Do you think that ESO is primarily an ES game or primarily an MMO? How does it affect your choices

KhajitFurTrader

newtinmpls wrote: »

I think that part of "fun" is the curve of anticiption-action-appreciation.

I think that some who were anticipating a more PvE focused game run into trouble and frustration when they encounter PvP heavy content - and vice versa.

So maybe another way to put my question is what mindset is most useful for you to enjoy the game (or a part of it) the most?

Wouldn't "open minded" always be the best mindset to do anything, then, in order to have the most fun?

Thinking back, my anticipation of ESO was based on "the hype", or "the buzz" that gaming companies are wont to create in the time before launch. I read interviews, reviews -- or rather re-iterations -- of available information, and of course, the game's website itself with all of its features (Ask us Anything, Developer Question of the Week, etc.). What I came to expect was "Elder Scrolls as MMO", and that I would be able to pick the activities I was most interested in -- I knew there would be a PvP part, but I also knew I could safely ignore it if I didn't want to participate (just as I did in WoW or LOTRO).

What I found when I first jumped into the beta was something new that I hadn't encountered before. This was Elder Scrolls (immersive and non-intrusive UI, story-driven questing, the Lore) for sure, but then again, it wasn't (there were other people in the delves and dungeons which I was exploring. The nerve of them!). This was an MMO (to wit, other people running around, some poor semblance of the Barrens Chat going on, a constant fight for resources, etc.), but then again, it wasn't (all the tropes and conventions that WoW had so carefully instilled in players over the years were missing). I was surprised - startled even - but also intrigued.

What I saw in beta was enough to leave me with a craving for the game's launch. Yes, despite all of the problems the game had in beta (and shortly after launch), because I was able to enjoy and appreciate the thing as a whole. I still do, to this day, and boy has the game come a long way since then. ESO never had it easy, because it's trying to sit between two chairs, which seem mutually exclusive. Just think about the extend and impact that player actions can have in a single player game engine vs. MMO engines, where phasing parts of, or even the whole of, the world needs to be able to scale with all players. "Neither fish nor fowl" is seldom meant as a compliment, but if something can't be both at once, it's a little bit unfair to measure it in either category alone.

Maybe thinking outside of given boxes or categories is needed to appreciate something new.

newtinmpls

"KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Wouldn't "open minded" always be the best mindset to do anything, then, in order to have the most fun?

Oh now you bring maturity into it? You rebel, you! <grin>

"KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

"Neither fish nor fowl" is seldom meant as a compliment, but if something can't be both at once, it's a little bit unfair to measure it in either category alone.

Maybe thinking outside of given boxes or categories is needed to appreciate something new.

That is a very good point. ... and a difficult knife-edge for a company to walk.

PKMN12

anyone expecting skyrim online, or expecting the freedom of a normal TES in general was delusional right from the start. anyone who knows about MMOs and what neeeds to be done to give balance so everyone can play knew EXACTLY what was going to happen. actually, honestly, the classes are TOO open, and we will probably never see a balanced game because of it.

This game blends enough (almost too much in some cases) TES with an MMO, and they probably did what thery thought was right to have both sides happy. the problem is, all the TES elements they DID have ruined the MMO side in many ways.

Betahkiin

It is a MMORPG based in the fantasy world of elder scrolls set in a timeline that gives independence from known historical events.

Currently lacks many of the things that define a elder scrolls game and the main reason is its adaptation to the field of MMO.

I think it is 70% MMORPG and 30% Elder Scrolls.

Tankqull

neither - they failed to deliver either...

Rune_Relic

ShadowDisciple wrote: »

Creating a single player TES game in an MO setting that is seamlessly intergrated and perfect in both aspects is IMPOSSIBLE...

Compromises needs to be taken, and that they did...IMO this game is MMORPG setin the world of TES....

But also for me, even if i play it as a single-player game its still good enough for me to enjoy it... some of the core features of ES series are here...not to an extent that it can be compared to oblivion or skyrim but at least a good amount of things...

That said, as an MMO this game is something that stands out from the rest of MMO's...

I played tons and this one is ONLY MMO that doesent have 10+ quest every 5 steps that wants you to kill 12 boars and collect 15 haunches of deer meat...but instead every "location" has a small quest line and an interssting story that end up with a mini boss fight which is awesome...its like you are playing and SP game in an MMO enviroment...

I personally think this is the best MMO out there even with its flaws which i dont mind

Its actually almost possible now.
They are starting to make sphere maps that are stitched together where only a few patches are loaded at a time.[with gravity offset for physics]
So in effect you can have a seamless endless world.
Its still in its infancy though.
As tech improves the scale and details can be increased along with the LOD.

Once that's common I see no reason why DLCs cant be whole worlds.
Sounds pretty awesome to me

sk8ingeckoub17_ESO

I would say this game is as much Elder Scrolls as anything else. Yes it does have a strong MMO feel to it as it is in the end a MMO but the lore, the feel of the zones, the world itself, seeing the daedra, how vampires work and look, just... there is far too many things if you let yourself get immersed in the world for it not to be overwhelmingly Elder Scrolls.

Even the combat which was changed to fit a MMO still feels overwhelmingly more Elder Scrolls than MMO itself. The fact I can only level my abilities when they are slotted, the reduced amount of abilities useable at a time, wheel roll to use consumables etc all give off that ES feel to me.

Betahkiin

Tankqull wrote: »

neither - they failed to deliver either...

Strictly speaking on a ideal world your assertions have logic, but.... which is a MMORPG? according to description and the examples available a day the date TESO fits perfectly because there is not have a single MMORPG that not have development problems or performance ones. As for the contribution of Elder Scrolls, this present, only that was adapted to a new environment.

Ffastyl

I entered the game a bit hesitant at what to expect. I have spent 4 years and 2000 hours playing Oblivion, 3 months and 330 hours on Skyrim, and some off and on playtime with RuneScape. I had experience with both MMORPGs and TESRPGs, and I was concerned ESO may lean too heavily away from lore.

My first memory is wandering Daggerfall for two hours after arriving, lost in the backstreets and no indication of the main gate. I was lost. It was fun.
But eventually I gained some orientation and found the main gate to Daggerfall: and I had my answer. Seeing the road wind into a green forest, wolves, imps and spriggans dotting the landscape, I knew:
This is an Elder Scrolls game.

And that feeling pervades my experience to this day. MMO aspects are present, and so are the MMO fans, but ESO is undeniably an Elder Scrolls game to me.

c.p.garrett1993_ESO

Elder Scrolls Online is an Elder Scrolls MMO.
It's exactly what it sounds like. It's not going to play the same as any previous ES title and it is very different from other MMOs, at least of those that I have played. It balances being both very well and if you walk in expecting 100% of one or the other you will be disappointed.
ESO is its own game and, while I understand it may not be for everyone, it has certainly proved to be a successful mix of a popular, single-player franchise and its polar opposite, an MMO.

gurluasb16_ESO

For me it's leaning to the ES side, and I'd like it to stay there.
I do not like modern MMOs.

newtinmpls

I really love the tangled streets. I'm finally sort of not getting completely lost in Windhelm. I have a terrible sense of direction in real life and game - I've been doing some blacksmith and enchanting writs there, and recently my husband just started doing them - it was so cool to be able to lead him to where he needed to go - I really felt like I was getting to know the world.

I'm glad that the NPCs I see make sense in terms of mostly nords in Windhelm - but I do miss the hissing insulting tone of the Ordinators (the ones in Mournhold were just a little too calm for me).

I disliked the combat at first - but that was because of the MMO nature of the beast - in a setting with other players I don't get to take all the time I like to plot my next move.

wilsonirayb16_ESO

In short, it's an MMO with TES elements and inspiration. It's not a TES game.

The main differences(and shortcomings of ESO) being:

• Abilities taking preference over 'white' damage attacks. The bread and butter of TES is manual activated combat from normal weapon strikes or normal magic casts - both of which are via the main/secondary attack setup.
  In ESO it favors heavily towards the ability 'hot bar' spam approach. White hits are more as fillers or fight openers for stuns. Beyond that they are useless.
  
• The Dodge system. Dodge is the new jump/bunny hop. It not only looks ridiculous, but it's also such a one dimensional and uninspired evasion mechanic. In TES games, you use side steps (and more advanced versions with mods). In ESO you just roll around on the floor like it's the new Die Hard film. Of which is only applicable to removing yourself from AE attacks. In the TES, it's an actual combat strategy to be used while fighting in the pocket.
  
• Shared dungeons that don't require any community interaction. It's one thing to make dungeons like old school EverQuest zones, where multiple groups would help each other break through to their respective camping/grinding spots(or destinations). However in ESO, general shared dungeons require nothing of the sort and therefore are wasted 75% of the time. You enter only to find every thing dead or finished. Nothing deflates an adventuring group more than this, and it's been just the same since BETA. I really thought before Live they'd reconsider and make these properly instanced - or at least allow the group leader to set dungeons as instanced or open, allowing you to choose private or public.

Ultimately, Skyrim with a net code, allowing fully cooperative game play for up to four or eight people, with a Borderlands type lobby matchmaking system(also found in Saints Row, Dying Light etc) -- that's what TES fans have wanted for ages.

All we can hope now is that whatever Zenimax learned about net code with ESO, will help them advise Bethesda how to implement that for TES VI.

wraith808

wilsonirayb16_ESO wrote: »

Shared dungeons that don't require any community interaction. It's one thing to make dungeons like old school EverQuest zones, where multiple groups would help each other break through to their respective camping/grinding spots(or destinations). However in ESO, general shared dungeons require nothing of the sort and therefore are wasted 75% of the time. You enter only to find every thing dead or finished. Nothing deflates an adventuring group more than this, and it's been just the same since BETA. I really thought before Live they'd reconsider and make these properly instanced - or at least allow the group leader to set dungeons as instanced or open, allowing you to choose private or public.

This is the second time I've heard this fallacy. Dungeons require a great deal of coordination, and veteran dungeons even more so. Delves don't. Delves were made that way specifically to encourage people to just run in and have a mini-experience with going into a minimally structured underground experience. They're two different minimally similar experiences, but for some reason, there have been posters comparing the two.

As far as your other two points, they aren't the main differentiation and have some inaccuracies in those statements also. But this was the main one I wanted to address.

Romo

OP should have done a poll instead of this continuous stream of arguments.

Of course a poll might have shown how far out of the main-stream of forum players he probably is.

newtinmpls

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

What I found when I first jumped into the beta was something new that I hadn't encountered before. This was Elder Scrolls (immersive and non-intrusive UI, story-driven questing, the Lore) for sure, but then again, it wasn't (there were other people in the delves and dungeons which I was exploring. The nerve of them!). This was an MMO (to wit, other people running around, some poor semblance of the Barrens Chat going on, a constant fight for resources, etc.), but then again, it wasn't (all the tropes and conventions that WoW had so carefully instilled in players over the years were missing). I was surprised - startled even - but also intrigued.

I know that some people expecting one or the other get distressed or shaken up by the ... straddling the line that ESO does, but I hope that most of them/us enjoy it.

In previous ES games I usually had more than one character (named goup of saves) going on at one time. Small aside - I understand that wasn't so possible in Skyrim, but I never played it. Oblivion (a bit) and Morrowind ( A LOT) - actually Morrowind is still loaded on my 'new' computer.

So I"m used to having multiple characters at various points along the main quest. The difference now is that my various characters get to interact with those various characters of my spouse ... and our friends ... and complete (and sometimes very intersting) total strangers. I really do like that.

newtinmpls

Yes, a thread necro.

Recently there have been many highly contentious (and sometimes edited) posts because of strong feelings about the upcoming DLC Imperial City.

My understanding is that the gist of the problem is a very different orientation/playstyle among PvEers and PvPers.

I'm wondering if that is somewhat of a parallel to the "ESO is an MMO" vs "ESO is a RPG/TES game".

I'm not saying either is right. I think there are profound differences in how people approach things which have (so far) not been addressed entirely successfully by the Devs. I do see potential.

So as an adjunct to my original question - I'm curious as to what people see as the "MMO" potential of IC vs what people see as the "RPG" potential.

CapnPhoton

It is both, hence the name, Elder scrolls online.

I am mainly here because it is Elder scrolls, then I enjoy the occasional online element of it.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO

ESO a typical modern MMORPG, that tries to be a lame version of ES!

newtinmpls

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO wrote: »

ESO a typical modern MMORPG, that tries to be a lame version of ES!

I am only here because it's an ES game; I've never played an MMO (and frankly never intend to other than this). What do you see as 'typical' about it?

david271749

It's an mmo with some Elder Scrolls music for ambience.

Sithisvoid

Falls short of both

RobDaCool

Most of the time? Neither.

Cernow

The fact that this question is even being asked / discussed speaks volumes.

Sausage

It was designed for both MMO and ES single player fans and by the look of it they decided to throw in PVP at some point too. Cyrodil definitely came later. This kind of stuff was answered way way back in Bethesda forums. Tamriel Foundry still might have the early interviews.

MsPtibiscuit

Neither I guess.
The game lacks freedom to be a real Elder Scrolls. The levelling is pretty linear, the quests, while voiced and with well written dialogues, generally have a similar: you find someone, you help someone, you realize he's doing something wrong, you go find him to kill him, he explains why he does that and then you must choose between thinking he was right and let him go, or think he was wrong and punish him.

During the levelling, the game is really solo-oriented (so not really multiplayer) and the game does everything to separate players, so they can all live the same story. There's no alternative paths/quests to let player live different stories.
The PvE endgame is mainly composed of instanced content (so not really massively), and while the PvP is cool, I think it lacks faction-specific elements and, in general, "Risk vs Reward" mechanics.

KanedaSyndrome

An MMO that thinks it's a single player game from time to time.

SC0TY999

It's more like, a jack of all trades and a master of none.

Duragon_Darko

For PC players it's an MMO.
For console players it's a single player TES game.

..... For PC players, they have years of raiding to look forward to.

...... For console, this game will die as soon as most get to vet or endgame without communication in the form of a text chat box.

MsPtibiscuit

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

An MMO that thinks it's a single player game from time to time.

Actually:

This is a good point to mention that a lot of the issues that Turbine experienced weren't unique to Turbine. For instance: after leaving Turbine the first time I went to Zenimax Online for a year. By this point (fall 2010) they had been 'developing' ESO for something like 4 or 5 years and had a projected launch date of spring of '12 (the idea being to follow up Skyrim with a big marketing campaign with WETA and then launch). But less than a year and a half from launch the game wasn't remotely near alpha state, despite having already consumed untold millions of dollars. To make a long story short, I was amazed they finished it at all. There was no hope of it being a great MMO regardless. As my friend, a ZOS producer (and a former Turbinite), commented, half the team seemed to think they were making a single player game, the other half, WoW. When you get 50 cooks in the kitchen trying to make one cake, if you get it done at all, be sure it isn't going to be a masterpiece. The days when you had one guy with a vision field generaling development (a Sid Meier, for example) started to go out the window when the industry got corporate. On another side note, I sometimes think money becomes somewhat unreal when you get into the tens of millions. An exec who will shout about being overcharged for an oil change can be strangely sanguine about a project that costs millions a month.

It comes from one old dev of LOTRO who shared his experience in the industry and in the development of LOTRO.