champions system is a timesink not funny at all

washlov

it has no fun
it's a time sink only good for farmers 24/7 players simply nobody needs this
a nice idea but badly done
what do you think? anything worthy there?
the time for this would be better invested in real content
a good trading system, spellcrafting, pvp content, duels,
new colors for your armor .........

Soulshine

Like all MMOs, this one has timesinks in it. The CP system most definitely being its lastest. The reality is that without timesinks, companies tend to lack sufficient revenue coming into their games from the players engaged in completing said timesinks to produce the other content you mention. It is just the way that most MMOs work, especially ones that do not require subs - which is what this game will be as of March 2015.

That being said, I am not trying to defending the manner in which the implementation or the content of the CP system was handled. There are many things about it I do not like and think are quite poor. But unfortunately (or otherwise for those who really like it...) it is what we now have for this game.

It's up to you to decide if this is a progression system you want to be a part of or not in order to keep enjoying ESO. Not much more to say about it when all is said and done.

Gidorick

As I see it the Champion System secures the next... oh... 10 years of grinding. If anybody complains of there not being anything to do they can always be told:

"Go get more Champion Points."

This takes care of those gamers that RUSH RUSH RUSH to finish all the content in the game so they can scream and holler "WE NEED MOAR!!!!". Guys got to VR14 so fast it probably made ZOS' head spin!

Now that those guys are taken care of for the foreseeable future, ZOS can work on ACTUAL content!

Hopefully.

KhajitFurTrader

Time-sinks are the very nature of MMOs. If you don't like a particular way how time can or has to be killed, look if you can find other ways that are more fun to you. As long as you're having fun, it's not wasted time.

That being said, I'm perfectly fine with what and how the CP system is going to be. It's not an end in itself. To me, it's something that will happen en passant, while I keep on pursueing my own goals in this gorgeous game.

Joejudas

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Time-sinks are the very nature of MMOs. If you don't like a particular way how time can or has to be killed, look if you can find other ways that are more fun to you. As long as you're having fun, it's not wasted time.

That being said, I'm perfectly fine with what and how the CP system is going to be. It's not an end in itself. To me, it's something that will happen en passant, while I keep on pursueing my own goals in this gorgeous game.

But your not going to gain not a single cp point in anything under a week with just going through the ropes. The exp isn't balanced on the PTS. I wish all the people saying " we will literally marry 1.6 it's the greatest " when they haven't been on and tested it.

Iyas

yeah youre right

Hawk269

It is going the there regardless. What ideas do you have OP to make it better, since it is here to stay but can something be altered to make it a bit better? From what I have read it takes 400,000 xp for one CP point, would 300,000 or 200,000 be better? I am certain that is something they can adjust if there is a good balance.

Bars

@ Hawk not when u are selling XP booster in cash shop

Jando

1. Each point is too expensive (in xp)

2. Each point is too weak in what it offers

3. There are too many points in total.

3. 1, 2, and 3, above, make the proposed system an endless, meaningless grind

4. There is no way for many Veteran players to participate in the system because they have exhausted much of the quest content that grants the chunks of xp needed to advance in the system.

5. 4, above, means that the conversion of VR level to Champion points is fundamentally flawed because it fails to consider completed quest content.

6. To solve 5, above, there needs to be a significant grant of additional Champion Points to players based on the quest content they have completed.

Dreamo84

I think the mistake is looking at the Champion system as something that you need to focus on it's own as a piece of content.

This system just sets the stage for long term progression and won't feel like a grind when new DLC comes out.

I think the Champ system is big enough and long enough that the majority of players won't feel like it's something they constantly have to think about. Yeah there will be some hardcore players trying to max it as fast as they can. But do you really see yourself saying "I'm gonna go grind champ points today"?

At first people will be more aware of it, but eventually it will just kinda float to the back of your mind and you'll randomly notice you earned a champ point while you were doing other things.

THAT is the point of the system. Diablo 3 has a very similar system with Paragon Levels and it works exactly like that. At first I was actively looking to gain levels but eventually you stop focusing.

Dreamo84

Hawk269 wrote: »

It is going the there regardless. What ideas do you have OP to make it better, since it is here to stay but can something be altered to make it a bit better? From what I have read it takes 400,000 xp for one CP point, would 300,000 or 200,000 be better? I am certain that is something they can adjust if there is a good balance.

I personally think the required EXP should go up as you earn more points. This makes it feel more rewarding early on but eventually it slows down that you don't focus on it like you did in the beginning.

Joejudas

Dreamo84 wrote: »

I think the mistake is looking at the Champion system as something that you need to focus on it's own as a piece of content.

This system just sets the stage for long term progression and won't feel like a grind when new DLC comes out.

I think the Champ system is big enough and long enough that the majority of players won't feel like it's something they constantly have to think about. Yeah there will be some hardcore players trying to max it as fast as they can. But do you really see yourself saying "I'm gonna go grind champ points today"?

At first people will be more aware of it, but eventually it will just kinda float to the back of your mind and you'll randomly notice you earned a champ point while you were doing other things.

THAT is the point of the system. Diablo 3 has a very similar system with Paragon Levels and it works exactly like that. At first I was actively looking to gain levels but eventually you stop focusing.

Not when they are earned at such a small rate and when it's in combo with nerfs on stats and gear. It feels crappy

Soulshine

Dreamo84 wrote: »

Hawk269 wrote: »

It is going the there regardless. What ideas do you have OP to make it better, since it is here to stay but can something be altered to make it a bit better? From what I have read it takes 400,000 xp for one CP point, would 300,000 or 200,000 be better? I am certain that is something they can adjust if there is a good balance.

I personally think the required EXP should go up as you earn more points. This makes it feel more rewarding early on but eventually it slows down that you don't focus on it like you did in the beginning.

Please note that the system already includes diminishing returns, so to ask that they increase the amount of XP required to earn higher tier perks is not going to go over very well....

KhajitFurTrader

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

1. Each point is too expensive (in xp)

2. Each point is too weak in what it offers

3. There are too many points in total.

3. 1, 2, and 3, above, make the proposed system an endless, meaningless grind

What's so hard about understanding that a horizontal advancement system isn't primarily intended to be grinded? It's there to provide long-term motivation besides everything else that's going to be there.

All level-based MMOs lose a healthy dose of player motivation when maximum level is reached on a character. The progress of advancing and gaining power within the vertical leveling system grinds to a sudden halt. Adding more vertical levels to a game isn't as easy as incrementing a variable MAX_LEVEL in the code, there needs to be content for the new levels to be meaningful in. Building this can be very expensive in terms of developer time.

Enter the horizontal advancement systems. Where in the vertical system, the difference in power between one level and the next was relatively large, in the horizontal system it is minuscule, as is intended. Small, slow, but steady improvements in a very broad field of character abilities provide long-term goals and thus motivation. A horizontal system which can be "finished" in the span of weeks or months isn't worth the time it takes to implement.

Besides, the CP system won't be the sole path of character advancement there's going to be:

• There has been talk about seasonal gear. As in other games, gear can provide a strong, short-term incentive to gain more "power".
• There will be DLCs containing new dungeons, trials, regions, etc.
• New systems and skill lines like the Justice system, the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood will provide content that goes beyond "simple" quests. Think GTA, where being the good or bad guy entirely lies in your hands.

All of these will provide ample XP on the drive-by. CPs will almost happen coincidentally while being busy doing other, more interesting stuff. It is not, nor will it ever be, an end in itself.

Wolfsspinne

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

1. Each point is too expensive (in xp)

2. Each point is too weak in what it offers

3. There are too many points in total.

3. 1, 2, and 3, above, make the proposed system an endless, meaningless grind

4. There is no way for many Veteran players to participate in the system because they have exhausted much of the quest content that grants the chunks of xp needed to advance in the system.

5. 4, above, means that the conversion of VR level to Champion points is fundamentally flawed because it fails to consider completed quest content.

6. To solve 5, above, there needs to be a significant grant of additional Champion Points to players based on the quest content they have completed.

You are not meant to get all CPs.
You are not meant to grind them either.

CP are there to maintain the feeling of an RPG.
It's all about getting rid of max level!

Of course you will never reach max level in a system that offers constant progress.
But guess what... so does everyone else.
And with nobody able to reach max level there is nothing to complain about*.


(*Except for unbalanced XP yields, which in fact already existed before 1.6)

Muizer

Joejudas wrote: »

Dreamo84 wrote: »

I think the mistake is looking at the Champion system as something that you need to focus on it's own as a piece of content.

This system just sets the stage for long term progression and won't feel like a grind when new DLC comes out.

I think the Champ system is big enough and long enough that the majority of players won't feel like it's something they constantly have to think about. Yeah there will be some hardcore players trying to max it as fast as they can. But do you really see yourself saying "I'm gonna go grind champ points today"?

At first people will be more aware of it, but eventually it will just kinda float to the back of your mind and you'll randomly notice you earned a champ point while you were doing other things.

THAT is the point of the system. Diablo 3 has a very similar system with Paragon Levels and it works exactly like that. At first I was actively looking to gain levels but eventually you stop focusing.

Not when they are earned at such a small rate and when it's in combo with nerfs on stats and gear. It feels crappy

Hmm, still I think the point @Dreamo84 is trying to make is worthy of consideration. In general, I think people will always be dissatisfied if they cling to 1.5 as their frame of reference.

In this case, the old system gave you the idea that there was an end point to work towards. It's quite obvious the intent of 1.6 is to try to make people leave that concept behind. If you keep thinking "but I was nearly there!" and "now I have to do a lot of grinding to reach the same level", you're not going to be happy in this game.

Robotukas

washlov wrote: »

it has no fun
it's a time sink only good for farmers 24/7 players simply nobody needs this
a nice idea but badly done
what do you think? anything worthy there?
the time for this would be better invested in real content
a good trading system, spellcrafting, pvp content, duels,
new colors for your armor .........

I don't think that here is time sink. Do you want end game where you don't get useful reward all the time. But if you look from another side, if you play game so you get rewarded all the time. So this is DEV team idea. Enjoy game and get rewarded all the time.

Another thing. When you play game MMO or not MMO it all the time time sink, so is no mater if you have champion system or not, but you still have timesink .

TheShadowScout

Some people will hate the champion system, because all their grinding will not get them much to show for it. Others will like it, because then they can do all the things they find fun in ESO, AND also get a little something for all those expees too!
I am certainly going to love it.

Of course, the actual rate of ChP gain can be argued and adjusted. Maybe 400K XP per ChP is a bit lofty a mark. If enough people think so during this PTS run, it might get changed. If enough people think so when it goes live, it might still get changed someday later, not like it hasn't happened before with V levels...
On the other hand... between pledges, Cyrodil dailies, dungeons, grinding, cadwells silver/gold on your alts, future DLC and PvP... I expect it won't be too hard to rack up ChP. As long as you remember the way is the goal in this system...

Jando

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

It's there to provide long-term motivation besides everything else that's going to be there.

I understand your point. I just disagree.

The problem is that there is just not enough overall power offered by the system to maintain motivation over the long-term. No one is going be excited nor care when they get a champion point that gives them .2 percent of anything when those points are offered at the equivalent of 2.5 points per veteran rank. At best, that's 2% bonus per the equivalent of a veteran rank.....whoopteedooo. And that's best case scenario for the first level...it gets WAY worse after that, sometimes being as bad as .4% of a stat per a veteran rank's worth of XP. It's just boring. And in my opinion does NOT offer long term motivation as you suggest.


The reason, why they can't beef up the system is because then it will cause too much player separation over the long term.

The only way the Champion System will be even mildly entertaining/engaging will be if they reduce the number of points, and increase the rate in which they are doled out. We don't need a system that will be meaningless and last forever. I would MUCH prefer something that is shorter (roughly the same time it would take to level from vr1-14) than something that is designed to be spread across over 1,000 VR ranks (as the current implementation was).

Other end-game content, and gear progression would be the long-term motivation after the player becomes a full "Champion."

Turelus

I see the system as additional rewards for doing what I already did and had fun doing. If the goal of a player is to simply grind champion points and not play areas of the game they're having fun in, then I would dare say they might be doing it wrong.

Find areas of the game you enjoy playing, keep playing them, enjoy a bonus reward every now and then.

KhajitFurTrader

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

The problem is that there is just not enough overall power offered by the system to maintain motivation over the long-term. No one is going be excited nor care when they get a champion point that gives them .2 percent of anything when those points are offered at the equivalent of 2.5 points per veteran rank. At best, that's 2% bonus per the equivalent of a veteran rank.....whoopteedooo. And that's best case scenario for the first level...it gets WAY worse after that, sometimes being as bad as .4% of a stat per a veteran rank's worth of XP. It's just boring. And in my opinion does NOT offer long term motivation as you suggest.

It's meant to be a bonus on top of everything else you're going to get from gear. No one should expect to max out their stats or whatever from the CP system alone. It's called "perk" for a reason. And it does indeed provide the best long-term motivation there is, because investments will start to pay off only after a long-time.

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

The reason, why they can't beef up the system is because then it will cause too much player separation over the long term.

You've got it right! The difference in relative power levels between someone who invested next to nothing compared with someone who has maxed out nearly everything in the CP system must not be too big. This is because, as I mentioned above, the system is not intended to be a vertical system. The relative power levels you get from gear, skill points, etc. need to stay being more meaningful than what the CP system ever gives you. Otherwise, it wouldn't provide "perks" no longer and fail its intended design.

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

The only way the Champion System will be even mildly entertaining/engaging will be if they reduce the number of points, and increase the rate in which they are doled out. We don't need a system that will be meaningless and last forever. I would MUCH prefer something that is shorter (roughly the same time it would take to level from vr1-14) than something that is designed to be spread across over 1,000 VR ranks (as the current implementation was).

Other end-game content, and gear progression would be the long-term motivation after the player becomes a full "Champion."

I think you got it backwards there. The very point of an alternative advancement system is to be almost, but not absolutely, meaningless, and to last almost, but not absolutely, forever.

rawne1980b16_ESO

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood will provide content that goes beyond "simple" quests. Think GTA, where being the good or bad guy entirely lies in your hands.

Do you have a source for that?

KhajitFurTrader

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood will provide content that goes beyond "simple" quests. Think GTA, where being the good or bad guy entirely lies in your hands.

Do you have a source for that?

Go and play on the PTS. It's entirely up to you what kind of bounty you get on your head. TG and DB will provide context to the JS, just like they did in the other TES games.

Joejudas

im going to reiterate a couple of things:

All end game raid gear we spent hundreds...yes hundreds of hours trying to get are useless now. Night Mothers has more value now.

All stats took a nerf. Dont let the big numbers fool you.

With the ult gain change and my skill changes make dps a joke.

You can only gain 1 cp every 4 hours unenlightened by grinding mobs...trust me i have tried other ways and it takes too long...like days to get one.

This new system hurts the higher level player players the most because they were wearing the end game armor that got nerfed the most.

Taking away my character progression and calling it re-balancing for the sake of other people is disgusting...was my money not as green the last 10 months or my time not as good.

Stop calling this horizontal progression and vertical progression because its not providing me or anyone else with a vr6+ any progression...its implementation is taking it away.

Telling those of us that are upset that we need to give it a chance and its good for the community need to understand that we have tried this on the pts and we are warning you that if the people who normally put in the most time are complaining its taking to long to get a cp...do you think when this game goes b2p the casuals will stick around ?

Also vr ranks havent even gone away with this nerfing...the other show will drop when vr goes away with 1.7 and im sure some new massive nerfs will come down and it will be the same show over again.

Im so very tired of people telling me to shut up and deal with it. Why have i wasted my time the last 10 months and wasted my money. So i can have all my progress and gear ruined. Does anyone else truly feel thats ok ? If you had a dollar you worked for and someone took it and gave you back 99 pennies...you wouldn't be upset ?

If all the end game gear stays ruined and they dont tweak the cp system to let us gain them faster this games population will have an exodus.

kimboh

There's a lot I really like about the system but i agree some of the perks are pretty useless (2% movement speed anyone?) and the Xp cost per point is probably too high.

Maybe they knew people would complain about the Xp cost no matter how much it was, so they set it high to start with then they can reduce it a bit as 'response to feedback'

Joejudas

no they set it high so they could sell people xp boosts for money a month after 1.6 drops

Sharee

Joejudas wrote: »

But your not going to gain not a single cp point in anything under a week with just going through the ropes.

I have a template NB on PTS right now that i am playing, just killing mobs to level abilities so i can see the morphs. I am about to get my second champion point. I'd say you can expect to get one champion point each day/day and half just from normal gameplay.

reften

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

Time-sinks are the very nature of MMOs. If you don't like a particular way how time can or has to be killed, look if you can find other ways that are more fun to you. As long as you're having fun, it's not wasted time.

That being said, I'm perfectly fine with what and how the CP system is going to be. It's not an end in itself. To me, it's something that will happen en passant, while I keep on pursueing my own goals in this gorgeous game.

Perfectly said...I just wish pvp'ing would level CPs as fast as PvE

TheShadowScout

oren74 wrote: »

Perfectly said...I just wish pvp'ing would level CPs as fast as PvE

Now that is something worth asking about. Though perhaps in a way that not only rewards the really good players (through lots of kills), but everyone else too (through time spent PvPing)?

NewBlacksmurf

I felt exactly the same about the VR system. It's funny that this entire extended leveling concept wasn't removed 6 months ago.

In short...anyone who is level 50 should be able to play effectively and equally with other level 50's.

If Zenimax wants to provide additional rewards to ppl who want to level past 50...do so in a way that doesn't hurt balance.

I'm back but quit after getting to 50 only to realize I had to level more.
I'm glad it's now account based but people are still segregated until the npc's levels are dropped to level 50.

There are many different things to add link enabling a npc to be hired, work towards better armor, weapons and consumables.

When they announced that the expansions will not expand the level of characters and scale to existing characters....I don't know where/how this is going to succeed long term.

Instead of setting content to be limited to group encounters, they add in more levels. To me, may level should be 65...problem solved

Dreamo84

I think it's weird that Vet ranks are still in. Especially if 1.6 is the version consoles are getting at launch. Just seems odd they are going to launch on consoles with a system in place that's basically just leftover and destined to be removed soon as they get around to it.