. Vet dungeons can be even scaled and if it's still too hard then might not be the place to go to since those are mainly just understanding the pretty simple mechanics of the bosses and some dps checks. Normal dungeons pretty much have only one thing, do not stand in the red.

I can understand that since vet dungeons are also rewarding skill point for completing that people want to complete those and get the skill point.

sigsergv · February 2015

The endgame content doesn't exist for casual players. Hell, you can't even find group to explore Craglorn or do some dolmens in VR5 region!

Guilds? They are for ignorant elitist kids only. Currently all my guilds are completely dead, they were casual guilds once, but now they are dead. Not emptym there are plenty of members, but they never log in anymore. Even guild stores are empty because all bids are expired.

I don't want to tune by build to only viable variant, I just want to play. So I do main story quests and when I finish them I quit as any other casual player. There is just no content for us.

Joy_Division · February 2015

baratron wrote: »

There is something wrong when a V11 Sorcerer Healer, a V14 Dragonknight Tank, a V14 Dragonknight DPS and a V13 Nightblade DPS can't complete Veteran Spindleclutch scaled to V2. Especially considering this exact same group has got through all Lower Craglorn content easily, and has only struggled with the final boss in Shada's Tear.

Press the "LOL" button all you like, but this is the situation which tons of players are in. We've optimised our builds to the best of our abilities, taking advice from anyone with half a clue. We use equipment sets which are appropriate for the skills we wish to use and improved to purple or gold quality. We use blue or purple V5 food and quaff tri-potions. We are even reading the small number of FAQs which are out there for how to deal with particular bosses, and adjust our skill bars accordingly. And apparently we still suck.

And it's more frustrating than "elite" players can possibly believe.

It wouldn't be difficult for ZoS to introduce a "casual" mode so we could experience the content and the quests, and actually have a chance of finishing them. I don't mind if I don't get loot, I just want to be able to enjoy the story of each dungeon.

You are right, there is no reason why 4 VR11+ players can't finish Spindleclutch at VR2. Look, I know the Praxin fight is hard...probably the hardest vet dungeon (excluding CoA) fight...especially if people are unfamiliar with the mechanics, but set to VR2 that's the player's fault.

Also the dungeons in Craglorn are considerably easier than the Vet dungeon content and not a good comparison.

I've run a lot of dungeons. I've done them with people are are on top of the leaderboards in ESO's most difficult content and I've run them with PuG groups that are the equivalent to "Sunday drivers." I will say this, ESO 4 man groups are a lot like a chain, which is only as strong as the weakest link. I've been is a group that has done multiple perfect Vet City of Ash runs and once time we replaced our healer and we could not even finish the dungeon. One poor player can absolutely torpedo a group. Two mediocre / inexperienced players will turn every vet dungeon (with the possible exception of Wayrest) into a wipefest.

I know it is frustrating because I have been in groups that failed to finish. But it is the nature of this game and perhaps MMOs in general that a weak / inexperienced player(s) can completely undermine a group that has multiple "elite" players in it. In fact, a weak player is actually a net negative to a group because they take up more attention and resources than they contribute.

I do think part of the blame goes to ZoS allowing bad skills to continue to be in the game: the Templar healing ritual spell gets people killed (and they still aren't fixing this!), sorcs have abysmal AoE and no dots (more stuff not being addressed!), and anyone who used Meteor instead of Nova was just wasting their ultimate. But at some point players need to recognize that they are too often in these groups that don't finish and look at their skill bars and wonder why they are using stuff that the "eilte" players on youtube are not. You do not have to be "elite" to finish 95% of the content in this game, just be willing to learn, have 1 good AoE skill, stay out of red circles and just be average.

Kragorn · February 2015

Snit wrote: »

Sometimes, it's hard to tell whether something is a suggestion that wasn't really thought through, or just poorly executed satire.

Given the OP's post history it's clearly not serious, just a poor troll attempt.

MuseTheDrunkenDragon · February 2015

As someone who has never managed to complete a veteran dungeon, I hope that the difficulty stays exactly as it is. Yes, vet dungeons are hard, too hard for me at the moment. But someday, I will complete one, and it will feel absolutly GLORIOUS.

Because that's the point of these things isn't it? To be hard, and to give a sense of accomplishment. Sort of like doing the werewolf quest at level 10. It took me dozens of attempts, but when I finally got it, I ran around the house cheering I was so happy.

tl;dr vet dungeons are hard because they are supposed to be, making them easier defeats the purpose of them.

Syntse · February 2015

MuseTheDrunkenDragon wrote: »

I will complete one, and it will feel absolutly GLORIOUS.

That was my feeling after 2 hours or more of wiping in Banished Cells before the scaling and finally beating the last boss clock being 1 or 2 am and could finally go to bed.

eliisra · February 2015

Joy_Division wrote: »

I do think part of the blame goes to ZoS allowing bad skills to continue to be in the game: the Templar healing ritual spell gets people killed (and they still aren't fixing this!), sorcs have abysmal AoE and no dots (more stuff not being addressed!), and anyone who used Meteor instead of Nova was just wasting their ultimate.

Not sure If the actual OP is serious lol, but I'll agree with this. There's to many crappy class skills around and all this essential stuff you have to level, how would a new or less experienced players even know? It's pretty natural to assume that class skills are good enough to complete group content lol.

The Healing Ritual trainee templar is a good example. We all meet him. He will wipe the entire group, when using a class heal that's suppose to save lives. Or Impulse/Walls being mandatory for magicka sorcerers, no way around since the class has 0 decent AoE. Don't know how many DK's I meet that couldn't dps properly because they did not level a ranged weapon skill line. I sort of blame ZoS a tiny bit for these things to.

But the main reason your average pug of plebs keeps failing, is the lack of dps. It's the source of most evil in ESO, while lack of skill or coordination is of lesser importance due to simple picnic mechanics. I mean bad stuff will happen when you need 10 minutes to kill a boss, even if you stand at the right spots, hit the right add and activate some clicky. Also why 90% of all instances are so damn easy trivial with a good group, you melt the boss in one ulti bomb nuke, literally run over the trash (or skip).

Jaerlach · February 2015

baratron wrote: »

There is something wrong when a V11 Sorcerer Healer, a V14 Dragonknight Tank, a V14 Dragonknight DPS and a V13 Nightblade DPS can't complete Veteran Spindleclutch scaled to V2. Especially considering this exact same group has got through all Lower Craglorn content easily, and has only struggled with the final boss in Shada's Tear.

Press the "LOL" button all you like, but this is the situation which tons of players are in. We've optimised our builds to the best of our abilities, taking advice from anyone with half a clue. We use equipment sets which are appropriate for the skills we wish to use and improved to purple or gold quality. We use blue or purple V5 food and quaff tri-potions. We are even reading the small number of FAQs which are out there for how to deal with particular bosses, and adjust our skill bars accordingly. And apparently we still suck.

And it's more frustrating than "elite" players can possibly believe.

It wouldn't be difficult for ZoS to introduce a "casual" mode so we could experience the content and the quests, and actually have a chance of finishing them. I don't mind if I don't get loot, I just want to be able to enjoy the story of each dungeon.

If I might ask, which fight did you struggle on?

Praxin is one of the harder fights in a veteran dungeon, but if you are doing it on v2 it should not be an issue as long as you manage the initial add phase well. The spiders can deal a boatload of damage that would be a real struggle for a sorc to heal through with healing springs. However, with good use of veils of blades, negate, and the various AOE mitigation skills available to your DKs (especially choking talons from your tank, and cinder storm from one or both of them), you should be able to mitigate the add waves enough for healing springs to do the job. Remember that all the mini-bosses in that fight can be CC'd, so negate is incredibly potent and probably best used to manage the 2nd add spawn (with all the healers in it).

If you were dying on bloodspawn, its probably just a DPS performance issue.

NukeAllTheThings · February 2015

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with a "casual" mode for these things. It would reward lower tiered loot and it would allow more people to try and complete it. It would also eliminate any need for "normal" and "hard" to be dumbed down. Personally, I like difficult and challenging content and having an easier "casual" mode doesn't affect me at all and it doesn't cheapen my experience at beating content at another level.

Plus, if you really want to test yourself then you can go and solo "casual" mode for craps and giggles.

Magdalina · February 2015

itsBishop wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

No, thanks. I'd like to do DSA and Sanctum, but can't because I'm a normal player (not elite) and can't even complete most Vet Dungeons, nevermind the Trials.

Need a casual mode for the majority of players so we can complete this content. And yes, obviously, weaker loot and XP.

I don't see any issue with having tuned-down versions of the trials/vet DSA that scale loot rewards accordingly to invite participation from a wider percentage of the population. It's fun content that everyone should be able to at least experience. Just don't nerf it to the ground in order to do so.

Without trying to be mean nor "elitist" in the least - isn't there already a casual mode of vDSA? Being called, well, normal DSA?
Same for dungeons...every vet dungeon has a non vet mode, which is perfectly casual. I'm all for helping casual players, I just really don't see your point right now.