Sorcerer in 1.6.1

Merlin13KAGL

Seraphyel wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

The real issue is or was to give Templars a full tree dedicated on healing. That totally destroys the balance of the game.

Give every class the skills to be an equal healer or no class - but to give a class a tree full of great heals and to give the crap to the resto staff is just dumb.

WTF is up with sorcerors crying about templars in every thread?

I don't play a Sorc, I am just interested in the discussion. And to deny that Templars are ridiculously OP with 1.6... sorry.

aco5712 wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

The real issue is or was to give Templars a full tree dedicated on healing. That totally destroys the balance of the game.

Give every class the skills to be an equal healer or no class - but to give a class a tree full of great heals and to give the crap to the resto staff is just dumb.

Why would you complain about a templar (who is the "healer" of this game) having a tree dedicated to healing. It does not destroy the balance of the game as they have less options for CC/DPS. And honestly, with the nerf to mending, templars healing is alot worse.

Rune focus + ritual are pretty poor skills anyways.

That's the problem, there shouldn't be "the" healer of the game. That's the issue with it.

Ritual isn't a poor skill. But it doesn't matter, Ceremony outweighs every other heal out there. And it's a Templar skill.

@Seraphyel‌ ,gotta agree. They should have left it open ended (Choose your primary and secondary skills) and there would be every hybrid under the sun.

Classes restrict and archetype, they always have.

McDoogs wrote: »

Why do you need heals with hardened ward? I think these crybaby sorcerors need to L2P, because magicka sorcs are incredibly OP in PvP in 1.6.

Why do you need 30k hp in the first place? Why do you need a physical shield with 20k armor aside from it?

Kind of a dumb statement, assuming the (casted) shield never ever drops, and from what I can tell, it's not the Sorc's doing most of the crying.

Like saying "Why do you need regen?"

snipeopsub17_ESO

All they need to do is make shields a buff like they did everything else so they don't stack. For example if you have a major shield buff on and use another shield ability all it does is refresh the buff instead of stacking and base the shield buffs off of max health.

RoyJade

The only thing you have to do is chain-control them. If they can efficiently stack shield, they haven't any stamina, so after two or three cc-break, they are totally at your CC's mercy.
Try it, it's very easy to take down pure-defensively shield stacker.

Snit

RoyJade wrote: »

The only thing you have to do is chain-control them

Easier to complain on the forums until ZOS reacts with a nerf. Which will happen.

snipeopsub17_ESO

Kinda hard to chain CC someone who can teleport while shielded.

RoyJade

If they re-nerf control, yes, it will be a real problem. But actually, it's not ^^

Even if some problem actually remains, I love pvp in 1.6 : light armor user can protect themselves against damage and can deal a huge amount of damage, but they are vulnerable against controls. Medium armor user have a good defense/resistance and can do a good amount of damage, but they have to use their stamina wisely. Heavy armor user can take a lot of damage without any problem, but they can't do a lot of damage themselves. Each gameplay have relatively good strong and weakness.

Fayaburn

snipeopsub17_ESO wrote: »

Kinda hard to chain CC someone who can teleport while shielded.

Either the Sorc tries to fight and CC is effectively the counter to shield defense.
Either the Sorc tries to flea with TP and you can chase him with gap closers (which CC as well) or let him go away as he does not represent any kind of menace while escaping.

People in this game keep raging with on-the-spot reaction without trying to adapt for at least 5 seconds... That's sad.

xherics

So, in PvE, I have a problem to pull more than 8k dps without ultimate on single target, what is insanely small dps...

I tried so many variations of skills, but the sustainable DPS was all the time around 8k, almost with all combinations:
- structured entropy + 2 pets + curse for pet damage + CS&Mid-heavy + crystal fragments
- structured entropy + 1 pet + curse for pet damage + CS&Mid-heavy + crystal fragments + elemental drain
- structured entropy + curse with less time + CS&Mid-heavy + crystal fragments + elemental drain

And do not mention the totally annoying weapon change animation, when swapping barss, what sloves and drops the dps as hell...

The dps can be 12k for like a 30 seconds, but if the fight is longer, at the end it drops to 8k...

Maybe PvP is OK for sorc now, but PvE still sucks as I see.

With gear, I tried to have the max possible spell damage: 2170; max magicka: almost 30K; health 18k; with spell crit 43%. What do I do wrong? What do you think?

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ DKs already pulling 12k sustainable dps without the proper gear... so where is the truth?

Derra

xherics wrote: »

So, in PvE, I have a problem to pull more than 8k dps without ultimate on single target, what is insanely small dps...

I tried so many variations of skills, but the sustainable DPS was all the time around 8k, almost with all combinations:
- structured entropy + 2 pets + curse for pet damage + CS&Mid-heavy + crystal fragments
- structured entropy + 1 pet + curse for pet damage + CS&Mid-heavy + crystal fragments + elemental drain
- structured entropy + curse with less time + CS&Mid-heavy + crystal fragments + elemental drain

And do not mention the totally annoying weapon change animation, when swapping barss, what sloves and drops the dps as hell...

The dps can be 12k for like a 30 seconds, but if the fight is longer, at the end it drops to 8k...

Maybe PvP is OK for sorc now, but PvE still sucks as I see.

With gear, I tried to have the max possible spell damage: 2170; max magicka: almost 30K; health 18k; with spell crit 43%. What do I do wrong? What do you think?

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ DKs already pulling 12k sustainable dps without the proper gear... so where is the truth?

This is interesting. Sorc is largely fine in pvp atm. Who would have thought that pve paints such a different picture.

RoyJade

With my own test, I can barely have 8K dps too, same for my mates. With a template DK with exactly the same gear, I have 9K dps easily. With a stamina NB, one of my guildmate reach 13k dps without ultimate…
Sorcerer is actually fine and fun in pvp, but in pve they are pretty useless actually.
There is only one tool for a good magical dps sorcerer actually : the electric ultimate (overcharge or something like this in english ?). But we can't keep it from a long time. If we can rotate between light attack, crystal shard and a good capacity who can proc the shard, our dps should be correct with an infinite overcharge.
Boost the sorcerer in pve without boosting it in pvp should be hard. Perhaps with some boost to useless move in pvp ?

xherics

The best DPS I had with 2 pets, BUT:
- pets still dies very fast and they have long cast time
- they uses 4 skill positions on the skill bar (2+2), because they are toggle skills

With the other mentioned skill, I had almost never 8k DPS. This is like 800 dps on the live server, where I was able to pull on single target 1,1-1,2k dps.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

Nightreaver

Snit wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

For comparison, my sorc's average HPS is about 40% of DPS on 1.5.7. ZoS needs to fix this before sorcs just give up and re-roll...

PLEASE get rid of the cooldown that NO ONE asked for!

Thanks for testing this. I was planning to do so, as well. I was afraid that any cooldown makes Crit Surge quite weak. If you AoE, all the hits are simultaneous. So it doesn't matter if the cooldown is 1 second, .5 seconds or .001.

It's not just AOEs that are affected.
1) That Crushing Shock that people are complaining about consists of 3 simultaneous attacks so you will never proc the heal from more than one essentially reducing the heals to 1/3 of what you would expect.
2) If your ST attack procs an affliction such as burning and that affliction crit procs the heal then the main damage from your ST will be unable to proc the heal.

So unless/until the CD is removed completely I really don't see it worth taking up a slot on our bars.
Overall however I like the feel of the new 1.6 Sorcerer. It has more of that glass-cannon feel I would expect to see in a Sorcerer. I can still take down groups of VR13 in Upper Craglorn but now have to actually pay attention whereas on Live I just stroll through the groups without a second thought or concern.

Derra

xherics wrote: »

The best DPS I had with 2 pets, BUT:
- pets still dies very fast and they have long cast time
- they uses 4 skill positions on the skill bar (2+2), because they are toggle skills

With the other mentioned skill, I had almost never 8k DPS. This is like 800 dps on the live server, where I was able to pull on single target 1,1-1,2k dps.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

What sets have you been using so far?

Can you tell me a location where i can test DPS for more than 20s? -.-

xherics

Derra wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

The best DPS I had with 2 pets, BUT:
- pets still dies very fast and they have long cast time
- they uses 4 skill positions on the skill bar (2+2), because they are toggle skills

With the other mentioned skill, I had almost never 8k DPS. This is like 800 dps on the live server, where I was able to pull on single target 1,1-1,2k dps.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

What sets have you been using so far?

Can you tell me a location where i can test DPS for more than 20s? -.-

Used sets, which gave in 2-3 set bonuses magicka and spell damage.
Take a tank with you, go to SO, skip the first trash and test the dps on the alone conjurer, or go inside to a Burial site In Craglorn and try there on a boss.

But if you want dps test for more time, go with tank and healer to Spindleclutch gargoyle boss - do the dps only alone, until the boss kills you with rocks (last phase).

ArcanusMagus

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I like how most of the positive Sorc comments mention the damage shield... yeah... and with all the people complaining about that it might be nerfed. I have a good build on my Sorc right now, can't test it due to NA characters being unavailable, but I will when they come back.

Are Sorcs harder to play now without a Resto staff? Yes. Is it impossible? No, as long as we can have our damage shield... which for me is Hardened Ward. The only problem I have ever had with Sorcs is that we rely on other skill lines more than any other class. Maybe that's good... where other classes can't fit certain skills on a bar, we can.

Still a lot of testing to do, we'll see. I just wouldn't rely on your damage shields, make a backup plan for your build in case they get nerfed.

Being able to fit more cash into my wallet wouldn't make not having cash desirable.

Tanis-Stormbinder

When 1.6 dropped I was able to get 10k with 5pc Marshal Knowledge, 4pc Healer and 2pc Torug’s Pact sets. Not sure after 1.6.1 as I dont have access to my main.

Derra

xherics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

The best DPS I had with 2 pets, BUT:
- pets still dies very fast and they have long cast time
- they uses 4 skill positions on the skill bar (2+2), because they are toggle skills

With the other mentioned skill, I had almost never 8k DPS. This is like 800 dps on the live server, where I was able to pull on single target 1,1-1,2k dps.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

What sets have you been using so far?

Can you tell me a location where i can test DPS for more than 20s? -.-

Used sets, which gave in 2-3 set bonuses magicka and spell damage.
Take a tank with you, go to SO, skip the first trash and test the dps on the alone conjurer, or go inside to a Burial site In Craglorn and try there on a boss.

But if you want dps test for more time, go with tank and healer to Spindleclutch gargoyle boss - do the dps only alone, until the boss kills you with rocks (last phase).

I´m getting ~9.2k dps on one of the seekers archive bosses (384k hp). Still 25% behind the dk numbers. Can´t think of a way to get that higher too.

Edit: I´m stupid. With hardcasted CF i´m getting 10k dps barely. 2 pets inner light 40k magica 1700 spellpower.

Edit2: This is without ultimate. Atronarch might up that number.
I have no idea if that would be sustainable in longer fights sadly .

OtarTheMad

ArcanusMagus wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I like how most of the positive Sorc comments mention the damage shield... yeah... and with all the people complaining about that it might be nerfed. I have a good build on my Sorc right now, can't test it due to NA characters being unavailable, but I will when they come back.

Are Sorcs harder to play now without a Resto staff? Yes. Is it impossible? No, as long as we can have our damage shield... which for me is Hardened Ward. The only problem I have ever had with Sorcs is that we rely on other skill lines more than any other class. Maybe that's good... where other classes can't fit certain skills on a bar, we can.

Still a lot of testing to do, we'll see. I just wouldn't rely on your damage shields, make a backup plan for your build in case they get nerfed.

Being able to fit more cash into my wallet wouldn't make not having cash desirable.

Nice to see you still play man.

Fayaburn

Derra wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

xherics wrote: »

The best DPS I had with 2 pets, BUT:
- pets still dies very fast and they have long cast time
- they uses 4 skill positions on the skill bar (2+2), because they are toggle skills

With the other mentioned skill, I had almost never 8k DPS. This is like 800 dps on the live server, where I was able to pull on single target 1,1-1,2k dps.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌

What sets have you been using so far?

Can you tell me a location where i can test DPS for more than 20s? -.-

Used sets, which gave in 2-3 set bonuses magicka and spell damage.
Take a tank with you, go to SO, skip the first trash and test the dps on the alone conjurer, or go inside to a Burial site In Craglorn and try there on a boss.

But if you want dps test for more time, go with tank and healer to Spindleclutch gargoyle boss - do the dps only alone, until the boss kills you with rocks (last phase).

I´m getting ~9.2k dps on one of the seekers archive bosses (384k hp). Still 25% behind the dk numbers. Can´t think of a way to get that higher too.

Edit: I´m stupid. With hardcasted CF i´m getting 10k dps barely. 2 pets inner light 40k magica 1700 spellpower.

Edit2: This is without ultimate. Atronarch might up that number.
I have no idea if that would be sustainable in longer fights sadly .

Would you mind describing itemization please?

xherics

Derra wrote: »

I´m getting ~9.2k dps on one of the seekers archive bosses (384k hp). Still 25% behind the dk numbers. Can´t think of a way to get that higher too.

Edit: I´m stupid. With hardcasted CF i´m getting 10k dps barely. 2 pets inner light 40k magica 1700 spellpower.

Edit2: This is without ultimate. Atronarch might up that number.
I have no idea if that would be sustainable in longer fights sadly .

Basicly, for 40k magicka you have 5x Necropotence gear and seducer or Healer.
While Necropotence is STURDY only... WHAT? Are you serious? Sturdy?

Inner light = 2 skill slots used on the bar.
2x pets = 4 skill slots used on the bar.
To have the pets alive, you need the shield, which create a shield on you and on pets and grant them more damage. So, 7th skill slot on the bar.
Basicly, you can still use Crushing Shock and te Curse for more pet damage. 8th and 9th skill slot used; and the last skill slot is the Sorcery buff ->> Crit surge or the mages guild one.

On first skill bar, you have 2 skill slots, in which the Curse and Crushing shock is mandatory - no other skills are allowed.
Secondary bar: Shield and major sorcery - spell damage buff.

To apply the major sorcery buff, for sure, you need to change the skill bar, what is laggy and so so many times it just does not change, what is again a huge DPS lost. And the same is applicable for the shield, for pet dps buff.. And WHERE is there a place for the execution spell?

So, at the end, you will have no more DPS than mentioned before... I do not think so, that I am messing up the skill rotation or do it not correctly.. and still, no proper numbers...

And after somebody reads these lines, for sure, he would ask these questions:

What will you do when you need AOE and do not have time to change skills or you can not, because you are still in combat? How should we use the Evil Hunter - undead buff - to do more dps on daedra if no slot available for use?
Or God, please do not ask the sorc to have off heal on secondary bar in case of *** happens (Healing springs + Combat prayer)...

These are the real problems of sorcerers in PvE.

We may do 10k DPS with only and ONE build, but still not sustainable for LONG fights like Trials bosses.
Only one build, which is so stupid build, because can not use any other skills. No AOE, no off heal, and still, THIS IS NOT GOOD DPS in comparison to other classes.

This means, sorc is still extremely weak in PvE; and after the negate nerf, sorc will be still not wanted/necessary in PvE.


Sorcerer is for me a definition of the highest level of magician, what does not mean pets, but pure magic, pure spells.
Pure magic from the heart, through the blood, to the last hairbreadth...
Sorcerer means the highest magic killer with pure magic, not the weakest grandmamma's pet farm.

But not, in ESO the sorc have to use 2 pets and make a shield on them to survive and do one more skill, what is still not enough... Why?

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌ This is my HODOR opinion regarding sorcerers.

@Fecius‌ Do you agree?

Derra

I agree 100% @xherics. Sorcerers need a vaible non pet dependant dps spec. However the dps might be competetive if you figure in the use of ultimates.
Edit: Weapon swap is horrible on pts and a huge dps loss. I could manage to make it more reliable with using switch to bar1/2 instead of normal weapon switch.
Edit2: You could use the unstable familar for AOE in the build BUT it comes at the cost of singletarget dps. The familar does around 50% of the Clannfears dmg (you loose around 400 dps).

@Fayaburn: I´ve been using 5x Necropotence 4x Healer 2x Torugs Pact. All Points into Magica. Mage Mundus.

Bar1: Daedric Prey, Fragments, 3 toggles (Magelight twilight clannfear)
Bar2: Entropy, Empowered ward, 3 toggles

Rotation was: Hardened ward, entropy, every 20s ; daedric prey every 6s ; Hardcast Crystal Fragments (it does more dmg than crushing shock for me) with weaved light attacks).

If you manage to keep pets alive during an encounter this spec with overload or atronarch would reach around 11 to 12k dps? Need to try it on a dungeon boss for longer fights.

Exstazik

4 martial knowledge+2 adroitness+2 Cyrodil light+3 torug's pact

Snit

Derra wrote: »

...3 toggles...

This may be the spec with the highest possible DPS, and the least imaginable fun. Ugh. I hope we're not pushed into this.

Derra

Snit wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

...3 toggles...

This may be the spec with the highest possible DPS, and the least imaginable fun. Ugh. I hope we're not pushed into this.

Its absolutely horrible to play. I could come up with something different with a masters staff. would only use 2 toggles then. LOL!

Fayaburn

@‌Derra
If no changes are made to either Light armor or monster's damage, I'm not sure I would take the risk not to run with a 5L/2H armor setup.

Father

I don't get it...crystal frag hits like a truck. Overload got buffed it hits for 3-5k on my 20k res nb volitile familiar explodes for 10k thats almost half hp of most players in cyro.
Hardend ward scales of magicka so here ya go 100% dmg shield.
Not enough?
Right now sorc is tankier than dks and in a way better spot.
Just sit down and plan somthing before crying..its pts and not final if there is a reason for a cry it would be stamina sorcs relying on 1 class skill wih their 2 bars.

Fayaburn

Father wrote: »

I don't get it...crystal frag hits like a truck. Overload got buffed it hits for 3-5k on my 20k res nb volitile familiar explodes for 10k thats almost half hp of most players in cyro.
Hardend ward scales of magicka so here ya go 100% dmg shield.
Not enough?
Right now sorc is tankier than dks and in a way better spot.
Just sit down and plan somthing before crying..its pts and not final if there is a reason for a cry it would be stamina sorcs relying on 1 class skill wih their 2 bars.

Oh yeah. I always forget that Tamriel only consists of the Cyrodiil zone. My bad.

Father

Ahhhh u cry about PVE ?? my bad -_-
dunno about pve tbh ,havnt teamed with one and my sorc is stamina spec
Viable in pve still but crappy in pvp since i got zero utility from my class since i use stamina :<

Gyudan

Derra wrote: »

@Fayaburn: I´ve been using 5x Necropotence 4x Healer 2x Torugs Pact. All Points into Magica. Mage Mundus.

Did you use the same setup to test DPS without relying on pets or something closer to this?

Exstazik wrote: »

4 martial knowledge+2 adroitness+2 Cyrodil light+3 torug's pact

Faulgor

xherics wrote: »

Sorcerer is for me a definition of the highest level of magician, what does not mean pets, but pure magic, pure spells.
Pure magic from the heart, through the blood, to the last hairbreadth...
Sorcerer means the highest magic killer with pure magic, not the weakest grandmamma's pet farm.

But not, in ESO the sorc have to use 2 pets and make a shield on them to survive and do one more skill, what is still not enough... Why?

Traditionally, Sorcerers in TES are heavily armored mages that rely on conjuration and a mix of all other schools of magic.

Morrowind: Though spellcasters by vocation, sorcerers rely most on summonings and enchantments. They are greedy for magic scrolls, rings, armor and weapons, and commanding undead and Daedric servants gratifies their egos. (Attributes: Intelligence, Endurance)

Oblivion: Besting the most well-equipped fighters, they rely on the spells of the mystic arts. Unique to these mages is the bodily stamina to be armed with the thickest armor. (Attributes: Intelligence, Endurance)

That TES Sorcerers are conceptually a bit different from the classic RPG mage is not the problem imo. The summoning tree, as well as armor skills like bound armor, lightning armor and ward fit their archetype. The problem is that pets are incredibly hard to implement to satisfaction - either too dumb or too smart, useless or an I-win-button - and that there are not a lot of alternatives without using weapon abilities. Although, except for Surge, the Stormcalling tree is in a decent place at the moment.

Personally, I think the Dark Magic tree is simply underdeveloped. Crystal Fragments is a must have, and Dark Exchange has some utility for resource management, but that's it. Is anyone making significant use of Encase and Rune Prison? Never seen it. I'd rather see these abilites replaced with something useful.
There could also be some passives that go along with Sorcerers' supposed affinity for enchantments - why not something like NBs' reworked Catalyst, that grants ultimate each time an enchantment procs? Or a buff that adds spell power to enchantment magnitude? Anything that allows for more build diversity outside of shieldstacking + petswarm.